Micro 981 | Chain of Command 2004 Camry Edition | Game Over!

[Uncrowned]

hot take????? dostin is aligned with the town.

Explain.

i think datisi is town here. he's insanely nervous/anxious as scum from my knowledge and he seems much more relaxed

is it normal to be this tryhard on page 1?
VOTE: tgp

Why do you single out TGP for "tryharding" P1 but not Datisi?

Should we just have the PL discussion now about bugsy so it doesn't come up later?

This is gross.

[Uncrowned]

Let's start here.

VOTE: Dostin

Tonally awkward and over-explainy on P1. Content with being TLed with actually delving into why someone would think that after only a couple of posts.

[Uncrowned]

Let's start here.

VOTE: Dostin

Tonally awkward and over-explainy on P1. Content with being TLed with actually delving into why someone would think that after only a couple of posts.

i feel like this read while it's rationed out correctly and you seem town for it, is wrong because of reasons i may not talk about

Okay, talk to me about it in general terms though, without being too specific. Is it just something they usually do? Like a playstyle habit?

[Uncrowned]

Hiyo, here if you have any questions

-RM

This feels weird.

[Uncrowned]

@TGP

Second Question: Why was my post townie to you?

[Uncrowned]

In post 36, bugspray wrote:
In post 22, TheGoldenParadox wrote:
i think datisi is town here. he's insanely nervous/anxious as scum from my knowledge and he seems much more relaxed

is it normal to be this tryhard on page 1?
VOTE: tgp

Why do you single out TGP for "tryharding" P1 but not Datisi?

Mind answering this, Bug?

[Uncrowned]

@Datisi

Pretty sure that can come from either alignment. People can make logical posts and then make mistakes. I get how you might see it that way from a... tonal basis, I guess? Either way, my vote sticks.

Are you expecting something from Ico here btw? I think Post 81 is slight +town

[Uncrowned]

@Datisi

Tone was the wrong word to use. I think I linked tone and general behavior too tightly, where I think that Dostin post you're TLing him off of is more the latter than the former.

As for the Ico post, I think it's a reasonable early game assumption for a town to make that I believe would be more probable to come from Town than Scum. While having an over-the-top reaction to a minor push isn't ultimately telling on an alignment, I do think it's a small thing that scum wouldn't bother to push on.

[Uncrowned]

Is there something particular about the way Ico is playing that is making you uneasy?

[Uncrowned]

This is frustrated town here imo.

Datisi's post about the "shitpush" was valid and I agreed it was +scum for Kookie but this interaction seems TvT.

IAmAUsername's vote is pretty believable, I think. The reasoning is surface level but we are early game. However I don't believe Kookie was pushing for the PL. It seemed more like an attempt at actual discussion even if it was kinda gross.

[Uncrowned]

I am.

[Uncrowned]

TGP do you think Datisi isn't all that capable of changing his behavior when he is scum? Since that seems to be what you're basing your TR on?

[Uncrowned]

I do have TGP meta but I am not allowed to mention it right now.

They are kinda null at this point imo. The posting and conclusions "make sense" and I'm not getting scumpings from them, but they are handing out TRs that I think are a little unwarranted OR have questionable reasoning behind them. But that is a matter of opinion.

I do feel like laying out a Bugs/Kookie team is a bit too... easy? Bugs especially feels like LHF. Either way though, I'll need more from TGP before I can make a confident read. Gut tells me most likely town at this point though.

[Uncrowned]

tgp is a they for future reference btw

[Uncrowned]

As I said, Datisi's response feels like a townie who is annoyed they're getting pushed for bad reasons. Your following posts on him are what lead me to believe this is TvT more than a potential TvS.

Datisi could you answer me about why you're uneasy on Ico?

[Uncrowned]

The only people I've played with in completed games prior are Datisi and Ico, but they were a while ago. Late last year-ish. Both were town in those games.

Ico was pretty aggressive and didn't mind get into conflicts. Datisi was pretty calculated and very oriented toward asking questions from what I remember.

What I gather from this is that I'd expect Ico to be a bit more... fired up I guess by Datisi's prodding. It's too weak of a point to use as real reasoning though, especially as the "meta" is like 10 months old.

[Uncrowned]

Datisi could you answer me about why you're uneasy on Ico?

i'm not uneasy about ico. he's currently as null as it gets. i'm just annoyed because in a couple of recent games, i (correctly) townread him very early, and i'd have liked if i got a read on him early again. sometimes it just doesn't happen.

Ah okay I get you. I misinterpreted.

Unrelated: What do you think the likelihood that Kookie is town but just made a poor read? I ask because I think I might be a bit biased towards the semi-AtE like posts they've made in terms of feeling condescended and how hard they're coming at you. Like I'm not sure scum doubles down on this push so aggressively, especially if you're town? I feel like scum would worry about how bad the push looks and try to appease you. Does that make sense or am I overcomplicating things?

Dostin casing of Datisi/Bugs teaming is a real stretch to the point where it doesn't feel organic in the slightest.

[Uncrowned]

Oh and by the way the "overblown reaction" to being voted or scumread thing is super overrated as a scumtell imo and for most players I'd argue is NAI. I wouldn't put too much stake in it outside of newbie games tbh

[Uncrowned]

Hellooooooooo! VOTE: Datisi for always reading me wrong >:(

-Kookie

Can you be more specific about how Datisi was being lazy? I looked at his posts prior to the "Idk" response and there was some effort there FMPOV?

Also, the "Idk" reply was in response to a Bugspray question that... didn't really seem like a legitimate question to need to put effort into answering anyway?

Reasoning feels weak.

[Uncrowned]

That quote wasn't meant to be there

[Uncrowned]

Hey Dats talk to me about the Dostin wagon when you can

[Uncrowned]

i think datisi is town here. he's insanely nervous/anxious as scum from my knowledge and he seems much more relaxed

TGP do you think Datisi isn't all that capable of changing his behavior when he is scum? Since that seems to be what you're basing your TR on?

I'm townreading dats on play, but I townread scum!him on play pretty solidly so i don't think I can rely too much on that. I think that the level of panic and agitation he displayed as scum was genuine, especially considering it was a notes pt, and it isn't something that he can turn around that quickly.

What do you think/how do you feel about these posts on Datisi, Kookie?

[Uncrowned]

Oh, I meant more why you feel icky about it but that works too since I assume the Bugs vote is what caused it.

[Uncrowned]

Full disclosure I have zero confidence in reading Bugs atm that playstyle is not one I think I can decipher at this point in my "skill level" lmao

FWIW I didn't love the E-1 there either. The speed of the wagon generally leads me to believe it's town-driven tho

In your experience do you think scum!bugs would prefer to E-1 there or do you think they'd just wait for the chance to lolhammer?

[Uncrowned]

...what would I ask you, exactly?

My SR on you is on your scummy P1 tone and your reach on Bugs/Datisi.

"Why don't you want to ask me anything" is such a weird thing to say.

You didn't even acknowledge my vote until now that your wagon has picked up? When it was just me voting you you ignored it entirely?

Dostin is scum.

[Uncrowned]

So FMPOV, scum!dostin sees towncrowned vote him early, for an admittedly minor reason. He feels no pressure. TGP and Datisi townlean him so he's feeling good and doesn't feel the need to respond.

Feeling comfortable, he makes that bad read on Datisi/Bugs.

He gets called out for it. Gets to E-1. NOW all of a sudden it's "unfair" that I'm voting you? Now you feel the need to reply, because you're on the chopping block?

Yeah. This is scum. We can wait for Ico/Ari to get back from. V/LA for more info/perspective but this is the flip we're making today.

[Uncrowned]

Actually Dostin, here's a question.

Explain why TGP or Ico could be scum? Interesting how you go after two of the less active players and provide absolutely no reasoning whatsoever.

[Uncrowned]

I didn't even realize how out of place and unfounded those reads were until Bugs brought it up lmao

[Uncrowned]

Dats can you gimme the rundown on why Bugs is scum here?

[Uncrowned]

300 & 309 are compelling. Bugs' interaction with the Dostin wagon especially would make me believe that there is only 1 scum between them.

I still lean toward Dostin being more likely than Bugs though. The whole reaction to my push seems fake. I don't know what town player would ignore a vote on them and then only feel the need to reply once their wagon has picked up.

Couple that with the weak reads without any backing behind them... and the fact they're on two slots who have barely posted? Makes it hard for me to believe that he's not scum.

[Uncrowned]

talk to me about ico?

