Micro 575: Twin Peak Neighborhoods Game Over
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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In post 15, RadiantCowbells wrote:Alright, we're going to lynch in West Side if only because I'm a selfish ass and don't want to potentially be in a conftown pool to eat a night kill.
If you're proposing lynching from the west-side, wouldn't that necessarily mean it's more likely we'd (east-side) eat the nightkill regardless?
VOTE: RadiantCowbells
Sore from last game.-
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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Eh, come to think of it, it's probably a sound strategy. Further, even if we hit town that will even up the neighborhoods and force the scum to put more thought into their kill. Their NK choices will be more informative than usual this game (until/unless we lynch one).
UNVOTE: RadiantCowbells; VOTE: All In-
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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The most likely scenario is that we hit town regardless of which neighborhood we pick. So it will either be 4v4 or 5v3. If it's 4v4, we learn a lot from which neighborhood the scum decide to kill in. If it's 5v3, the scum kind of have to kill in the 5v3 neighborhood. This is guiding my decision most, All In.-
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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All In 61 wrote:To everyone voting me: explain why lynching in the small pool is helpful or vote someone else.
If we hit town in the larger neighborhood, then I think the scumteam's kill will be extremely helpful with scumhunting. If we hit scum in the larger neighborhood, it's all gravy anyway so I'm content.
...and I just realized you are in the small pool so I'm arguing with the wrong side here.
UNVOTE: All In; VOTE: Some Random Mafia Player
1) Two fluff posts that say absolutely nothing.
2) He was online yesterday but didn't post.
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Radiant 64 wrote:I want to lynch in small pool because FJ is in small pool and they're a freebie read.
Perhaps, but I'm not feeling them so far.
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All In 68 wrote:Scum wants to keep the pools as big as possible, to make choices harder.
Yeah, I think this is a good point. I want to make it 4v4 going into tonight if we hit town.
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Kaboose 70 wrote:It seems like we're not scumhunting, but trying to decide where to start killing.
Good point, but you're not voting anyone so...-
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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In post 104, Kahlan wrote:I honestly think it doesn't matter which side we vote from. scum is scum and town is town right? so lets just find scum and skip all this math hoo-ha.
It's best to keep this in mind, everyone. I appreciate Kahlan bringing this up because it's easy to lose perspective of our goal when we're trying to iron out the best strategy for success. Ultimately, we have to hit scum. That said, since there is scum in both neighborhoods, this debate was bound to happen, especially on D1.
I like lewarcher's first couple of posts, and I like Kahlan's posts above as well (although I disagree with her take on Radiant ... I think she's overthinking some of his posts). It's funny that lewarcher and Kahlan are basically seeing the game exactly opposite of one another if you look at the posts together and what they're arguing.
I'm still completely unimpressed with SRMP and think he's skating by on as little input as he think he can offer in an attempt to stay out of the limelight.-
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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In post 140, lewarcher82 wrote:It is a consequence of my disbelief in the possibility of relying too much on math. In case I get scumreads on someone from the bigger pool, I will give it more weight and switch.
Fair enough. This is kind of the answer I thought you would give, so it doesn't help me much in reading you. I think as scum or town you may say this, but I was looking to prod at someone that's overly focused on the numbers to see if I can find some sort of attempt at avoiding serious scumhunting, you know? All In would probably be the closest to this, but I don't think he falls in this category.
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In other news, Frozen sounds about a billion times more townie to me than Jeanne did.
In post 154, RadiantCowbells wrote:So you're saying that FA is buddying me, yet your vote is on me and you think that I'm scum.
That makes sense.
This.-
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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In post 157, RadiantCowbells wrote:Uh, if you knew Jeanne better you'd understand that she can't even look as townie as she did so far this game as scum.
Scum!jeanne can't go to the bathroom without wetting the front of her pants.
I played with her a grand total of one time and she turned in one of the worst IC performances I've ever seen. However, since she actually had a bit of a pulse this game, I saw her play as much different than it was in a game where she was confirmed town.-
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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In post 194, RadiantCowbells wrote:In post 175, RedCoyote wrote:I really don't think this needs to turn into Kahlan/ProHawk vs Frozen/Radiant.
wtf is the point of this post.
content pls redcoyote you sly motherfucker.
The point is I have no desire to lynch anyone in that group, of course. I'm not going to make 50 posts regurgitating the same stuff. I've voted, explained my vote, and continue to hold that position. No one has successfully shown me how SRMP is playing town and/or convinced me that another player is scummier than he currently is. When you inevitably get tired of slapping at Kahlan for being a new player, which is what I think you're getting lost in, I hope you'll join me in putting pressure on SRMP.
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Frozen 204 wrote:so where is everybody ?!
