Micro 65: No Town Lynched (Game Over)

[RedCoyote]

F16, why did you hammer before letting all the players in the game post? I don't mind quick days, but only to a point. I hadn't even logged in before the first day was over. I like to think I can read mykonian fairly well. I've successfully caught him as scum and correctly read him as town on two separate occasions. I'm not saying this to brag; I just want to know why you thought my input was unnecessary.

[RedCoyote]

Okay. Please understand that I'm not trying to beat you over the head with this, it just really set us back, I think. I'll read over the game tomorrow most likely given that I've got football to watch today.

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, I'm going to put this off another day myself. I'm a little buzzed and want to do this with a clear mind. I know it's only six pages, but I want to be able to give Thor and Nacho a good once over.

[RedCoyote]

Vote: mykonian

that's forced as helllll.

Vote: Mykonian

L-1 on Myrk.
Trololololol.

One of these two players took advantage of mykonian's situation. Which one was it? I'll be reading the rest of the game with this in mind.

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unvote

. we don't want no hammer on page 1.

shos is the first to back off. Thor continues to press on. This could go either way. I'm inclined to think shos is more likely trying to score points here though.

observation: nobody notices such a thing. nobody even does such things as mafia. seriously, only like supernewwwbs will think that saying 'i am town' , no matter how indirect the way of saying it is, helps.

But he didn't say "i am town". This is unnecessary exaggeration, I think.

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By itself, I think the case is rather weak for a lynch.

Oh, dear. And you ended up hammering him?

Hope he flips scum.

You hope he flips scum, hm? How did you go from post 30 to post 38? I don't understand.

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there were 5 people voting you, why am *I* the scum one?

Please. Knock it off with the "why me?" crap.

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I can try to slow down for you if you need me to, but this isn't a Newbie and judging by your join date I have no idea why you're acting so shocked about the lynch.

This is a good point.

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It seems to me like a scum-strategy to elicit reactions from the other townies. Call someone obv-town and hope that the others are flabbergasted enough to say "No! how is he obvtown? Vote F-16." This of course would allow you to distance from a lynch.

Despite all the WIFOM in this post, I actually like this point against Thor. It's well thought out.

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A couple of possibilities for you here;

1. You are town and I am town - I have an accurate read, rejoice!
2. You are scum and I am town - Bwa-ha, you fooled me, rejoice!
3. You are town and I am scum - I have limited my ability to mislynch you later, rejoice!

So...?

Uh, no... This is a team game, Thor. Not an individual game. F16 is less concerned about how he does individually and more concerned about how his team does. So, I mean, just because your read happens to be accurate or not means precisely dick. It's how you arrived at that read that counts.

Scum can say a player is obvtown because they know the setup. Town can say a player is obvtown because of an argument. Are both players right? Technically yes, but they arrived to those conclusions for completely different reasons. This is just the kind of three card monte trick I'd expect from you as scum.

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RedCoyote sort of reads town I guess?

Why? I haven't said anything of value. In fact, I've been lurking pretty hard comparitively (not intentionally, but if I were Nacho I would use that argument anyways).

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There's also motivation for town to not hammer like this, and there's also motivation for scum TO hammer like this.

I think I agree with this. At least, I can reasonably see shos making this argument.

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@Nach- Greg and FF are town reads for you, I'll go out on a limb that you think you are town. You don't even glance at me. Discuss.

This is correct.

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reaaaaallly not getting how you're giving nacho a solid townread. terrible reasons.

you really shouldn't be using PoE this way. PoE is for finding scum, not town. if you don't have flips, that doesn't work.

I really, really, really like this point.

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No way the Myk wagon was all town - I agree with this. I think Thor is the scum on the wagon and you are the scum off the wagon.

Do you necessarily think there has to be scum on and off the wagon? I agree there was at least one scum on the wagon, but I think two is just as likely.

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of course if you can have nobody suspect oyu forever it's all good, but that never happens. the good strategy is to get people to see you as TOWN. being null isn't good enough, and you're speaking like a newbie

But is he speaking like scum?

[RedCoyote]

Okay, well, those were my notes taken as I read through the game. I've got a solid feel for the game now, and I'm pretty sure the scum are Thor & Nacho. If I'm wrong about one of them, substitute shos in.

F16 reads completely town. Not just the quickhammer, but the thoughtful way with which he's trying to make up for it. I was upset at first, but I found that his most recent posts are genuine. Greg's posts don't give off a calculating vibe to them. I also think he's being sufficiently hard on Thor and not sheeping his way through the game. Why either of these players aren't voting is suspect, but I'm going to overlook that with the hopes that their purposefully waiting on me to come in and participate. At the beginning of the game I was pretty sure that there was one scum between Thor and shos. Over time, especially with Thor's slight-of-hand trickery, I've become more convinced that Thor is the guilty party. His post 106 was probably the tipping point for me. It was written with a purposeful intent at oversimplifying a complex issue. It was done to manipulate F16 in a very casual, subtle way. That it didn't work on him is great. Nacho seems scummy for a couple of reasons. He's blatantly ignored Thor this game, and his read on me is suspect given that I haven't done anything. But, really, that was the connection. Thor is lightly pushing Nacho while keeping shos looking like the actual bad guy for F16, Greg, and me. He's probably setting it up to eventually and "reluctantly" coming off the Nacho wagon for lack of interest. BUT, should that plan not go through, and Nacho actually get lynched. Well, Thor is the prophet who called Nacho scum from the word go. Of course, he would prefer the former outcome (it's never fun to be the lone scum to fight through 3 days), but Thor is capable of doing either. The fact that Nacho is ignoring Thor tells me that I'm onto something.

