Micro 544: A Midnight Sun, Part 2 ~game over~

[Soren]

VOTE: Suzune

[Soren]

Let's do dis

Edgar obvtowned in his first post, unless delen flips scum later.

UNVOTE:

LET'S GO THIS WAY!

VOTE: Jin & Mugen


-Elbirn

Not seeing the obv town. He contradicted himself by saying that he likes wagons to get us out of RVS, but then proceeds to back off the wagon.
What do you find obvtown about him?

VOTE: Soren

Did not like that confirm and then magically showing up as soon as the threads open.

What confirm?

[Soren]

Soren wagon is good.

~Jin.

You didn't answer my question.
And here you're saying the wagon on me is good when there is only one vote on me?

That's a serious post, FYI.

He's stiff.

Stiff meaning what exactly?

VOTE: other head

There's a difference between fast RVS and accidently turbo lynching and cutting off info.

Your campaigning for our lynch before we even post is weird as well.~Titus

Really meh on this too.

Another post from you expressing your attitude toward things but not explaining your attitude towards it. I agree with the post because the distinction she brought up is good. So I'm curious to hear what you find meh about it.

@post 17 soren:

He's obvtown for showing concern that we'd derp and quicklynch without realizing how low the threshold to lynch is. Scum wouldn't give a shit because it'd be beneficial...unless delen is scum with him.

It's ~something~

You're right to say that scum wouldn't care much because it's beneficial. But isn't that a naive way to approach how scum would play? Surely a good scum player would say what Edgar said to gain town cred, like what you gave to him. I get what you're saying, but to go as extreme to call it obvtown, I find concerning, I wold only go so far as to say that it gives me town leans.

Also it wasnt...really a contradiction and he didn't back off the wagon, he was never on it.

I stopped being a contradiction once he qualified that the scenario was different: can't have fast rvs wagons when you're playing a micro.

I suppose there is some truth to what you are saying, I guess our opinion on this just differs slightly.

[Soren]

VOTE: Suzune that post pings me.

I can see your concern on it. It's like Suzune is back pedaling on that post and just adding to it which doesn't actually do much to further the game state. However, I would not be okay with that post if that's all she's doing so I want to see what other posts she is making further down the game. But at that time of your vote she didn't have other posts so your vote is justified.

@Soren - That would be my other head who voted you, so you'll have to wait on Mugen/LQ for your answer. I'm not going to explain my read in depth right now because I want to get people's opinions on it for future note. Also, good to see you again!
So far, the people I kinda like out of this are Other Head, and maybe Spiffah. (The timing on the vote is okay, even if I don't feel a Suz lynch) Iron Giant might be, but I want to know about the heads, just because I'm using some individual tells right now to reach that conclusion.

~Jin

Good to see you again too!
I disagree with those reads, or thoughts...? They seem to be saying that you have a town lean on them at least. Other Head hasn't done anything for me to call him town, elaborate please? (proof read activate, I town read him further down this post but at the time of your post, there wasn't anything that made me town read him) I can agree with the Spiffeh gut town lean (?) The vote is nice, but I want to see something more for that town lean to solidify.

Soren I find is pretty stiff usually anyways.
That would be a null tell my friend.

-Fire, vedith is the scum head guys.

I've always found him a bit careless & fluffy, honestly. Like, he does try to play the game seriously & all, but this is a bit straightfoward & tryhardish for him.

My fluffy days are over.

VOTE: Suzune that post pings me.

I just worry that with no one really talking the town will be unable to gain any ground. The worst thing we can do is stagnate before starting too look.

I don't know, I feel like to have the right to make a comment like that, you yourself will have to have instigated at least some discussion. I acknowledge that there hasn't been much in the game to comment, but I've been able to pick some things out that I wanted to understand further, and I'm sure there are things for you to pick out too. How do you feel about Iron Giant's obv town read in his 11?

Spoiler:

Soren wagon is good.

~Jin.

You didn't answer my question.
And here you're saying the wagon on me is good when there is only one vote on me?

That's a serious post, FYI.

He's stiff.

Stiff meaning what exactly?

