Micro 549: Everything Is A Lie 2 (Game Over)

[GuiltyLion]

Last game the 'IC' was a jester but I doubt it's the same trick here. So it looks like we got some wine already

VOTE: shos, can't trust him after doublewinning the first game.

[GuiltyLion]

Postie do you think the Counsel is scum?

[GuiltyLion]

So much useless fluff in the thread.

Leaning town on vonflare and flubber.

VOTE: BulletNLynchproof
Both he and Postie have looked really uncomfortable trying to find someone to vote, and I'm not a fan of the Lilith hop on/off, both times with a claim that he read the game.

[GuiltyLion]

I actually think BNL's over-eagerness looks pretty town.

Over-eagerness can come from town or scum, I generally read it more as being excited to play the game. What I don't like is the changing of his mind with little input from others. If you don't commit to stances, and set a precedent of waffling around, then you can go anywhere with your play. At best, it makes him town that's hard to read. At worst, it makes him scum intentionally setting himself up to move in multiple directions or fence-sit.

I also didn't like the Lilith vote in general, it was an easy place to votepark since it was based on gaming the setup and theory spec. I think abandoning it so quickly shows that he felt uncomfortable with it as soon as he made it, which to me is like, why make the vote to begin with?

What in flubber's 4 posts made you lean town on him?

It's admittedly more of a gut read, but I liked him going against the grain of the general flow of conversation in 90 and 120. Personally, I think focusing attention on the Counsel or mechanics/flavor of the game is a distraction, unless you're making a legitimately productive attempt to crack it. It'd be easy for scum to vote a non-player or use the focus on the flavor as a way to hide from genuine pushing and scumhunting. Scum talking about the mechanics has an excuse both to not-scumhunt and not-be-scumhunted.

shos your push feels like a bit of a reach. How sure are you that town!vonflare would not react the exact same way?

[GuiltyLion]

I currently do not want to lynch Lilith, Shos, or Flubber.

BulletNLynchproof, if he's actually town, has to die before LYLO or else he is a risk to lose the game.

The rest of this game is pretty yuck right now, and I forgot deadlines are shorter in this one, we need to consolidate soon.

Dong why is your vote on Lilith?

[GuiltyLion]

Shos do you have scumreads outside of vonflare?

[GuiltyLion]

Whoa I have been posting in this game far less than I thought I have, sorry about that, everyone. I think RVS dragging on for 5-6 pages killed my initial interest but it's my fault I haven't been making a better effort to get involved since then.

I don't like BNL's readslist - too many "null lean scum" and the townreads are poorly justified. Dong is town because wgeurts is saying he's scum? Davsto is town because he has a post restriction and BNL "likes most of his content"? He's leaning on mechanics of the game too much instead of looking at the motivation behind what people are doing.

However, he's right that the votes on him due to his claim are troubling. For example:

Is it a weak point though? Is it really? Are you kidding me?

Yes it is a weak point - do you believe such a role could exist in this game? If there is a compulsive hammerer role, is it more likely to be a town role or a scum role?

The only reasons to vote him

because

of the claim are:
1. Compulsive hammerer is a role that only scum can have
2. You have evidence that his claim is a lie

I view the claim as intrinsically a null thing - compulsive hammerer could be a town or scum role, and I doubt he would lie about it. There are better reasons to be scumreading BNL.

[GuiltyLion]

Dong has moved into the "people-I-don't-want-to-lynch-today" bloc. I still want shos to poke around outside of his vonflare tunnel, but I'm currently okay with a lynch of either Postie or BNL today - however, it would help a lot for Shiro/Flubber to give some thoughts on the current gamestate before that happens.

[GuiltyLion]

So you think the claim is a lie because he thought of it himself earlier? I guess I can see that point... but why would scum!BNL intentionally fakeclaim a role that he said would be a terrible role to have?

The reaction point is good reasoning, I hadn't considered that.

[GuiltyLion]

BNL, if he is revived as town, should tell us who his lynch target was. Trying to ISO him my best guess would have been Postie but it wasn't very clear or obvious.

I'm not 100% sure that it would be alignment-indicative but it may be useful in the later game and I see no reason why he wouldn't tell us.

Also, fully agree with 333, I was townreading Dong for that post. I wish he'd get his head more in the game though, it's so hard for me to read trolly-fluff and I have mislynched Dong before.