[Uncrowned]

Why are you talking about this hypothetically? In this game, coming from Datisi, is it NAI? Do you agree that it was an overblown reaction? Why or why not?

If I make a comment like that generally and then don't elaborate further with my opinion, safe to say I agree with the general statement. That is to say, no, I don't think the reaction is NAI. This is a bit of a useless question imo.

If you really want to know the "why" it's because I try not to value emotion too much in my reads on people. Town frustration can definitely be a thing and I will use it here and there, but I think Datisi is good enough to use it as scum IF he wants to. However, because the initial push by Kookie was quite bad (something I've already stated) it's also not a huge surprise to me that Datisi reacted in that manner.

In terms of probability FMPOV, neither is much more likely than the other, hence it being NAI.

[Uncrowned]

Why are you asking me what kind of questions you should ask? Aren't you the one voting me? I can't tell you what reasons you have for voting me and I can't tell you what parts of it don't quite add up to you but I don't know why you hadn't talked to me at that point to try and make sure your vote was right.

You're still not talking to me here? Who are you talking to? You're just telling a made up story without even doing anything to try and make sure you can prove it. You're also not even giving me a chance to allow other to read me. By asking me questions you can make sure you're right and you can make other people see for themself that you are right or wrong. This angle doesn't make any sense if you are town and actually think I might be a mafia. You're twisting what actually happened by saying the "Feeling comfortable" part because I was answering a direct question I didn't randomly decide to theorize about Datisi/bugs on my own.

I've already given you my reasons, and you're just saying they're "made-up" and "don't make any sense" without actually telling me why town!you would:

1: Ignoring my vote on you.

2: Making a stretch case on Dats/Bugs while Kookie was being pressured - which FTR I believe is +Equity between you two.

3: Only deciding to interact with me once your wagon reached high pressure.

What exactly do you mean by "prove it" ??? This is Mafia. I can't "prove" anything until I see you flip. Unless I'm an investigative role with results on you, or there's conf!town with a result on you, there will never be a 100% chance that you are or aren't Mafia. This applies to any game on this site. I am going off of probabilities, and I can't imagine your behavior coming from a town who is actually trying to solve the game. You look like a scum who tried to avoid pressure and then shat themselves horribly when they realized that their wagon was picking up.

What was there to talk about with you when I first voted, would you say? I voted you for your awkward P1 entrance and posting style. I then followed that up with pushing on you later on in the game for specific reasons which... you still haven't really answered outside of "this is unfair" and "it doesn't make sense" which isn't much of anything at all.

I don't NEED to ask you anything. If I'm going to make a push because I have a read on you, I'm going to force the issue. If we sat around here asking 21 questions every time we had a read on someone, we'd get talked out of it 99 times out of 100 because then you get into paranoia and a game of "ahh shit they're posting really well now under pressure but I thought they started scummy" or things of that nature.

Even now your posting is shallow. You're trying to shade and discredit without actually pointing out what is wrong with the case.

[Uncrowned]

Can you explain this? How does it look like one town and one scum if you don't even know who is who? This is just like Uncrowned talking about hypothetical situations while we are in a game with real things happening. What about my history with Uncrowned looks like I am scum and he is town? What about it looks like he is scum and I am town?

Interactions are arguably the biggest part of this game. They're what can solidify (or weaken) reads and are crucial to later in the game when you need to figure out who the scum-team is.

I don't like this whole "hypothetical" thing you've got going on because when you're playing a game where you don't have any information, EVERYTHING is going to be a hypothetical until it is proven one way or the other.

It's such a weird way to discredit people. It's like me saying to you right now "B-But Dostin... you're making a guess that I'm twisting the story right now! How do you know it's 100% true?" and trying to shut you down by saying that, because it can't be proven right away, it's false? What kind of thinking is that? How is that going to work in a game where there are no certainties outside of investigative results?

How come it's fine for you to discredit Datisi or me by saying stuff is hypothetical, but it's unfair when we say that your casing of Bugs/Dats didn't seem quite right?

[Uncrowned]

TGP made some weird posts at the start about me and Datisi. They looked like they knew too much for town player on the first page of the game. When they disagreed with Uncrowned's vote for me, they made it sound like there was a big secret reason for it but the reason doesn't make sense to me and it doesn't seem as important as when they first hinted about it.

Ico looked kind of awkward at first and looked like they tripped over themselves a bit, but now I don't know why I thought Ico looked like maybe mafia.

The TGP part is a good pickup actually.

[Uncrowned]

Datisi is probably +town there for the paranoia on me, I'd imagine.

[Uncrowned]

Dostin why haven't you voted yet?

[Uncrowned]

I'm not actually sure what we're arguing here. You came at bugs really early for my liking. It's why you're technically closer to the bottom of my reads list than the top.

Here I'll do one:

Town->scum
Uncrown
User
Ari
Ico
Tgp
Dostin
Dats
Bugs

my question is how is ari 3rd top town honestly

Ari is closest to true neutral here.

This read list is concerning.

You're telling me you only have two TLs?

[Uncrowned]

@Datisi

I don't really get your point about active posting? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding it? You're saying scum are fine without posting but are part of the active posters?

[Uncrowned]

Ico can you give me something on anyone other than Bugs?

[Uncrowned]

Also who are we classifying as an active poster? Everyone from me upwards (Uncrowned, Ico, Bugs, Kookie, Datisi)?

[Uncrowned]

That's reasonable, Ico.

I'm coming around to the idea of Scum!Bugs based on their interaction with the Dostin wagon. Provided the latter is town, I think there has to be one scum in the following 3 people who all voted on the same page to put him to E-1. Those people were User, Datisi and Bugs, in that order. Out of them, Bugs currently looks the worst.

Follow this with the whole post with the qualifier "If Dostin is town, then this could be scum!datisi being opportunistic" and it just looks like a scummy way to set up a "trajectory" on Datisi on a flip they know will be green.

This leads me to believe that there is only one scum between Dostin and Bugs.

What makes me hesitant on Bugs is that they are currently being SRed by almost everyone. This is LHF... but I don't want to fall into that trap of not eliminating there just because of that.

If Bugs flips scum, I think that the next scum is within Datisi/Kookie since both of them are trying to implicate the other as the partner. That might be bad logic. I don't know. It feels right to me though. I'm pretty sure a Bugs red flip also clears Dostin.

If Dostin flips scum, I'll have to look back at who that implicates, but I'm pretty sure it's TGP? Not 100% on that. A red flip on Dostin also most likely clears User.

[Uncrowned]

Okay Datisi, I kind of see where you're coming from.

Who do you think was dropping the game though? You, Kookie and myself were posting relatively consistently. TGP hasn't done a lot and hasn't really needed to given the lack of pressure on that slot. Dostin I feel fits into this category of dropping the game to an extent. Bugs I'm not sure of.

[Uncrowned]

I think this is more beneficial given slot interactions atm.

VOTE: Bugspray

[Uncrowned]

I am convinced there is scum between Dostin and Bugs and the above post is pretty much confirming that idea for me.

[Uncrowned]

I have a strong TR on Datisi and although no one agrees with it, it's staying.

Uhh... I'm pretty sure I've said I'm at least TLing Datisi?

Provided I do think one of you or him are scum if Bugs is scum.

Outside of User I'm not sure there's anyone I'm TRing more than him?

[Uncrowned]

Bugs where are you at on Dostin right now?

[Uncrowned]

I have a strong TR on Datisi and although no one agrees with it, it's staying.

Yeah uh, I meant to say SR

Oh, confused you with the other head. My bad.

[Uncrowned]

Why do you say this is a useless question? Do you mean it's a useless question for me to ask you because it won't tell me anything about you? Or do you think it's useless because it won't tell me about Datisi? Are you giving me advice on playing the game well? Defending yourself? I am very curious about that part of your post.

I meant useless question because the answer was already there for you to see.

And uhh... no? I don't think I was trying to do either of those things? I just explained why the interaction came off as NAI to me.

[Uncrowned]

1. Would you think I looked like town if I questioned every single time somebody said something about me? Why did you deserve a response from me if you weren't even willing to engage me directly yourself? And why am I the only one at fault for that according to you?

2. Datisi (and you I think) asked me to elaborate so I explained. I would not have brought up those points if nobody asks. I'm sure everyone gets gut reads for stupid reasons sometimes that are hard to explain why it makes you so sure. Not saying that I was sure at all because that was one of my very first posts I'm pretty sure and not a lot happened in the game yet but I didn't think it's really that much of stretch, I don't really remember though.

