/Invitational 13: The battle of Yarmouk. Decisive victory!

[DeathRowKitty]

No confirmation phase? There goes the one part of the game I'm good at...

Vote: KittyMo

Die.
Scum.
Die.

5) If you don't lynch before the deadline, that's a shame.
7) this is a nightless game. It has 6 town and 3 scum.

What happens if we don't lynch by deadline?

[DeathRowKitty]

If there are multiple people with the most votes, the person who acquired them first gets lynched

Do you actually mean the person who acquired the votes first or do you mean the person who was least recently below that number of votes? There's an important difference!

[DeathRowKitty]

Well then

. You try being jovial about deadline lynch rules

I was actually going for annoying though, not jovial. I'd been bugging myko the past couple days in scumchat about the game not starting and it hardly seemed appropriate to stop just because it opened.

[DeathRowKitty]

I hate you.

[DeathRowKitty]

Do my posts really "exude effort"? Jeez.

The exclamation mark was certainly a conscious choice - a conscious choice to mess with mykonian. Putting "Die. Scum. Die." on 3 lines was hardly more of a conscious choice than putting a period at the end of your average declarative sentence. My first post says what it means to say in the way it means to say it. That's all.

At some point I'm going to accidentally vote for the wrong kitty here, so it's essential we get rid of one before LYLO.

That's okay, you can call me Frog~ Very few people actually call me anything Kitty-related.


As far as Panzer goes, I think he voted me because he thinks I'm sexy and not because he cares much about the case. I could be wrong, but I certainly am quite an attractive frog.

---

I actually did want a mod response to my deadline lynch rule question.

Mod

Spoiler:

If there are multiple people with the most votes, the person who acquired them first gets lynched

Suppose the 9 players in this game are called A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, and I.

Let's say C gets voted by A and B.
After that happens, player A gets voted by players C and D.
Then players E and F vote player G.

So the votecount now looks like
[2]C - A, B
[2]A - C, D
[2]G - E, F

[3]Not Voting(G, H, I)

Let's say that B then unvotes C and votes A. Then D unvotes A and votes C. No other votes happen the entire day. Final votecount:

[2]C - A, D
[2]A - C, B
[2]G - E, F

[3]Not Voting(G, H, I)

To me, your deadline lynch rule could justify any of these 3 players being lynched. Player A was the first to acquire 2 votes. Player G was the first to acquire the two votes he now has. Player A was least recently below 2 votes.

Who would be lynched?

[DeathRowKitty]

insofar as DRK is voting for KittyMo and would seem to be in favor of getting rid of one of them

Are you really implying that a random vote on KittyMo means I want her lynched?

[DeathRowKitty]

DRK: It's probably not productive for me to start off on a long rant about the pointlessness of "random" votes, so I will just say that if you are still voting for someone randomly on page 2 in the middle of non-random discussion, you're doing it wrong.

Unvoting isn't something it generally occurs to me to do unless I have a vote to replace it. At what point did you think my vote on her became a serious vote and why did that not warrant a question when things like this did? Seems like a strange oversight to make on the guy you're voting.

HOWEVER, my vote right now will go to the lovely young lady who made this post:

This interaction between fishy and mith is striking me as distancing.

Good guy katsuki on the trendy wagon.

DRK WAGON 2013

An interaction on page 2 between the two primary proponents of my wagon striking him as distancing, but not enough for him to consider taking his vote off me? More importantly, his vote on me is seemingly a serious one. I was under the impression he just wanted to vote me and took the page 1 votes on me as an opportunity to do so. The repeated cry of "DRK WAGON 2013" seems hella forced and awkward on a serious vote for which he didn't give reasoning.

Unvote: KittyMo

Vote: Panzerjager

[DeathRowKitty]

Also, re the deadline lynch thing:

In my one modded game, when I originally wrote my ruleset, my deadline lynch tiebreaker rule read as something along the lines of "First person to reach that number of votes will be lynched" (which sounds to me like it means the same thing mykonian's sounded like it meant). Before the game started, I realized that what I meant to say was actually "The player least recently below that number of votes will be lynched", the wording of which was the result of much more thought than it deserved and much more frustration over its inelegance than was anywhere near necessary. I agree that we've done something wrong if we need to know deadline lynch tiebreak rules; they're just something I'm interested in.

[DeathRowKitty]

The way the Panzer wagon formed is making me uncomfortable, despite what is basically an inversion of what chamber did earlier. I'd still like a straight answer from chamber re: his Panzer vote.

What about the way it formed is making you uncomfortable? Also, can you explain what you mean by "an inversion of what chamber said earlier"? I've been staring at that phrase and reading and re-reading chamber's posts and I'm still drawing a blank. If we were playing Scrabble, that would be worth 0 points. I imagine it's not worth much more in mafia.


I'm not really liking KK. I'm going to be lazy and pin it down to gut for now, but I could identify a couple quotes/patterns that lead me to that read if anyone actually cares about it.

