Micro 65: No Town Lynched (Game Over)

[shos]

There's also motivation for town to not hammer like this, and there's also motivation for scum TO hammer like this.

I have no idea what post 118 means, to whom it is directed, and what it wants, so if I'm one of those, rephrase >_>


Can someone explain to me why me-not-voting-thor makes me scum in your eyes? I'm voting F16, reasons should be clear?? the thor scum case is much more arguable and unsure imo.

@Nacho: tell me how the hell did YOU get to gregory town. I don't get it, and you're not the first. *sigh*
and ffs, go thorugh my meta. yes, he's scum because he quickhammered. have you ever quickhammered as town D1? those 'lately' are still ongoing so I can't talk about them.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho: tell me how the hell did YOU get to gregory town. I don't get it, and you're not the first. *sigh*

I've already talked about this one, so if you're expecting me to go through your meta, the least you could do is go through my posts.

I haven't quickhammered D1 before as scum or town, so that's a bit irrelevant. I've seen scum quickhammers and I've seen town quickhammers though, so quickhammering as a tell just isn't good enough for me. Will look through your meta, though.

[Thor665]

I have no idea what post 118 means, to whom it is directed, and what it wants, so if I'm one of those, rephrase >_>

It's to you - I don't understand how you don't understand it but I'll try a rephrase for kicks.

He accuses people of convoluted plans - town or scum that suggests he plays via convoluted plans when scum himself because either he thinks it's reasonable to accuse someone of them, or he is being honest and really thinks like that.

You are accusing him of a very much *not* convoluted scum plan.

Connect the two concepts for me.


@Nach- Greg and FF are town reads for you, I'll go out on a limb that you think you are town. You don't even glance at me. Discuss.

M0ar Nacho votes pl0x!

Quote tag fixed. (Equinox)

[Thor665]

@Nacho - also, if you *are* going through Shos' stuff, I'll want to know if some of those speed hammerers have been flipped. Y'know, to prove he has any leg to stand on at all.

That saves me from having to read through any of those games, huzzah!

[Nachomamma8]

shos is bullshitting hard

Confirm Vote: shos

die scum die
gonna PM the mod to see what is acceptable and what is not, but holy shit

[Nachomamma8]

Greg and FF are town reads for you, I'll go out on a limb that you think you are town. You don't even glance at me. Discuss.

I'd rather not.
If I'm ignoring you and
1. You are town and I am town - I'm not voting you, rejoice!
2. You are scum and I am town - Easier to mislynch me, rejoice!
3. You are town and I am scum - More ammunition for your ironclad case on me, rejoice!

[Nachomamma8]

If the moderator doesn't let me post what I have to say, I do have this for you:

Saying that your experience with ongoing games makes quickhammering suddenly a definite scumtell is not an acceptable defense for me. If you really do believe as much, then I expect you to be able to back that shit up with completed games (there are plenty of them on this site). I've seen a few quickhammers here and there, but they aren't always or even usually by scum.

[Equinox]

Vote Count 2.02

F-16_Fighting_Falcon (1) - shos
Nachomamma8 (1) - Thor665
shos (1) - Nachomamma8

Not Voting (3) - F-16_Fighting_Falcon, Gregory, RedCoyote

With 6 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

The deadline is Friday, November 16, 2012, at 8:10 PM EST (UTC-5).

Mod Notes

Friendly reminder: Please do not discuss ongoing games. Thanks.

[shos]

@thor: I do not understand what accusation I made that is so twisted and complex in your opinion that would make that first sentence logical to this case. my 'case' is based solely on that quickhammer until something else happens that would make me feel someone else is more worthy of a vote. there's really nothing complex here. (offtopic: if complex/twisted is not what you meant, then I have no idea what 'convoluted' is, I used a dictionary -_-)

@Nacho:
what am I bullshitting about? o__O? I've stated my line of thoughts to you right now, and no, I do not have any completed games which included a quickhammer on D1. what doy ou expect me to do? read thorugh all the games onsite and search for something that works for me?? I don't read (long) games that I'm not in, you know. and how the hell does that make me scum in your eyes.

[Thor665]

Greg and FF are town reads for you, I'll go out on a limb that you think you are town. You don't even glance at me. Discuss.

I'd rather not.
If I'm ignoring you and
1. You are town and I am town - I'm not voting you, rejoice!
2. You are scum and I am town - Easier to mislynch me, rejoice!
3. You are town and I am scum - More ammunition for your ironclad case on me, rejoice!