3. What is the reason a mafia would have to go back to the first vote against them way later when other people give them pressure? That doesn't make sense it would just draw more attention to you. How does that make me scum?

You are attacking my word choice which is a pretty scummy thing to go on for a whole paragraph about. You can't "prove" anything but you can support it or at least make an attempt to prove the best you can, like in a court with lawyers.

It's not that you did or didn't respond to it, it's the TIMING of when you chose to respond. You completely ignored the vote and then decided to call it "unfair" only after you had been pressured. How come it became unfair to you after you had been pressured? Why wasn't it unfair to you as soon as I did it?

And yeah, Datisi asked you to elaborate on it BECAUSE you had said it in the first place. So you did actually bring it up.

Mafia would most definitely try to shade someone's vote against them if they're worried they're getting lynched. How they go about defending themselves is player specific and I have zero meta on you. What, are they just going to sit there and let it happen? I was the beginning of your wagon and the main reason it was happening, it makes sense that you'd go to the root of the problem.

And yeah, I went in on your word choice because it makes zero sense. I gave my reasoning and you don't like it. That's whatever. You're not going to agree with me because it's my read on you. You can't sit there and talk about "proof" when I've already given my point of view on why I think you're scum. There is no proof until you flip. That's that.

Even now your case is still just defending yourself with questions and wine ("what is the reason a mafia would have to go back to the first vote" and "Would you think I looked like town if I questioned every single time someone said something about me?") that's giving me no confidence in your slot at all.

[Uncrowned]

Ok? I asked a question about why he said that, not about what t/s means or why interactions are important. Why are you defending Datisi so much?

I don't know why you are both just throwing game theory labels on every interaction and then getting upset when I say that's not an explanation. I don't care if you are hypothesizing I know that's a big part of the game but I don't like how you are both sometimes avoiding giving real opinions instead of applying theories to things without having to use your own words.

That last question doesn't make any sense those are two different things.

Oh boy.

You do realize to Datisi that... from his perspective... you and me being a TvS WAS a "real thing" that was happening, right? I'm not throwing game theory, I'm literally trying to explain that that WAS Datisi's take on our interactions. You discredited the notion entirely by saying "if you don't even know who is who?" which is why I explained that people are going to have takes on stuff like that, because it is important.

And yes, the last question does actually make sense because you're putting us in a lose-lose situation where you can shade us no matter what we do.

If we give you a "hypothetical" you say that it's just that - a hypothetical, meaning that to you, it's not worth anything.

But when we give an actual take on your case, that too is apparently unfair. So what are we supposed to do, exactly?

[Uncrowned]

You say interactions are the biggest part of the game, but you don't see why I would ask a question besides wanting to know the answer?

You need to stop reaching.

The phrasing "useless question" was because there was already an implied answer that you just chose to ignore. Like I said, if I say something like "Hm, "overblown reactions" are something that I think can come from both town and scum, so to me it's NAI" and then I don't follow up with anything like "However, in this situation I think that it COULD be scum-indicative for ... " then that already lets you know that I didn't find it AI.

You're falling apart here.

VOTE: Dostin

[Uncrowned]

You scream of scum that's upset/frustrated that you've been caught early and now you're scrambling.

[Uncrowned]

For someone who is adamant about needing "evidence" your reads are manufactured and have no backing behind them. You hand out TRs to people and then give minimal reasoning as to why they're town. The other time you were asked for reads, your SRs were Me (who has been directly pushing against you) and then on two slots that were inactive at the time and couldn't engage with you at all. Again, with nothing behind the reads.

You can't even keep your style consistent. For someone all about the evidence, you're severely lacking it when giving your "totally not BS 100% legitimate townreads"

I'm happy to flip this once Ari has completed catching up.

[Uncrowned]

I'm typically not one to deathtunnel but I just can't see this coming from a town player who is actively trying to solve the game. Nothing adds up here. I'll take the blame if this is wrong but I just don't see a townie engaging me in this manner at all.

[Uncrowned]

but I don't like how you are both sometimes avoiding giving real opinions instead of applying theories to things without having to use your own words.

Also the fact you come at me for this is comical considering that at most, maybe 5 of my posts have been about game theory? The rest has been questions, reads, pushes or comments on other interactions. All heavily game-related issues. Naturally you'd try and twist it though to make it seem as though my content has been meaningless, right?

[Uncrowned]

hm. i see it in the exact opposite way from you - if bugs is scum, dostin is likely scum, but i tr dostin on play and vastly prefer a bugs flip here.

Fair bit earlier in the game, but interesting nonetheless. What made you think this, TGP?

[Uncrowned]

Also, TGP/Dostin have less partner equity than I thought they did upon rereading.

[Uncrowned]

TGP's posting has been a little all over the place, especially in terms of reads. Just scanning through the ISO now and I'm not sure what I'm seeing there. Will have to reevaluate.

[Uncrowned]

Uncrowned have you read the wiki page that says people who accuse others of flailing are more likely to be scum but those that flail are more likely to be town? I think the words choice is interesting

I have, yeah.

[Uncrowned]

very interested to know what led you to this conclusion.

I think TGP gave Dostin an early TR that is a bit unwarranted, which I gave slight +equity. Same with Datisi although he seemed like he believed in it more, whereas TGP was sheeping it.

However, Dostin's subsequent calling out of TGP later on in their posting leads me to believe that there is less likelihood. This was in post 352.

The fact that Dostin called out this behavior by TGP makes me think there's a decent chance they're not a team. I don't think he'd bother to do that if they were teamed together. I'm not ruling it out, but I definitely do think it's less likely than I thought previously.

[Uncrowned]

Because you have less associatives, so the course of action is less clear? That's doesnt make you innocent.

If I think there's scum in 2 people and one flips town, I'm obviously going to target the other.

[Uncrowned]

You technically can fit into a range of scumteams in this playerlist, but you've been less overt with your interactions than Bugs has. If Bugs was to flip here, I think it'd be easier to narrow down who their team-mate is than if you were to flip scum.

That alone doesn't make either of you independently more or less scummy. It's just a fact.

[Uncrowned]

And my whole post wasn't about you being town. It was actions that made Bugs look scum. Hence why you're both in my elimpool. And that post explains why I don't believe you two could both be on the scumteam. Please stop trying to twist my posts.

[Uncrowned]

...I actually don't even want to engage anymore with you. You're ignoring everything I've said.

I've already made my cases on both of you in previous posts. What aren't you getting about this?

Anyone else but you in this game would agree that I've made my case on both your slots. It's clear as day. Do I need to go through my ISO and quote every single post on you two?

If you're not going to read properly then don't bother interacting with me at all. Thanks.

[Uncrowned]

Spoiler:

Let's start here.

VOTE: Dostin

Tonally awkward and over-explainy on P1. Content with being TLed with actually delving into why someone would think that after only a couple of posts.

Let's start here.

VOTE: Dostin

Tonally awkward and over-explainy on P1. Content with being TLed with actually delving into why someone would think that after only a couple of posts.

i feel like this read while it's rationed out correctly and you seem town for it, is wrong because of reasons i may not talk about

Okay, talk to me about it in general terms though, without being too specific. Is it just something they usually do? Like a playstyle habit?

In post 36, bugspray wrote:
In post 22, TheGoldenParadox wrote:
i think datisi is town here. he's insanely nervous/anxious as scum from my knowledge and he seems much more relaxed

is it normal to be this tryhard on page 1?
VOTE: tgp

Why do you single out TGP for "tryharding" P1 but not Datisi?

Mind answering this, Bug?

@Datisi

Pretty sure that can come from either alignment. People can make logical posts and then make mistakes. I get how you might see it that way from a... tonal basis, I guess? Either way, my vote sticks.

Are you expecting something from Ico here btw? I think Post 81 is slight +town

@Datisi

Tone was the wrong word to use. I think I linked tone and general behavior too tightly, where I think that Dostin post you're TLing him off of is more the latter than the former.

As for the Ico post, I think it's a reasonable early game assumption for a town to make that I believe would be more probable to come from Town than Scum. While having an over-the-top reaction to a minor push isn't ultimately telling on an alignment, I do think it's a small thing that scum wouldn't bother to push on.

This is frustrated town here imo.

Datisi's post about the "shitpush" was valid and I agreed it was +scum for Kookie but this interaction seems TvT.

IAmAUsername's vote is pretty believable, I think. The reasoning is surface level but we are early game. However I don't believe Kookie was pushing for the PL. It seemed more like an attempt at actual discussion even if it was kinda gross.