It's a random wagon. I don't care who I wagon. It's page 2. I don't know if fishy and mith are both scum but i'm slightly leanign that way

In your view, what is the function of a random wagon? There are no wrong answers and I value your opinion.

[DeathRowKitty]

Hi Rhinox. We missed you.

I don't think I've ever played with Katsuki before. What's he like early on as scum?

[DeathRowKitty]

Oh. Yeah, you shouldn't have reminded me. I think I didn't want to remember it.

Are you

that

confident Panzer is scum that you would be willing to hammer or do you feel like day 1 has been sufficiently productive that it's worth hammering anyway?

[DeathRowKitty]

@DRK: re: 55; I would like an explanation as to where your gut read on KK comes from.

His questions to mith felt strange to me in context:

@mith - Do you have a strong townread on me?

KK: I like your posting so far, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I have a "strong" read on you - I don't believe I've played with you before, for one thing.

So you'll follow a gut scum read on minutia but not a gut town read on minutia?

Those questions are somewhat odd even in a vacuum, but they seem particularly awkward within his iso. His mith questioning has been his primary lead this game, but it feels like the questions he asked were questions with no potential to go anywhere. It's early yet and he doesn't have many posts, but it does seem a bit off to me.

Also, his "[not] willing to hammer yet" thing makes me think he's someone we should look at if Panzer ever dies and flips scum. But chickens, hatch, etc.

[DeathRowKitty]

I'm not a fan of the mith wagon. A lot of what people are calling him scummy for just looks like playstyle differences. I feel like mith is some sort of y2k time traveler who doesn't realize he's in

the future

.

"I can't see something, therefore it doesn't exist"?

Seeing is believing. If something comes of it, I'm happy to eat my words.

Panzer, what internet browser do you use?

What were you hoping to learn from this? You didn't say anything when Panzer responded to it.

@DRk: Random wagons happen because they are funny, right?

That sounds like as good a reason as any (well, not really, but yes, that is one acceptable reason) for a random wagon, but doesn't actually address what I want to know (why you were riding a random wagon when you had real opinions on the game).

[DeathRowKitty]

Panzer, can you point out some specifics of what caused you to make the mith-fishy comment? Explaining them would be a bonus, but if not, specific quotes that put the idea in your head would be good.

[DeathRowKitty]

Mod, do scum have daytalk?

[DeathRowKitty]

@Chamber
Because it wasn't a question about private information

@Katsuki
I don't really know what your reasons are - you cited "gut" and "mith's general approach to the game" without any further explanation. Panzer voted mith without giving reasons at all. Now, I'm aware there was more to what the following people said than what I'm about to point out, but the other two people who have cast votes on mith this game have given the following as part of their reasoning:
1. taking my jokey stuff seriously
2. "semantics of meanings of votes"

Mith's take on what should and shouldn't happen at the start of the game and his explanations of his take on what should and shouldn't happen at the start of the game drew a lot of attention and seems to underpin a decent chunk even of the reasoning that doesn't directly reference it.

[DeathRowKitty]

If you would prefer, I can ask mykonian to ignore the question in thread and ask it privately, then mention his answer if/when I find that information useful. Everyone can then verify that I'm being truthful about mykonian's answer by each sending an individual PM asking him the same question.

Alternatively, I can ask in thread.

[DeathRowKitty]

Drew awareness to

what

?

[DeathRowKitty]

Do scum "likely have day talk" or is it "fairly obvious that they should"?


I asked about it because on reread,

I'm willing to hammer yet (page 2 and all). But panzerjager needs to explain himself.

^ that sounded like Kublai telling buddyPanzer to step up his game.

[DeathRowKitty]

Then I guess I just don't understand what you think is harmful about it. Are people going to start playing differently because that question was asked publicly?

[DeathRowKitty]

Okay.

[DeathRowKitty]

I'm not a fan of the mith wagon. A lot of what people are calling him scummy for just looks like playstyle differences. I feel like mith is some sort of y2k time traveler who doesn't realize he's in

the future

.

Why do you feel the need to make excuses for mith?

I don't know, why do you call it "excuses"...? When the wagon reached L-1, I gave my opinion of the case on mith.

@DeathRowKitty - Here you quote the fact that this is a nightless game when asking about deadline lynch rules:

5) If you don't lynch before the deadline, that's a shame.
7) this is a nightless game. It has 6 town and 3 scum.

What happens if we don't lynch by deadline?

Did/do you actually think that scum don't have daytalk during a nightless game?

I don't know. I don't think I've ever even read a nightless game that wasn't a marathon game. From what chamber said, I guess they do.

(P.S. - I think your scumread on me is heavily trumped up)

What exactly do you mean by "trumped up"?

[DeathRowKitty]

Fascinating.

[DeathRowKitty]

Meow.

Meow.

Meow.


