Micro 1082 - I’m the Real Tracker (Day 4)

[Political Clout]

VOTE: bingle for being number !! I'm jealous.

[Political Clout]

Here is the way i imagine D2 starting as a whole with what i am saying just FYI.

Every player claims their night target.
Once this has completed, every player can also claim whether the night targets make sense to them (Allows for Tracker/Inspector/Loyal Checker to give their info, while protected by pretenders/People claiming Roleblocked with no visits on them.)

Examples as follows;

X is a doctor, they attempted to protect Y
Y was killed at night, no one claims to visit X at night, therefore X claims that they believe there is False information. if someone claims to have visited X, then they claim that they believe they have true information.
Y wasn't killed at night, X will claim that they believe there is true information.

X is a Tracker, They visited Y and got that they visited Z
Y claims to have visited X at night, therefore X claims that they believe there is False information.
Y claims to have visited Z at night, therefore X claims that they believe there is True information.

X is a Loyal Checker, they checked Y at night
For a failure, If no one visited X at night, they claim False information, If someone visited X at night, they claim they have true information.
For a completion of the action, if someone visited X at night, they claim False information, If someone didn't visit X at night, the claim True information.

X is an Inspector, they checked Y at night.
For a positive, if no one claims to have visited Y at night, they claim False information, if someone claims to visit Y at night, they claim True information
For a negative, if no one claims to have visited Y at night, they claim True information, if someone claims to visit Y at night, they claim False information.

The rest can claim randomly.

Note that the above allows truthful claims from Tracker/Loyal Checker/Inspector that the scum can't cleanly identify before a flip, and post a flip, town can have truthful information as to who the PR has visited, and their result.

The random and Pretender claims also cleanly hide each of these PR's fairly well.

Note: i don't think this really breaks the setup all that much, it just hinders scum from lying in their claims.

I'm a bit stupid so bear with me. d2 begins we all claim who we targeted right? how do we do the second part? how would the target check make sense to them? are we just doing this to know who has true information? your examples make sense to me. like in your first example lets say i'm the doctor and I visit you jason but you jason die that means I have false information, but if you don't die then that means I have true information? am I following this correctly? or am I a clown?

[Political Clout]

Isn't it a bit odd that you say it isn't indicative, rather than 'I don't think it's indicative'?

I find it pretty scummy and to be honest I find it pretty goofy that you're defending it based on what, meta?

Ninja'd by Bingle: Uh

UNVOTE:

I agree with this. rather than ignore I think there could be something there like if they do it as either alignment why not let others engage and ask what they are doing. I also agree with bingle I don't see why we can't implement jason's idea and also catch scum d1. sorry been absent another game currently holds my attention.

[Political Clout]

Isn't it a bit odd that you say it isn't indicative, rather than 'I don't think it's indicative'?

what does this mean

I find it weird that there's no hesitancy from Merlyn in calling it specifically 'Not Scum Indicative.

Like they very clearly say that 'It's not scum indicative of them', which isn't preceded by an 'I think or anything like that - it's a very definite statement backed up by absolutely nowt.

UNVOTE: Kowahbunga
VOTE: Merlyn

someone else calledit not scum indicative as well appearance are they scum in the same way?

I have to disagree with that and I find it actually inherently scummy to be suggesting a no-lim with the intensity that you are. This is the only thing you're pushing and my gut reaction is that it stinks.

if someone earnestly believes in a no lim in this situation then they shouldn't push anyone so that they don't give scum information

I find it weird that there's no hesitancy from Merlyn in calling it specifically 'Not Scum Indicative.

Like they very clearly say that 'It's not scum indicative of them', which isn't preceded by an 'I think or anything like that - it's a very definite statement backed up by absolutely nowt.

I don't think whether or not she said "I think" matters a whole lot? She isn't proclaiming absolute grandstanding confidence. It's not like, a binary thing lol. Disagreeing with the meta read is fine, but getting uppity about this is weird!

