512: Bojack Horseman Season 2 (Over)

[sekai no ki]

This is a load of horseshit. It's one of the most perfunctory and buzzwordy bad reads I've ever seen on me-solo or on one of my hydras.

this is exactly what i thought when i read it. like, i actually laughed.

i also think that the timing of the vote, specifically, looked manipulative and obviously so.

[sekai no ki]

hydra dissonance, BoP, stretching for townpoints. I think ffery

and pie

both play a better towngame than this.

lololol at the bolded given he spent a majority of the game i had with him complaining about my play style and the way i strongarm lynches. granted, he was scum there, but i don't think he would have spent the whole game commenting on it if it's not something he thought he would have at least slightly believed as town.

(alternatively, if sthar wants to correct me on this, i could use any kind of ego boost i can get)

[sekai no ki]

VOTE: sthar8

[sekai no ki]

Wingback, I think I know who you are.

If you are who I think, then you are scum in this game.

There. I said it.

Not leaving that unsaid if this goes to a day 3.

[sekai no ki]

If I'm right, I wish you well in your new MS career.

[sekai no ki]

Yeah, pretty sure you're wrong if you're town unless you you've followed my games.

Can you respond to my Post 1548 please?

I did a reboot. Tried to look at all players with fresh eyes.

You were the scary unknown quantity - an obviously experienced and data-driven player with no meta to dodge. Which is why MS had you in his scumpile.

I re-thought Firebringer but came back to town there. Same with polar vortex.

Since then, I've had second thoughts about TSO being scum, but in this player list it still comes to one of you two as sthar8's partner.

[sekai no ki]

@ Sekai, I'm obviously experienced - more so than Polar and Firebringer I'm sure so I

could

see myself being harder to read. Can you explain what you mean by "data-driven" and why Polar Vortex and Firebringer aren't that way in your mind?

This feels like a useless question. Why do you ask it?

You are data driven in that you come into the thread every few days and have a bunch of posts you want to follow up on, asking for detailed questions that include stuff like "when did you stop thinking x and start thinking y and precisely what post was the one where that read change happen?" And you ask for meta links, with fairly exact criteria, such as your asking me for links to games where I was in mylo/lylo.

You should be able to see pretty clearly why that descriptor fits your play in this game and not theirs.

[sekai no ki]

This feels like a useless question. Why do you ask it?

I think you've set a rather low bar for Firebringer and Polar Vortex. While I read Polar as town off of D1, I don't think their D2 play is impressive. They have done much less than I did. Understanding what you think of their play will help me figure out whether this lower bar you set for them is justified thus giving me a better idea of your sincerity which directly corelates to your alignment.

I have experiential meta with Firebringer, and a recent meta-dive from our prior game to go by. In our prior game I didn't decide he was bet-the-farm town until sometime on day 2. he has an internal ruleset that he plays by, but he'll drop the ruleset when it leads contradictory places. That became clear in our first game, and I could see him hitting the same decision points in his reads in this game. In his ms scum game, that sort of internal conflict never came to a head.

I have experiential meta with one head of PV. Stormbringer blends in and doesn't make waves as scum. his partner could be masking that, but overall their stances have made town sense.

I agree that PV has been quiet today, but they said at the start of the game day that they would be v/la until friday.

[sekai no ki]

This feels like a useless question. Why do you ask it?

I think you've set a rather low bar for Firebringer and Polar Vortex. While I read Polar as town off of D1, I don't think their D2 play is impressive. They have done much less than I did. Understanding what you think of their play will help me figure out whether this lower bar you set for them is justified thus giving me a better idea of your sincerity which directly corelates to your alignment.

I still think the question is pretty useless for finding out what I think of their play, and a rather roundabout way to get what you say you wanted regarding my my reads of them.

[sekai no ki]

@ Sekai: You're using different criteria to read different players. The town reason for doing this generally would be because you perceive their playstyles as different and don't think the same criteria apply. Asking you what you feel the differences are based on a remark you made about "data-driven" was the most straightforward way I could think of to understand how you are developing these different reads and whether they are town-motivated.

ok.

I do indeed use different criteria to read different players. The reasons why can be lumped under the playstyle label.

Anyways, if you are town, I think your initial scumlist was right and it is Sthar8/TSO. But I don't trust your motives as much as Firebringer and Polar seem to and your read flip on me was came out of the blue. I don't want to be wrong here so I'll sleep on it and think some more before I get back to this.

