Micro 549: Everything Is A Lie 2 (Game Over)

[Postie]

Counsel is the private army ran by dead and wg

Well, that's what it was last game. I'm doubtful it would function in the exact same way this game.

[Postie]

Ninja'd by Davsto

[Postie]

VOTE: Dongempire

Because coding fail.

[Postie]

VOTE: vonflare

Nails are dangerous and could be used to kill people.

[Postie]

YOU CAN'T POST THAT WGEURTS YOU'RE NOT IN THIS GAME

THOSE WHO LIED ONE TOO MANY TIMES (MODKILLED):

Spoiler:

wgeurts

[Postie]

so should I dayvig dongempire?

Do et.

[Postie]

Dongempire is now freaking out why that last slither of info was leaked in a votecount in his private topic.

Okay, if "that last slither of info" means the "info" in the vote count before that one, then that means Dongempire's private topic is this thread.

What if everything is a lie and we are all scum

[Postie]

Postie ima shoot you

Yes pls.

[Postie]

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Tell my children I love them.

[Postie]

How do we even scumhunt in this game

[Postie]

VOTE: The Counsel

[Postie]

But I want to know what happens if we lynch the Counsel.

[Postie]

Postie do you think the Counsel is scum?

They might be.

[Postie]

You might be.

[Postie]

Part of me thinks killing The Counsel will do something exciting.

[Postie]

What if we are all secretly double-voters?

VOTE: The Counsel

[Postie]

VOTE: The Counsel
VOTE: The Counsel
VOTE: The Counsel
VOTE: The Counsel

They're dead now, right?

[Postie]

I got a town pm but who knows

Dong, what was this even referring to and how was your supposed town role PM relevant?

[Postie]

I got a town pm but who knows

Dong, what was this even referring to and how was your supposed town role PM relevant?

Dong pls.

[Postie]

VOTE: BulletNLynchproof
Both he and Postie have looked really uncomfortable trying to find someone to vote, and I'm not a fan of the Lilith hop on/off, both times with a claim that he read the game.

I actually think BNL's over-eagerness looks pretty town.

[Postie]

Carefullness is a scum trait

He doesn't look careful at all though? Unless that's your point.

[Postie]

That's fence-sitty and indecisive, if anything.
The way he posted multiple times really quickly came across as the opposite of careful to me.

[Postie]

Example is thr "Dong may be a loudmouth, or he might not be" (not his exact words but close)

Also, this isn't really what he said; his opinion was pretty clear.

[Postie]

"Ofc this may be a lie;

but I think it hints at Dong's role.

"

[Postie]

>implying fence sitting is not anti town

What gave you the impression I think it isn't anti-town?

[Postie]

"Ofc this may be a lie;

but I think it hints at Dong's role.

"

But still doesnt takes an actual stance lol

Ikr it's like he doesn't give his opinion anywhere.

VOTE: Dongempire

[Postie]

If he was town and thought that there was an option of me being not loudmouth or scum he wouldnt mention it at all.

I... what?

[Postie]

This service has performed an evil crime,
Which I shall spell out, with riddle and rhyme.

One letter repeats itself, first fourth and last,
It's a letter in fleeting, and also in fast.

The second letter, it rolls of the tongue quick,
It's one that's in stalk, but not so in stick.

The third letter, stuck all through time as it flew,
From the start of the universe to the end of you.

Hopefully, now, you can see what I spell,
And you will join in and vote Postie as well!

flu?
fau?

I don't get it.

[Postie]

Any reason to post all your thoughts in the form of a riddle? Not clear for town. Or is it a Post Restriction?

Does Davsto normally post like this?

I think it's pretty clear that it's a post restriction.

[Postie]

Tbh, I'm starting to see where shos is coming from with the stuff on vonflare. His ISO doesn't look great. Then again, I'm not familiar with his meta so I might have to look into that first.

[Postie]

What a coincidence that not too long ago you thought of a very similar role yourself.

Also, why wouldn't this just be a passive ability - i.e. Hammerer?

VOTE: BulletNLynchproof

[Postie]

And is there any reason you claimed this now rather than at the start of the day?

[Postie]

What a coincidence that not too long ago you thought of a very similar role yourself.

Are we just going to ignore the fact that BNL posted a role he made up in the "worst role ideas" thread that has the same name and works the same way as the role he just claimed, minus the "self" part and fake flip?

Why are we not lynching this?

[Postie]

Just because I got a role that coincidentally is very similar to a role I posted makes people think I'm fakeclaiming?

Is there any reason it shouldn't?

[Postie]

id rather lynch postie for post 238 instead tbh.