PANZER ARE YOU BLIND

[DeathRowKitty]

Do you have eyes? Do you have a brain? Are they perhaps CONNECTED

somehow

? Perhaps in such a way that would oh I don't know allow you to READ? MEOW MEOW MEOW

[DeathRowKitty]

I have strong reason to believe that Panzer reads this thread far more often than he replies to it.

And when I say "replies", I actually mean "pulls words out of random.org to post in this game thread" because HOW ELSE COULD HIS POSTS BE SO COMPLETELY UNAWARE OF ANYTHING POSTED.

Meow~

[DeathRowKitty]

And it would be nice if directing something at Panzer didn't hold up my thought processes for weeks on end while I wait for him to finish posting useless drivel long enough to say something relevant.

Also MEOW

[DeathRowKitty]

Good point Katsuki.

I wish I'd thought of that.

[DeathRowKitty]

Fuck DRK

o_o

[DeathRowKitty]

Checking in to say that I'm not unvoting.

[DeathRowKitty]

Well...I don't feel anywhere near as sad about that flip as I should. This does change things though. I'll give this game a reread either tonight or tomorrow morning/early afternoon and figure things out from there

[DeathRowKitty]

Okay, so....

Vote: Kublai Khan

I still don't like him. His posts, that is. Having seen his line of questioning on mith reach its climax at this, I don't even know what the point of his questioning was supposed to be. His final post in his line of questioning looks like a first post I would expect someone to make on a topic and his entire line of questioning just looks like a way to make it look like he was trying to appear useful without doing anything.



Interestingly enough, KittyMo's 62 was something I didn't like on reread (without having read your post first). Non-forum experience tells me that I'm terrible at reading her, but etc


Chamber seemed more town on reread, fishy still seems town, no idea on katsuki, rhinox slightly town, didn't really change mith.

And that is DRK's mind in 15 seconds.

[DeathRowKitty]

Also since this is nightless, I don't feel as worried about giving scum my townreads. So far, I'd rank everyone from town to scum as follows:
-snip-

How much of this list is based on individual scumminess and how much of it is dependent on a mith-centric scum team?

plus the "terrible at reading her" comment sounds like fence-sitting.

To be honest...that's kind of what it is. In (non-forum) mafia (I have almost zero non-marathon forum mafia experience with her), I've have a bad habit with KittyMo of reading into things that aren't there and missing actual scumminess. That's probably also responsible for the "interestingly enough" wording...I think I meant that it was interesting to me that what I thought about her lined up with what someone else thought about her, not that it was interesting in and of itself.

So I can't have more than 1 scum read, and the strengths of these reads can't vary? You sure say some interesting things, mith.

This is a really strange interpretation of what mith said. Can you point out where in mith's post you got each of those things from?

[DeathRowKitty]

I call it an excuse because the last sentence makes it look like your trying to diffuse a lynch instead of just weighing in on it. You aren't saying mith is town, you're not really pushing a case on how you'd rather lynch someone else, you're just against a mith-lynch in a very neutral fashion.

It's very weird.

I dun' get you. You're saying I was trying to diffuse a lynch by not saying its target is town and not pushing a case on someone else? When you view it that way, yeah, it seems very weird.

You thought that scum would have no communication at all?

It doesn't seem implausible at all in my mind. Scum get night talk in normal games and mostly just discuss who they're killing. Do scum need communication to function during the day? Considering you're the second person to tell me (or heavily imply, in your case) that scum do get daytalk in nightless games, clearly I was wrong.

What answer were you expecting out of that question that would have been useful?

It doesn't feel like you read what I wrote and thought I seemed guilty. It feels like you decided you wanted to read me as guilty then ISO'd me to justify it.

Here's where I initially said that I found you scummy. Tell me why at that point in the game I would decide I "wanted to read [you] as guilty" and why I would include an offer to give reasoning if I didn't actually have a reason.



But enough about me KK, you're more interesting. Would you agree that this was the culmination of your questioning of mith? How much of what you said in that post would you say actually required questioning to conclude?

[DeathRowKitty]

You...didn't actually correctly read anything I wrote.

[DeathRowKitty]

Actually you read the last quote right. My mistake.

But I don't understand your response to it. Do you not know how much of what you typed in that post you'd concluded before questioning mith? Because that doesn't make sense.

[DeathRowKitty]

You...didn't actually correctly read anything I wrote.

Then re-state with clarity.

At the risk of sounding rude - figure it out yourself. Yes, I have a reason for not wanting to spoon-feed it to you.

[DeathRowKitty]

I had a suspicion and his answers helped shape whether he fit that suspicion.

See, I don't get that impression at all. The impression I get is much much much more along the lines of:
KK: "Hey mith, []?"
mith: "Um...okay"
KK: "OH, SO [[[[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]!!!!!!!!!"
mith: "...huh?"
KK: "Okay good, I was right. The combination of these reasons is why you're at the top of my scum-reads."