VOTE: other head

There's a difference between fast RVS and accidently turbo lynching and cutting off info.

Your campaigning for our lynch before we even post is weird as well.~Titus

Really meh on this too.

Another post from you expressing your attitude toward things but not explaining your attitude towards it. I agree with the post because the distinction she brought up is good. So I'm curious to hear what you find meh about it.

@post 17 soren:

He's obvtown for showing concern that we'd derp and quicklynch without realizing how low the threshold to lynch is. Scum wouldn't give a shit because it'd be beneficial...unless delen is scum with him.

It's ~something~

You're right to say that scum wouldn't care much because it's beneficial. But isn't that a naive way to approach how scum would play? Surely a good scum player would say what Edgar said to gain town cred, like what you gave to him. I get what you're saying, but to go as extreme to call it obvtown, I find concerning, I wold only go so far as to say that it gives me town leans.

Also it wasnt...really a contradiction and he didn't back off the wagon, he was never on it.

I stopped being a contradiction once he qualified that the scenario was different: can't have fast rvs wagons when you're playing a micro.

I suppose there is some truth to what you are saying, I guess our opinion on this just differs slightly.

This entire post is way too defensive and not enough gamesolvey.

~Mugen

To solve the game, one must first take a step into the game. That is me taking a step into the game.

VOTE: Soren

Did not like that confirm and then magically showing up as soon as the threads open.

What confirm?

So, like, I'm waiting days and days for this game to start and you do nothing to make that happen. It was a suspicion that you were chatting it up in the Scum PT.

Okay I get what you're saying now. I did not even know that we had to confirm for the game. My role PM didn't tell me that I had to confirm my role. Nor did my role PM contain the game thread and I wasn't bothered to go look for the game thread on my own. And now I just checked the OP and second post of the game thread and low and behold it tells me to confirm my role in the second post. I did not see this prior to the game start because 1, my role pm didn't mention anything about confirming and 2, my role pm didn't contain a link to the game thread, therefore I didn't see that I had confirm my role. I was confused that I didn't had to confirm my role like I have to do in other games, I too lazy to ask the mod and just assumed that I'll get notified once the game started, which I did. I too was waiting and wondering when the game would start.

Why the fuck are people town reading me I have literally done nothing.

I find it really odd too.

Anyway I voted for Suzune because she opted to take the "town cheerleader" role instead of comment on anything going on. It looked like she was trying to endear herself to everyone with a "go team!" mindset.

Right, I can agree with this and I like your vote even more now.

None of the early stuff made you feel anything?

The only think that really stood out to me was the Iron Giant. The way he was talking was interesting but not really lynch worthy, but I got a good feeling from it. LQ usually stands out to be because of their style.

I don't like that it took Spiffeh questioning you for you to input your own independent thoughts into the game.

---

My Other Head Is Scum's string of posting in page 3 rings very town to me. He sort of casually plops himself into the game, this gives me town leans because scum tends to play more cautious to not reveal themselves. When you play casually you open yourself to more attacks as you can miss a lot of things. Regardless, after a few posts My Other Head Is Scum begins to post his reads and how he feels about the game. 56 I find this read to come from town. He's frustrated that he can't read someone and that frustration is giving me town leans. 61 and 62 are giving more reads and I'm liking them. It tells us how he's feeling about the players at this stage of the game and it's somewhere he will start the game from and work the game out from there.

I'm pretty sharply in disagreement with you on Soren. I've seen him as Town twice, both times as mislynch bait, and he had a really different attitude. He was kinda light & fluffy, and not always on point, but it was a cheerful, relaxed attitude. I won't go so far to say that he didn't care what anyone thought of him, but here...it's like he's checking off a list consciously.

I also find his disappearance aggravating. I don't see how you can say that he didn't try as scum, and consider his play to be better than that.

In other words, his play is too 'try-hardish' in the same sense Elbirn was in Midnight Sun #1. He's doing stuff that looks 'Town', in the sense that people tend to Townread that sort of thing, (as a resident try but is not what I'm used to expecting from him. So far, he's picking apart play for being 'weird' rather than analyzing it. Hence the scumread. Both heads are agreement as of the last time I chatted with LQ. (No, he hasn't explained exactly what his first post was about. Our thread looks a bit like the neighborhood thread I was sharing with Molla.)