[GuiltyLion]

IMO, speculating on no-NK is usually scum-motivated because:

a) scum feel awkward and need to distance themselves from the idea of the kill or why it failed
b) we don't want any town protective roles to out themselves, and generating discussion about it is an easy way for them to possibly slip

that said I don't think this instance of it in particular was scummy but it was probably starting to toe the line.

Shos - how confident are you in your result? Any chance the mod would lie about it?

[GuiltyLion]

BNL - who was your lynch target?

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not gonna believe in any dayvig shots until I see the mod do a flip.

[GuiltyLion]

omg Flubber did you seriously just shoot me right now? Wtf

(btw did you see Town of Helen? We won!)

Also vonflare if you are actually vig then I think this is a decent shot, but I'm a little worried Shiro's flip won't tell us too much. I would have waited for a few more associative tells.

I have a half reason to think Shiro could be town but it'll have to wait until the next mod post.

[GuiltyLion]

It's fine my reason is solely based on mechanics, it's not very strong or indicative in this game. Don't worry about it, I'm only mentioning it because it will make sense if Shiro actually does flip.

[GuiltyLion]

No, I definitely had that thought too. I literally have one mechanics-based reason to think she could be town, that's it. The main point of me even bringing this up is so it'll be confirmed on a Shiro flip, that's all.

[GuiltyLion]

Yeah so I was the Mason buddy. I can paraphrase our conversation in the private lodge if anyone wants but it probably won't be helpful. It was mostly us being reserved/doing the dance of trying to read the other one. She initially came off looking town with it but then lurked it out at the same time she was lurking in game, and didn't really respond to me poking her for reads. There wasn't any indicative stuff on other players there, plus with the traitor flip, if she had given any reads they wouldn't have been telling anyway.

The mechanics-based reason I hinted at was because I thought wgeurts might WIFOM both of us by making us town and "guaranteeing" the other to be town when last game both masons were scum, but I guess not.

This is also partially why I pushed on BNL D1, I thought his line about town Masons needing to claim in 114 was scum rolefishing, especially if Shiro and I were actually both town. Looks like he was right about there being a scum mason, though.

[GuiltyLion]

her final words were, "it appears I might have been dayvigged"

[GuiltyLion]

412 is just so

You're claiming that several things in your flip were a lie, such as your win-con and that it omits your requirement to fakeclaim a negative utility ability in order to gain that negative utility.

I might believe that, but then in the same breath you go and treat Shiro's flip as sacrosanct and use it to try to implicate me based entirely on the mechanics of the past game. There's literally no reason to assume anything in the past game applies to this one, and I can tell you straight up that having two scum masons does not. Why would you even assume something like "confirmed scum" in a game where you're asserting that the very win-con listed in your first flip was a lie?

Next, you're also claiming lynchproof and compulsive hammerer. Fortunately, I know a good way to test both of those claims.
VOTE: BulletNLynchproof

My guess is you're still third party and you know I'm gonna see right through that and get you lynched again, so you're trying to take me out as early as possible. I'm legitimately confused as to why you didn't just claim who your lynch target was, whether you truly had one or not. This is like the most suspicious thing you could do, and really only makes sense if your goal is still to get someone else lynched.

Also I am absolutely not lynching a claimed cop who gave us a scum. I agree that the bit about how he caught a godfather is confusing and could use explanation, but it'd be foolish to lynch him today. Again - if your flip was really a lie, then Shiro's godfather ability in her flip could easily have also been a lie. If shos survives for too long and doesn't give us any more useful results, we can take a harder look at him later.

[GuiltyLion]

Was Dong the cop?

[GuiltyLion]

wait lol stupid question, what I mean to ask is did he tell you his result on Shiro

[GuiltyLion]

yeah, just wanted to confirm that so there's no ambiguity.

VOTE: Postie

[GuiltyLion]

just getting my vote down on a scumread while I reread up and wait for everyone else to get here

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not totally on board with a massclaim because my role is basically the mod's WIFOM on toast.

So much this

I think the names are all some variation of "liar." I'm the Ruffian.

and this looks to be true as well

I'm the Fabulist.