MYLO/LYLO does strange things to motivations both for town and for scum. And your approach to having someone in range of being quickhammered sets my teeth on edge. You can look at the Jurassic Park game I linked earlier to see what my reaction to Mathdino putting players in range of hammer was.

You also commented that my paranoia seemed over the top. Paranoia is something several players have pointed out as being a problem with my town game. Knowing it's a problem doesn't make it easier to solve, I find.

[sekai no ki]

It's mylo. Sthar already has s vote on him. Probably two. If we vote him, we end day. Why should we do that with no claim? T

I already claimed that my role is negative utility for town. Nobody has picked up on the implications of that with two flipped investigatives.

Evidence suggests there's nobody here who is willing/competent enough to do the balance theory that requires other than myself, so what's the point of being more specific?

Claiming miller? But that wouldn't be affected by the tracker at least

relevant evidence for my assertion.

you're hinting that you're ascetic, I think.

[sekai no ki]

Firebringer is strongly townread by at least two players, so getting a lynch there isn't actually viable. This vote is more to point out that I won't be a part of the sthar mislynch.

Put a case with your vote.

This is mylo. It's not like you to shrug and say fuck it if you think the game is going down the tubes.

[sekai no ki]

I mean ffs you're demanding more words be written about sthar8 when your basis for your vote is two quotes and a disdainful sniff.

[sekai no ki]

Nobody has any intention whatsoever of changing their minds. None.

I didn't expect to change my mind about metal sonic.

[sekai no ki]

Nobody has any intention whatsoever of changing their minds. None.

I didn't expect to change my mind about metal sonic.

And you didn't. Which backs up what I'm saying.

No, I did. We both did. We both flipped from scumreading him to townreading him. Which backs up that you haven't read the game.

[sekai no ki]

I mean, as far as I'm concerned one of fire and sekai is guaranteed scum.

do you really think this shitcase comes from either of ffery or pie as town?

I like how you speak so authoritatively about someone you're playing your first game with.

[sekai no ki]

Nobody has any intention whatsoever of changing their minds. None.

I didn't expect to change my mind about metal sonic.

And you didn't. Which backs up what I'm saying.

No, I did. We both did. We both flipped from scumreading him to townreading him. Which backs up that you haven't read the game.

Brilliant contradiction. Your Honor, please end this farce.

:/

I wanted you to show me what you think makes him town here.

[sekai no ki]

I get that you're likely just doing your job as scum and I admire that but god it fucking kills me to watch everyone dance like a puppet on your strings.

What are you talking about?

This feels like an empty attack. No substance. Just smear.

[sekai no ki]

I mean, as far as I'm concerned one of fire and sekai is guaranteed scum.

do you really think this shitcase comes from either of ffery or pie as town?

I like how you speak so authoritatively about someone you're playing your first game with.

Are you high? We talked about this

in this thread

. I've seen your towngame in the last AP large, which spanned months and was easily more draining than this game. And pie played in TM against me.

You're right. I did forget about that game. Didn't you say you were mostly absent there?

[sekai no ki]

It's in my ISO, the entire evolution.

Which backs up that you haven't read the game.

No, what you've posted so far is about as substantive as that crack about puppeteering. I want to know what it is about his play that makes you certain he's town.

[sekai no ki]

Yeah. Much of it was wishy washy, as you yourself characterized it. None of it really resonates for me - like I can't look at his posts and think to myself "this is what TSO sees or is writing about", and none of it explains why you'd have more than a null read of him.

[sekai no ki]

"None of it resonates" is the most bullshit way ever of saying "I don't like this so I'm going to choose to not take it on board."

I also liked how you went from "you haven't said anything" to "okay you've said loads but it doesn't resonate bye".

If you're town, then assume for just a short while that I am town too, and that I don't want to lose this game by mislynching someone. I'd rather have been yesterday's lynch than be wrong today.

I'm asking for you to show me how what you're saying about him fits what he's posted.

You're describing me as hard-tunneling. That's not something I get called out for often, but it does happen.

If he's town, then he's never really given any consideration to why we might be town and wrong rather than scum.

That's what you're accusing us of doing.

Suspend disbelief or whatever for a few minutes and show me how this terrible mutual misread happened and what we're getting wrong.

[sekai no ki]

You too, sthar. If you're town, then our mutual scumreads guarantee a town loss.

[sekai no ki]

Then you know that nacho and I were wrong just about as often as we were right and that the only reason we were off the table as a lynch option was for the most part due to being copped.

[sekai no ki]

If he's town, then he's never really given any consideration to why we might be town and wrong rather than scum.

this is a fucking lie.