I don't like the reasoning for either of your votes

VOTE: Delta

VOTE: delta nvm I agree with invisibility now.

[Political Clout]

I'm missing something.

So mafia can get the seeking neighbour role, and if a town and mafia get the role then that would mean the role essentially becomes useless as now you're not proving to each other your role by being neighbours, yes? In that case, what does finding your neighbour, bingle, would prove except that you are not a pretender?

I was thinking the same thing. but what jason said makes a lot of sense with the pseudo cop thing. alginments are random and roles are random so I thought it was just designed to cause chaos and I was going to treat like a micro vanilla game.

[Political Clout]

VOTE: Bingle

I have a gut feeling about them right now that just comes down to me feeling like their posts are fake.

can you give an example of one? because to me it's mostly been setup speculation which I read in a past game a long time ago iirc is either not alignment indicative or scum trying to generate posts, but everyone is doing it and it feels like this setup is particularly interesting so I do think it leans on nai since mostly everyone is doing it.

[Political Clout]

I feel a no lim is still our best option. Even with people disagreeing with me. Everyone has a power this game, even if you're a pretender, you're going to do something and get information. Which means everyone is going to be playing for their survival more than to solve today because everyone will be of the opinion they're important and need to see out the day so they can hopefully avoid the NK and get their ability off to save the day for town.

I do however think it's probably more advantageous than my usual "just end the day asap" to spend more time trying to solve the game and get a good feel for everyone so that everyone can target appropriately. We should not lim today.

Contrary to this i believe a no-lim is the worst option. Best outcome is we elim scum, 2/9 chance, and the next best option would be to elim a pretender to reduce the amount of bogus results, as well as clearing the rolelist. Even with a mafia pretender the chance in 1/3, and this is without considering that we will scumhunt raising the probability of a good elim to %100 :wink:

7 Days is plenty of time. We'll find something. And at this point claiming on the spot shouldn't put too much pressure even for important roles per the pretender rolls. We march forward.

I agree we should just revert to site meta look for scum kill scum. but if you believe it's the worst option shouldn't it be alignment indicative to you?

[Political Clout]

Getting a bit frustrated with this, I shan't lie.

I raise a point about the language being used by a player, and how it points to a more informed (read: mafia) perspective, and three of you jump down my throat?

It feels like I'm being told that trying to game-solve is bad and to be honest the votes on me are all significantly worse and reactionary than my votes which have at least had a smidge of thought put into them.

--

I really don't see the value in no-limming D1. That's pretty universal - I would take a no-lim over the lim of someone that I think 99%+ to be town, but that's a pretty rare occurrence.

In this game it still doesn't make sense as a strategy to push a no-lim. We don't need a full playerbase in order to generate information, and to be honest even from a mechanical perspective - shit will be easier to work out if we have less players.

I'm a bit miffed at the focus on mechanical solving in D1 over plain old scumhunting - I do genuinely feel like Merlyn has something to hide on this because of how they described Kowah's actions as Not Scum Indicative, rather than intimating that it isn't certain.

Clearing someone of scumhood through purely meta reeds less than 100 posts into the game just doesn't scream town so my vote is on Merlyn for now.

Those of you with votes on me in particular, I'd encourage you to commit to game solving and telling me why it's worth eliminating me for calling out something I find scummy.

I agree UNVOTE: we are thinking the same thing.

[Political Clout]

I'm getting caught up in the setup spec. Which i think is bad instead I'll focus on initially when I read jason's post I thought or just assumed he was town for some reason so I'll stick with that. I find myself agreeing a lot with people but only about the setup and disagreeing about other things. like when invisibility said that if it was a good plan it's probably to late now? that pinged me on a reread. I also find it odd that invisibility whiteknights merlyn why not let the interaction play through because what delta said was right technically. what's silly about it? but I like invisibilities post 111 where they say why it should be obvious to them in their interaction with jason.

@jason how is 105 wonky? it means i looked it up unstead,shaky, awry, or wrong. are you using wonky differently?