I could potentially see a Thor-shos partnership, but I think that's less likely and more complicated. I don't see a Nacho-shos partnership. I think Nacho is pushing shos too hard. Greg is probably the wild card, but I'm going with some instinct here when I say that he comes off as town.

Vote: Thor665

[RedCoyote]

No, I was pretty clear that I didn't see Nacho-shos as partners.

I don't see a Nacho-shos partnership.

To your second point, I don't think you did. At least not in the way you're framing it. You went off into a tangent about shos' attempts to use ongoing games (which Nacho coincidentally picked up for you) in one instance. The only other time I see you mentioning it again is when Nacho parroted it back at you, to which you rightfully pointed out that it wouldn't apply from Nacho to you.

[RedCoyote]

At this point, I think the possible scumteams, in order of likelihood, are:

Thor-Nacho
Thor-shos
Thor-Greg
Greg-Nacho
Greg-shos
Nacho-shos

So quit trying to take yourself out of the equation.

And you're misunderstanding me. I'm not talking about your read on F16. I'm talking about the way with which you presented it to F16. I mean, that's the whole point I was getting at.

Like, look, you're telling F16 that he should see you as town because either you have an accurate read on him, he fooled you into thinking you had an accurate read on him, or you "limited your ability to mislynch him". My problem with the way you set these scenarios up are that they don't take into account how you arrived at the townread. Yeah, you said why in post 73, but you're alluding to the idea that F16 should see you as town regardless based on his own self-interest rather than what's in his team's interest. F16 being right or wrong doesn't matter. I mean, it's nice and it'll help, but ultimately what matters is that his team succeeds. So you're coming at him, like, oh, one of three things is right, either we're both town, so don't worry about it, or you're scum that has me fooled, so don't worry about it, or I'm scum but it's helping you anyways so don't worry about it. It's that third scenario especially that is just so uber-slickster. That third outcome is just primo used car salesman Thor at work. You're basically saying that if you're scum and F16's town then you are still doing F16 a favor by calling him town. But, really, you're not. You're doing yourself a favor through trying to get F16 to shake your hand and acknowledge what a great deal he's getting in both of you calling one another town. He knows his alignment, but he doesn't know yours.

Anyways, that was probably one of the most confusing, rambling paragraphs I've ever had to write. Suffice it to say that you're putting on a cute little show for F16 to get him to call you town. You then proceed to vote Nacho while pushing shos as hard as you can. That's why you and Nacho as a team makes so much sense to me. You don't want Nacho to be lynched, but if he does, you're hedging your bets for plan B. Riding that "oh, I was so smart to foresee Nacho as scum and F16 as town that I am obvtown" train.

I hope this is making some sense, F16.

Yes, I am purposefully ignoring Thor right now. Why does this make me likelier scum? Do you tend to ignore strong players while you're scum?

Because I think Thor is scum. The second question is misleading, it depends on the circumstances. It always depends on the circumstances.

[RedCoyote]

Or maybe Nacho and no Thor and no Shos.

This is you trying to take yourself out of the equation. I made it very clear that I saw you and Nacho as my most likely scumteam, you and shos as my alternative, and Nacho and shos as the unlikely one. There are no other possible combinations. This isn't complicated.

You said it was because I was avoiding explaining that read though...

I didn't say it was because you were avoiding explaining that read. Again, you're oversimplifying. You were taking something complex and trying to use it to manipulate F16. You can sit there and say you don't care what he thinks of you, but that's just not accurate.

[RedCoyote]

If that is me trying to take myself out of the equation then *you* tried to take me out of the equation with your last list because you also had slots not involving me...explain?

Those teams are in order of likelihood, and you're in the top three. I didn't use "gakked up language". I was very clear.

And there's nothing wrong with the latter issue. That's not why I'm getting on your case. It's because of the way you presented it to F16.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, and yeah, your language was gakked up because you said Thor.Nacho with Shos if wrong about either - but really meant Thor/Nacho or Thor/Shos, or Nacho, but not with Shos or Thor. So, why say the initial thing where Shos was buddy with either if wrong about the other?

Because I was reading this game and trying to figure it out. You're being pedantic. I've allowed this whole argument to go on entirely too long.

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@ RedCoyote, I get what you are saying regarding Thor's post to me. He says that if he is scum, and I town, I should rejoice since he made it more difficult for himself to mislynch me. But that's not all there is to it since he doesn't account for the fact that if he were scum, part of my goal as town is to lynch him - not just rejoice.

Right, that's exactly what I mean.