[DeathRowKitty]

I was kinda hoping DRK was going to get to the point regarding #191.

This will not happen until KK either tries again or puts his fingers over his ears while yelling "I'm not listening".

[DeathRowKitty]

If he chooses the latter, my vote will not move from him until he is dead.

[DeathRowKitty]

Regardless of KK's alignment or what he thinks my alignment is, it does not benefit him to have a vote permanently glued to him. If, given this new context, he still chooses to not make an attempt, he will be making a strong statement. If so, I want him to actually make that statement, not just carry on waiting for me to budge.

I'll explain what I'm getting at after KK either tries again or blatantly refuses to. If you're so desperate for an explanation, press KK to do something useful.

[DeathRowKitty]

Oh KK, you like seeing me angry, don't you? You like it rough, don't you?

This post. Oh that post. You wanted to write it off as me being unclear, didn't you? Well you know why I made a big deal out of it? I bet you do.

The issue is that it has nothing at all to do with me being unclear

. It has everything to do with you

selectively and blatantly responding to things I didn't actually say

. Let's look closer, shall we?

It doesn't seem implausible at all in my mind. Scum get night talk in normal games and mostly just discuss who they're killing. Do scum need communication to function during the day? Considering you're the second person to tell me (or heavily imply, in your case) that scum do get daytalk in nightless games, clearly I was wrong.

You've been here since 2009 and the only thing you've ever used night-talk is to discuss who to kill?

This isn't even to being a response to what I wrote. For one thing, it's practically responded to

within the post he's responding to

. "Scum get night talk in normal games and mostly just discuss who they're killing." There's two ways I would be willing to believe someone interpreted that:
1) Most scum teams just talk about who they're killing.
2) Most night talk of the average scum team is in reference to who they're killing.
Regardless of which way he read that, his question is completely irrelevant. Perhaps more importantly, he blatantly missed the point of my response. He was supposedly asking this to find out if it would make sense for me to believe scum wouldn't have any form of private communication. The important thing he should have taken away from my post if he actually cared about my response was the "Do scum need communication to function during the day?" that sums up the "mostly just discuss who they're killing" part of the post that he seemingly completely ignored. But that's okay because who needs to respond to the actual content of a post when following an

agenda

(more on the agenda thing later because it runs soooo deep).

What answer were you expecting out of that question that would have been useful?

I'm pursuing this line of questioning because in post 103 you suggest that I'm scum because I'm "coaching" Panzerjager. I'm observing that you're doing something that I call "spaghetti-ing". You're throwing all sorts of bullshit to the wall and looking for something to stick.

In this quote, KK tries his hardest to one-up himself in failing to read anything I write and amazingly manages to succeed. I don't think that requires a drawn-out explanation and I don't think one exists beyond

is it even possible to read my question and think that was a valid response to it?

I think it shows something better though:

he didn't care what my answer was

. I mean, I suppose he made that sufficiently clear in the previous thing I quoted, but if you didn't believe it there, oh how he drove home that point here. Remember that

agenda

thing? Yeah, is there any doubt at all that he was asking these questions to lead to a conclusion he knew he couldn't support if he actually had to care about responses?

Here's where I initially said that I found you scummy. Tell me why at that point in the game I would decide I "wanted to read [you] as guilty" and why I would include an offer to give reasoning if I didn't actually have a reason.

But you didn't have a reason. You had a gut feeling. You didn't try to follow up that gut feeling by asking me any questions, you just starting making misinterpretations to justify a desire to lynch. That is scummy behavior.

I think I would find this post funny if I weren't legitimately angry right now. "Why would I offer to give reasoning if I didn't have a reason?" "You didn't have a reason." Smooth. Not only does this one fail to respond to what I said, it also fails at reading the post I linked:

I'm not really liking KK. I'm going to be lazy and pin it down to gut for now, but I could identify a couple quotes/patterns that lead me to that read if anyone actually cares about it.

How did he get "you didn't have a reason" from "I could identify a couple quotes/patterns that lead me to that read"? Welcome to first grade reading comprehension; failures: Kublai Khan. Except he's not that stupid. He's not stupid enough to have actually failed at reading any of my post that badly.


The big theme here is: he asked me questions without caring what the answers were. Heck, they were practically loaded questions. "You've been here since 2009 and the only thing you've ever used night-talk is to discuss who to kill?" Why yes KK, I did stop beating my wife, how nice of you to notice. He wasn't asking me questions with the intention of gaining information; he was asking questions in order to ask follow-up questions that weren't even dependent on my answers in order to lead to the conclusion he started out with in mind. And he had the

nerve

to accuse me of this:

You didn't try to follow up that gut feeling by asking me any questions

Yes KK, you are clearly following up on your gut read on me by asking me questions and ignoring the answers.

And even better,

this pattern of asking questions and ignoring the answers is the exact same thing he did with mith earlier

. See this post for a summary of that line of questioning.



