17 Kilos of Cocaine - [GAME OVER]

[Wickedestjr]

Hey everybody!

Luckily, I had been following this game already, so I am pretty close to caught up. I see the deadline is in a few days so I'll try to do something soon.

[Wickedestjr]

Oh we were in AP's Game Shop Mafia together. All I remember from that game was 100 pages of pisskop vs. mollie.

[Wickedestjr]

Today was very busy, I thought I would get a chance to post. Should be free after my interview tomorrow morning.

[Wickedestjr]

Today was very busy, I thought I would get a chance to post. Should be free after my interview tomorrow morning.

[Wickedestjr]

I just became free about an hour ago and now I'm fully caught up again. @Anyone- Let me know if there's anything specific that you'd like me to address. I'm working on some posts now.

[Wickedestjr]

Okay here are my reads. Right now I feel pretty comfortable town reading: {Bins, Bulbazak, Desperado, Spiffeh}

Bins-

She's the leading wagon right now, but I haven't seen any good reason for that. Her voting everyone that has attacked her was a good observation, but doesn't necessarily seem like a scum tell. That whole point boils down to OMGUS (correct me if I'm wrong), which I generally read as townish if anything. Several of her posts felt townish, including the soft claim, but the group of people on her wagon doesn't give me warm fuzzy feelings.

Bulbazak-

I'm generally cautious when reading players who are good at scum (I've heard people compliment his scum game a couple times). But I still feel comfortable with this. His play kinda reminds me of my last game with him - I believe that was Inorganic? - where I was also able to correctly townread him. There have been a few instances where I remember seeing posts/comments from him that seemed uncalculated and townish. For example, in his conversation with Desperado it seems like he wasn't really paying attention. I feel like scumBulbazak would have his ducks in a row more and not have made that mistake. Iirc, that wasn't the first time he made a mistake of that nature.

Desperado-

Mostly a gut read. I don't think scumDesperado would choose to have no reads for so long. Everything that he's said so far feels genuine or town-motivated. He also very much doesn't strike me as someone trying to blend in, even though he was quiet in the beginning.

Spiffeh-

I remember really liking a few of his observations earlier on. He's probably capable of making those observations as scum, but my gut says that he's also genuinely relaxed and not really trying to 'look good'.


I am unsure about: {Cephrir, chesskid3, Firebringer, Ginngie, grapes, hitogoroshi, Kagami, WhemeStar, xRECKONERx}. Will need to do some rereading for them.

Cephrir

- He's someone I've been going back and forth on. Some posts I like, some posts I don't like. More on him later.

chesskid3

- I don't see why people are town reading him. Something just feels off to me. I need to look at some of his other games.

Firebringer

- He's been the most active player which is usually a good sign. But beyond that, I can't remember noticing anything telling from him.

Ginngie

- On the fence for her too. It feels like she genuinely believes in her Bins vote, which is good. But I actually shared Bins' sentiment that some of her posts felt forced. And I'm not scum. She is a big question mark for me.

grapes

- I like his current vote. Besides that, I haven't really seen anything especially interesting either way. He could be scum trying hard.

hitogoroshi

- Haven't seen anything particularly alarming or townish. I think he's capable of everything that he's done so far as scum.

Kagami

- No comment.

WhemeStar

- I remember getting town vibes from some of his posts earlier on like 127/129 and 190. Having said that, I wouldn't write him off as a 'newb' given that he's been playing for eight months and has a lot of posts. Haven't seen anything from him recently that has made me feel good about him. Need to see more.

xRECKONERx

- No comment.


Only a few noteworthy scum leans. I would prefer to lynch one of the following players: {ActionDan, Ellibereth, xyzzy}

ActionDan

- He is someone that I think is trying to appear townish. Also, I keep forgetting he's in the game. Don't like how he's flying under the radar despite posting regularly.

Ellibereth

- There are some posts from him that rub me the wrong way. In particular, I didn't like his vote for Desperado - it feels forced. Also, I remember his exchange with WhemeStar 265/267 being weird, not sure what that could mean though.

xyzzy

- It felt like he was interested in the cocaine mechanic more than scum hunting. I'm honestly not reading anything into his theory posts specifically, but I do think his vote for Firebringer is pretty bad. If he's town, then I hope he recovers in time to contribute something before day's end.

Vote: xyzzy

[Wickedestjr]

It's too late for this to be a townie entrance

He had time for 6 whining I can't post posts but no time for obvreads despite reading

You should reread. I actually only made one 'whining' post and it was at 1 am last night. I could have thrown out some reads last night, but that's just not my style.

[Wickedestjr]

Hey everybody!