Why, exactly? You said you didn't like it because you thought I made a poor point (??? lol) - are poor points scummy?

[Postie]

Also, if you're going to assume we should let BNL off the hook because you think wgeurts could just be messing with us, then you're going to have to believe that the he came up with BNL's role

after

he signed up for the game, especially for him. I mean it's possible but I don't really see it as likely.

[Postie]

Are either of you going to stop lurking and answer? We can see when you last logged in, you know.

Well, BNL can't post right now unless he wants to hammer himself or admit he fakeclaimed that role.

UNVOTE:

Now he can answer.

[Postie]

I just recounted and you're right. You said on the last page that he was at L-1 so I got confused.

VOTE: BulletNLynchproof

[Postie]

Yeah, I misread it as sort-of like "That's L-1, [and] if BNL's hammerer claim is true[... then he has to hammer himself if he posts]"

[Postie]

Apart from posting fluff, a lot of posts are scummy.

I wouldn't say fluff is scummy unless you do it persistently just to look like you're contributing. At the time when my content was fluffy, we were mostly still in RVS and there was barely anything going on. I wasn't using it as a way of trying to get out of providing useful content; I just didn't have much to work with.

#53 I would say is a scumslip, as she said "What if we are all scum". Town won't say this, as they know its wrong and won't lie about it.

It was quite obviously a joke.

In #69 she claims she doesn't know how to scumhunt, and yet later she claims that I'm scum, and even pushes it, which shows self contradiction.

You're misrepping. My actual words were "How do we even scumhunt in this game", which reflected my confusion at the trollish nature of everything that was going on.

Furthermore, she was townreading me at first, then switches me to a scumread after I claimed Compulsive Hammerer, saying it is a likely fakeclaim from me as I have posted a similar role, and even pushes on it. However, not only is this accusation against me false, it is also a weak argument against me, since not only is it a possible role, a scum would have chosen something better to fakeclaim. In fact, this argument is not strong, even almost a null point, so you can see it is scummy to push null points.

Is it a weak point though? Is it really? Are you kidding me?

[Postie]

Also, that vote on me is really ill-timed and borderline OMGUS.

[Postie]

2. You have evidence that his claim is a lie

This is the entire reason I'm voting him though?

That and his reaction to me pointing out how suspicious it is that his role is so similar to the one he posted in the "worst role ideas" thread. I would have expected a town player to respond along the lines of "Oh, okay, yeah, that's actually quite weird." not words to the effect of "What are you talking about there's nothing weird about this situation at all."

[Postie]

Well, he didn't claim the

exact

role, so I think maybe he based the role on that role subconsciously. That or he just thought he changed the role enough that it wouldn't be suspicious.

[Postie]

Is it just me that's actually getting more worried about dong because of these messages because feel like they should be a double-bluff?

[Postie]

Oh, that's interesting, Davsto.

Does anyone else have information to share or get objects at night?

[Postie]

Nope, sorry.

[Postie]

Well, at least I was right about BNL having thought up his role himself.
I could be persuaded to vote BNL because some of his reasoning feels uber contrived, but I would have been pushing for a lynch on dong yesterday if BNL's fakeclaim hadn't been so obviously fake, and the quality of dong's posts hasn't really improved since, so...

Ugh. Not really sure which way I should be voting.

[Postie]

VOTE: Postie

?

[Postie]

Yeah, but why are you scumreading me?

[Postie]

How would people feel about a massclaim?

[Postie]

I figured since I'm hardcore townreading Davsto and lilith, shos is looks like he's probably a town cop, vonflare is probably confirmed town because of shos, and I know I'm town, that leaves GuiltyLion and Flubbernugget as my top scumspects and a massclaim would be useful in figuring out if they're really scum or not or if there's something else going on. So if we were to do a massclaim I'd want Flubber and GL to go first.

I kinda have no idea if we should be claiming full roles or just parts of them though.

@shos

- Isn't it likely you'll be nightkilled tonight? Is keeping your role secret worth it despite this?

[Postie]

Postie, why are you townreading lilith?

Same reason I'm townreading Davsto; her posts look like she's actually trying to figure the game out. The way she kept quoting herself like a billion times to push for her questions to be answered also feels pretty town. And I have another minor reason for townreading her that I can't talk about right now.

[Postie]

I'd be on board with a GuiltyLion lynch.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[Postie]

Mass nameclaim sounds alright. I am swindler.

[Postie]

Guiltylion is probtown if I judge by the pressure on him so quick

There are literally two votes on him.

[Postie]

I know I haven't explained my scumread on Postie yet, that was intentional as I wanted to see her reaction as well as the reactions of others.

What kind of reaction were you looking for?