So why did I make this big a deal out of KK taking another shot at reading comprehension? Failing that badly at reading my post once is damn near impossible. Failing that badly at reading it twice, knowing that he did so the first time would leave no question that he was doing it intentionally. The fact that he refused to take a second try at it tells me he didn't want to read my post correctly and I don't doubt that he reread my post and just didn't say anything. But hey, let's not sell him short here. He didn't actually refuse to try again. He pretended my request didn't exist and just didn't post anything. Is there any reason for that other than to impede my line of posting? I'm supposedly his big scum read...why doesn't he want me to post? I for one love it when my scum reads post things. In fact, it would be nice if KK posted things more often or if he ever posted anything remotely useful, but now I'm making this personal, aren't I? Oh KK, you wanted me to look like a fool sitting around waiting for you to make an acknowledgement you were never going to make, didn't you? But please, don't respond to anything now. If you do, I'll be forced to play to your level and respond with "NEENER NEENER NEENER" in all caps. I figure that should be simple enough for you to understand.

[DeathRowKitty]

I'm a man of my word and my vote will not move from KK until he is dead. If that means today's lynch has to be me or KK, then so be it. That just means he's forced to try to squirm his way out of this.

[DeathRowKitty]

Probably not. I was a much more tame player during the time period in which I played a large majority of my games.

[DeathRowKitty]

I'm not actually entirely sure what you were referring to now when you asked me for examples of posts like those, chamber. Depending on what you meant, I might.

[DeathRowKitty]

You're positing that it doesn't seem implausible that scum might not have any kind of communication since scum mostly only night talk to determine who to kill.

Cool, you learned how to read. I'm proud of you. It might have meant something to me if this had come before my big post.

I'm not failing to read anything. I'm going to blow your mind with some info right now:

Good scum can make up a case on anyone for any reason.

Anyone can comb through someone else's ISO with the mindset of "what can I use to make a case" and find some bullshit. Which looks exactly like what you were offering to do.

Thank you for your vote of confidence in my abilities. Except this is completely bullshit ^_^ You're saying that I essentially pulled your name out of a hat because I'm good scum that can make a case on anyone (or maybe you're not calling me a good player? i hope you are because i could use an ego boost). Good scum pull names out of hats when choosing their targets, right? Because if you're not implying that I chose you in some sort of random-ish way, then I must have had a reason before making that post.

You know that spaghetti analogy you made? Please stop throwing spaghetti. There are starving children in Mongolia that would love that spaghetti.

[DeathRowKitty]

Was deadline

supposed to

be today? Because wow, I actually didn't notice...

[DeathRowKitty]

It's okay, I understand you: I'm a good player, therefore I pull names out of a hat to call scum and later make cases on them. Makes perfect sense.

[DeathRowKitty]

Is it a strategy good scum use? I'm good scum, remember?

[DeathRowKitty]

God I'm sorry I just can't take this seriously after having you imply I'm a good player. That's just the greatest cop-out ever.

"KK, are you seriously saying I did x stupid thing? "
"Maybe. Good scum could ttly pull off x stupid thing if they wanted to."

That's seriously what you said. Do you dispute that?

[DeathRowKitty]

I didn't say nor imply that. And I don't know where you're getting "defense" from.

[DeathRowKitty]

So now let me ask you again, do you dispute my summary here. And if not, what in the name of tadpoles did you mean?

[DeathRowKitty]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Thank you for your time.

[DeathRowKitty]

Vote: KK

Fun fact: The mod apparently decided deadline didn't matter because this is a nightless game and only ended the day because I harassed him about it on AIM. It's not like anything important happens at deadline, right?

[DeathRowKitty]

I don't think he's scummy and I highly doubt he's scum with you. I also want to know his answer to that question, but I don't have high hopes for him answering it any time soon because of his playstyle.

[DeathRowKitty]

*will respond to things in large post after eating*

[DeathRowKitty]

@DRK: what do you feel about KK's vote on Kitty yesterday? Is it a likely play from scum?

I don't think it means anything. The mith-wagon at that point was a no-go and he was otherwise committed to voting me, with Rhinox being his only visible support. He had nothing to lose by voting KittyMo if he was scum, even if she was his buddy.

[DeathRowKitty]

@DRK: How was the mith-wagon a no-go? That sounds more like the words of someone who wants to say KK is scum than someone who is looking at the game. Here was the votecount:

Initially, Vahan's plan seemed succesful. Both Muslim wings were pushed back by the unstoppable Roman legions, but were not broken. Could they push back in time to protect their pinned down center?

votecount

Kublai Kahn (2): chamber, deathrowkitty
mith (2): KittyMo, katsuki
KittyMo (2): Fishythefish, Rhinox
Katsuki (1): mith
DeathRowKitty (1): Kublai Kahn

not voting (0):

KK had previously pushed a mith wagon D1, and listed mith (just) above Kitty in a scumlist day 2. On the more general climate, there was no serious pro-mith feeling around.