I can understand where you're coming from with your meta read on me. But that was months ago, like 5 months even? Fire and Vedith has been in recent games with me. I took a break from mafia somewhere around july-mid september, I didn't like the ways I approached the game and not giving the games my attention. So I came back playing different now, I've decided to stop posting fluff and stay on topic. Fire and Vedith's meta read on me are more recent and therefore more reliable.

Curious what the point of bringing up whether or not you were being wagoned was?

Because it felt like you were commenting that the wagon on me was good when there wasn't a wagon on me.

Because it's a bit of an unrealistic take on the situation. Titus does have instances where she gets too wrapped up in a theory, and she seems to dislike bad play a fair bit, so I'm less confident on this read at the moment. Hence why my vote is on you now.

I disagree that it's an unrealistic take on the situation. I think it demonstrates a realistic scenario. Mostly because I have seen fast RVS votes, but never a turbo lynch on day 1. And when people are fast RVS voted to L-1, there's almost always someone who points it out and town jumps of the speed lynch and begins to evaluate the game more deeply. But I do agree on the titus read there.

Really, it's not what Soren's saying that's pinging me, (He's technically right, actually.) it's the fact that a player I know to be a bit on the relaxed, fluffy side is suddenly playing 'by the book', so to speak. The most likely explanation that comes to mind is that he wants the Towncred that comes with that playstyle. Basically, I'm after Soren based on tone & timing.
This isn't the 'be-all, end-all' case to prove Soren's scum, but he's managing to ping me on a number of points, and I'm happy with where my vote is at present. I certainly want to see him get in here and play with us.

You noticing these things about me is giving me town vibes. You have a good memory of our previous games and how I've played and you're looking at my play in this game and comparing to how I had played before, and it's different, and I like that you noticed that and are following up on it. Mainly because what you are focusing on is rather small, it's based on tone and timing instead of finding a certain thing that I'm doing to be particularly scummy. And you noticing that is telling me that you have a keen eye, you're looking at the game closely, you want to solve the game and you're starting with trying to solve me.

Also, I'm meh on how he's phrasing his stand here, in that he's avoiding disagreeing with the Iron Giant.

Well I don't 100% disagree with it. Rather I'm toning down his opinion on it.

---

So far my town leans are on Jin and Mugen, Spiffeh and My Other Head Is Scum. Rest are mostly null. And I'm keeping my vote on Suzune because of what I've said in this post. I need to see more from her before I decide to remove my vote. Right now I don't see where she is standing in the game.

[Soren]

My fluffy days are over.

Since when?

Since I started to come back to play on mafiascum around mid september.

Well considering I do not read it is as an obvious town read, I guess I do not understand what there is to see. The pictures suggest to me that the post is made by Shiro. However, I do not sense ant particularly town feeling from it. Perhaps I am missing something?

It seems you do not have much strong feelings about it hmmmm.

Going forward I tend to like Jin and Mugen. I get a good town feeling from them. Given who it is that makes sense to me too. They are tough more analytical people who have strong town games. However, this looks to me like LQ's game.

I would like a bit more elaboration. Here you pick two things to town read from, their analytical nature, and your meta read on LQ. What analytical posts from them do you think comes from town!JinandMugen and not scum!JinandMugen? And can you explain you meta read on LQ a bit more please.

Given that Delenn is Titus and Kling I am surprised there is not more from them, at least about game theory or what the town should do to win. I would love to see how more posts from that person.

I agree with the part about not seeing more from them. Do you think this lack of posting is indicative of scum?

Soren strikes me as kind of odd. While I associate a lot of posting with his town game, he seems kind of stiff about it. Although given that Fire and his hydra are being kind of odd to perhaps there is something in the water.

What are you finding stiff about me?

---

You have a few reads, but you don't really go into much detail and give a general comment about it. I want to make sure that your reads are genuine and not making reads for the sake of making reads.