Shos even explicitly said he's not a cop, that was his mason Dong.

Oh, right, yeah. My brain screwed there somewhere. I don't know how.

I'm a bit skeptical of taking 'shos and vonflare are conftown' as a given, they could easily be a scum faction. shos' 180 degree turn around would make sense if he were another traitor and vonflare attacked him, which could also explain no NKs on N1. Just throwing these ideas out there, I'm still thinking on them, but that's basically why I think Postie's PoE line of thinking is altogether too easy on D2 and not really a town thought process.

I hadn't thought about some of those things; those are good points.

[Postie]

Ugh. If I end up at L-1 while I'm away, please don't hammer without giving me the chance to claim (very important).

[Postie]

- Awkward voting habits to start the game: Postie RVS voted Dong in 16, but then immediately made a second (RVS?) vote on vonflare in 26, then switched to the Counsel in 70. This all happened in the span of 40ish minutes RL time, so it's all pretty much fun and games at that point, but I tend to scumread people who votehop a lot for silly reasons because it reads to me like they don't want to commit to anything that could get them negative attention (why is your vote on [x]? = 'oh I just left it there, haven't really found a better target yet', etc).

We were essentially in RVS, making this a somewhat moot point.

Plus, I don't like people voting the Counsel, which seems to be just a distracting mechanic that can be used by scum to avoid legitimate productive scumhunting. My question to Postie in 74 was meant to kind of push this point - lynching the Counsel doesn't tell us anything and most likely would not be a scumlynch, in my view - and she kinda dodged the point of my question by saying she thinks the Counsel might be scum.

I was intrigued by the fact that the Counsel was votable and wanted them lynched out out curiosity.

- I didn't like her vote on Dong in 169. Part of this is my past experience with Dong, he's a very trolly and difficult to read player, but that makes him easily mislynchable and this vote seemed to me like a convenient way to take an argument that is fundamentally non-alignment-indicative ("did vonflare express an opinion on Dong or not") and use it to start a push.

Focusing on a specific part of what BNL was saying and ignoring context came across as dong trying to push something that seemed contrived.

- BNL vote based on mechanics: So I had a back and forth with Postie in the thread about this, but I thought it was a bit of a reach to vote BNL because he claimed a role that he had thought of before. At the time I didn't mind it too much because I had my own scumread on BNL and I wanted to see his lynch through, but "your roleclaim is a lie" was a convenient opinion to take and I definitely would have scumread her a hell of a lot harder for sheeping me on that wagon if BNL had flipped town. Dong basically shares the same opinion in 276.

Are you forgetting that I was

100% correct about BNL making up his role

? Either I made an extremely lucky guess or I, you know,

had a well founded point

. Using this as a point against me is all kinds of ew.

- Lack of 'town paranoia': I kind of made this point already earlier today, but it didn't strike me as a town mindset in how quick Postie was to assume shos/vonflare are town, couple them with her townreads, and narrow her lynchpool down to two people immediately. It's an easy way to excuse tunneling on one or two players (Flubber feels especially like lynchbait as he has been hardcore lurking), and I think town!Postie would be a lot more open towards questioning everyone involved today and letting some pushes/threads of conversation play out. I didn't like how she basically declared that she's on board for my lynch in 460 when I've barely done anything yet today, either.

Firstly, I didn't

assume

shos and vonflare were town, as evidenced by my use of the word "probably"; it was a loose hypothesis. Secondly, you may not have done much today, but I really didn't like your "reaction test", which was partly what pushed me to vote you. And I don't like your explanation of it much either.

[Postie]

I'm not sure I understand your point, vonflare. I think my voting habits are nothing like what they were at the start of the game.

[Postie]

I am a pseudologist. Meaning I can target someone and have them modkilled if they lied

D2 was postie. Don't remember anything incriminating there

Today was vonflare. His claim is that he must always lie. But he hasn't been modkilled. So he didn't lie by saying he is a liar?

What do you mean by not remembering anything incriminating on me?

[Postie]

No, that's not how this works. If I say I find a lot of quick jokey votes in RVS scummy, my argument isn't voided by you saying "yeah but it was RVS". You have to convince me that vote hopping around so much is not scummy.

Vote hopping in RVS isn't scummy because the votes

don't mean anything

.

But you also dodged my question in 74 by saying you think the Council could be scum, and that doesn't sound like what you're saying here.

I was answering your question in an overtly vague manner because I had no idea what lynching The Counsel would do. I did not suspect The Counsel was scum, and if you take my response in the context of my other posts at the time, you should have no reason to read that comment 100% seriously.