I know I haven't explained my scumread on Postie yet, that was intentional as I wanted to see her reaction as well as the reactions of others. Looks like people didn't like that, apparently . I'm gonna be busy at work but I'll hopefully have time to write up my points against her tonight, I did mention a couple on D1 and I'm not especially a fan of how quickly she tried to PoE her way to two suspects, seems too convenient. Shos even explicitly said he's not a cop, that was his mason Dong.

I'm a bit skeptical of taking 'shos and vonflare are conftown' as a given, they could easily be a scum faction. shos' 180 degree turn around would make sense if he were another traitor and vonflare attacked him, which could also explain no NKs on N1. Just throwing these ideas out there, I'm still thinking on them, but that's basically why I think Postie's PoE line of thinking is altogether too easy on D2 and not really a town thought process.

[GuiltyLion]

EBWOP - sorry, it's D3 not D2, lack of NKs on D1 plus the speed of D2 made them blend together in my head

[GuiltyLion]

Alright, finally here for all those things I promised:

Yeah, but why are you scumreading me?

I have a number of reasons for scumreading Postie:

- Awkward voting habits to start the game: Postie RVS voted Dong in 16, but then immediately made a second (RVS?) vote on vonflare in 26, then switched to the Counsel in 70. This all happened in the span of 40ish minutes RL time, so it's all pretty much fun and games at that point, but I tend to scumread people who votehop a lot for silly reasons because it reads to me like they don't want to commit to anything that could get them negative attention (why is your vote on [x]? = 'oh I just left it there, haven't really found a better target yet', etc).

Plus, I don't like people voting the Counsel, which seems to be just a distracting mechanic that can be used by scum to avoid legitimate productive scumhunting. My question to Postie in 74 was meant to kind of push this point - lynching the Counsel doesn't tell us anything and most likely would not be a scumlynch, in my view - and she kinda dodged the point of my question by saying she thinks the Counsel might be scum.

- I didn't like her vote on Dong in 169. Part of this is my past experience with Dong, he's a very trolly and difficult to read player, but that makes him easily mislynchable and this vote seemed to me like a convenient way to take an argument that is fundamentally non-alignment-indicative ("did vonflare express an opinion on Dong or not") and use it to start a push.

- BNL vote based on mechanics: So I had a back and forth with Postie in the thread about this, but I thought it was a bit of a reach to vote BNL because he claimed a role that he had thought of before. At the time I didn't mind it too much because I had my own scumread on BNL and I wanted to see his lynch through, but "your roleclaim is a lie" was a convenient opinion to take and I definitely would have scumread her a hell of a lot harder for sheeping me on that wagon if BNL had flipped town. Dong basically shares the same opinion in 276.

- 356 reads to me like one of those classic softball questions to look town while not really doing anything substantive. "Any leads?" is one of my classic major scumtells in Town of Salem.

- 419 is far too waffley, she's basically saying she's scumreading BNL but she doesn't want to vote him because she's also scumreading Dong. The worst thing to do there is to vote neither!

- Lack of 'town paranoia': I kind of made this point already earlier today, but it didn't strike me as a town mindset in how quick Postie was to assume shos/vonflare are town, couple them with her townreads, and narrow her lynchpool down to two people immediately. It's an easy way to excuse tunneling on one or two players (Flubber feels especially like lynchbait as he has been hardcore lurking), and I think town!Postie would be a lot more open towards questioning everyone involved today and letting some pushes/threads of conversation play out. I didn't like how she basically declared that she's on board for my lynch in 460 when I've barely done anything yet today, either.

[GuiltyLion]

What kind of reaction were you looking for?

I'm not sure, exactly, it was more of a 'let's do this and see what happens' type of deal. I like starting the day off with naked votes, I can see if people push back on me for it, I can see if people sheep me and try to evaluate their reasons for also voting the person, I can see if the person I vote has a reaction or tries to completely ignore it, etc. I wasn't really looking for something specific, I just wanted to generate some content.

@shos - not sure I buy this Flubber push from you, I only have one game of experience with Flubber but this doesn't seem very different from his town game in that last one. His vote on dong was kinda weak but I liked his Davsto point in 376 and 450 is a question I thought more people should be asking.

[GuiltyLion]

We were essentially in RVS, making this a somewhat moot point.

No, that's not how this works. If I say I find a lot of quick jokey votes in RVS scummy, my argument isn't voided by you saying "yeah but it was RVS". You have to convince me that vote hopping around so much is not scummy.