[Political Clout]

I also find it odd that invisibility whiteknights merlyn why not let the interaction play through because what delta said was right technically

do you think I was whiteknighting Kowah too?

no but now that you mention it let me check. I guess it can sorta be seen that way not really? although you don't really interact with kowah at all. which is weird because you're asking me about interacting with kowah. can you explain?

[Political Clout]

*snip*

I agree UNVOTE: we are thinking the same thing.

I find it a smidge suspect how you agree with me in full after being called out for sheeping the vote on me.

I didn't see anyone calling me out I'll go check later. focusing on something else today everyone.

[Political Clout]

*snip*

I agree UNVOTE: we are thinking the same thing.

I find it a smidge suspect how you agree with me in full after being called out for sheeping the vote on me.

Actually,

VOTE: PC

I feel like you're being very reactive here and Delta's 133 resonates. Do you have any reads you feel strongly about?

I can be here tomorrow! it'll help me catch up and focus on this game :).

@delta I really did not see anyone calling me out why are you lying? unless you mean 88 where you don't call anyone out and just tell it how you're feeling that post just felt really genuine to me.

@bingle mostly because I am being reactive I'm essentially writing posts after the town has settled into a lull of not posting but then i start posting and catching up. is that what you mean otherwise if you mean something else I didn't catch your meaning.

I like jason for town and delta slight town
I think you bingle are focusing a lot a lot on the setup slightly scummy. because even you agree with me about playing this like an all vanilla game. makes all your other points a bit moot imo.
I also think donempire is slight scum for saying what he said about no lim being the worst option and not voting kowah.
I'm null on invisibility and merlyn/black since they replaced in at the end.
the kowah slot hasn't really said much except about wanting to no lim do i believe merlyn and appearance about the slot and the no lim being nai? I'm not entirely sure because on it's own I could see that but their posts don't really excite me one way or the other his only actual post is about bingle and voting him and bingle's posts feeling fake. but kowah also said that he doesn't believe in meta so will he always just advocate for a no lim from now on to maintain this weird nai meta? seems like a lot of effort. plus they aren't really trying to solve here if they are committed to the no lim strategy. at least I haven't seen them try to solve.
I forgot appearance was in the game...what does that mean??? I guess null.

[Political Clout]

I will be randomly targeting a player who is not me.

This is the extent of the mechanical discussion we need D1

.

Yeah well so much for that...

do you think it's alignment indicative bingle said they like to review games or are they just enthusiastic about the setup?

[Political Clout]

Delta, why did you answer Invis's question and not mine?

But my statement is backed up by something- Kowah doing this as town in our previous game together. You were actually there too, though you replaced out pretty early, but I think you were still around when Kowah started advocating a D1 no lim policy there too.

I don't like meta reading someone if they are used to doing scummy things as town. The reason people including me were suspect on his no-lim gameplan was because it would be forcing town into hibernation. Playing the game simply in mechanical terms would only benefit scum here. If that is how he plays as town!kowah, then we need to warn him that this helps scum and be suspicious of him anyways as the facts of the matter dont change. And fwiw, i don't buy meta reads, so i'm plainly reading people as per their actions, not their intentions.

I don't believe spitballing ideas itself is scummy. However i don't believe kowah has done enough to convince us of his game plan, which also with him abandoning his no-lim idea as he votes bingle makes it seem as though he wasn't that committed to it in the first place and was just saying it to get some content out.

why didn't you warn kowah then that his actions were helping scum? and I feel like you are assuming a lot in kowah's intentions like he did x so y must be true it doesn't follow logically. In fact his inconsistency does give me pause let me do y but do x instead. I think that itself is worth exploring. at what point does someone go from 'spitballing' to advocating?

@ kowah how attached are you to no limming day 1?

[Political Clout]

But yes, most roles especially roleblockers should be on jingle no matter what.

they should?

Sure, if he is neighbour then he has no use for his night action. If he isn't and is faking it for some reason, then obviously roleblocker should also be on him as he wouldn't be trustworthy.