VOTE: Soren

Did not like that confirm and then magically showing up as soon as the threads open.

What confirm?

So, like, I'm waiting days and days for this game to start and you do nothing to make that happen. It was a suspicion that you were chatting it up in the Scum PT.

Okay I get what you're saying now. I did not even know that we had to confirm for the game. My role PM didn't tell me that I had to confirm my role. Nor did my role PM contain the game thread and I wasn't bothered to go look for the game thread on my own. And now I just checked the OP and second post of the game thread and low and behold it tells me to confirm my role in the second post. I did not see this prior to the game start because 1, my role pm didn't mention anything about confirming and 2, my role pm didn't contain a link to the game thread, therefore I didn't see that I had confirm my role. I was confused that I didn't had to confirm my role like I have to do in other games, I too lazy to ask the mod and just assumed that I'll get notified once the game started, which I did. I too was waiting and wondering when the game would start.

Right. And it can't be proven one way or another except if I ask you this following question and you give a shit answer.

How many games have you played where you don't have to confirm? What kind of games are they typically? Why exactly did you feel no compulsion to check to see if you needed to confirm or not? Why didn't you read the OP in this very experimental setup? Its things like this that really make me go "Huh????"

There has been no games that I have played on mafiascum where it didn't require me to confirm.
Well, out of all my games, in my role pm the mod would include the game thread link and would also tell me to confirm by replying or confirm in thread. This had no mention of it at all. Perhaps I should have messaged the mod and check, but I wasn't too bothered or worried about it.
And I mostly skimmed the OP when the mod told me the game had started and linked me the thread.

Given that Delenn is Titus and Kling I am surprised there is not more from them, at least about game theory or what the town should do to win. I would love to see how more posts from that person.

I agree with this. All I re call them doing is getting defensive over me question Edgar.

-Vedith

Klingon here. Sorry for not being around, crazy busy weekend.

Anyway, briefly, Titus sees Jin and Mugen as Town, I'm more nullish.

We're only 4 pages in, so I can't expect much, but I'm a bit worried about Suzune... There's the slightest pinging sound when I read her posts.

I don't remember getting defensive, that must have been the Titus head. Funny that Edgar isn't around after only 1 post...

I'd like to see more elaboration on the JinandMugen and suzune read.

@Soren - Can you link me to some of these recent games? Preferably a Town & a Scum game if possible. I'm probably just going to skim over your ISO, but it'd be nice to get a feel for your playstyle & thought process for comparison.

Also, maybe you can start giving an overview of your thoughts, please? I'd rather see you entering the water from that point right now.

Here's a list of the recent games since I came back to playing from my break. Looking back at them, there's quite a few scum games.

Scum games:
Micro 524
Micro 525
Micro 533

Town Games:
Micro 529
Micro 536 | PS. this one is not worth checking because it reached endgame after 1 post.

Did the last part of my 76 not give you an overview of my thoughts?

---

I quite like My Milked Eek's vote in his 96, he shows us what he's thinking and why he finds it scummy.
However, I would like to see some other reads too please.

[Soren]

Overview from Elbirn: "I have enough time to give a naked one word read on everyone" Edition

Jin & Mugen: town
Suzune: town (also random fluff question what is your native language?
Soren: I think he's scum but he's town
Delen: scum
Milked eel: town but too lazy to remove shiro vote and also I should probably be a gentleman and discuss it with him
Spiffeh: town
Edgar: edgar pls where did you go oh fuck you are scum with delen aren't you
Other head is scum: town maybe?

Elaboration on the town read on Suzune please? I'm not seeing it. I'm mostly okay with the rest of your reads, would love for an elaboration on those too, but I'm more focused on Suzune here.

---

@105 I can understand your reads and don't disagree with them. The Jin read seems a bit too general though. And based on that post one would think you should be voting for The titus/kling head. But you're not and are still sitting on your RVS vote. Why?