His role wasn't made up though. He flipped compulsive hammerer, like I predicted he would, because there wasn't really a reason for him to make that up.

I went and checked his flip again and shit, you're right. Okay, fair.
I hold it was a reasonable reason to suspect him though, and out of curiosity, why did you think there wasn't a reason for him to make that up?

Check this out:
In Newbie 1649 I did the exact same thing, starting off D2 with a naked vote on my scumread. My scumread, YurikoJasmine, proceeded to throw up some AtE, declared a sudden unexplained scumread on me, and ultimately got lynched that day.

I didn't notice this during the game, but her scumbuddy eventi, also tried to grill me for that naked vote. So I think it's an effective scumhunting tool and I don't really care that you don't like it, because it does generate alignment-indicative content and you're behaving very similarly to scum!YurikoJasmine in that game.

Okay, if you've done this is the past and gotten favorable results, then I can't really fault you for it. I still hate your case on me though so my vote stays for now. I might switch to Flubber after a re-read though if I can make sense of the points against him.

[Postie]

The main thing I'm trying to highlight is: why are you making meaningless votes? RVS votes get the game started, but I don't see any town reason to make three different ones whereas I can think of several scum reasons to do so.

Explain to me why exactly vote hopping

in RVS

would be something that would help scum, and be more likely to come from scum.

And your vote on the Counsel stayed there for two days, between posts 70 and 169, so:

1. either you kept a meaningless vote around until you started scumreading DongEmpire - which is null at best. I tend to votepark too, but I never votepark on a mechanic.
2. or your vote wasn't meaningless.

I've been over this - I wanted to know what lynching The Counsel would do, so no, my vote wasn't meaningless. When I started scumreading dong I figured I might as well vote him because a lynch on The Counsel wasn't really taking off.

[Postie]

Sorry for being captain buzzkill I guess, but you're excusing yourself too much by saying you were just joking. The general thesis of my case against you is that I haven't seen you

be town

by scumhunting and doing productive pro-town things. Saying that I shouldn't be reading your comments seriously feels to me like it just furthers my point.

Yes how could anyone ever come to the conclusion that something I posted shortly after

Dongempire is now freaking out why that last slither of info was leaked in a votecount in his private topic.

Okay, if "that last slither of info" means the "info" in the vote count before that one, then that means Dongempire's private topic is this thread.

What if everything is a lie and we are all scum

Postie ima shoot you

Yes pls.

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Tell my children I love them.

could be a joke. What a completely absurd conclusion.

[Postie]

I hold it was a reasonable reason to suspect him though, and out of curiosity, why did you think there wasn't a reason for him to make that up?

Because neither town nor scum gains by lying and faking being a 'compulsive hammerer'.

town!BNL - town should never lie, and compulsive hammerer has no pro-town utility, I cannot think of a single reason why town would lie about having such a role

scum!BNL - such a claim will draw a lot of attention (as shown), and compulsive hammerer has no pro-town utility and absolutely should not be allowed to live until LYLO, so he'd probably ultimately be killed for the claim which would go against scum win-con.

So regardless of BNL's alignment, it was likely that the claim was true, which is what I was getting at in 303 although I didn't really emphasize it as much as I could have.

I call bullshit. I think it's highly unlikely you'd insist there was nothing suspicious about the similarities between BNL's made-up role and the role he claimed in this game if you were town - maybe you wouldn't be totally convinced, sure, but the fact you said

like I predicted he would,

makes me think you were a lot more certain in your conclusion than you should have been.
That only makes sense to me coming from someone who is already sold on BNL being town - i.e. scum.

[Postie]

Is your vote on me solely because you don't like my case on you?

I'll break it down for you:

- Trying to push for my lynch using analysis

of RVS

is scummy af
- Trying to push for my lynch using posts that clearly need to be read in context, out on context, and getting nit-picky with semantics is scummy af
- Your certainty in BNL not having made up his role reads like a scumslip

@Everyone

- Can we lynch GL for the reasons above, please and thank you.

[Postie]

I just don't see scum!Flubber doing something so utterly fucking insane unless it was made necessary in some other manner.

[Postie]

Ugh, I don't have time to respond to GL's stuff properly right now, but I should probably mention right now that I have a night action that basically allows me to confirm Flubber as town or scum, so I would prefer if we hold off on a Flubber lynch. Ty.

[Postie]

I can't guarantee it, but most likely.

[Postie]

Also, I actually think Flubber's role isn't all that unbelievable because it has a massive downside: if he targets town and they lie in any way, KABOOM - think shos' cop claim, fakehammers, etc.

[Postie]

I may as well also admit now that part of the reason I've been pushing for a lynch on GL is because of my role, so can we finally lynch this guy?