I was intrigued by the fact that the Counsel was votable and wanted them lynched out out curiosity.

So we can agree to disagree on whether voting the Counsel comes from a town mindset and whether that's productive. But you also dodged my question in 74 by saying you think the Council could be scum, and that doesn't sound like what you're saying here.

Are you forgetting that I was

100% correct about BNL making up his role

? Either I made an extremely lucky guess or I, you know,

had a well founded point

. Using this as a point against me is all kinds of ew.

His role wasn't made up though. He flipped compulsive hammerer, like I predicted he would, because there wasn't really a reason for him to make that up.

All the made up crap all came on D2 when he was revived as a jester.

Secondly, you may not have done much today, but I really didn't like your "reaction test", which was partly what pushed me to vote you. And I don't like your explanation of it much either.

Check this out:
In Newbie 1649 I did the exact same thing, starting off D2 with a naked vote on my scumread. My scumread, YurikoJasmine, proceeded to throw up some AtE, declared a sudden unexplained scumread on me, and ultimately got lynched that day.

I didn't notice this during the game, but her scumbuddy eventi, also tried to grill me for that naked vote. So I think it's an effective scumhunting tool and I don't really care that you don't like it, because it does generate alignment-indicative content and you're behaving very similarly to scum!YurikoJasmine in that game.

[GuiltyLion]

Vote hopping in RVS isn't scummy because the votes

don't mean anything

.

We're still talking past eachother. The main thing I'm trying to highlight is: why are you making meaningless votes? RVS votes get the game started, but I don't see any town reason to make three different ones whereas I can think of several scum reasons to do so. And your vote on the Counsel stayed there for two days, between posts 70 and 169, so:

1. either you kept a meaningless vote around until you started scumreading DongEmpire - which is null at best. I tend to votepark too, but I never votepark on a mechanic.
2. or your vote wasn't meaningless.

But this is somewhat irrelevant, because making meaningless votes is exactly the point of that part of my case against you, town should be striving to make meaningful votes as soon as possible.

I was answering your question in an overtly vague manner because I had no idea what lynching The Counsel would do. I did not suspect The Counsel was scum, and if you take my response in the context of my other posts at the time, you should have no reason to read that comment 100% seriously.

Sorry for being captain buzzkill I guess, but you're excusing yourself too much by saying you were just joking. The general thesis of my case against you is that I haven't seen you

be town

by scumhunting and doing productive pro-town things. Saying that I shouldn't be reading your comments seriously feels to me like it just furthers my point.

I hold it was a reasonable reason to suspect him though, and out of curiosity, why did you think there wasn't a reason for him to make that up?

Because neither town nor scum gains by lying and faking being a 'compulsive hammerer'.

town!BNL - town should never lie, and compulsive hammerer has no pro-town utility, I cannot think of a single reason why town would lie about having such a role

scum!BNL - such a claim will draw a lot of attention (as shown), and compulsive hammerer has no pro-town utility and absolutely should not be allowed to live until LYLO, so he'd probably ultimately be killed for the claim which would go against scum win-con.

So regardless of BNL's alignment, it was likely that the claim was true, which is what I was getting at in 303 although I didn't really emphasize it as much as I could have.

Okay, if you've done this is the past and gotten favorable results, then I can't really fault you for it. I still hate your case on me though so my vote stays for now. I might switch to Flubber after a re-read though if I can make sense of the points against him.

Is your vote on me solely because you don't like my case on you?

---

This Flubbernugget claim is kind of wack, I've been thinking about it since yesterday. I'm not sure I understand it exactly - so

@Flubber

when exactly can you use the Lie-Detect? And when you use it, is it for all of their posts for the day that you used it or the previous day? Why did you choose Postie on D2?

[GuiltyLion]

Also Flubber are you seriously saying vonflare will be mod killed if he's scum and says he's town? That seems impossibly broken.

[GuiltyLion]

^genius, you should do this for everyone in between modposts

[GuiltyLion]

Are you getting scared that I'm onto you, Postie?

Explain to me why exactly vote hopping

in RVS

would be something that would help scum, and be more likely to come from scum.