TGP do you think Datisi isn't all that capable of changing his behavior when he is scum? Since that seems to be what you're basing your TR on?

Datisi could you answer me about why you're uneasy on Ico?

i'm not uneasy about ico. he's currently as null as it gets. i'm just annoyed because in a couple of recent games, i (correctly) townread him very early, and i'd have liked if i got a read on him early again. sometimes it just doesn't happen.

Ah okay I get you. I misinterpreted.

Unrelated: What do you think the likelihood that Kookie is town but just made a poor read? I ask because I think I might be a bit biased towards the semi-AtE like posts they've made in terms of feeling condescended and how hard they're coming at you. Like I'm not sure scum doubles down on this push so aggressively, especially if you're town? I feel like scum would worry about how bad the push looks and try to appease you. Does that make sense or am I overcomplicating things?

Dostin casing of Datisi/Bugs teaming is a real stretch to the point where it doesn't feel organic in the slightest.

So FMPOV, scum!dostin sees towncrowned vote him early, for an admittedly minor reason. He feels no pressure. TGP and Datisi townlean him so he's feeling good and doesn't feel the need to respond.

Feeling comfortable, he makes that bad read on Datisi/Bugs.

He gets called out for it. Gets to E-1. NOW all of a sudden it's "unfair" that I'm voting you? Now you feel the need to reply, because you're on the chopping block?

Yeah. This is scum. We can wait for Ico/Ari to get back from. V/LA for more info/perspective but this is the flip we're making today.

Actually Dostin, here's a question.

Explain why TGP or Ico could be scum? Interesting how you go after two of the less active players and provide absolutely no reasoning whatsoever.

I didn't even realize how out of place and unfounded those reads were until Bugs brought it up lmao

Dats can you gimme the rundown on why Bugs is scum here?

300 & 309 are compelling. Bugs' interaction with the Dostin wagon especially would make me believe that there is only 1 scum between them.

I still lean toward Dostin being more likely than Bugs though. The whole reaction to my push seems fake. I don't know what town player would ignore a vote on them and then only feel the need to reply once their wagon has picked up.

Couple that with the weak reads without any backing behind them... and the fact they're on two slots who have barely posted? Makes it hard for me to believe that he's not scum.

Why are you asking me what kind of questions you should ask? Aren't you the one voting me? I can't tell you what reasons you have for voting me and I can't tell you what parts of it don't quite add up to you but I don't know why you hadn't talked to me at that point to try and make sure your vote was right.

You're still not talking to me here? Who are you talking to? You're just telling a made up story without even doing anything to try and make sure you can prove it. You're also not even giving me a chance to allow other to read me. By asking me questions you can make sure you're right and you can make other people see for themself that you are right or wrong. This angle doesn't make any sense if you are town and actually think I might be a mafia. You're twisting what actually happened by saying the "Feeling comfortable" part because I was answering a direct question I didn't randomly decide to theorize about Datisi/bugs on my own.

I've already given you my reasons, and you're just saying they're "made-up" and "don't make any sense" without actually telling me why town!you would:

1: Ignoring my vote on you.

2: Making a stretch case on Dats/Bugs while Kookie was being pressured - which FTR I believe is +Equity between you two.

3: Only deciding to interact with me once your wagon reached high pressure.

What exactly do you mean by "prove it" ??? This is Mafia. I can't "prove" anything until I see you flip. Unless I'm an investigative role with results on you, or there's conf!town with a result on you, there will never be a 100% chance that you are or aren't Mafia. This applies to any game on this site. I am going off of probabilities, and I can't imagine your behavior coming from a town who is actually trying to solve the game. You look like a scum who tried to avoid pressure and then shat themselves horribly when they realized that their wagon was picking up.

What was there to talk about with you when I first voted, would you say? I voted you for your awkward P1 entrance and posting style. I then followed that up with pushing on you later on in the game for specific reasons which... you still haven't really answered outside of "this is unfair" and "it doesn't make sense" which isn't much of anything at all.

I don't NEED to ask you anything. If I'm going to make a push because I have a read on you, I'm going to force the issue. If we sat around here asking 21 questions every time we had a read on someone, we'd get talked out of it 99 times out of 100 because then you get into paranoia and a game of "ahh shit they're posting really well now under pressure but I thought they started scummy" or things of that nature.

Even now your posting is shallow. You're trying to shade and discredit without actually pointing out what is wrong with the case.

Datisi is probably +town there for the paranoia on me, I'd imagine.

Dostin why haven't you voted yet?

I'm not actually sure what we're arguing here. You came at bugs really early for my liking. It's why you're technically closer to the bottom of my reads list than the top.

Here I'll do one:

Town->scum
Uncrown
User
Ari
Ico
Tgp
Dostin
Dats
Bugs

my question is how is ari 3rd top town honestly

Ari is closest to true neutral here.

This read list is concerning.

You're telling me you only have two TLs?

Ico can you give me something on anyone other than Bugs?

That's reasonable, Ico.

I'm coming around to the idea of Scum!Bugs based on their interaction with the Dostin wagon. Provided the latter is town, I think there has to be one scum in the following 3 people who all voted on the same page to put him to E-1. Those people were User, Datisi and Bugs, in that order. Out of them, Bugs currently looks the worst.

Follow this with the whole post with the qualifier "If Dostin is town, then this could be scum!datisi being opportunistic" and it just looks like a scummy way to set up a "trajectory" on Datisi on a flip they know will be green.

This leads me to believe that there is only one scum between Dostin and Bugs.

What makes me hesitant on Bugs is that they are currently being SRed by almost everyone. This is LHF... but I don't want to fall into that trap of not eliminating there just because of that.

If Bugs flips scum, I think that the next scum is within Datisi/Kookie since both of them are trying to implicate the other as the partner. That might be bad logic. I don't know. It feels right to me though. I'm pretty sure a Bugs red flip also clears Dostin.

If Dostin flips scum, I'll have to look back at who that implicates, but I'm pretty sure it's TGP? Not 100% on that. A red flip on Dostin also most likely clears User.

I think this is more beneficial given slot interactions atm.

VOTE: Bugspray

Bugs where are you at on Dostin right now?

hm. i see it in the exact opposite way from you - if bugs is scum, dostin is likely scum, but i tr dostin on play and vastly prefer a bugs flip here.

Fair bit earlier in the game, but interesting nonetheless. What made you think this, TGP?

Also, TGP/Dostin have less partner equity than I thought they did upon rereading.

very interested to know what led you to this conclusion.

I think TGP gave Dostin an early TR that is a bit unwarranted, which I gave slight +equity. Same with Datisi although he seemed like he believed in it more, whereas TGP was sheeping it.

However, Dostin's subsequent calling out of TGP later on in their posting leads me to believe that there is less likelihood. This was in post 352.

The fact that Dostin called out this behavior by TGP makes me think there's a decent chance they're not a team. I don't think he'd bother to do that if they were teamed together. I'm not ruling it out, but I definitely do think it's less likely than I thought previously.

This is just picking SOME of the stuff out of my ISO that has been almost 100% game-related, and has aimed at solving either you, Bugs, or another slot in this game.

You are absolutely delusional if you think that this is all hypothetical, or that I haven't explained my reasoning.

I've developed reads through questions, interactions, wagons and reactions to my pushes.

Trying to boil down all of my posting in this game as "nothing" or "filler" or "theoretical" is complete bullshit and you know it.

I'm actually going to be disappointed if you're town because it's clear you have no intentions of engaging with me in good faith or actually paying attention to what I've been saying this entire game.

I don't think it's going to matter though because you're only furthering my suspicions that you're scum at this point.

[Uncrowned]

...holy shit dude. Are you being serious right now?

Me: Hey! I don't someone reacted in an "overblown" way is alignment indicative!

You: What does it mean for Datisi's alignment?

Do you see how that is a ridiculous question? If I THOUGHT it was AI for Datisi, I would've said something about it in the same post. I would have said:

Me: Hey! Normally, I don't think someone reacting in that way is alignment indicative. HOWEVER, I think in this case it could show that Datisi is [insert alignment here] because of this this & this

What aren't you getting about this?

[Uncrowned]

HOLD UP

"Forced" you to give reasons?

No no no.

That's not how this works.

If you don't have reasons, just say that. We didn't force anything out of you. We just asked you. You know, like how you said earlier? Asking questions helps you sort things? Oh, but it's fine when you do it, yeah?

This is so hypocritical lmao

[Uncrowned]

This misrepping is ridiculous. WHERE did I say I would give up? You're literally pulling shit from thin air and trying to act as if it's what I'm saying. You may as well go and start typing in the sections where you're quoting me and passing it off as something I wrote. That's how far you're stretching this BS.