Luckily, I had been following this game already, so I am pretty close to caught up. I see the deadline is in a few days so I'll try to do something soon.

long time no see wicked

Thanks Desp

[Wickedestjr]

Mod:

I voted xyzzy. Too much bold in my post, I'll avoid that next time!

[Wickedestjr]

It is clear that there are a lot of people who are unfamiliar with my play style. I'll do the meta work for you all using my two most recent town games. Hopefully this is followed by some un-votes.

Wickjestr catchup is horrible btw

This game with so many solidly justice players and you have 4 townreads and they're mostly gut? Nah man.

See this:

Spoiler: this

I don't think I can support a Suzune lynch anymore.

FA can be town, I like Radiant's meta point.
Hinduragi and Reck both seemed townish.
My gut/past experience says that Red is town here.
Suzune has seemed pretty genuine the last few days.
TheDominator has been incredibly useless, but I can't see him playing that way as cult. I could support a lynch on him as punishment for his poor effort (if he's cult, I don't want to let him get away with doing nothing) but my gun to head read is town.

That leaves Radiant, who I haven't seen anything alignment indicative from, and ika, who has bothered me for reasons that I've already given.

If it's not ika, then I'm going to

Unvote. Vote: RadiantCowbells

.

This was my entire rational behind voting a player 20+ pages into an eight player game. I'm very much a feel player. I don't believe that people commonly make blatant errors and my gut has just worked out better for me in the past. Case in point RadiantCowbells was the scum in that game. You'll see the quote I'm giving Kagami also illustrates this aspect of my play style.

Why on earth did you list players alphabetically within groups, jestr?

Why not? Does it really matter who's 11th as opposed to 12th on my scum list? Alphabetical is just what I felt like doing. I broke it up into three categories, I voted the person that I suspect the most, and I've already provided more of my thoughts than several players in this game. Here:

Spoiler: Check out this

DiamondSentinel - leaning town.
Klingoncelt - neutral. Agree that her reads list was bad, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's scum.
ErrantParabola - neutral. Unlikely that I'll develop a read on him before his post restriction is removed.
The Cool Cucumbers - neutral.
Drunken Pirates - slight town lean. I disagree with a lot of what they've been saying in-thread, but that doesn't mean they are scum, they at least seem to genuinely believe what they're saying
Yimmy - neutral.
Drixx - neutral.
Rylai and Lina - leaning town. Rylai's play early on felt off for some reason but I feel good about her after reading the last 20 pages or so, haven't seen anything particularly telling from Lina
Skybird - slight town lean. Gut.
Albert B. Rampage - strong town.
CooLDoG - slight town lean.
DrippingGoofball - neutral.
MaxwellPuckett - slight town lean. Some of his posts in the first 20 pages or so gave me town vibes - I quoted them. Looking forward to seeing more from him.
Yosarian2 - neutral. I'm honestly not sure why so many people are strong town reading him, because he's probably capable of everything that he's done here if he's scum. I agree with a lot of the opinions that he has given and kinda liked his reaction to Drixx's "I'll give you the rings when you town-tell". But he's still somebody that I'm cautious in reading.
Lowkey - strong town.
Fluminator - neutral. The desire for hammers seems like a null tell, I think anyone trying to paint that as scummy needs to rethink it. The "not miller" claim is a slight town tell if anything and I think anyone trying to paint that as scummy needs to rethink it. He might be town just because of his poorly justified bandwagon, but I'm not sure yet. I've correctly strong town read him in the past and it bothers me a little bit that I'm not reaching that same conclusion yet. Looking forward to seeing more from him too.
Sensei - slight town lean. I agree that his comment regarding the DP links might be a town slip. Haven't seen anything else particularly telling from him.
ZZZX - strong town. Almost entirely based on gut/meta that I'd struggle to articulate. He seems convincingly relaxed - doesn't feel like he's trying to earn town credit.
ArcAngel9 - scummy. She felt weirdly confident in her Flum vote. She's kinda flown under the radar (even when she was posting) and I haven't seen much from her to indicate genuine interest in scum hunting.

That was 60+ pages into a game. Chesskid notice that I only have three strong town reads in that post. Kagami notice that the reads list is ordered by playerlist. It's very similar to the reads list that I posted in this thread in that you can't see every position, I just didn't sort the players by category. When I'm playing a game with players that I'm either unfamiliar with or haven't played with in a long time (I've been on hiatus for a year and a half ish), then it takes me time to figure out reads. I'm not going to bother sorting every single position because it's day 1, it's completely unnecessary, and I had half a dozen people breathing down my neck to produce content.