Super Bowl last night.
So, Frozen, can you take a step back and deconstruct this for me? You think either ProHawk is scum that Kahlan is following or that Kahlan is scum that is buddying ProHawk? This is the basis of your argument?-
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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In post 206, Frozen Angel wrote:prohawk posted a bunch of scummy posts. I made an attack on him. he started sorting out the lynches by his words. his inconsistansies about me and the fact he had no comment about my posts about his posts is the scummy thing here
I feel like ProHawk will dispute this summary. I could be tempted onto ProHawk though, I guess. I like the second part of your argument though, almost as though he was pretending you weren't there.
In post 207, Frozen Angel wrote:whats your read on Allin and Kaboose ?
I like All In for town. Kaboose has done nothing for me except for the fact that he's on the same wagon as me, so I'm biased in his favor at the moment.
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Kahlan 216 wrote:In the first one you had more of an if implied but the second post its clear you say you WANT to lynch in the small pool because FJ is in the small pool and that they are a freebie. How does that not look like you want to lynch them?
This makes sense to me. I get where Radiant's coming from, but I also get this interpretation.
I think I'm being too pacifist this game... I don't know. Usually I'm a bit more bloodthirsty. Maybe because everyone's acting so civil this game. This is a good thing!
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Kahlan 228 wrote:For the love of pete! I DIDNT vote for RC ever.. I was simply stating what I found scummy about his actions. If I thought he was actual scum at this point I would have voted for him.
So I thought reads were what you post in your post about other players? Like what you read about them or how you see them? Am I wrong?
No, you're right, and this is townie. I'll stick my neck out for you, K. I've got a pretty solid town read on you. What's hanging the game up is that no other wagon is really naturally forming. Both the ones on Radiant and SMRP are stagnating for different reasons.
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All In 230 wrote:Coyote, who's east side scum?
SMRP is my best guess. I named a couple of reasons earlier, but, to expand further, he's only posting when called out and his comments seem arbitrary and aimless. What I mean by this is that he doesn't seem to be looking for a scumhunting target so much as he's just throwing out random comments. See: 196, 122.
Lastly, he hasn't asked one question all game. That's a big red flag for me that has proven to be a fairly reliable indicator of alignment in the past. Town is naturally wanting to get clarification, figure out what other people are doing, ask 'what if' scenarios, etc (e.g. "What do you mean by post X?", "Who do you think is scum right now?", "What if X flips town?").-
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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SRMP 241 wrote:What dont you like about his posts? Why do you like what kahlan has put out?
Now you're going overboard, lol. As much as I appreciate you heeding my advice, I can't help but feel like you just read what I wrote about you and tried to come up with some questions as quick as possible. While this is a good sign, it's tainted given the fact that I called you out for it. That said, it's D1 and nothing is set in stone.
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Radiant 242 wrote:Can we just agree to disagree SRMP?
I don't feel like arguing with you.
Um, these are fair questions. In other words, you don't feel like defending your vote. Or are you sticking with just pressure?
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In post 250, Ranger wrote:VOTE: RedCoyote
This vote won't be moving.
The exact order of my reads might fluctuate a little bit, but he'sfirmlyat the bottom.
Am I to assume this still based off reading 1 page out of 10ish like you said in 249?
Your reads are completely useless without anything to base them off of.-
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In post 264, Ranger wrote:
No, my vote was made with the full knowledge of all ten pages, thus, the changes to the reads list.Red Coyote wrote:Am I to assume this still based off reading 1 page out of 10ish like you said in 249?
The emphasis added is mine. First, you said that you had a scum read on me based "off the first page", and you voted me ~9 minutes later. You've just now told me that you had a "full knowledge of all ten pages" when you voted me. You read the first page, posted a reads list, read the additional nine pages, voted me, posted another reads list and called the other scum (All In) in approximately 12 minutes, correct? That's the accurate summation of your start to this game, Ranger?-
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In post 269, Ranger wrote:
Yes. And? What's the point you're trying to make here? That it's somehow strange I can read a page a minute.RedCoyote wrote:First, you said that you had a scum read on me based "off the first page", and you voted me ~9 minutes later. You've just now told me that you had a "full knowledge of all ten pages" when you voted me. You read the first page, posted a reads list, read the additional nine pages, voted me, posted another reads list and called the other scum (All In) in approximately 12 minutes, correct? That's the accurate summation of your start to this game, Ranger?
Oh, no, I don't think it's strange. I think it's a lie. I think either you came into this game and went through your scum PT for tips on how you should start this game off, or you read the first page, threw up an readslist based on the first page, and them skimmed through the rest pausing to swap a couple of names around.