[Uncrowned]

"Taking the blame" and "giving up" are two entirely different things.

[Uncrowned]

Well apparently everything I'm saying to you is either "nothing", a "hypothetical" or "has no backing behind it" so where exactly am I supposed to pick out that it's "sometimes" because your entire argument against me has been based on having no evidence?

You go back on things you say like your terrible manufactured reads and now you're doing the same here.

[Uncrowned]

I refuse to believe I'm talking to someone who is actually determined to sort me, engage me in any sort of good faith, or actually discuss with me without trying to discredit me through reasons that are clearly flawed and manufactured.

[Uncrowned]

Hey Ari. How is your catchup going?

[Uncrowned]

All good, take your time. I'll try to stop clogging the thread now lmao

[Uncrowned]

What are you talking about? Are you confused about post 463? I'm not talking about your ISO, the part in quotemarks is what I am saying "t/s" means to me. It is a very weak point and I seriously do not understand why you and Datisi are acting like it is not.

Here's why this makes no sense.

When Datisi said you and me were a TvS you jumped on it and called it a weak point... but uhh, aren't you actually admitting he's correct on it being a TvS if you're adamant about me being Scum?

And I'm not talking about ignoring in the literal sense. It's about the content in your posts.

And now you're just repeating what I'm saying back to me like it gives you credit or something.

By the way, Scum!Me would never bother going after your slot when I could've easily piled on one of Bugs/Kookie for a lynch. But sure, believe it if you like.

[Uncrowned]

...uhh? What? You literally said you were "forced" by Datisi and myself to come up with an answer. Are you reading your own posts or are you forgetting to do that too now?

[Uncrowned]

For someone who is adamant about needing "evidence" your reads are manufactured and have no backing behind them. You hand out TRs to people and then give minimal reasoning as to why they're town. The other time you were asked for reads, your SRs were Me (who has been directly pushing against you) and then on two slots that were inactive at the time and couldn't engage with you at all. Again, with nothing behind the reads.

You can't even keep your style consistent. For someone all about the evidence, you're severely lacking it when giving your "totally not BS 100% legitimate townreads"

I'm happy to flip this once Ari has completed catching up.

When was I handing out townreads? I said not a lot of people looked scummy to me. Y

ou and Datisi who I think are both scum forced me to give reasons for that when I didn't have any reasons in the first place. This all feels like one big trap.

[Uncrowned]

It is so obvious that you are scum and you didn't expect me to fight back when you started trying from the very first page of the game to get me voted out today.

Not really. I always expect people to fight back against their own elimination. Why wouldn't I?

As both town and scum I am pretty capable of forcing through an elimination if I want to. I've done it before, and I'm going to do it now because you're scum. You might have been able to avoid it if your defense actually had some merit behind it but... well, it doesn't. Sorry.

[Uncrowned]

Turning my words against me feels like a trap.

What words? That you thought Bugs/Datisi was a SvS?

Yeah, sorry buddy. That's not gonna cut it here. You don't get to come up with a manufactured read that you don't actually believe in, get questioned about it, and then try change the narrative and whine about how you were "FORCED" into it.

Nah, you just called out on your shit.

Anyway, you gonna make a claim? Because TGP is about to hammer you.

[Uncrowned]

You're screaming about how "no, YOU are the actually the one that's a hypocrite, being ignorant, making weak points, misconstruing," etc.

I'm flattered, really.

Now claim.

[Uncrowned]

okay, i'm convinced. intent dostin, but i will wait until ari catches up.

Intent in this context means he's about to hammer you.

[Uncrowned]

Sorry, I meant they. My bad.

[Uncrowned]

seeing you are so obvious desperate mafia here.

Shieeeeet... I wonder why that is. Beats me.

[Uncrowned]

Hmm.

If no CC on BG, I think we avoid flipping Dostin D1.

That leaves a pool of {Bugs, Kookie} at least for me. For the latter, I'll need to re-read game start and their whole interaction with Datisi again.

TGP has also been an interesting slot that I'll ISO. This will have to happen once I'm back from work ):

UNVOTE: Dostin for now until we get some more thoughts.

[Uncrowned]

Well, given I think Bugs and Dostin has 1 scum between them, I don't think flipping the claimed officer + PR is worth the risk when there's someone who has also been rather scummy that we could opt for.

Maybe that thinking is too passive? Idk. I'm not opposed to lynching him based on play but the risk of scum potentially getting closer to their wincon is one that is sticking with me a bit.

[Uncrowned]

You are right to a degree though. I should stick with my gut. I still do believe Dostin has a higher chance of flipping red than Bugs does.

If he gets another vote I will hammer once Ari has caught up.

[Uncrowned]

Possibly. Idk. Like I want to flip one of Bugs/Dostin and Bugs feels better from a safety standpoint but my instincts tell me Dostin is just scum here.

[Uncrowned]

Bugs is scummy but I think the most telling of their alignment will be a Dostin flip. They put that wagon to E-1 early when 3 votes flew in on the same page. One of those 3 (User, Dats and Bugs) has to be scum if Dostin is town.

[Uncrowned]

Idk I'm confused. My head tells me we should play it safe and let him live at least a day. My heart tells me get his ass

[Uncrowned]

Ico is your desire to vote on Dostin really just based on that one post?

[Uncrowned]

That's also a point I didn't consider ^

I think that's E1 on Bugs btw...? maybe?

[Uncrowned]

I was meant to say that for the post you voted not about the Ico scum thing. although that is interesting and not something I've considered too heavily yet tbh

[Uncrowned]

I don't like Ari's pop ins where they basicly just lurk

if he's scum, then uncrowned + Dostin are both town i'd imagine, and scum are happy with this game as is.

Could this be applied to any other slots, you think?

[Uncrowned]

Oh, turns out I'm not voting.

VOTE: Bugspray

This is E-2.

[Uncrowned]

and i think town!Noraa would absolutely not have backed down on Datisi here.

This is a good point.

bugspray feels like the easy choice. i'm not into it.

What do you make of them putting Dostin to E-1 real fast earlier in the game? If your read on Dostin has changed now?

[Uncrowned]

and there hasn't really been a strong push against the dostin wagon.

Yeah, this is true. The only one who seemed to oppose it was TGP. Kookie definitely sidelined the game once my conflict with Dostin started. I think TGP's treatment of Dostin entirely has been kinda interesting. They gave him a real early TR which I don't think was all that warranted, and then decided to flip on that based on just one post from Dostin that they didn't like. I don't think that's necessarily an exclusively scum behavior TGP would do, but it did catch my attention.

VOTE: Kookie

I'll sheep this.

[Uncrowned]

You underestimate my attention to detail ):

[Uncrowned]

Why would you still vote me out? Mafia will probably kill me or I might die from using my bodyguard power.

I think Datisi already made this point and I agreed with it. But yeah, this is true.

[Uncrowned]

The Kookie thing about half the playerlist being scummy just feels like a cheap way to be able to change their read onto a vulnerable slot when the time comes, imo. It didn't read to me as an actual townie being confused by the gamestate.

[Uncrowned]

I don't like Ari's pop ins where they basicly just lurk

ari's been extremely dodgy of this game so far
even responding to a call out in minutes but no content

Ari do you think it's accurate/fair to call this "shading" or is it something you think town!Ico would pickup on and feel like calling out?

I don't think Ico is scum here for similar reasons that they brought up before. Scum would have been fine with Dostin vs. Me and allowed that to ride through to a PR lynch if it's TvT. Hell, I legit tried to bait Ico into sticking a vote on him by saying that I'd hammer it... and nothing. I'm seeing zero opportunism here.

Even if you want to disregard that, wagons then moved onto Bugs and Kookie. I'm not sure Scum!Ico would even feel the need to bring you up here, or at all. You've been a mostly ignored slot due to your activity and with suspicions already set on other slots without much stagnation in the game state... I don't think it's something that would come from scum.

[Uncrowned]

Uhh... am I? I think what I'm more saying is from the perspective of if Ico were scum and he knew both of you were town, he'd have no reason to pursue Ari?

[Uncrowned]

i'm confident this flips red based on interactions with kookie + wagons

Can you talk about this bit some more? How is it scum indicative?

[Uncrowned]

dostin, who were you ordered to protect

will this not narrow down who the captain could be?