Then I don't remember it. :/

I'll go back and look tonight.

[sekai no ki]

Rereading the game, I'm leaning a lot more town on TSO. his reactions to pieguy in several posts, particularly 1481 feel very much like town irritation about being misunderstood.

The reread also pointed up a lot of places where Polar Vortex was seeing the game similarly to us. The MS interactions overshadowed that in my memory.

I get small flashes of paranoia about Firebringer being so sure we're town now, mostly on the basis of one game with me, a game where he was paranoid about me all the way through day 3. :/ But, I've developed similarly strong thumbnail models of player's behavior on the basis of one game. Strong in terms of how right I thought the models were in mid-test.

The reread didn't do much to change my opinion of sthar8, and it reinforce my sense that Wingback should be in the frame.

TSO, we're going to write a detailed sthar8 case for you. It will probably be sometime late tomorrow before it's ready for prime time.

[sekai no ki]

So sekai if its not sthar8 and TSO. Who is sthar8 teammate? WingBack? I doubt heavily that it is Polar.

I doubt it's polar too.

[sekai no ki]

We're working on a wall. I don't know if it will be finished tonight, but definitely by tomorrow. If nothing else maybe it will give players something to talk about.

sthar8/wingback as a team is making sense to both of us, but we really need to go back through wingback's posts the way we're currently digging through sthar8's posts.

[sekai no ki]

You won't have much longer to wait on our case.

I won't cry if we wind up no-lynching, but I feel very sure you're scum.

[sekai no ki]

I don't think it can be that combo because they would have intentionally not hammered.

If Sthar8 is town, then firebringer has to be scum, which is why sthar8 being town makes no sense whatsoever to us.

[sekai no ki]

I wanted to wait for pieguy to look at the final writeup before I posted it, but I feel like town's wheels are spinning here, and this will at least give you something to chew on and kick around. If this doesn't adequately represent her thoughts, she can add them tonight.

the strongest point for Sthar8 being scum is the way he forms (and doesn't pursue) his reads. This is exemplified by his read on us.

he had us as scum from very early day 1, based on pieguy's reaction to metal sonic's early game, backed off slightly because we agreed with him about Firebringer being low-hanging fruit, but never made the slightest effort to refine the read until he asked ETL for her opinion of us. She ISO'd us and said we were probtown. he flat out ignored this (he said he was at work at the time she posted it. And then...nothing - no questions to her, no questions to us. The read has been static. his other reads have followed a similar pattern.

his case on kaboose in post 500 was incredibly shallow, lazy and buzzword-filled.

In 763 he posts a reads list. It's interesting that he soft-defends Wingback here.

Looking at 955 and 957, where polar vortex put out the crux of their scumreaad on Sthar8, it comes off reasonable and logical. This is where Sthar8 threw out the irrelevancy of hydra dissonance to discredit them, rather than deal with their actual suspicions.

In 964 Sthar8 says he's reread PV's ISO and is considering a vote there....and never gets back to this.

As an aside, as I read through this part of the thread again, I felt pretty bad that our focus through all of this was mostly on sorting MS. In reread, we found that PV was on this stuff in the moment, while we didn't really focus on it until we were finally coming around to MS being town.

In 976 the parallel with PV to his trajectory on us continues. he asks us to talk to him about PV, claiming that he sees no legitimate scumhunting in their ISO. I'm going to leave that absurdity to sink in...they've provided a fuckton of content throughout the game, and certainly plenty of content prior to post 976. PV's posts on page 40 basically sum up our thoughts at that point in the thread as we reread the game and talked about it. We both found ourselves nodding along, and I felt like we'd let PV down by not being more in tune and backing them up, instead of where our heads were at during that point of the game.

Other stuff of note:

Pie feels like Sthar8 tried to pre-emptively discredit him with the comments that he expected Pie to be paranoid and misread him after the team mafia game.

After Sthar8 ignored ETL's reasons for thinking we're town, he never did engage her or try to work out why she was scumreading him.

And, he never justified his reasoning for scumreading MS. his initial willingness to vote MS was as a compromise lynch. Somehow from there he went to waiting for Pie's town-MS case. And he didn't engage that case, he voted MS, as though it were an implicit "your towncase is shit". his main justification since the vote/lynch was that claiming bulletproof was a classic scum tactic.

he fake-crumbed cop. he claimed to be negative utility on day 1 and not the worst mislynch if it came to that. MS claimed Tracker (after some bullshit, but still). Instead of taking stock and considering whether another lynch (like even his own) might be better for town in the circumstance, he put MS at L-1. Given the lack of reasoning for scumreading MS prior to this, it looks particularly bad to me, but I think overall it's still a weak point. Some players, no matter what their role and the situation consider a sacrifice lynch to be bad play.