Scum like joke votes because they have no meaning attached to them and are easy to move or keep as needed. They're completely flexible. If you get heat for your vote, you can move it, because 'hey, it was just RVS!'. If you get a wagon going on town, you can invent-scum motivation retroactively for something they post in response to being pressured, and keep your vote as it stands. Scum don't want to be caught inventing reasons for a vote, they want their votes to blend in and not make waves. Joke votes are the easiest way to do that.

Like I said, absolutely null at best. There's no town motivation to making a bunch of joke votes. It accomplishes nothing. Combine that with you not really making any solid pushes/scumhunting since then, and it's absolutely reason to think you could be scum.

Further, I'm now getting the sense that you're blowing up this argument over how you didn't make any useful votes early game, which is probably the weakest part of my case in 497, as a cover for all the other points I have against you. You just hedge whenever you're forced to acknowledge that I make a good point, and you go back to just shouting about how it was RVS for the very first premise of my case on you, which was clearly labeled "Awkward voting habits to start the game".

I'll break it down for you:

- Trying to push for my lynch using analysis

of RVS

is scummy af
- Trying to push for my lynch using posts that clearly need to be read in context, out on context, and getting nit-picky with semantics is scummy af
- Your certainty in BNL not having made up his role reads like a scumslip

This is such a misrep of what I'm actually saying. I've never said you weren't making RVS votes or weren't joking - my point is you've done nothing town or useful

in addition

to that, so it all reads like someone trying to blend in and post for the sake of posting, rather than scumhunting.

You're also inventing this scumslip argument which cannot even be a scumslip. Look at 303 again. I said:

I view the claim as intrinsically a null thing -

compulsive hammerer could be a town or scum role, and I doubt he would lie about it

. There are better reasons to be scumreading BNL.

The fact that I was later proven

completely right

- he did not lie about the role - just shows that I was taking the time to think about motives and why on earth he would say that it if weren't true. I never made any claim with respect to his alignment on the basis of his claim - even going so far as to explicitly say the claim itself was null. You're trying to accuse me of "scumslipping" because I wasn't wrong about his motives for claiming compulsive hammerer like you were? That's rich. That's why your vote on BNL reads like invented reasons to sheep a wagon to begin with!

I haven't seen you do any real scumhunting Postie, and now you're just attacking the only person calling you out for it, hoping you can lynch me to shut me up. That's what scum does.

[GuiltyLion]

Lilith, who/what was that post for? Did you mean to post it in this thread?

Postie can I get your reads on Davsto and shos?

(Happy Thanksgiving everyone!)

[GuiltyLion]

This is so transparently fake from my point of view, if Postie's role told her that I was scum then she would have pushed me immediately instead of only starting after I built a case on her. She thinks she can claim a PR and get me mislynched since she's probably the lynch if we aren't going for Flubber.

Notice how in 512 she says she might switch to Flubber. No way she would do that if she genuinely thought I was scum.

[GuiltyLion]

Are you guys seriously going to believe that Dong, shos, and Postie are all town and all have roles that can confirm people's alignments in this game? That's absurd, and it's incredibly obvious to me that Postie is just making shit up to see my lynch through.

Postie's excuse of 'I didn't want to make it obvious I had this role' is complete bs because she's making it obvious now anyway. So why would she keep it secret for half the day then suddenly pull this claim out of nowhere later in the day, after not even pushing me until I was pushing her?

Use your brains, people.

Anyway, I'll claim but it won't really help the situation as I have an incredibly bastard WIFOM role. I am a self-janitor innocent child town mason. I've already claimed the town mason aspect, but didn't bother with the other two because they have no pro-town utility in this game and are a complete distraction.

Self-Janitor means that when I am lynched/killed, my flip will give no information. My alignment and win-con will not show to anyone.

Innocent child means I can pm wgeurts at any point and the next mod post will say that I am aligned with the town. It's true, but I recognize in this game with this context that it won't really prove anything other than I'm not lying about this ability. I went ahead and PMed wgeurts so that you can see I'm not lying.

Please reread Postie's ISO. It's incredibly obvious that she isn't scumhunting, and she invented this bs because I'm a significant threat to her. Dong, confirmed town, voiced suspicions of her and he was killed. There's no reason to believe anything she says and I won't be moving my vote today.