Not the same thing - unless you're saying the Myrk wagon was pure town.

@thor: I do not understand what accusation I made that is so twisted and complex in your opinion that would make that first sentence logical to this case. my 'case' is based solely on that quickhammer until something else happens that would make me feel someone else is more worthy of a vote. there's really nothing complex here. (offtopic: if complex/twisted is not what you meant, then I have no idea what 'convoluted' is, I used a dictionary -_-)

I was talking about FF's case on me, not your case on him - it would make no sense to use your case on him to explain how he would think as scum.
Make sense now?

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho:
what am I bullshitting about? o__O? I've stated my line of thoughts to you right now, and no, I do not have any completed games which included a quickhammer on D1. what doy ou expect me to do? read thorugh all the games onsite and search for something that works for me?? I don't read (long) games that I'm not in, you know. and how the hell does that make me scum in your eyes.

Your belief that quickhammers automatically equal scum is not something that can be backed up by your experience, so I think that you know better and tried to point me towards discussing ongoing games in order to shut down discussion. You don't have to do ANYTHING as far as defending yourself because you are essentially confirmed scum in my mind (not a term I use often, trust me) and will be today's lynch.

[Gregory]

Dumb scum would immediately go after someone who quickhammers and try to get them lynched. If that player defends himself and the Day is open long enough, town would eventually realize that the hammerer was town and scum are trying to use that hammer to get him lynched.

Smart scum wouldn't do that. They would call the hammerer obv-town to elicit frustrated reactions from the other townies who would hopefully pressure the hammerer.

agreed. What if smart scum would be the hammerer? That would give scum a pretty good reason to vote any of the bobs attacking him. thats win win, just need balls or brains.

but then again, I don't see you and thor together, and i don't like him a bit.

Vote Count 1.01

mykonian (4) - Gregory, Thor665, Nachomamma8, F-16_Fighting_Falcon

Thor665 (1) - mykonian[/area]

so the lynch. 4 guys on, 2 guys off (of which 1 is myk) 1 not having posted yet.
At least 1 scum on the wagon. of all the votes, nacho's seemed the weirdest. ye, that hammer was weird as hell, but at least it had a reason (kinda). putting someone at l-1 just for the sake of it?

nacho finding me obv town seems strange, as we tunneled last game 24/7 on eachother. I know, it shouldn't matter. new game etc. Still, him calling me obv-town might be a way to dodge that situation.

Dumb scum would immediately go after someone who quickhammers and try to get them lynched. If that player defends himself and the Day is open long enough, town would eventually realize that the hammerer was town and scum are trying to use that hammer to get him lynched.

Smart scum wouldn't do that. They would call the hammerer obv-town to elicit frustrated reactions from the other townies who would hopefully pressure the hammerer.

This is sort of what I was expecting if Falcon was town. A player that's too confident for his own good who expects he can defend himself and draw out scum with what would be considered a classically scummy move, but isn't to him because he thinks that good things will come out of it. He's not voting right now AND he's attacking someone who has an obvtown read on him, and meanwhile hasn't really formed any strong reads at all. It all adds up to being super fucking confident that he won't be lynched because he just doesn't give a fuck.

you've played with f-16 before? Do you know him well? Is his scumplay calculated or impulsive?

not voting nacho yet, don't like the idea of being on a wagon with thor. tomorrow more. would like to see redcobalt's view on the game so far.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Okay, Nacho is town.

So far:

- He has a townread on me (terrible strategy to fake a townread on me as scum considering how suspicious I am of Thor. Nacho reading the DP would know that it could potentially make me suspect him more.

- He is ignoring Thor's vote and going ahead and making a new enemy for himself (Shos).

He is basically putting himself in a position where I might be suspicious of him, Thor wouldn't get off his back, and Shos might OMGUS him. None of his actions make sense from a scum perspective. But I can see it from a town's perspective as genuine.

So, one solid town-read on Nacho, two leaning scum reads on Shos and Thor.

Gregory & RedCoyote would be town to me by POE if I am right about Shos and Thor. I'd still like to hear more from them and I am looking forward to seeing RedCoyote's views as well.

@ Greg, why do you think Nacho would fake a town-read on me as scum?

[shos]

ohhhhh now I understand what you're saying. Well not quite agreeing tho. The fact that my accusation of him is simple doesn't mean that his strategy is simple. just by using the wifom that has already been caused, which made at least two people consider him obvtown - foreseeing this is a start for a convoluted plan. you have a good eye for seeing the comparison, but I think taht is no way to negate my point on him.

also, absolutely no way that the myrk wagon was entirely town. no way in hell. 7p, 4 on a lynch, 1 lynched, 2 scum? odds are like, negative.