Day 2, he's done no real scumhunting. he's claimed we're scum and left it at that.

I have a long pile of Day 1 PBPA that is summarized by this post. I'll be glad to post that in spoilers if anyone wants to look through it.

[sekai no ki]

Why aren't you voting if you are so certain we have to lynch Sthar?

Who would you lynch today?

[sekai no ki]

We lose the game if that's the case so does it matter?

If we lynch him, we lose. I'm trying to get you to see it from alternate viewpoints.

You and Sekai and Firebringer are all gung ho about Sthar8 being scum and it just doesn't feel as simple. I don't get why no one besides TSO is even considering that Sekai could be scum and are giving them essentially a free pass.

Firebringer is happy to hang Sthar8 purely for voting Sekai and you aren't considering the possibility of them being scum. So, how about explaining that read?

I mean, part of me has just given up because I don't see how we win if Sekai is scum and it would rely on finding and lynching their partner first and probably nailing them in 3P LYLO.

Looking for our nonexistant partner will lose this game.

[sekai no ki]

Why aren't you voting if you are so certain we have to lynch Sthar?

Who would you lynch today?

Do the spoiler posts please.

Answer my question.

[sekai no ki]

It will take me a little while to wrap post tags around all the post numbers.

I don't really understand why you're scumreading us. Is it because our townread on your slot fell apart?

[sekai no ki]

Spoiler: ffery's pbpa wall

Post 500 is where sthar8 put out a case on kaboose. It's an incredibly shallow, lazy, buzzwordy case

Post 516 is interesting. It was in response to my explaining firebringer scumreading players who gambit and any sort of lie. Sthar8 said that he feels the same way about gambits and lies. Then later claims he crumbed a fake claim with the piggy comments.

he unvoted next time he came into the game after kaboose's claim and picked metal sonic as his next target.

763 is his next real reads list. his content to fluff ratio is pretty high up to this point in the game.


So his trajectory to this point was scumreading us for Pie's early MS suspicion, backing off because of her reasons for not scumreading Firebringer. In 772 he asks ETL about me, specifically. ETL says "no feelings" then isos us and comes out of it with a probtown read in post 795- lots of stuff we said that she agreed with, especially re MS.

self-votes as a sort of joke about ETL scumreading him.

782 - comment about a push that he thinks scum should be making on him

In 856 he acknowledges ETL's iso of us with no comment whatsoever about the content or her conclusion. This looks huge to me.

The next nonfluff thing he does is the profiling thing with firebringer. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt in calling it nonfluff. he made no conclusions about how to work with firebringer for ETL, which was the ostensible reason for the profiling in the first place. Could be because I asked for the topic to be dropped, but there were several posts after the questions that didn't seem to go anywhere.

976 he asks us and wingback about PV (no scumhunting in the iso).

[post=Also]Also[/post] in 976 MS was a compromise lynch and he preferred PV.

977 - Polar Vortex calls Sthar8's vote an omgus. he calls the post a painful contortion.

986 when asked about his reads on us and etl he replied "reading is tech - BUT, he hadn't mentioned his read of us since he asked etl for her thoughts. We had a confrontation about the profiling questions, which was initiated by me. Otherwise he would have had no interaction at all with us for several pages and several visits to the thread.

And then in 987 he quotes himself from 200 pages back saying that he suspected us because he had no scumreads and we were more likely to look town as scum than most of the player list. (this is actually pretty funny, at least wrt to me). his last comments about his etl read were 20 or so posts back from this post. This is an incredibly static read given the reasoning for scumreading us and the complete lack of effort to figure us out by questioning/discussing the game with us.

In 990 he went after Polar Vortex for a hydra dissonance defense (noting this because he later does the same thing to us.

The interaction starting at 993 with polar vortex just feels like a massive discredit and doesn't address their concerns at all (which were well laid out and which I still agree with. It's a shame that the MS wagon distracted from some of this. :/

In 1016 he says he suspects us because we're not townreading him for his early series of posts (the pig thing presumably). This crumb didn't register with me at all, though I should by now playing at MS recognize that post heavy on the nonsense is probably a crumb. I learned mafia in an environment where nobody crumbed - we learned to read PR tells and to distinguiish them (hopefully) from scum tells. Anyway, I think the reason this fake crumb didn't register and MS's crumbs did was because MS was crumbing via shared experience - a game I modded.