Chamber had mentioned not finding mith scummy, I never showed much interest in voting mith, mith obviously wasn't voting mith. That leaves just you and Rhinox that could possibly push through a mith wagon and you were both on the KittyMo otherwagon.

[DeathRowKitty]

The KK and KittyMo wagons both had people that could realistically have made the jump. At most, the mith wagon could have gotten Rhinox. You'd just made a big deal about how we needed to settle on a wagon and that that wagon was KittyMo and no one else could reasonably have been expected to go for it.

In the case of KK, both KittyMo and Katsuki were wild cards - neither of them had been around to have given an opinion on the wagon and either or both could plausibly have joined. mith voted KittyMo over KK but seemed likely to go for KK if KittyMo and Katsuki lynches weren't possible.

In the case of KittyMo, there was the possibility of Katuki and mith, one of which did materialize.

Unless KK was going to out-of-nowhere try to get you to convert to mith after you'd just made a big point of KittyMo being the best deadline lynch, the mith wagon was simply not a possibility.

---

You weren't voting kitty. Why harass the mod to end the day on a deadline lynch when, if you wanted the day to end, you could have just hammered kitty?

I had no interest in moving my vote. I harassed him to end the day because

I'm not entirely convinced his modding isn't an experiment in how little effort he can put into a game without his players complaining

if he wasn't going to bother even looking for a replacement for a player that asked to replace out, he may as well just end the day and have her be lynched. It turns out he actually was looking for a replacement and just never acknowledged in thread that he'd noticed she asked to replace out. I am extremely disappointed in our mod so far this game

[DeathRowKitty]

I'm not actually entirely sure what you were referring to now when you asked me for examples of posts like those, chamber. Depending on what you meant, I might.

^ To expand on this, I suspect I interpreted what you said more literally than you intended - I played a few games in March 2011 that may or may not have what you're looking for.

[DeathRowKitty]

Fishy - I'll think about that in a bit. I may or may not have been forgetting KittyMo is scum when I looked at the possible voters. I read your posts two nights ago, decided "garble garble I don't feel like thinking right now", and then forgot about it tbh >.>

[DeathRowKitty]

I may or may not have been forgetting KittyMo is scum when I looked at the possible voters.

Never mind, that wasn't the difference between our analyses. I was looking at wagons individually and counting the votes I thought they might get without considering the fact that wagons had to split voters. I think. Or maybe I just miscounted. I'm not entirely sure. This does weaken the possibility of KK being scum.

[DeathRowKitty]

Call me stupid but I actually don't know why a chamber wagon sprung up. Did everyone just suddenly decide he was scum or did something happen?

[DeathRowKitty]

Just as a note, if there is actually a deadline today, it may or may not be in 5 RL days.

Fishy, if chamber is scum, what's your opinion on mith's voting record today? I have an answer in mind, but I'm not going to give it yet for bias reasons.

@mith
Why is me being obtuse scummy, but chamber and Rhinox being obtuse not scummy?


It doesn't look like any hope of happening, but I still want KK lynched. Day 2 wagon analysis says he didn't have to vote the way he did and that's points in his favor, but barring extreme circumstances, I'm not a fan of wagon analysis being an entire case on someone and the wagon analysis doesn't exempt the rest of his play from scrutiny - I still think he is overall scummier than anyone else in the game.

The obvious buddy for KK would be Rhinox for his strange push to get me to play my hand early day 2. Even with him calling me scum, I don't see what benefit he would see as town from that, whereas buddy-to-KK would have the motivation of giving KK the upper hand in the fight. I'm not entirely sold on that pairing though, even if KK is scum.

Outside of that, my next pick is probably Katsuki. To be honest, I really have no idea what to make of him I've kind of been flip-flopping back and forth on him all game because his play doesn't make sense to me from either alignment (and there's been increasingly little to read him off of, since he's been so busy). I currently find him mildly scummy on what I guess is gut, but I don't know if it's really gut or if it's just paranoia. His play definitely makes me paranoid.

My other reads are kind of blurred out and I'd rather not explain them because...because. I still don't have much interest in lynching chamber. If it comes down to a deadline wagon, I would rather go for Katsuki if enough people are interested.

[DeathRowKitty]

Add me to the list of "will post something useful in the future". For me, the future is tomorrow.

[DeathRowKitty]

Sorry, got lazy the past couple of days and didn't really check MS much. Kind of forgot deadline was sneaking up on us or I might have posted something the past couple of days, though I don't think anything I would have done would have made anything turn out differently today anyway.

Katsuki, if you're still here, teach me about this game. I feel like I'm missing something in my worldview. What is it?

[DeathRowKitty]

Katsuki, do you believe that your lynch right now would be more beneficial to the town than that of anyone other specific person? If you had to choose 2 remaining players as a scum pair, which 2 would they be?