[GuiltyLion]

Like this is just infuriating to me because I can see that Postie's scum and with her claiming to have a role that pins me as scum it's just confirmed that she's lying from my perspective, but you all are believing her for no legitimate reason other than a weak, atrociously poorly timed soft at her role. And my flip won't even vindicate me because I have this bastard janitor role.

I think all of you should reread my ISO in contrast with Postie's.

[GuiltyLion]

Like listen to that shit^. No. I demand that if you're trying to use your role as justification for lynching me, you full claim right now, because you're full of shit

[GuiltyLion]

EBWOP - my post was for Postie, not Davsto

[GuiltyLion]

It will prevent you from rallying a lynch on town, liar

[GuiltyLion]

Are you serious Lilith? You're accepting Postie's trainwreck of a fakeclaim at face value? Do you have any actually alignment indicative reason to be voting me?

Are you town reading Postie? If so, can you explain why? Like pointing me towards things she's done that make her town?

[GuiltyLion]

Honestly I can't do anything other than let my play speak for itself and hope to god that you all lynch Postie at some point because my flip won't tell you anything and if you all are gonna just let her lie and make shit up then there's nothing I can do other than repeat myself that I fucking know she's lying if she says she knows that I'm scum.

[GuiltyLion]

So Lilith you're voting me because you don't think there are two ICs? Aka mechanics in a bastard game? That's either scum or stupid, you're just as confirmed as I am.

If you're also IC, then I think wgeurts probably would do it

for this exact reason

. My role is stupid as shit as it's entirely designed to make me a mislynch, which is why I've avoided talking about my role as long as possible.

You all are just gonna listen to mechanics when I have repeatedly said doing so is a terrible idea in a game specifically designed to be as bastard as possible.

[GuiltyLion]

I was masons with Shiro, this was established before and after her flip.

[GuiltyLion]

No one is reading the damn game

[GuiltyLion]

Sorry if you all don't believe my claim but my role is my role and there's nothing I can do it to change it

[GuiltyLion]

So you got a pm that says "GL is scum"

In a game called "everything is a lie"

and you believe that I'm scum.

This town isn't doing any scumhunting, everyone's just making shit up, believing things that wgeurts says, and completely ignoring motive or wagons. It's frustrating and stupid and I feel like my role exists solely for scum to use to get me lynched. I'll post my final reads when I hit L-1, til then there's no point to me posting because everyone just ignores what I say and makes up terrible mechanic based reasons to accuse/vote people.

Can we talk again about how Postie saying "I know GL is scum but I'm not gonna claim cause it will harm town" is the scummiest shit I've ever seen, especially when she gave no push on me until halfway through D3 when it was clear I was pushing her and she couldn't respond to any of my points.

[GuiltyLion]

And if you wanna talk about shitty mechanics based reasoning, can we talk again about how dong was a cop and both Postie and Shos claim they can identify people's alignments.

[GuiltyLion]

I am not a role forger. If I were a role forger I'd claim doc or cop or JOAT or something and give myself a ton of utility. Town role forger would be broken as fuck.

Either Lilith is lying about her pm or the pm itself was a lie.

[GuiltyLion]

Anyway final reads since it's clear I'm the scum designated lynch for today

Davsto - town as hell, do not lynch
vonflare - has done nothing but look town to me
Flubber - flubber feels like lynchbait today and if you read his completed games he always plays like this, I think he's probably town
Lilith - I'm reading Lilith as VI town, she makes insightful questions and points but her claim about my role is wrong, I think she just got a false PM and believed it
shos - I think he's coasting scum. All he does is say someone 'sucks ass' and vote them. And his push on Lilith was terrible IMO, then he's down to vote me when she does? Inconsistent and scummy
Postie - obvscum. When I flip janitored, you have to believe me that I'm town and lynch her ASAP. This shit about softing a role but not claiming it just tops the charts for scumminess

Anyway I've had a few beers so happy thanksgiving all, if by some miracle I'm not lynched then I'll be back tonight I guess

[GuiltyLion]

In my opinion if you lynch me you should have flubber lie detect postie tomorrow and make her full claim. This will confirm both of them one way or the other.

[GuiltyLion]

@shows - I already answered that, the role pm said we were both "guaranteed" [in quotes] to be town.