1024 is some of his basis for scumreading MS - because MS voted PV before sthar8 did and MS would have realized that (a form of buddying). I really hate this reasoning btw. It made equal if not more sense as town working with a townread.

1074 reads like a threat - "stop doing X or I'll scumread you for it." Probably null? In some players it could be a mild towntell (I think I express things that way sometimes as town.

1077 - votes self claims he's neg utility. In the very next post he unvotes (wingback townreads him for this :/)

1094 - this post gave me weird vibes "if i had a partner i'd give more fucks". At the time, I wondered if he was 3rd party. This could be projecting, when I'm town, even though I don't know precisely who is on my team, I'm aware they are there and I'm looking for them with the intent to cooperate if possible. Maybe as town he sees himself as more of a lone wolf?


1338 sthar8 is basically saying that we're scum for not pursuing his lynch harder?

[sekai no ki]

@ Sekai:

But you can take me through in exact detail how your townread on me fell apart and if it is convincing, I'll reconsider where I could be going wrong with you.

So far I have:

- Wingback didn't post towards the end of D1 (which is due to being busy irl. I didn't log onto MS at all that day)
- Wingback's reponse to someone being at L-1 is scummy (for which I've explained the town motive for)
- Wingback is a competent player who can play beyond what Polar and Firebringer are capable of

So, go through my D1 play. Tell me why you thought it was town in the past and why you think it is scummy now.

I can do this for my townread on you after dinner tonight. Pieguy's trajectory probably isn't identical, though we've influenced each other's reads a lot.

[sekai no ki]

Post it as is. I don't care. I want to see your behind-the-scenes work in raw form.

Your townread on me falling apart is part of a larger problem. Everyone that doubts you (me, TSO, Sthar8) are potential scum in your mind. Everyone that trusts you (Polar, Fire) are all but confirmed town to you. I don't need to explain why taking such stances is very advantageous for you as scum in the current situation.

We've firmed up a leaning townread on TSO. I think I mentioned that a few days ago. If we wind up doing the same with you, then tomorrow will be hell if we don't lose outright today.

[sekai no ki]

Why am I not even a tiny bit surprised that you discredit wholesale without dealing with an iota of the substance.

Oh right. Because that's par for the course.

I wanted to wait for pieguy to look at the final writeup before I posted it, but I feel like town's wheels are spinning here, and this will at least give you something to chew on and kick around. If this doesn't adequately represent her thoughts, she can add them tonight.

the strongest point for Sthar8 being scum is the way he forms (and doesn't pursue) his reads. This is exemplified by his read on us.

he had us as scum from very early day 1, based on pieguy's reaction to metal sonic's early game, backed off slightly because we agreed with him about Firebringer being low-hanging fruit, but never made the slightest effort to refine the read until he asked ETL for her opinion of us. She ISO'd us and said we were probtown. he flat out ignored this (he said he was at work at the time she posted it. And then...nothing - no questions to her, no questions to us. The read has been static. his other reads have followed a similar pattern.

his case on kaboose in post 500 was incredibly shallow, lazy and buzzword-filled.

In 763 he posts a reads list. It's interesting that he soft-defends Wingback here.

Looking at 955 and 957, where polar vortex put out the crux of their scumreaad on Sthar8, it comes off reasonable and logical. This is where Sthar8 threw out the irrelevancy of hydra dissonance to discredit them, rather than deal with their actual suspicions.

In 964 Sthar8 says he's reread PV's ISO and is considering a vote there....and never gets back to this.

As an aside, as I read through this part of the thread again, I felt pretty bad that our focus through all of this was mostly on sorting MS. In reread, we found that PV was on this stuff in the moment, while we didn't really focus on it until we were finally coming around to MS being town.

In 976 the parallel with PV to his trajectory on us continues. he asks us to talk to him about PV, claiming that he sees no legitimate scumhunting in their ISO. I'm going to leave that absurdity to sink in...they've provided a fuckton of content throughout the game, and certainly plenty of content prior to post 976. PV's posts on page 40 basically sum up our thoughts at that point in the thread as we reread the game and talked about it. We both found ourselves nodding along, and I felt like we'd let PV down by not being more in tune and backing them up, instead of where our heads were at during that point of the game.

Other stuff of note:

Pie feels like Sthar8 tried to pre-emptively discredit him with the comments that he expected Pie to be paranoid and misread him after the team mafia game.