More specifically, it's a little weird how little stock he puts in his townreads town and scum reads. Of course, someone being town doesn't mean they're right, but usually in practice it's at least kind of correlated that you think someone is town based on their reads. But he's got bulbas scum read in town, bulbas town reads in neutral, Bins top scum read in neutral (she's on Elli now but was really vs Ginngie at time of posting)...I guess Spiffeh's reads are stale and despes reads never existed so really it's mostly just Bulba that caught my eye here.

Here's a very relevant comment of mine from my last town game:

Spoiler: Comment of mine

you have no reason to think that I'm easily manipulated. For what it's worth, I'm actually a very independent player - I almost never hydra, never vote someone just because I'm told to (barring deadline), and reach most of my conclusions on my own.

I have had to explain that in multiple games and if you looked at my town meta, you'd probably see that I'm oftentimes not following the crowd. I'm the only person that I know is town, so I follow my own instincts. And when I'm reading other players' arguments, my town read on them has no influence on whether I am convinced by the argument or not. I determine if the argument is valid based on the argument itself. I believe that Bulbazak is town and I believe that he is a smart player, but I don't agree with all his reads. If his reads are more accurate than mine, then he can convince me of that by making a case that convinces me, not just by virtue of looking like town.

[Wickedestjr]

I really don't like giving xyzzy a free pass here. He has given one scum read, one town read, and he has yet to justify his current vote. I'll switch to Elli if nobody is interested in pressuring him, but he needs to do more.

[Wickedestjr]

Oh. I guess he's actually getting as much pressure as everyone else, thanks to Dan. Forgot that he and FB were voting with me.

[Wickedestjr]

I have OCD

[Wickedestjr]

There's a pretty big difference between playerorder and alphabetical.

The former means that you copy and pasted the list in the OP, and used that to be sure you didn't miss anyone. The latter means that you copy and pasted the playerlist, then deliberately rearranged the list of players in a way that is objectively systematic after placing them into bins, which doesn't have any obvious motivation beyond the desire to eliminate any order-based interpretation.

See this one: viewtopic.php?p=7462736#p7462736

Alphabetical. Three categories. I was town.

[Wickedestjr]

Kigami why are you voting me if not for my 'ordering' ?

[Wickedestjr]

Oh Elli wants me on

estjr

.

That's a new one lol

Also, I can't tell if the "thanks to Dan" comment is serious or just a cute way of saying that I haven't said anything townish.

[Wickedestjr]

Best. Game. Everrrrrrr.

[Wickedestjr]

I didn't see a reason for town-wicked not to lay out some thoughts about the game since he had been keeping up anyway. Scum-wicked would also want to post immediately, but it's possible that his reads while following along were sufficiently on point that it would be damaging to post them carelessly.

The only reason I replaced in when I did is because I didn't want someone to beat me to it (like Katsuki did). I was busy for most of the day until I made my "whining" post at 1 am with an interview the next day. At that time, I simply just didn't care about providing thoughts. Notice that my first contribution was a pretty big post that I couldn't have made even with all the time I spent 'whining'.

I don't really care much for the readslist. It doesn't seem terribly deep, despite being somewhat against the grain. I didn't like that it seemed heavily influenced by recent events, in contrast to what I'd expect from someone who had followed along.

First of all, I literally gave examples of similar reads lists that I have given as town. This is just a criticism of my play style - is it hard to believe that I don't play the game how you do? I didn't take notes (because I was following along before I thought about replacing in) and I didn't do hardly any rereading because there wasn't any time - the deadline is near and people were getting impatient with me. So yes, my reads were heavily influenced by the more recent posts that stuck out in my mind because of recency. In general, I also don't think the first 10 pages of any mafia game are very telling. And I wouldn't lie about reading the whole thread, if that's what you're implying.

I didn't really notice the bulb thing that hito mentioned at the time, but I think it's a fair point in retrospect.

I explained this...

And PoE.

The best reason that you've given, even if the conclusion is still wrong.

[Wickedestjr]

That whole point boils down to OMGUS (correct me if I'm wrong), which I generally read as townish if anything.

That's not why I'm scumreading her.

Didn't say it was. I was talking about Ginngie.

Several of her posts felt townish, including the soft claim

How did that feel town to you?

I just don't see why she would do that as scum. Seems like something that would attract unwanted attention. I would expect Bins-town to do that if she actually has a special role of some kind. Usually I don't see scum set up fake claims as early on as she softed, before she was even getting any heat iirc.

I was in Organic, not Inorganic. I decided I didn't want to slog through the sequel. I think I've played with you since, but I don't know which game it was. If I remember correctly from Organic, you did something similar, where I thought your reads came across as fake, and I ended up being wrong.

Oh it was Mafiaception. If you think I am town, then I would appreciate your help on this. Because people are ignoring the fact that I have a clear play style difference, even after I gave clear examples, and you are the only one here that has experienced misreading me.