[Uncrowned]

I'm pretty confident in the probability that TGP is scum given not only the hammer, but also how he was approaching Bugs the entire game. They were parked on Bugs for a lot of the game without providing much else in terms of solving outside of vague changes of opinion on Dostin.

[Uncrowned]

I'm interested in who would've went for the Bugs kill. Like, I'm not sure which scumteams would opt for that here?

I'm not very aware of most people's playstyles here nor their competency as scum, so I'd probably need a bit of help in this department. I assume a team with Datisi on it wouldn't bother to kill Bugs. Just judging off of play and vibe alone I don't User would either.

I feel like Ari + Dostin could be a possible team that would do this, considering Dostin is a newer player (...right? I think?) and Ari hasn't been totally engaged in this game, meaning that they may not be super aware of the gamestate and what's going on. I think there's a decent chance one of these is scum at the least, as I think a scumteam would most likely need at least one of them on it to even consider shooting Bugs last night.

I actually think it's probably one of the above + TGP who are the team.

[Uncrowned]

Ari hasn't seemed very solvey at all but that's probably a byproduct of inactivity, and I'm not that confident in my scumhunting to distinguish between scum inactivity and town activity.

Dostin imo still had a super scummy D1 and uhh... I'm kind of confused about why you'd obey an order to protect Datisi? Didn't you SR him hard?

[Uncrowned]

I think that's a reasonable assumption to make.

Kind of interested in the fact that Dostin isn't dead today.

[Uncrowned]

And that he'd obey an order to protect you when you were his second highest scumread.

[Uncrowned]

I was confused by TGP handing out TRs really easily in the beginning of the game for minor reasons, and the way they sort of hovered around the wagons without really committing to anything, being adamant about Dostin being town for ages and then all of a sudden flipping on him when he was on the verge of being eliminated, and then the Kookie hammer all just looks really bad. Couple that with the fact that TGP was shading Bugs quite a bit at the start IIRC and I'm thinking there's a decent chance they flip red.

[Uncrowned]

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

[Uncrowned]

dats's read progression on dostin feels really weird here and looks a lot more "scum trying to secure a mislim"

This feels a bit like possible TMI? How would you know if it would end up as a miselim or not?

Because you thought Dostin was scummy. As Ico mentioned, the claim isn't really AI but it naturally would cause some concern in terms of not wanting to lynch an officer and get scum closer to their wincon. You don't mention any of that though. Which would mean that you still read the slot as scum... right? Or at the very least, you shouldn't be so certain that it would lead to a miselim.

And don't you think your own progression on Dostin looks just as bad in the first place? Lol

I'm kind of confused by this whole bit.

[Uncrowned]

Hey Ico can you talk to me a bit about TGP?

Are you still of the same opinion you had in 388? Now that Bugs is dead, that would leave TGP/Ari/Datisi in your pool? Is that still accurate to now or has it changed since then?

[Uncrowned]

Well if you read my post, I said you're a possible team because I dont think there's many other players who fit the bill for the Bugspray kill. The fact that Ari has said little is a big part of that as I feel like there's a chance they aren't very in tune with the game state atm.

And no, not really. If I wanted you out that bad I would've kept pushing yesterday. I feel like at this point you're probably self-resolving and there's not much of a need to push on you. TGP has been more scummy than you and I'm pretty sure based on their interaction with your wagon that you two can't be a team together.

[Uncrowned]

Dostin/TGP have been so weird around each other. I can't decide if they have partner equity or not lmao

Dostin explain your progression on Datisi please

[Uncrowned]

Like I thought a team with them didn't make sense but the way they're approaching each other is so awkward

[Uncrowned]

Also Dostin who do you think would want to kill Bugspray

[Uncrowned]

I think I've obvtowned imo but I'd understand paranoia to an extent I suppose? I'm not really sure.

[Uncrowned]

I think you'd be paranoid of me trying to buddy you specifically

[Uncrowned]

I don't think you've seen my towngame to be fair unless you've followed games I've been in in the past so???

[Uncrowned]

So uhh if Datisi is town for how they've treated your slot... did you have any opinions on Datisis towncase on me after I unvoted you or no?

[Uncrowned]

ari/dostin, can you two talk reads?

Sure, have you got questions for me or nah?

who are your townreads, who are your scumreads, and why? :upside_down_emoji:

XD
Okay I should have expected that tbh.

dostin gets to be town for now. I was thinking about the lack of game-mechanics knowledge in the last few posts and really I don't think scum would allow a scummate to be this uneducated about their role and how it works. Plus, the nature of the role means we may find out sooner than later and I'm willing to let that go.

TGP scum based on that hammer. I think they are by far the best Elim for today and we should be hitting scum there.

Datisi town. I mean, I made this case yesterday and I don't see Datisi killing Bugs, plus posting today has been good.

Icon could go either way and Imma have to read that better to give a proper answer here.

I forget that Username and Uncrowned exist most of the time? I suppose that's 2 nulls but I should probably give them a deepdive too and get an actual answer here.

Hooooooly ninja's

this is kind of concerning ngl

[Uncrowned]

So much uncertainty and null-reading and the fact that two (this part is bised) two at least somewhat townie presences are people you've "forgotten" are in the game is like... uhh what?

like I dont get how you're so certain on TGP but your reads on everyone else outside of Datisi seems wishy washy? like it could change at any moment?

[Uncrowned]

I don't think it can town confirm anymore because everyone in the game knows who the BG is now

[Uncrowned]

interested in that massive +town equity for UC

ok. so. imagine you're scumcrowned. you're pretty widely townread, and one of the rare people scumreading you is under intent due to your own push. the person claims bodyguard officer. luckily for you, this is not an usual setup where PR claims are mostly town and can be self-resolving and therefore it's very difficult to get one of them executed day one (cough), this is ~chain of command~. as scumcrowned, do you:

(a) assert how PR/officer claims have zero correlation with one's alignment, assert how you have such a strong scumread on dostin you want to see him eat rope anyway. this would (1) get rid of the one person that has the correct read on you, without it having the attention-draw of a nightkill, (2) get rid of a protective, (3) either get you closer to the secondary win condition (kill all officers - remember the last run?) or possibly get you closer to holding control of the PRs. (assuming the captain ain't scum.)

(b) unvote and go "lol ok"

pedit: uncrowned did you just make my towncase on you go down the toilet

this was it

do you think this is flawed

I'm curious because a while ago it seemed like you thought myself/Datisi was the solve

[Uncrowned]

Oh

I think that's a bad assumption to make because I'd say most of the setups I've been in can have scum PRs but okay

[Uncrowned]

and even if there were no scum PRs it doesn't necessarily confirm you?

[Uncrowned]

I'm kind of seeing a disconnect here because I don't think you can argue I cooked up this master plan to push you from the start of the game and then "forget" a key part of the game that would screw with said plan.

[Uncrowned]

talk about it a bit?

[Uncrowned]

Who cares? Then why did you unvote after I claimed?

Because I dont think it's worth the risk of potentially getting scum closer to their wincon and killing a PR that theoretically should be self resolving anyway?

[Uncrowned]

I think Ari is more likely than Ico and I'd rather vote there, but I'll sheep if we need to.

I also just generally thing TGP has been super scummy and we shouldn't fall into the trap of "too scummy to be scum" but that's just me

[Uncrowned]

oh right ari

Datisi + Ari?

so is this still your solve?

TGP: Ico/Ari
Ico: Datisi/Ari
Datisi: Ico/TGP
Ari: TGP/Ico?

I think this dynamic is interesting enough to where I could say with reasonable confidence that both scum are within this pool of {TGP, Ico, Datisi, Ari}

The fact none of Ico/TGP/Datisi who were on the Dostin wagon (I believe? I need to recheck this) haven't followed up on him at all since the wagon melted down also gives me the sense that there's scum between them who weren't actually interested in solving his slot.

Based on this I think Dostin is town which makes me sad I wasted pages tunneling him, but oh well it looks like it served a purpose. The only thing still making me hesitate on calling Dostin town is the fact that he was a counterwagon to town, but I was the one who drove it which sort of alleviates some of that paranoia at least.

If User is scum then gg I guess we'll cross that bridge if we get to it, but I'm confident in that slot being town.

[Uncrowned]

Do you find TGP's progression on you weird at all? I remember you calling it into question when he switched his vote onto you, which I also found off to be honest.

I'm just not sure the trajectory behind reads has been all that good. Threatening to hammer you and then hammering Kookie... ugh it just screams scum to me but I don't know.

[Uncrowned]

Kookie was also a claimed PR when TGP hammered I believe?