@nacho: " you are essentially confirmed scum in my mind " - woah, a little leap you took there eh? so me not backing up my thought about the quickhammer with any finished games makes me confscum??? are you seriously that dense or is that just your way of pressuring people? XD dude, I'm not playing such an amazingly complex game in here like MoI or someone; I'm not such a vet on this site to have knowledge of dozens of games to quote for you. you're going WAAAAAAY too far. too EAGER. you sure you're town?

PFFT FINALLY a post from gregor!! now all we need is RC to post and together they might get to the amount of posts by the mod! -_- now let's read lol
@gregor: in that game you spoke about what were either of your's alignments? can you link us/summarize or something?

@F16: I'm not following your line of thoughts. he has a townread on you, which makes him town? seriously? U MAD BRO?
how is ignoring thor's vote and attacking me a towntell?? deflecting much?
and that third sentence, wtf. he puts himself where you might suspect him(aka, in the game -_-), thor won't get off(aka, alive) and shos might OMGUS him(??? where the hell did you get that)(if he voted anyone else would it be different?).

reaaaaallly not getting how you're giving nacho a solid townread. terrible reasons.

you really shouldn't be using PoE this way. PoE is for finding scum, not town. if you don't have flips, that doesn't work.

I know this was directed at greg but, why wouldn't he fake a townread on you? buddying, towncred from you, other people are easier to hunt, etc etc.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Shos, I cannot believe you are town. I just can't. You have basically ignored everything I have said, you have ignored the reasoning for my conclusions and continue arguing along those lines. Let's take this a bit slowly:

- No way the Myk wagon was all town - I agree with this. I think Thor is the scum on the wagon and you are the scum off the wagon.

- I don't think Nacho is town for the mere fact that he has a townread on me. I think he is town because he has a townread on me despite knowing that buddying me probably won't do him any good. Let's go through this step by step:

a) Thor says F-16 is town.
b) F-16 questions town read on him, and FOSses Thor and says Thor is scum.
c) Nacho says F-16 is town.

Why would Nacho do that as scum if he knew the likely response from me (question his read and call him scum)? As scum, a good strategy is not have town suspect you, yet Nacho performs actions which when performed by another player resulted in them being suspected. It doesn't make sense as a scum strategy. As town on the other hand, it could be a genuine townread with him not caring whether I suspect him or not. Finding scum and finding town are higher priorities to townies than looking town to others. Nacho's priorities align with those of town's.

why wouldn't he fake a townread on you? buddying, towncred from you, other people are easier to hunt, etc etc.

Thor claimed a townread on me and hot me to suspect him. Why would Nacho expect towncred from me for faking a townread?

Ignoring Thor's vote and attacking you is a towntell because as town, he made a second enemy while ignoring someone suspecting him. If Nacho were scum and you and Thor are town for instance, Nacho would know that since you and Thor are arguing, going after Thor would get you on his side since you have Thor as a "second suspect." He could get one person on his side while attacking another. The fact that he chose to attack you and turn both you and Thor against him makes me believe he doesn't care about forming alliances but rather attacks who he thinks is scum. This in combination with calling me a townread (a third potential enemy based on my suspicion of Thor who had a townread on me) makes literally zero sense as scum.

Shos, do you get what I am saying or are you going to continue to ignore the reasoning? I am highly concerned that you have completely and absolutely

ignored

as opposed to addressed my reasoning while attacking my conclusions?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Thor claimed a townread on me and

got

me to suspect him. Why would Nacho expect towncred from me for faking a townread?

Spelling error. Mod, could you possibly fix this?

[shos]

second hyphen - "despite knowing that buddying me probably won't do him any good." I dunno, seems like it did, right? when he buddied you he didn't say "I am buddying you DESPITE KNOWING THAT BLA BLA". what he did was regardless of knowing or not knowing, you're being absurd. scum have the need to look town; they can do practically anything if they think it'll help. in this specific case, Thor did it first, so doing it too would be just about the same as getting in line behind thor, so why not?

"A good strategy is not have town suspect you" - plain wrong. of course if you can have nobody suspect oyu forever it's all good, but that never happens. the good strategy is to get people to see you as TOWN. being null isn't good enough, and you're speaking like a newbie. I believe I've already asked you whose alt are you?
Anyway back to context. so what you're saying is that anything that will draw attention to you is not something that scum would do. ever. right? kinda self-applicable-wifom you got yourself there eh?