My role comes with a mildly annoying negative utility if I use it though, so that's why I didn't on day 1.

[Postie]

This is so transparently fake from my point of view, if Postie's role told her that I was scum then she would have pushed me immediately instead of only starting after I built a case on her. She thinks she can claim a PR and get me mislynched since she's probably the lynch if we aren't going for Flubber.

Notice how in 512 she says she might switch to Flubber. No way she would do that if she genuinely thought I was scum.

Or maybe I didn't want to make it blatantly obvious that I had this kind of role?

I'm about 90% sure GL is scum, shos.

[Postie]

That seems fair.

[Postie]

Postie's excuse of 'I didn't want to make it obvious I had this role' is complete bs because she's making it obvious now anyway. So why would she keep it secret for half the day then suddenly pull this claim out of nowhere later in the day, after not even pushing me until I was pushing her?

Because it looked like Flubber was going to get lynched, and I thought that was a bad idea if I could just confirm his alignment tonight.

Dong, confirmed town, voiced suspicions of her and he was killed.

Ew. Awful reasoning is awful.

[Postie]

A lot of things in my ISO would make more sense in the context of my role, but claiming it would complicate things during the night and just generally make life harder for town. I will full-claim tomorrow though, and doing so should make it pretty clear that I'm telling the truth.

[Postie]

As in, people trusting PR results in this game.

Oh, right. Considering the negative utility of my role, I doubt wgeurts is also lying to me, but I can't be sure of course.

[Postie]

Like listen to that shit^. No. I demand that if you're trying to use your role as justification for lynching me, you full claim right now, because you're full of shit

What's the advantage of me claiming now rather than at the start of day 4?

[Postie]

Ugh. I have no clue what to make of this.

[Postie]

"Flubber is scum" is an opinion though. Do we know if it works for opinions?

[Postie]

its not an opinion, it is a statement that is either true or false

Yes, but he said you'd be killed for lying. Lies are intentionally false statements, and you weren't saying something intentionally false.

[Postie]

Okay, but what are the chances of BOTH of us being lied to? Or if I'm scum, what are the chances of me happening to fake an incriminating result on the person you have an incriminating result on? I mean it's possible but I hardly see it as likely.

[Postie]

Except now that you've said that they might kill you to frame Davsto. :/

[Postie]

and I doubt they will kill me if Davsto is town

Fair point.

[Postie]

If they knew Flubber wasn't on their team, I think he would pose a far bigger threat.

[Postie]

1 hour.

Come

on

guys.

[Postie]

Postie still hasn't given me her reads on shos or Davsto

Oh, sorry. I think they're both town.

[Postie]

Or GuiltyLion is just continuing he pretense since we won't actually get a flip from him?

[Postie]

*the

[Postie]

Lmao @ GuiltyLion's self-janitor ability not working the way he hoped it would.

Alright, I will claim.
But first - Davsto, you should have gotten a results PM last night.

[Postie]

Okie-dokie.

In that case, Flubber was lying about his role. I'm Amnesiac Lie Detector, and lie detected Flub's 517 last night.

Night 1, I lie detected dong's 7, and send the results to dong, mistakenly thinking the recipient would also be told which post the results go with. My thinking was that if dong was scum, he would know he lied about being town in that post and therefore not mention the results, so I was hoping that could perhaps hint at his alignment. 356 was a subtle attempt at weaseling that information out of him, but I guess he must have though as little of the PM as Davsto did.
Night 2 I lie detected GuiltyLion's 398.

Let's make my job easy for me tonight - I want everyone to make a post like this please:

[Postie]

I am aligned with the town.

[Postie]

@vonflare

- I didn't get a "I'm town-aligned" post from you.

[Postie]

Fine with me also.

[Postie]

If Flubber had said something like "I claimed that role to try and draw the nightkill onto myself" (which I suspected could have been the case) I might have considered the possibility of him being town.
But nope. Nope nope nope.
Completely fine with this lynch.

My role is just what I claimed - there's nothing else to it. The stuff on day 3 about there being a negative utility or whatever was to throw scum off so the way my role worked was harder to guess and they wouldn't interfere with the results.

[Postie]

Flubbernugget (4):

Shos, lilith2013, vonflare, Davsto

[L-1!]

With 7 votes, 4 to lynch

?????

Ugh whatever

VOTE: Flubbernugget

[Postie]

Maybe he has a role modifier that works like the opposite of Hated.

[Postie]

lie-detector's results are all inverted

Wait, what? I guess I got pretty lucky then.

[Postie]

The hilarious thing is that if I'd gotten sane results I wouldn't have been able to get scum lynched.