[Uncrowned]

Also now I'm looking back on how TGP interacted with Kookie throughout D1 and just... what's the aim there? There's some early voting on kookie for their posting during RVS and some comments about how Kookie/Bugs is the scum team but I'm seeing no real attempted solve there? Just TGP saying that this is the team without any backing or even attempt at reasoning? It's such a confusing turn of events. Then to just ignore that slot for a few real life days and then end up reverting back to hammering that slot? LIke whaaaaaaaaaat?

TGP >>>>> Ari >>> Ico >> Datisi > Dostin >>> User

is my preferred order of elims right now

[Uncrowned]

Okay, well I feel as though that further accentuates my point.

The four of you are all reading each as scum to some degree, or close to it. There is little on Dostin/Myself/User and at best there has to be only one scum between us, and I'm thinking that highly unlikely at the moment... and I think scum have figured that out too and aren't looking to push something that's not gonna happen.

I personally think it's really telling that all four slots mutually SR each other to some degree. Ico is present for 3 out of 4 of you. TGP and Ari are present twice.

From my perspective, this is almost simulating like a cross-vote of sorts in ELo. Does that make sense?

[Uncrowned]

well no because they're still theoretically fine in the PoE now if they get a miselim on the other two in the PoE and then kill one of the "townblock"

also i don't think you can say the gamestate is fine with you four being in PoE because the PoE wasn't brought up at all until I mentioned it? if this had been an ongoing discussion for pages and we were in deadlock and stagnation for pages then yeah but it feels weird you'd try and discredit it already in that particular manner

[Uncrowned]

I mean both ari and I have expressed some level of discomfort around Dostin. it was only recently I super came around to town!dostin I believe?

I'd argue only myself and user were strongly TR. imo the gamestate was wide open and im the one narrowing it down right now

[Uncrowned]

and yeah I made it pretty explicit i think you're the most townie out of the group but that doesn't exclude you from the pool

I feel like you're overly concerned with this? I wouldn't say my view is flawless by any stretch but I'm not seeing why your issue with it is so big when you claim your pool is ari tgp and ico anyway?

[Uncrowned]

wtf

[Uncrowned]

well that was fun to wake up to

this is still winnable even if its green

[Uncrowned]

I mean it's not the worst elim. TGP/Ico is plausible but I would've preferred we went TGP here.

[Uncrowned]

TGP/Ari almost guaranteed imo if this flips green

[Uncrowned]

What order is that? Elimination order?

[Uncrowned]

Is it optimal to massclaim right now?

[Uncrowned]

Okay. I'm fine with that.

[Uncrowned]

I believe we are in an excellent position to win this game, we just need to be smart.

I'm 75% sure TGP/Ari is the team.

Ari is practically confirmed scum based on being the wagon opposing town + hammer, I'd think?

[Uncrowned]

Okay, gonna look through vote counts for a bit.

[Uncrowned]

dostin(4) ~ iamausername(7), bugspray(69), Uncrowned(74), Datisi(97)

This is the only vote count that's *really* catching my eye at the moment.

What are the chances that this whole wagon was town-driven, do you think?

[Uncrowned]

Actually, Dostin being flipped reminds me.

TGP's trajectory on that slot was absolute garbage.

[Uncrowned]

Like it legitimately screamed of TMI.

[Uncrowned]

Spoiler:

hot take????? dostin is aligned with the town.

agree with this take

let's see what happens VOTE: dostin e-1

terrible vote

like this is horrible, any way dostin flips

For someone who is adamant about needing "evidence" your reads are manufactured and have no backing behind them. You hand out TRs to people and then give minimal reasoning as to why they're town. The other time you were asked for reads, your SRs were Me (who has been directly pushing against you) and then on two slots that were inactive at the time and couldn't engage with you at all. Again, with nothing behind the reads.

You can't even keep your style consistent. For someone all about the evidence, you're severely lacking it when giving your "totally not BS 100% legitimate townreads"

I'm happy to flip this once Ari has completed catching up.

When was I handing out townreads? I said not a lot of people looked scummy to me. You and Datisi who I think are both scum forced me to give reasons for that when I didn't have any reasons in the first place. This all feels like one big trap.

okay, i'm convinced.

intent dostin

, but i will wait until ari catches up.

i was townreading you quite hard, but this post threw me because the logic is so... convoluted. "you and datisi who i think are both scum forced me" so you're saying both scum are trying to "trap" you together, and you're scumreading two of the most active and solvey slots in the game just because they're pressuring you? this is a scumpost, and iaaun is correct that this slot has tons of partner equity with bugs.

This is the extent of TGP's read on the slot. Handed out a TR off of practically nothing, had zero to say the rest of the game and then at the end it just looks like they picked something random from my conflict with Dostin to fit a manufactured SR.

[Uncrowned]

I thought the first couple votes on this site are supposed to be random to kick off the discussion. Doesn't choosing from a list ruin the whole point?

Nah, it's just as random a reason as any. Plus, it's not a confirmed reason, I'm merely speculating and joking about it

hot take????? dostin is aligned with the town.

[

dostisi

]

Holy shit I just saw this as well.

Yeah, he played it off as though it wasn't serious... but this looks so bad when you realize that TGP made the EXACT same read, but Ari didn't bring it up at all? It's kind of surface level but it pings me so bad. It's just one of those minor interactions that I feel should've happened? Like, you saw TGP sheep Datisi on that, why wouldn't you bring that up as well?

[Uncrowned]

I could go into a whole thing about my paranoia of User and Datisi but I don't think it makes sense. While I don't think either of your cases on Ico were *amazing* I could sense some genuine frustration from Datisi in terms of not being able to get a proper read on Ico, which I think rings true. I don't think Ico obvtowned here. I didn't sense malice or any real agenda behind the push.

User is a little harder to read here based on the case alone and I kinda wanna go through the ISO again, which isn't that long anyway. My TR on User is almost entirely just a *feeling* but the posts have been content rich and I'm not sure I've seen too much of an agenda? I guess the one thing you could say is they've been somewhat sheepy of the general game state, since they've been present on both Dostin and Ico in similar styles who are both now conf!town? Idk man.

[Uncrowned]

I just realized that mass-claim isn't going to matter. and here's why.

I am the Captain. The final role in this setup is Doctor.

Last night, I ordered Dostin to Bodyguard me, and I ordered the Doctor to protect Dostin.

The Doctor disobeyed. I originally thought that scum just targeted me, but it's clear now that they wanted Dostin to be the NK. There is no reason a town doctor would not obey the order to protect Dostin, a claimed PR (with no counter-claim) and Officer. The Doctor is scum and will either claim VT or, and this is why I'm doing this now, claim the exact same thing I am claiming right now. I am getting ahead of this so we don't get caught up in paranoia BS.

N1 I ordered TGP roleblocked (which didn't go through obviously)
Dostin on Datisi
And Doctor on Myself.

Dostin and the Doctor obeyed.

The Doctor now knows that I know they are scum, but I do not know who the doctor is.

I'm going to have to go back through the game and see if there was any crumbs. If we find one, that confirms one scum.

[Uncrowned]

Following this train of thought, I'm actually quite sure this clears Datisi, I think?

I think if Datisi were a scum PR, he'd probably want to just play a more patient game and really fit into the role of being a PR? I don't think he'd go ham on Kookie and make himself a target and then potentially be wagoned, forced to claim, and then have something exactly like this happen.

The way TGP/Ari/User have played are all far more indicative of someone who is a PR in general.

[Uncrowned]

Also I feel like TGP has been trying to set up a miselim on Datisi from early on, just reading through their ISO again.

There's a slight bit of doubt in me but TGP/Ari is looking super likely as the solve.

[Uncrowned]

I was still paranoid about Dostin and I was legitimately confused as to why he obeyed an order to protect his highest or second highest SR (can't remember which it was at the time). I thought if he was town he'd disobey and bring it up as scummy

In hindsight it didn't make sense because there's no benefit to disobeying anyway even if you think the person is scum but that was just an immediate thought that popped up in my mind that didn't connect with me at the time

[Uncrowned]

i can be kinda dumb mechanically tbh like i thought i was being big brain but i uhh... yeah wasn't

[Uncrowned]

I think the thought process there might have been that they wouldn't want to confirm someone? Possibly?

I just don't see why the doctor would disobey to defend Dostin. It makes no sense.

[Uncrowned]

Also I vaguely remember bringing this up start of D2 but I still don't think you fit the bill for Bugs kill, and I'm not sure User does either? I think the Bugs kill requires a team that is at least mildly unaware of the game state.