Besides, roleblocker has a 1/8 chance of stopping the night kill. Much higher likelihood of stopping an usefull role like inspector or loyal checker than stopping mafias kill, meaning we're not giving up an invaluable asset with our n1 roleblock either. Of course all these are assuming a town roleblocker.

Don't you think it would make more sense for the RB to block who they think is scum? I mean yeah if they are wrong then they potentially block a useful role, but I still think that's a better play than blocking someone you townread

alignments are random and roles are random.

[Political Clout]

I'm not going to clutter by quoting a lot but I find it interesting that don says he likes invisibilities post and goes into a huge post about mechanical talk with kowah. feelweirdman.

[Political Clout]

VOTE: donempire

[Political Clout]

Scumread.

VOTE: Kowah

I act like i am waiting on kowahs explanation on how he is town here, but i'm afraid that ship sailed after his last few posts. I was waiting on their action following me pressing them on their strategy to vote them, and they did pretty much what i expected.

I would also say that political clout is a townlean for now. I might elaborate if needed.
Black i would say hasn't posted enough for me to get a definite read, but if i had to i would also put them at a townlean.
Bingle and JW have been too caught up in mechtalk for me to get a good read on them.
Appearence.................... hasn't made an appearence in a long time :cool: so i have no read on them either.

All my other reads haven't changed.

after this much mech talk I'm incline to believe it's alignment indicative but to me the jason mech talk he was content to leave it at his first post on mech talk and was merely answering questions about it that struck me as town bingle has actively and openly engaged in it I think it replaces a lot of content this is just my opinion but that's how I see the situation. do you think it's alignment indicative? what I also don't like is that bingle agreed with me about playing it like an all vanilla game and then continued to do it that is my highest gripe with the mech talk I think.

[Political Clout]

Delta, why did you answer Invis's question and not mine?

But my statement is backed up by something- Kowah doing this as town in our previous game together. You were actually there too, though you replaced out pretty early, but I think you were still around when Kowah started advocating a D1 no lim policy there too.

I don't like meta reading someone if they are used to doing scummy things as town. The reason people including me were suspect on his no-lim gameplan was because it would be forcing town into hibernation. Playing the game simply in mechanical terms would only benefit scum here. If that is how he plays as town!kowah, then we need to warn him that this helps scum and be suspicious of him anyways as the facts of the matter dont change. And fwiw, i don't buy meta reads, so i'm plainly reading people as per their actions, not their intentions.

I don't believe spitballing ideas itself is scummy. However i don't believe kowah has done enough to convince us of his game plan, which also with him abandoning his no-lim idea as he votes bingle makes it seem as though he wasn't that committed to it in the first place and was just saying it to get some content out.

why didn't you warn kowah then that his actions were helping scum? and I feel like you are assuming a lot in kowah's intentions like he did x so y must be true it doesn't follow logically. In fact his inconsistency does give me pause let me do y but do x instead. I think that itself is worth exploring. at what point does someone go from 'spitballing' to advocating?

@ kowah how attached are you to no limming day 1?

I would hammer it right now if I could.

Also another News Flash for Bingle, outing the Pretenders early, isn't actually good for town.

Isn't this literally impossible to do without their flips? Not even scum can know who is a pretender until the flip. In fact, one of the scum could even be a pretender. So this post seems very odd.

I mean, technically we could massclaim, determine which roles contained pretender slots lim one of those roles and have a pretty good shot at publicly outing pretenders on D2. That would also be a very stupid plan.

I guess what scares me most, and is likely entirely unavoidable, is the potential of lost information this game. It's going to happen, and I just don't want it to. Reading this post makes me no longer feel a mass claim is a good idea today. I stand by a no lim.

There is a disconnect in your thought process here. You say you would hammer a no-lim right now but then you go on to say that you don't really want to lose information this game. Do you not consider ending the Day on page 10 a loss of information? Because I do. Cutting discussion short like this would only benefit scum

do you think the disconnect is scum because you are pretty brutal with admonishing him but don't assign a town/scum value. why not?