After Sthar8 ignored ETL's reasons for thinking we're town, he never did engage her or try to work out why she was scumreading him.

And, he never justified his reasoning for scumreading MS. his initial willingness to vote MS was as a compromise lynch. Somehow from there he went to waiting for Pie's town-MS case. And he didn't engage that case, he voted MS, as though it were an implicit "your towncase is shit". his main justification since the vote/lynch was that claiming bulletproof was a classic scum tactic.

he fake-crumbed cop. he claimed to be negative utility on day 1 and not the worst mislynch if it came to that. MS claimed Tracker (after some bullshit, but still). Instead of taking stock and considering whether another lynch (like even his own) might be better for town in the circumstance, he put MS at L-1. Given the lack of reasoning for scumreading MS prior to this, it looks particularly bad to me, but I think overall it's still a weak point. Some players, no matter what their role and the situation consider a sacrifice lynch to be bad play.

Day 2, he's done no real scumhunting. he's claimed we're scum and left it at that.

I have a long pile of Day 1 PBPA that is summarized by this post. I'll be glad to post that in spoilers if anyone wants to look through it.

[sekai no ki]

Which is why the wall itself isn't PBPA.

Why don't you address a few of those points? Why didn't you follow up with ETL's wall about us? Why didn't you work through her scumread of you?

Why did you follow a parallel trajectory of not-making-a-case with your scumreads of ETL or PV or MS?

[sekai no ki]

ftr the wall does pretty much cover my thoughts as well. i don't really have anything else to add except the timing of sthar's vote on us today

[sekai no ki]

something i was thinking of is that, *if* we're right that it's sthar/Wingback and TSO is town, we need all four town players to vote sthar in order to lynch him

which is why it makes a lot of sense sthar would play this the way he did. he knows he won't get lynched as long as TSO won't vote him

and worst-case scenario, the game day goes to a nl and then the exact same scenario happens tomorrow except it's LYLO instead of MYLO and TSO is still guaranteed to misvote

that is probably what his scum strategy for this endgame is. which is why we need TSO to take a good hard look at what we're writing today and take a good hard look at how blatantly manipulative sthar's play this game day towards him has been (and no, their dynamic doesn't account for this - he voted us at the point he did explicitly _because_ TSO was frustrated and he was appealing to his emotional state, not because being familiar with someone causes you to place votes in MYLO in response to stuff that's going on with them).

i also have a hilarious theory about something in this game that i don't think means anything but i am bringing it up anyway just so i can come back and ask about it in postgame *if* we're correct about the scum team here.

[sekai no ki]

Ok, so some quick notes about our concerns about Wingback:

associatives with sthar8
his focus on who he wasn't scum with when sthar8 went to L-3. he seemed more interested in calling himself confirmed not scum with so-and-so than anything else going on at the time. It was this behavior that squicked me badly enough that I unvoted and did a reality check.

And finally, with our TSO read changed, PoE with a dollop of MS' concerns about him not doing anything town enough that a player of his obvious caliber couldn't fake it. I recognize the irony of this statement. But there are a dozen or so scum games of mine on this site that attest to where my skills and lacks as scum lie. And Snowstorm saw my most recent scum game - as a hydra, but he knows what contributions in that game were mine.

If I didn't feel so confident about Sthar8 being scum, I'd probably have put our vote on Wingback purely based on his behaviors right after Sthar8 hit L-3.

One more piece of data, re TSO: In a random look through some of his games we ran across this game, where he expressed some similar sentiment to here. It was a much longer game than this one, and he was considerably more invested, but it's a similar expression of frustration at effort made for a bad result. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6233092

[sekai no ki]

So do we!

[sekai no ki]

Your premise is bad then. We're not scum. If you're town, you can't help but get closer to a solution to this game if you stop looking for our partner.

[sekai no ki]

Wingback, what are your thoughts about our write-up on Sthar8?

[sekai no ki]

gg scum.

sorry town. :/

[sekai no ki]

Maybe the takeaway is that layers of fake claims can backfire in a big way.

[sekai no ki]

nah they just suck.

i was pretty fucking obvtown.

great job PV

That's a statement that means a lot coming from other players. Not so much as a self-declaration, unfortunately.

[sekai no ki]

also ffery i claimed c auguste dupin. poe mafia.

I saw that. It was those two posts that led to my backing off. You had more work to convince pie.

[sekai no ki]

srs question. is our avatar annoying/offputting?