"Thor claimed a townread on me and hot me to suspect him. Why would Nacho expect towncred from me for faking a townread? "
You are literally fighting yourself here. what you say is this.
A did X and Y happened.
B, did X too then, and then Z happened, because why would B do X if his target is getting Z and not Y?

circular variable dependency detected, error, COMSOL cancelled computation. do you understand why you've supplied the ammo against your argument?
in short: you say doing X won't result in a townread, so why would he do X? hence I give him a townread. I say, but alas! now he's done X and got a townread! circular varia--- *slap* X______X
~~~
bout that next paragraph: I suspect both of them, thor suspects both of us, and nacho only suspects me. if he only suspected thor, it'd be exactly, PRECISELY, the same. about YOU, well, see circular variable dependency mentioned above.

[Nachomamma8]

so the lynch. 4 guys on, 2 guys off (of which 1 is myk) 1 not having posted yet.
At least 1 scum on the wagon. of all the votes, nacho's seemed the weirdest. ye, that hammer was weird as hell, but at least it had a reason (kinda). putting someone at l-1 just for the sake of it?

4 on, 3 off.
I've always found it a better idea to pressure for the sake of it as opposed to not pressuring for the sake of it. It's more likely to end the RVS if you put a wagon at L-1 and force people to respond to that as opposed to being overly cautious about quickhammers and backing off early. The only thing that comes from that is a loss of momentum and I didn't want to mess around with waiting for this game to start all that much.

nacho finding me obv town seems strange, as we tunneled last game 24/7 on eachother. I know, it shouldn't matter. new game etc. Still, him calling me obv-town might be a way to dodge that situation.

I didn't call you obv-town; I called you town. I also am usually pretty cautious about calling people scum that I've misread pretty fucking recently; look at my play with myk in that game we just got done playing him together. Replaced in, called him obvtown, and even when Deas came out with that result on him, I still had a tiny little bit of faith in him being town. I didn't have a scumread on you that I decided to ignore this game, though. I think I just found you scum because I was having a shit game and not because our playstyles clash or anything.

you've played with f-16 before? Do you know him well? Is his scumplay calculated or impulsive?

Nah. I was referring more to a general playstyle.

[Nachomamma8]

so me not backing up my thought about the quickhammer with any finished games makes me confscum??? are you seriously that dense or is that just your way of pressuring people? XD dude, I'm not playing such an amazingly complex game in here like MoI or someone; I'm not such a vet on this site to have knowledge of dozens of games to quote for you. you're going WAAAAAAY too far. too EAGER. you sure you're town?

This is a bit of a strawman. The reason you went from leaning scum to confscum was because of the ongoing games thing. You know better. I was asking you to defend yourself with finished games because I figured you must have had some sort of experience with them because if you didn't, it would be unreasonable for you to have such a strong position on quickhammers automatically equaling scum. Meanwhile, you haven't made any need to defend your position on that even though if you were genuine, I'd expect you to be pretty frustrated because not many other people are really looking at your top suspect who is obvscum because he did this terrible horrible scummy thing, but you've been more focused on defending yourself from Falcon and not focused at all on attacking Falcon.

@gregor: in that game you spoke about what were either of your's alignments? can you link us/summarize or something?

We were both town. The Game was Mafia by the River, modded by Tierce. I am not linking you because you don't like to read long games you weren't in.

I'm not following your line of thoughts. he has a townread on you, which makes him town? seriously? U MAD BRO?

And yet another strawman, this time directed at Falcon. You really like this scum tactic, don't you?

[shos]

I have no idea what strawmanning is, never bothered to read about it~ also, where did I say I think F16 is confscum?

[Nachomamma8]

I have no idea what strawmanning is, never bothered to read about it~ also, where did I say I think F16 is confscum?

you can google it if you want.
everyone else knows what I mean.
you also didn't say F16 is confscum. read context, jesus christ.

[Gregory]

real busy today, important stuff tomorrow. will be more active after tomorrow ~17.00. sorry guys.

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, I'm going to put this off another day myself. I'm a little buzzed and want to do this with a clear mind. I know it's only six pages, but I want to be able to give Thor and Nacho a good once over.

[Thor665]

Yeah, I'm going to put this off another day myself. I'm a little buzzed and want to do this with a clear mind. I know it's only six pages, but I want to be able to give Thor and Nacho a good once over.

[Equinox]

Bump.