For what it's worth, here's a Klingoncelt head reads list:

Edgar Allan Pro (Varsoon hydra) - Needs to post some major content by tomorrow afternoon, is active elsewhere on the site. Lean Scum

Iron Giant (Shiro + Elbirn) - Spent the first day of the game talking up Edgar as Town. Based on a single post. Definitely Scum

Jin and Mugen - Town

My Milked Eek - Maybe it's OMGUS-y, but to me it looks like he's trying really hard to nitpick us into a mislynch. He hates my ellipses? Really? Lean Scum

MOHIS (Vedith + Firebringer) - Certainly the most fun hydra in the game. Lean Town

Soren - Is getting varying reads from people that played with him before, he says his meta's changed... Null

Spiffeh - Dude gets all paranoid and whiny if other players think he's Scum. Now he's getting all paranoid and whiny cause other players think he's Town. WTF? Null

Suzune - Lean Town for now

You have MOHIS as lean town but you're voting for them.

[Soren]

The game has stagnated a bit.

[Soren]

Well, stagnation is but a boat that requires some rocking. It happens in all games, the pace of games doesn't always stay the same throughout the entire game.

[Soren]

Wow, if that's a real gladiate I think it's too early. Sure, I'm not getting town vibes from Delenn, but it would have been better to assess it further, no?

[Soren]

So faked gladiate for reactions.

[Soren]

That's pretty town to be honest.

[Soren]

Was busy today but it seems there wasn't much posts to catch up on.

[Soren]

Welcome hi im Yakko! Less or a catch up post, more of a read list, nonetheless, I agree with most of your reads, except for some. I have a town lean on Spiffeh, mostly because of how he explained his scum read, but you did make a good point that he hasn't commented on much of others than giving out that suzune read.
@Spiffeh, do you have any reads besides suzune?

[Soren]

We have 4 days left, we are going to have to come to a consensus or we are going to be doing no lynch.

Off the table IMO:
Jin and Mugen
Delenn
Suzune
Soren

I don't think Suzune should be off the table. I also do not follow this considering that you're not town reading Suzune in your 239. Care to explain?

[Soren]

Haven't really seen anything from you that I would definitively call town.

[Soren]

Anyways Soren I would like to see a read list from you instead of you clinging to your suzune read for dear life asac pls. Gun to my head I'd hesitantly say no. I wanna hear more from Soren.

I have Jin, Spiff and MOHIS as town.
Edgar, you and Iron as null.
Delenn slight scum lean, based on gut and I haven't seen anything from them that makes me want to say they are town.
Suzune scum.

[Soren]

The game has stagnated into a phase of people just giving out their reads. We need to a flip to progress the game.

[Soren]

What is duppin's scum game and which posts from him in this game indicates as such, Delenn?

[Soren]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Soren

I lied I wanna sheep jin.

But jin if you could remind me why this is a good choice that'd be awesome

-Elbirn

I don't like this at all, because this shows that you didn't give much thought behind your vote. Why are you getting someone else to explain your vote?

[Soren]

Inductive reasoning is flawed because observed instances do not allows us to make claims about unobserved instances.
Just because his gut has been true in the past, doesn't mean his gut will also be true in the future.
Do you not have your own scum read?

[Soren]

Inductive reasoning is flawed because observed instances do not allows us to make claims about unobserved instances.
Just because his gut has been true in the past, doesn't mean his gut will also be true in the future.
Do you not have your own scum read?

I'm going to go ahead and adamantly disagree with this. While on a Meta sense, yes I would say you are right, but the thing is, our subconscious works miracles through Inductive reasoning and that's just how it is.

Rationally it doesn't add up. It is human custom that makes you think so.

[Soren]

People only rely on their gut when they can't think rationally or, in better terms, have no rational basis to assume things.

[Soren]

I'm not saying that drawing from your gut or your subconscious is wrong, but nor is it entirely right. I'm just saying that I would go for rationality over a gut feel any day.

[Soren]

sure

[Soren]

Jin what do you think of Iron's vote on me?

[Soren]

(Anecdotal version, I've had one game where I've quite literally pushed only Townies on gut/meta, a couple games where I've generally been more of a detriment to Town than a help, and almost a dozen where I've done extremely well, including a multiball game where I can 4-5 scum out of seven pegged right off the first day, and only three misread Townies - only one of which was a serious scumread. Gut works.)