[DeathRowKitty]

Obviously my lynch is not desirable, but I don't see it NOT happening. There is too much liability with my slot and it's reached a point where my presence will only further detract from actual scumhunting.

I've already been unable to get any solid reads this game so not only is my slot distracting, but I myself probably will be a liability going down this game given my lack of confidence.

Is there such a thing in a nightless game where lynches are responsible for every kill? You can't be left alive at night to be mislynched later if you're town.



Regarding my lack of posting towards the end of yesterday, it was a few days of poor time management followed by a couple of days of mostly not being on MS for no good reason. Take that as you will.

[DeathRowKitty]

"Makes it feel a little like DRK knows we've mislynched and is excusing his part in it." - This, exactly.

Huh. Looking back at it, it does kind of read like that. I wrote that really soon after waking up and feeling kind of down on myself. I probably shouldn't do that.

[DeathRowKitty]

Getting my mind back into this game a bit...

I kind of figured at first that Katsuki's self-vote was a town tell because self-votes in general are and his self-vote isn't particularly unique among self-votes. I think I just worded that terribly. Close enough. The thing that gives me pause about it...or at least one of the things because I don't think it's possible for self-votes not to make one question everything he or she knows about the, universe, and everything, is the fact that this game is nightless. Every kill is controlled by the majority. While self-votes are most commonly a frustrated town play, Katsuki's feels much more detached and logical - his initial reasoning was basically "Well, I fucked up and I look bad for it *seppuku*". Except this is nightless, where people that die are in a one-to-one correlation with people the majority wants dead. There's no such thing as surviving one day, only to be set up to die at a more favorable time. For a self-vote that doesn't at all feel frustrated, something seems off about the reasoning. I also kind of find it strange that Katsuki is still self-voting, but I don't know what conclusion to draw from it without hearing from Katsuki about it.

That all having been said, I'm not actually sold on Katsuki's self-vote being scummy just because it would be one heck of a gamble coming immediately after a fishy post saying he wasn't moving his vote from Kat and a Rhinox vote saying he was okay with a Katsuki lynch. No one spontaneously and magically came out of nowhere to defend Katsuki's self-vote as being a town tell - in the situation in which Katsuki was scum, it would probably be natural for his partner to post a light defense of him, just because of how controversial self-votes are. It would also potentially be risky if Katsuki did get lynched and it's possible that Katsuki+partner were hoping that someone else would post the light defense for them, but *speculation*. Then again, mith's longish build-up into his vote on me could be that light defense in another form. Yeah, at this point I'm just rambling to myself more than anything...

Also while I'm posting disconnected thoughts as I remember them, Katsuki having reads came out of nowhere. Katsuki, came you give some sort of a timeline on when/where/why your reads came to be.


ALSO KK's avatar and Rhinox's avatar are really hard to tell apart at first glance and I'm really bad at noticing details fuck fuck :<

Also I kind of find it hilarious that KK's posts and post timing support the conclusion of him being scum with me. Actually I don't find it hilarious and I don't know why I said I do because I wasn't laughing. Ironic, maybe?

Also also also

I use the word also too much

I was like wtf why are people suddenly looking at everything in terms of pairings and now that I thought about Katsuki more it makes sense and I feel smart for it but vaguely dumb for not understanding until now.

I meant to say something else I think .-. On second thought I think it was a comment on KK's posts on this matter, mainly that they don't say much of anything.

/fin 4 now

[DeathRowKitty]

Wait no I also meant to address 2 things mith said at some point:

1. He commented on my not knowing why chamber was being voted:
-I kind of guessed that he was being voted for his position counter to the KittyMo wagon, but literally no one actually explained why chamber had suddenly risen to the top of their scum lists and I was the primary person behind the wagon chamber was on so what did he do that I didn't?

2. He pointed out my strange question/comment/thing to Katsuki asking him to explain my worldview or...some shit like that (I don't actually remember exactly what I said at this point..)
-That was slightly asked/said/whatever out of frustration and partly because I have a lot of IRC mafia experience that causes me to really like scumhunting through conversation and slightly strange reaction-y test-y comments and questions.

Okay, now I think that's all for the moment.

[DeathRowKitty]

Well excuse me for being wishy-washy on Katsuki right now. Clearly your read on Katsuki is rock-solid unbreakable confidence.

BEE TEE DUBS, after you said that, your posts have had a distinct focus of "hey Katsuki, you're scum". Why you ain't voting him?

[DeathRowKitty]

If not for the post you just made, I would not have known that you thought Katsuki was scum as of post #367. And that's despite you saying you would be okay with a Kats lynch in that very post. It was a wishy-washy post. Your posts since then haven't been wishy-washy.