[Political Clout]

i like voting don empire because jason was voting don empire I don't like voting donempire because kowahbunga is voting him makes me want to get off the wagon. I don't like that don empire suddenly voted kowah back after all the hemming and hawwing about the slot. that is a bit about what im feeling right now.

[Political Clout]

This post really seems like you are trying to make a case when it isn't there Black.

How? There's a contradiction in Kowah's words and his actions. I don't think I'm fabricating anything about that

And I do like PC's question here.

I don't understand why...I think it's pretty obvious how I feel about Kowah

I don't think you should discount your original position Dr. if how you felt is x it is incorrect for black to say well I felt y a long time ago it doesn't change the fact of the interaction in fact it makes your observation more relevant imo.

[Political Clout]

do you think the disconnect is scum because you are pretty brutal with admonishing him but don't assign a town/scum value. why not?

No offense but are you reading my posts? I haven't liked Kowah since I replaced in. I had him at the bottom of my reads list after my catch up and I'm voting for him. I think the disconnect is probably scum, yeah, and I don't think I'm being brutal about it like you're claiming

okay...but I still stand by my post let's say I agree that you aren't being harsh. what is the point of your post then because it really isn't clear. let's even say that everything you said about kowah in the post was true. it still doesn't answer how you actually feel about it. If i say this post indicates x. it doesn't really say anything without me also saying therefore y must be true.

[Political Clout]

I don't think you should discount your original position Dr. if how you felt is x it is incorrect for black to say well I felt y a long time ago it doesn't change the fact of the interaction in fact it makes your observation more relevant imo.

Did you miss my reads post too or what? Because it kinda feels like you were trying to shade me for no reason just now

I remember that you had jason and kowah at the bottom but your interactions with the good Dr here don't equate to your read of the slot. feels very non confrontational. I was asking for clarification and pointing something out that I think is relevant and trying to solve the game no shade did it out in the open and asked you directly.

[Political Clout]

I don't think it's relevant at all but we can agree to disagree I guess

That is one fair question they had.

Did your read on Jason change after your reads list(I just went back in your iso to check it out).

And did my entrance change your read.

I'm sorry but I don't consider "why didn't you explicitly say you scumread this" a fair question

I didn't really like his responses to me or to Bingle. His replacing out caught me off guard and I usually lean on the side of that being townie, so that throws me off. I would personally never replace out of a scum game but I can't really say the same for everyone. I think there's a decent possibility the solve is just Kowah/Jason(You) and in that world, maybe Jason replaced out because I called them out as soon as I replaced in

I thought it was weird how you didn't mention Kowah at all until I asked you about him, and then it seemed like you rode the fence a little with your response. "I could vote for him but I always think he's scum" seems like you're trying to get on the wagon without actually getting on. I don't really like it tbh

but it is a fair one. if someone says w and then you say hey buddy you are doing x here you are saying y but also saying z. do you think a is true because I do in fact doing a is scum. you say nothing of actual value and it feels like you are just posting to post. as x y and z are a completely different conversation than a. imo.

[Political Clout]

I feel like 80% of your posts have been about mech talk lol

I mean... Assuming you classify pointing out JW talking out of both sides of his mouth about my claim as mech talk that sounds about right. It's actually kind of baffling to me that you, pc, and don all seem to think that I'm reverting to mech when my mech has basically all been an avenue of scumhunting and I feel like I've been dragged into a lot of it.

that's just not true you seem really eager to do it or am I wrong?

[Political Clout]

but it is a fair one. if someone says w and then you say hey buddy you are doing x here you are saying y but also saying z. do you think a is true because I do in fact doing a is scum. you say nothing of actual value and it feels like you are just posting to post. as x y and z are a completely different conversation than a. imo.