Survivorship bias, you focus on all the times that your gut did work (even then, that could just be explained away with luck) and do not present available data of when your gut didn't work. Tell me, how many times

didn't

your gut work?
Look we're going back and forth a lot. Gut is fine, in so far as there's nothing else you can draw upon. But Iron trusting your gut I dislike, it's really lazy on his part and sheepish. He doesn't even know your gut reason and asks you to explain it

after

he voted for me.

Jin what do you think of Iron's vote on me?

Believable. It's a little silly, but I like people sheeping me more than I like them ignoring me.

I think you're a bit bias here with him "admiring" your gut. I really don't like how you're shrugging his vote off. What is your read on Iron?

---

Deadline is coming and not one else is on the Suzune train. We need a flip and I'll be okay with voting Delenn or Iron. Based on the current vote count I'll go for Iron.
VOTE: Iron Giant
Also,

What is duppin's scum game and which posts from him in this game indicates as such, Delenn?

I'm still waiting for a response Delenn.

[Soren]

@376 Tryhard is not alignment indicative for me. I try hard when I get motivated to play mafia. Suzune can back me up on this, I was town in a newbie game with her and my play was described as "hyper aggressive" or "hyper active" forget which one, and many scum read me for that in that game. Which is why I can see you would scum read me for it, and it's up to your discretion as to whether you want to accept my self meta, but I'm being honest and that's just how I play some times and it's a null tell. Your only reason to scum read me is based on a null tell, so I'm going to have to say that you need to rethink your vote.

[Soren]

@Suzune what do you think of Iron's vote on me and does that help reinforce or de-enforce (not even a word but whatever) your town read on him?

[Soren]

I ended up posting "lighter comments", as you put it, because the game stagnated to simply people posting their reads.
Explain why it was town motivated decision to me please.

[Soren]

While the train itself appeared to come out of nowhere. When you go back and look at where it came from there were many posts by all of us saying where w stood. One reads list after another. The push gathered as many curious loose ends as possible to push one target. As I my self realised that leaving my vote on someone that could propel no interest was useless, I either needed a stronger case, which I simply lacked at this moment, or to reevaluate targets. (I actually dreamed I was re analyzing the topic).

Therefore, I think the post was townie motivated in order to try to choose a target that people were kind of suspicious about.

Nope, it sounds really sheepish. You didn't even comment on his actual reason for voting for me. Iron sheeped Jin's gut feel, a gut feel which Iron didn't even fully comprehend himself. Do you not see the problem with that or is it just because you are scum buddies with Iron? Because that would make a lot of sense.

[Soren]

Ehh, I disagree. Can you help me understand your thought process by showing me the reads page that makes his action and reason logically sensible?

[Soren]

UNVOTE:

Can someone explain to my ehy they think Iron giant is scum.

Thoughts on Iron sheeping Jin's gut feel without even comprehending the source of the gut feel?

Ehh, I disagree. Can you help me understand your thought process by showing me the reads page that makes his action and reason logically sensible?

i can do it for you in about an hour. I'm o my phone and I cannot make easy multi quote posts from here, since you can use the highlight trick on a computer.

Okies.

[Soren]

Was that a roundabout way of asking if I think it is susp?

I wouldn't really call it a roundabout way.

[Soren]

Good job Suzune and Yakko for pulling us the win! That sneaky quicklynch at the end gave me a good laugh.

Vyse and Lickety, it was a pleasure playing with you two, I'll definitely want to play with you guys again in the future.

[Soren]

Vyze or Lickety, any feedback on my general play/stiffness during day 1 that I can improve upon?

[Soren]

Vyze or Lickety, any feedback on my general play/stiffness during day 1 that I can improve upon?

Probably, but you might have to wait a few, if you don't mind? It's Thanksgiving, and while we aren't really the type to have huge parties & the like, I dunno that I'll have time until tomorrow or Saturday.

No worries, take your time. And hope you have a lovely thanksgiving ~