Is 361 words too many to post on a topic without giving an opinion? I mean I get that my post wasn't particularly useful (though I would like to hope/believe that *something* can be taken out of the line of thought that went into it), but you're implying that you wouldn't have found that post scummy if I'd written fewer words on it. That just seems ridiculous to me.

[DeathRowKitty]

you didn't have anything at all to say about my position on kats until I accused you of being wishy-washy. If you didn't know where I stood on kats and thought I was being wishywashy, why didn't you question me or call me out before?

I only pointed it out because I perceived you to be doing what it looked like you were accusing me of doing. Also, I thought you were voting Katsuki until I looked back to find that post.

I would say yes, I have found there is a positive correlation between the number of words used to say nothing, and the odds of the player being scum. The statement you parenthesized is pretty much the reason why, I suspect.

Fair.

[DeathRowKitty]

Um...I'm really not sure how that ended up in nested quotes.

[DeathRowKitty]

DRK's positions today are terrible as shit though and I really want to see him gone before me. I'm pretty sure we have this game wrapped up if DRK is scum, easily with KK or fishy.

Positions? What positions? Unless you count "I don't know if Katsuki is scum" as a position, I don't think I've even taken a position today. Are you actually reading along with the game? Because I'm pretty sure I've directed like 3 questions to you to try to figure out what the hell you were playing at with your self-vote. But apparently you have no interest in making sense of your play and would prefer to just suddenly vote your counterwagon with reasoning that doesn't exist? And how did your position even manage to go from "I'm a distraction and I have no idea what's going on in this game, we should lynch me..." to "we should lynch x, y, and z, gg we win"?

Vote: Katsuki

[DeathRowKitty]

Nothing particularly important to say. My opinions haven't noticeably changed.

Just as a warning though, I'm probably gonna have to replace out...events starting this weekend are likely to severely limit my access to Mafiascum for the foreseeable future (to an extent that I wouldn't be able to keep up with the pace of even this game). I'll keep you updated on that and sorry if I do end up having to do so.

[DeathRowKitty]

V/LA for personal reasons

I most likely won't have limited access, but I don't think I could possibly be angrier than I am right now and will not be posting today or possibly the next few days.

[DeathRowKitty]

Looks like I didn't miss much.

I haven't though too much about pairings from the remaining players (aside from the KK/Rhinox that seems to spring up every once in a while). To be honest, I've kind of gotten tunnel-visioned a lot this game. As of right now, my ordering for individual scumminess would be something like KK > Rhinox >~ mith > Fishy (>~ meaning approximately equal to but probably greater than). I really think a KK lynch is the best choice right now. KK being scum probably puts Rhinox a decent amount ahead of mith on my list. I'm going to reread the game over the course of today (hooray for really short game?) and try to focus largely on pairings.

[DeathRowKitty]

Sorry - I'll probably finish that tomorrow (busy-ish today). No real excuse for not getting to it yet past "I like unnecessary extra sleep more than I like this thread." I've dreamt about this game three times since I last posted though...

[DeathRowKitty]

When's deadline?

I've finally gotten around to starting to reread the game today (unexpected forced socialization pretty much all of yesterday ate up all my time). I'm on page 11. The main thing I've gotten out of this so far is that mith-KK makes a lot more sense than I'd given it credit for. My individual reads on people haven't changed much though.

[DeathRowKitty]

Your vote prooobably made me feel way more paranoid than it should have. Having looked back, I'm pretty convinced you aren't scum with any remaining player though...and I didn't really think you were scum to begin with but *paranoid*

I would be kind of shocked if we have a mith+Rhinox+KittyMo scumteam here. Their overall interactions would have to be really bussy and mith+Rhinox would have to have basically blocked off any lynch except KittyMo on day 2 and I don't think they had a reason to do that. Also, they've both posted since the fishy vote and less than an hour apart.

Vote: Kublai Khan

I really have no clue on mith vs Rhinox as a partner and I don't want to think about it any more right now, but KK is individually scummiest right now and every team that makes the most sense includes him.

[DeathRowKitty]

That was anti-climactic. I blame mith for having me expect some sort of meteor to fall out of the sky and prevent the win.

[DeathRowKitty]

I also do not mind the QT going public.


I really thought we were dead by halfway through day 1 when almost everyone's scum reads included at least 2 out of the 3 of us. We survived off of mislynches materializing out of thin air (seriously, those chamber and Katsuki lynches...they just came out of nowhere) and because of how hard it is to get scum lynched without bussing when scum represent such a large portion of the playerlist. Also, mith played really well from day 2 on after coming under heavy suspicion day 1. I guess I can cross

Be scum with site owner and win almost entirely because of his play

off my bucket list. Not that it was ever on my bucket list, but if it was, I would feel slightly more complete for having played this game.

I've really never played or seen a nightless game on MS, so I have no idea how the balance was. It kind of felt scum-sided, but on the other hand, having one more townie look town would have lost us the game. So I don't know.

[DeathRowKitty]

I was going to vote him.