I'm sorry but I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. I think saying I'm posting just to post feels pretty disingenuous though. I'm trying to solve and there's meaning behind my questions even if you don't see them

then what's the point of your post to kowah talking about disconnect? because it doesn't go anywhere and you don't take it anywhere unless i'm wrong.

[Political Clout]

PC what is your mafia experience?

let's say i'm a newer player what would you say and let's say i'm an experienced player what would you say? because I'm going to be open and tell you right now that I think you are going nowhere with this question and i'm going to circle it back around and say just like with kowah you didn't go anywhere and didn't take it anywhere. ultimately how does it help you solve my slot?

[Political Clout]

but it is a fair one. if someone says w and then you say hey buddy you are doing x here you are saying y but also saying z. do you think a is true because I do in fact doing a is scum. you say nothing of actual value and it feels like you are just posting to post. as x y and z are a completely different conversation than a. imo.

I'm sorry but I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. I think saying I'm posting just to post feels pretty disingenuous though. I'm trying to solve and there's meaning behind my questions even if you don't see them

then what's the point of your post to kowah talking about disconnect? because it doesn't go anywhere and you don't take it anywhere unless i'm wrong.

It hasn't gone anywhere because it was a statement to Kowah and they haven't responded. Give it time...relax!

huh? objectively this is wrong. what could kowah say about your post that would take it somewhere? like there is a certain finality to your post. kowah you are disconnected ending the day on page 10 is scum drop mic and the former part of the post has nothing to do with the latter part of it. I stand by what I said feels like you are just posting to post and not doing anything with it.

[Political Clout]

Hey screw you buddy, my original account on here was from 2011.

But Black, you asked me about Don, what are your feelings on them?

The 2011 thing was to Political Clout. I thought he was a newer player. The fact that he's more experienced makes me feel worse about his push on me

I think Don feels townie in his thought processes. I like his reads and his approach to the game. And like I said before I think his wagon has scum on it

what is townie about his thought process can you quote something or point something out you thought was townie? i dislike that you say in a certain post that x and y is scum then say slot z is town therefore X and Y and A might be scum when you were already scum reading the slots. is don town independently or is he town because scum is on his wagon? it's not clear.

[Political Clout]

that's just not true you seem really eager to do it or am I wrong?

I have a hard time not engaging mech talk because it's like... my existence on site. I genuinely don't want to talk mech in this case because the more we talk about mech D1 the more scum can glean from said talk and try to mitigate the benefits of our PRs when we do hit claim day.

I also think that I don't really have a choice in doing so when my biggest scumread at the moment is a result of someone arguing what I see to be mutually exclusive mech points.

so you are eager to talk about it? fair enough. how has your mech talk been an avenue of scum hunting because I'm not seeing it. let's start solving then. what do you think of my interaction with black do you see what I'm seeing or am i crazy?

[Political Clout]

I'm vaguely okay with Black's content at the moment, but that could be a playstyle thing. I think she's being pretty reasonable with her interactions with people, and also I've liked a few of her takes, but that could well be that I'm wrong about things and she's taking advantage of it.

I think JW arguing that something is simultaneously mechanically proscum to push me and mechanically protown to make the thing more mechanically proscum is scum indicative. I think that's pretty clear from my posting?

Honestly, I've been kind of glazing over your back and forth with Black tonight and if I were to try and give it a read atm I'd say it feels like a TvT, but that's also not fair at all to the interaction because I'm burned out from 11 hours at work and skipping lunch, so I'll get back to you when my brain is a little bit less of a pile of mush. If you want, you could give me a teal dear of what you're picking up and I can give you an impression, but I'm certainly going to read it more closely tomorrow.

going to agree on black here
she's been really trying to poke and prod

can you give me an example of where and how you thought that was particularly townie.

[Political Clout]

Abnegation replaces Deltabreedy

welcome what do you think of black?

so far a lot of people that is my feeling has said it's town v town. I think I can institute wisdom of the crowds here and say I'm wrong I would like fresh eyes to look at the interaction and see what they say first.

[Political Clout]

gg ty for carry black