Lilith - how do you know how many scum there are? I think there's only one faction, there's only been one NK per night. I have no idea where your guess of 1-1 came from, you need to explain

[GuiltyLion]

EBWOP - sorry, should've read more closely - "your guess of 1-2", not "1-1"

[GuiltyLion]

Also look at shos now trying to use set up spec based on last game to implicate me, because literally nothing I've done is scum motivated so you all have to make up mechanics reasons to keep your votes explained.

[GuiltyLion]

Hmph that's a good point. I've just been trying to look at play, not relational association to Shiro. I don't assume anything about set up, I just look for people who look scummy.

I mean if Dong/shos are masons and Dong says he's cop with a guilty on Shiro, shos is basically forced to do what he did to look like town. Plus it's a great move for towncred, bussing is not that bad in a Micro if there is more than two scum.

I mainly just think he's scum because it's easy to 'clear' a townie as town and give up a scum when your mason partner gives them to you, and then ride the towncred the rest of the game. He doesn't seem to care about honestly evaluating people's alignments, he just posts some lulzy one-liner and votes them. That's why I think he could be scum.

Part of it might honestly just be reflexive 'he's scum for pushing me', I was inebriated when I posted that readslist, and I tend to fall into that fallacy often. I'm terrible with TvT tunnels

[GuiltyLion]

Regardless, theres more time to look at shos tomorrow, Postie is already confscum in my view.

[GuiltyLion]

I mean what am I supposed to say to that except I am not Alien? That's the beautiful thing about using set up spec and owning the information (shos role pm, shos role), you can make a post like that and I have no functional defense because the charges are nothing that I've done, they're just things you're asserting to be true and your ideas about the mechanics of the game.

[GuiltyLion]

Having two town-scum mason pairs makes more sense to me, a cop-cop mason pair is OP as hell

[GuiltyLion]

Also let's think about this - why the hell did the actual cop, Dong, die, when you claimed cop and you were the only one who knew that he was cop?

[GuiltyLion]

In fact, I could use the same kind of argument and say that you may have just scumslipped. What if Dong's pm said he was with "guaranteed" town?

[GuiltyLion]

I already gave my final reads. It's like you don't read what I'm saying because you see a lynch and you're taking it.

Because he didn't tell you he was a cop before the result, obviously. What I'm suggesting here is maybe you found out he was cop and killed him cause you were afraid he might check you next.

My point is we have disputing claims here. My mason role pm says we are "guaranteed" town. You say yours does not. Therefore, its just as valid to assume town mason pms have the quotes whereas scum do not, as it is to say scum mason pms have the quote whereas town do not. We will never agree on this, it's up to the rest of town to assess and make a judgment.

It's cool to see that you won't reason with me though and just keep pushing anything you can that makes me scum.

[GuiltyLion]

Actually wait I'm a moron lemme check dong's pm

[GuiltyLion]

Well, his doesn't have quotes. so I guess you're town then, and mine was only because Shiro was scum. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[GuiltyLion]

Postie still hasn't given me her reads on shos or Davsto

[GuiltyLion]

welp, I was town

My lynch is pretty transparently scum driven. I would take a closer look at lilith after she lied about my role. And Postie is still a lying liar who lies, PLEASE lynch her I'm telling you

good luck town!

[GuiltyLion]

I'll pre-in to the future large!

what a twisttt

Also, sorry to anyone if I felt too aggressive, this is actually my first (completed) game as scum! I thought town played really well this game, I kept trying to make people doubt their roles or results but people didn't buy that and generally stuck with the stuff that was true.

Looks like there were some cool lies that didn't get used, it would have been fun if we had lynched lilith much earlier in the game with BNL alive.

thanks for modding wgeurts, it was a ton of fun.

[GuiltyLion]

I think I spent more effort trying to make sure Shiro was townreading me than anyone else

[GuiltyLion]

AGH THAT TOTALLY EXPLAINS WHY POSTIE THOUGHT I WAS SCUM, YOU SAID 398 WAS A LIE WHEN I PURPOSEFULLY MADE THAT POST AS TRUE AS POSSIBLE

I was wondering in the dead thread what that post turned up as, cause it was true imo

[GuiltyLion]

in hindsight the IC thing was pretty dumb, everyone realized it was super scummy from the start

but I think lilith knowing I was role forger was what really sunk me. I was mostly trying to make a bunch of WIFOM to keep my partner alive cause I figured I was going down