Xyzzy is a good vote, but if you can't get that, would you be opposed to voting Bins?

I would vote Bins only to save myself or to avoid a no-lynch.

[Wickedestjr]

This is really frustrating. People want to lynch me so bad based on one post. I've literally shown that that post is just my nature. You guys know how meta works, right? If I have been shown doing something as town in a previous game then that means it's not a scum tell now. Does it not bother anybody that so many people think I am scum but nobody is even interested in questioning me? One post was enough to decide you all just want to get rid of me?

If I had known that you guys were expecting a masterpiece for my catchup, then I could have taken the time to do some rereading but I wouldn't have contributed before day's end.

[Wickedestjr]

Maybe it's just me that thinks scum are more likely to have 8 nullreads and write out a sentence for all of them.
And then give a wallpost of self-meta.

I'll admit I'm more familiar with my own play style than I am with the events of this game. Defending myself is also more important than figuring out who's scum with one day left.

[Wickedestjr]

I don't have any doubt that she has a PR. I just didn't think it was town. I'm thinking custom PRs this game, so I don't think we'll be seeing too many fake claims.

Okay I actually hadn't considered that. Fair point.

I don't have a solid read on you, atm.

I do know that this is inside your norm as town, so I'm not reading any of this replace in nonsense as scummy.

I just need to see more. However, I do like the Xyzzy read, and you're not my preferred lynch for today.

This is what people are ignoring.

[Wickedestjr]

I also want to make it clear: I'm not saying you guys should be town reading me because of me showing that this is my play style. Because I would probably also be playing close to this way as scum. I'm just making it clear that you're voting me for something that is not a tell.

Rob13 made a very good mafia discussion post about meta here which illustrates exactly what I am talking about. This post was inspired by an argument I was having with two highly regarded players in another game. I think it's a big misconception that people might have about using meta.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm voting xyzzy but I would also still be interested in voting Elli and Dan. Bulbazak, how do you feel about Elli? Besides me, he might have the most support.

[Wickedestjr]

Okay. Fwiw, I really don't want to have to claim today. But I probably will have to very soon if things don't improve.

Unvote. Vote: Ellibereth

WhemeStar, you should join us

[Wickedestjr]

The meta provided in Wick's 904 actually works against him imo

In the games he cited his catchup reads are a lot less wordy and seem much less concerned with attaching reasoning to EVERY SINGLE READ, whereas in the catchup he posted here he provides over justification for almost all of his null reads which just reads as trying to meet the expectations of people waiting for his catch up

Different circumstances. It was my first post in this game, so I hadn't commented on anything yet - I just had a lot more thoughts to type up. Note that I didn't feel obligated to comment on

everyone

. I just remembered thoughts I had had about most people. In the Saga game, my reads list came on page 60ish. By that point, I had had opportunities to comment on events already plus I was burnt out because that game was moving at an insane speed. It was taking all my energy just to stay caught up; I replaced out of that game.

I also agree with Kagami's point about Wick being overly eager to provide meta to explain away people's problems with his catchup

Eh don't remember Kagami saying that but w/ever. Why is that a bad thing?

[Wickedestjr]

This post is heavily implying everyone pushing Wicked is town. You don't get frustrated by scum pushing a wagon on you, because they are just doing their job. But Wicked doesn't seem to be even considering the possibility he's being run up by scum.

My post was directed at town, because I know that there are town on my bandwagon. Scum don't have any motivation to un-vote me, so why would I appeal to them?

Smells a whole awful lot like "caught for the 'wrong' reasons".

This is something people say when they realize their point is wrong but want to justify keeping their vote. Don't like this. You're town confbiasing or scum.

I guess technically speaking this is another "meta" thing, but I seriously can't imagine anyone who posts something like 991 if they're sitting on a pocket ace.

Hint: Risk of getting lynched isn't the only reason why people get frustrated about votes. Hypothetically, even someone with a pocket ace doesn't like poorly justified bandwagons.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm an Even-Night Vig.

That's why I'm frustrated hito. I would have liked to keep that a secret. And, actually, even now that I've claimed that, I'm probably still going to get lynched because I can't prove it for a long while.

Thanks everyone

[Wickedestjr]

Flavor?

My character is a street musician named Gustavo "Off-key" Lopez.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked, have you ever sent a PM to the moderator asking questions about your role (or been forwarded questions UT asked)?

Nope

[Wickedestjr]

Fwiw, if there's not a mafia RB or doc, then I could potentially prove that my claim is true. By lynching me today, you're basically saying you don't want to even try proving that I'm a vig because my shot might not work. Well what if my shot does work?

[Wickedestjr]

bye

[Wickedestjr]

Oh sorry. I'm okay with releasing it