[Uncrowned]

Also I'm extra confused now about why Dostin wasn't killed N1 because that would've been prime time to frame me I think

Dostin and I end of D2 had just come around to a mutual TR on each other so the timing of this is just... odd. User seems like a calculated player, I don't think they make this kind of mistake.

[Uncrowned]

And I think D1 you were expressing bits of paranoia on me, same as you did on D2. I think if you were scum, you would've ran with that angle even further and just murdered Dostin D1.

As scum controls the doctor, there's no worry there about "Oh, maybe Dostin gets protected" and you would've recognized that, killed him and then forced a conflict between the two of us, I'd imagine.

Unless you took the slim chance of cooking this whole thing up to use against me in Elo but it just seems like so much more trouble than it's worth, especially with the risk of me coming out like this.

[Uncrowned]

I am 100% telling the truth. I'm not gonna do gross AtE and manipulation shit because that ain't me, but you just gotta take my word for it.

If I am counter-claimed here, it is 100% a scumclaim. I suspect everyone will claim they're VT.

[Uncrowned]

I guess this is assuming someone counter claims captain now?

but if i wanted to go for the officer win con if i wasn't captain I would've just killed him N1? the officer win con is irrelevant now

[Uncrowned]

but i thought scum coulnd't win with that wincon if one of them was an officer? is that not the setup?

[Uncrowned]

OHHH you just wrote "can" instead of "can't" by mistake i'm a dummy i should've inferred that from the rest of your point

Yeah i guess but that's wine

I mean I don't think scumcrowned ever kills dostin here just as he turns his read around to a TR on me

I think if i'm scum here I probably kill User? User expressed paranoia on me D2 whereas Dostin seemed like he had come around. I think I bank on convincing Dostin in Elo moreso than User here. assuming user is town i suppose but if he isn't then we've probably already lost sadly

this is all wine anyway but this is honestly how i'd see it from scum POV if thats what i was this game

[Uncrowned]

i would like to point out that this sort of NKA narrative thing is the exact same thing I did as scum in Elo and I'm kinda happy about that because it shows me to an extent that i can replicate at least a small portion of my towngame as scum

/self masturbation is now over i'm sorry

[Uncrowned]

luckily I am a good boi

[Uncrowned]

holy shit

youre right

fuck fuck fuck fuck

dude I knew I was missing something when I claimed captain I fucking knew it but I said "nah doctor is scum that's it I dont need to wait for claims"

[Uncrowned]

I had the post written up for a good 2 minutes and I was trying to doctor strange the shit thinking of all the possibilities of how this could go wrong and I said to myself "nah we good" and posted

this is why I hate mechanical responsibility sigh

[Uncrowned]

it does make sense

im actually pissed at myself

either way I think its weird they don't kill the pr right away in case it screws with their planned kill because doc is scum but shit we could've caught someone slipping

[Uncrowned]

...I'm going to shut up now

[Uncrowned]

oh hi

yeah uhh I thought you were ensign af trying to bait NKs tbh hence why I put dostin on you N1

I had slim paranoia of you that I wanted to put to rest and was hoping you'd get confirmed and dostin would die due to claimed pr + officer which was true due to no cc

[Uncrowned]

I mean likewise?

you being commander obviously makes me think the inverse but as I said it just makes no sense from the perspective of scum having the doc and knowing dostin couldn't of been protected. the risk of dostin confirming a town for the captain who you'd know is town is too much of a risk plus I think scum you sees bugs as a pushable miselim

you've played it well if you are scum and I tip my hat to you (which I guess is actually kind of an insult to you because I am uncrowned and therefore do not wear hats but yeah)

[Uncrowned]

So I meant that you being commander brings up the whole "oh there's a decent chance of scum officer" but I'm disregarding it because scum has to have control of the doctor and that would mean that they go for dostin regardless because they know he's not gonna be healed and I think you'd recognise that

couple that with the fact that I think you'd view bugs as someone you could push a miselim on and I find It more likely that you're just town here

[Uncrowned]

I assume Dostin died from a direct attack as the doctor disobeyed my command to heal him.

I ordered Dostin to defend me, but my guess is scum were worried he'd get ordered onto a townie and inadvertently clear them. Though they could've just gambled on Dostin being ordered on them instead and getting themselves "cleared"

I think this further solidifies Ari/TGP who don't even seem to like... care about this ELo at all?

[Uncrowned]

I have a theory that kinda scares me and its that only one of tgp/ari and scum and that they're trying to antispew atm in the event that we get them

Like I dont want to psyche myself out and be feel like a dummy by doing the whole "its too easy" thing but ughhh

[Uncrowned]

the only thing making me real nervous of user is the votes. they've been on

-Dostin when he was the wagon (almost elimmed)
-kookie when they were the wagon (elimmed)
-ico when they were the wagon (elimmed)

the cases on these slots have been fine and user has posted well but it just seems too perfect. too coincidental. the absolute lack of sus on other slots outside of the ones that are always being pressured.

[Uncrowned]

i'm legit asking you the same thing

like if you're scum here i'm scarred forever and i'll never trust you again

i think tgp/user is possible

there's been such a lack of interaction between these remaining few slots it's so hard to figure out what the solve is i feel like we're shooting in the dark

[Uncrowned]

out of curiosity

if a bodyguard successfully defended someone but was healed by the doctor, would they still be alive?

[Uncrowned]

do you have scum!TGP meta? is it known that they aren't solvey/don't like playing the alignment?

[Uncrowned]

i skimmed the game earlier to look for crumbs but don't believe anyone did ):

[Uncrowned]

my tinfoil is that scum figured out you were the captain, you were directly attacked, and they disobeyed healing dostin *just in case* he was ordered to protect you but ehh, it's impossible to say anything with certainty anyway

i need to check something

oh this might have actually been what happened

for some reason i thought it only meant that they wanted dostin gone but in hindsight he probably shouldn't of been the kill

im not sure who this implicates just yet

gut tells me it should indicate that user probably isn't scum here? because I left him out of my PoE so he'd probably feel real safe with keeping me around for Elo

[Uncrowned]

So I just looked for associatives and man there isn't much

User treated Ari/TGP relatively similarly. Didn't really bring either of them up allll that much until now.

Datisi looks as though he has minus equity with TGP but plus equity with Ari. Ari was constantly just a null read and there didn't seem to be all that much pushing on that slot when compared to how Datisi went at TGP. This could just be a byproduct of Ari being slightly less involved in the game though.

TGP/Ari have... barely spoke about each other at all. Like to a weird degree. I'm not that experienced at trying to read associatives so I'm not sure what this means? I feel like scum would at least make a light effort to bring each other up a couple times

[Uncrowned]

Looking forward to a case, TGP!

I think your hammer was very scummy but that doesn't make you outright scum. I'm holding my vote for the moment, but I'd like to see what you've got for us

This is the only thing Ari directed at TGP and then didn't bring them up again until I had come to a PoE pool of Ico, TGP, Ari and Datisi.

[Uncrowned]

okay, i'm convinced. intent dostin, but i will wait until ari catches up.

everyone else except ari is just town or at least a townlean

And this is all TGP said about Ari.

These kind of look tacked on imo. Like "hey I'm supposed to interact with you but i'm not really sure how to do so in this gamestate" kinda posts. idk maybe i'm just talking out of my ass but it doesn't sit right with me

[Uncrowned]

I am here

[Uncrowned]

in terms of likelihood I see

tgp/ari > ari/datisi > user/tgp

the whole lack of interactions between you and ari is just pinging me so badly tho

[Uncrowned]

I think today ari might be the safest vote?

[Uncrowned]

im so fucking paranoid of you right now

[Uncrowned]

would you vote ari with me here?

[Uncrowned]

idk mostly your interactions with ari this game and your whole "officer is scum" thing feels like an angle you possibly took to get someone elimmed but you didn't realize i was the captain and that this wouldn't work because I've towned hard this game

[Uncrowned]

its pretty far fetched but I do think there's a world where you think inactive tgp/ari are captain and they're scummy enough to get elimmed and you see this as the icing on the top to get em yeeted

[Uncrowned]

well if you're scum it has been extremely well played good sir

it is what it is

VOTE: tgp

[Uncrowned]

wait no I want ari first

VOTE: ari

[Uncrowned]

I guess it doesn't matter either way

[Uncrowned]

VOTE: tgp

[Uncrowned]

...

[Uncrowned]

I had ruled out ari/user tbh so im gonna feel double dumb if this is scum

[Uncrowned]

if they are scum i should say

user did you really do it to us