I still think the other scum is Shos because Thor argues with Shos while voting Nacho. Shos argues with Thor while voting me. It seems like they are distancing from each other while going after two different townies. That as a scum strategy makes more sense tome than voting your scumbuddy and arguing with a townie.

I can support Thor > shos > Nacho, depending on the flips and the reactions we get to them.

Also, I don't understand why Nacho wouldn't try to make me look suspicious if he was scum. He would know that a townie (Shos) is going after me, he can see that Greg is at least marginally suspicious of me. He wouldn't have known that RedCoyote had a townread on me since he made that post before RedCoyote's catch up post. It doesn't make sense that he would go for Shos.

I'm connecting him to Thor as scum, I suppose. That's why I don't necessarily see the Nacho-shos partnership as likely. I explained why I thought Thor was voting Nacho while actually spreading his support elsewhere. I also don't like Nacho's reads whatsoever, nor his ignoring Thor.

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he just put Gregory as a filler-extra-suspect immediately after calling him a wild card that feels town in 156.

Because what can one do with Greg? He sticks out like a sore thumb. He hasn't bothered anyone and no one has bothered him. He's a complete wild card. If you put a gun to my head, I'd call him town, but I am in no way comfortable with that. Are you?

I'm wishing to lynch either RC or F16 at the moment. there are two votes on thor, can you guys make a nice and well-built case on him? because it seems that you're just, you know, 'generally' finding him scum. that's a scum tactic in my book.

Are you serious? What in the hell does generally finding him scum mean? That he's too scummy to be scum? Get out of here with that. That's the best defense of Thor you can muster? I also love how you said this after you lobbed Thor a softball "kinda made me field weird about thor" comment.

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These two quotes don't make sense by one another if shos is town. If he's town, this is quickhammer #3 in a really short amount of time, and considering it's the thing he was trying to hard to avoid, you'd imagine that he'd be more upset. But instead he's like "TEEHEE WE GOT AN EARLY AS HELL QUICKHAMMER", which makes no fucking sense based on his unvote, his reaction to F-16 initially hammering (which was definitely scum posturing, by the way), and his post IMMEDIATELY BEFORE THIS ONE. It looks more like scum taunting because he got a free mislynch and feels pretty strongly that he has another one.

This is a very solid point. Very reasonable assumption.

This coupled with shos' rash behavior and Thor defense in post 173 makes me suspect him more than you now.

It reassures me that both RedCoyote and Gregory questioned my townreads on them when I gave them. RedCoyote *rarely* finds me town when we're playing together, and Gregory should know my townplay enough to know that I wasn't trying to fake a townread on him as scum to draw him out, so it's just ridiculously reassuring that neither of them accepted my townread on him.

Call me a sucker, but I'll buy it.

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I see Thor is L-1, nacho is L-2. Both on top of my scumlist allready. both voting eachoter. I don't see them being a team, while I'm pretty sure one of them is scum. So, kinda like 50/50 to me right now. Will read them in Iso.

If they're not a team, then I suspect Thor and shos as a team far and away above all else. Given that Greg didn't hammer Thor here, I'm a little more suspicious that Thor is a likely scumGreg buddy. All the more reason I want Thor gone. I can see him as partners to shos, Nacho, or Greg.

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Also when the supporters are FF's "case" and Red Coyotes' case wherein I'm scum because of my interactions with Nacho...who is scum.

That's only one (fairly insignificant) part. It actually has more to do with Nacho than it does you. Further, F16 doesn't even suspect Nacho as your buddy.

[RedCoyote]

Prods? The game opened less than 20 hours from the time you made that post.

Vote: shos

Easy choice. Remaining scum are probably shos-Greg. What's up, shos? Here we go again, player.

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, I realize that's L-1. I also realize that Nacho-shos aren't scum together. Let's do this, F16. Go with what you know is right here.

[RedCoyote]

The main reason I'm voting shos, F16, is that I am pretty darn confident that you and Nacho are town (which only leaves me one option). Apparently I was wrong about Thor. Poor, poor, Thor. I hope he'll forgive me.

[RedCoyote]

See towards the end of this post.

I agree with him on his read on me now. I think he explained himself well. I also very strongly agree with his points against shos. I fundamentally do not think shos and Nacho can be partners in any case. Lastly, I said at the very beginning of this game given the mykonian wagon that I thought at least one of shos and Thor was scum (possibly both, I thought, but obviously that can't be the case now... I still think one of them has to be scum though).

[RedCoyote]

It has to be Greg.

[RedCoyote]

Could be. Could be you're playing possum with us. I don't think either of those scenarios are likely though, F16.

Don't take what I say so literally. You're sounding like MoI now.

[RedCoyote]

I'm not going to hammer Nacho, ffs. I think you and him are town.

[RedCoyote]

Loved the flavor, Mod!

I really enjoyed this game. I felt like I had a pretty good hand on it, my Thor read notwithstanding. I enjoyed playing with everyone here! I wish I would've got to play with mykonian though. He's a favorite of mine. I was probably most impressed with F16's attention to detail. I'm also very glad that me and Nacho got on the same page. It just clicked for us this time.

So gg all! Thank you for the good game, Mod.