I wouldn't mind the ten minute read through so much if you elaborated on what it is cause you to read person X as town or person Y as scum, but you deliberately decided not to tell us what you were basing your reads on. Leaving out that information was purposeful, presumably because you didn't want anyone to engage you over any of your interpretations of any of the exchanges the rest of the players had among one another. Another good example of this is when you stated in this post (269) that you had a "detailed" version of your reads that you neglected to mention. This definitely tells me that your entire start to this game is based on a foundation of fabrication. There's simply no way for you to have a "detailed" version of your readslist complete with an entire read through of the game in less than 15 minutes. On the other hand, had you told me that you had saw something scummy that I had said on the first page of the game, voted me, then went through the rest of the game and didn't find anything else particularly redeeming, that would've been a different story altogether, but now your contention is that you, one, read through the entire game, two, parsed the entire field of players into seven distinct tiers of scumminess, three, drew up this list in your first and third posts (along with the elimination of one of your tiers), four, claimed to have found both scum (along with the evidence that ties those two players together) in both neighborhoods, five, made four posts, and now six, claim you have a "detailed" version of your reads that you deliberately decided not to share with us... all in less than 15 minutes.
To those that would say, "oh, she probably read the game before she made her posts", well, no. Ranger went out of her way to tell us that her first post only applied to the first page. That stuck out to me immediately because it seemed like a very peculiar thing to point out when entering into a game. I don't recall ever seeing a player, much less a town player, pretend to have read the game to the degree of being able to segment the entire player list based solely on the first page. As if that weren't enough, you tell us that 9 minutes later you have completed the additional 9 pages, further segmented your readslist, and compiled a "detailed" version of these reads (that you declined to share with us, for whatever reason).
The town motivation for this behavior would be that you found yourself a tunnel extremely early on in the game. I'd be more inclined to take this point of view if I found some semblance of graduation to your posts/thoughts. I don't even mind getting voted right out of the gate by someone that's willing to engage me, even if it's just an attempt to trip me up, because then I can get a sense of whether or not this person is actively scumhunting as opposed to just coming out of the gate with an agenda. I must rule out the idea that this could be any sort of politically motivated vote, not only because you have yet to air your grievances with me in this game, but also because I have never played with you that I can recall. When removing that possibility, the idea that you could arrive to the conclusions you did, at the speed with which you did, without any sort of even pretense toward attempting to actively scumhunt... you are not just doing yourself a disservice (should you be town), but you're doing the rest of the town a disservice. You're doing yourself a disservice because it is in a townie's best interest to commit to a back and forth with all players, whether they be a scum or a town read, to see if there are misunderstandings, to see if there's common ground, to feel out where those people are on specific issues of the day (Which neighborhood should we lynch in? Is this wagon accomplishing its goal? Have you found potential connections between X and Y? etc). You're doing the rest of the town a disservice because it isn't enough to vote one player and check out whether that person be scum or town. There's something to be said for establishing yourself as a creditable player while in the game. I can't tell you the number of games I've heard the constant refrain of players killed or lynched early on only to come back in post-game with, "Oh, I had the scum nailed. You should've listened to me!" It's more than just being correct, it's being affirmed by the town. That's not to say that's where this is headed; I have no idea.
In any event, I ask again, do you maintain your story that you're confident you've solved the game (which is the only conclusion I can reach given your "I will not be moving my vote") in less than 15 minutes without any input from any player in this game? I want you to commit with me having laid my cards on the table, because you're effectively forcing my hand to vote you in kind. I know my alignment and I know lynching anyone else, should they flip town, will only increase the odds of my dying. I obviously can't work with a townie that has no interest in even keeping up the appearance of an open mind.-
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SRMP 341 wrote:before I read the rest, Ranger always throws up baseless readlists, just letting you know (I hate it too, but cant do anything about it)
I don't care if she does or doesn't. It doesn't serve the interests of this game to keep her around, from my perspective, if she's going to act like that. Not to go off on too much of a rant outside of what I've already done, but this is exactly the kind of poisonous behavior that has totally turned me off to MS. Honestly, I don't care about getting voted or lynched (especially given that my town game is not particularly strong, as anyone that has played with me before will attest to), but nonsense like, "I won't be moving my vote" in the context with which she said that is completely against the spirit of this game. So, you know, we can just vote one another until one of us is lynched if that's how we're going to play in 2016.
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Ranger 342 wrote:Takes one or two before people realize Ilikebeing lazy, putting as little effort as possible in.
UNVOTE: SRMP; VOTE: Ranger-
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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Oh, there's no need to humor me, hon. If that's how you play, that's how you play. We come from different schools of thought on Mafia. You strike me as such a cerebral player that I just don't know if I don't think I could work my magic on you if I wanted to. But lately I've been reaching into that magic bag and coming up empty even before we get rolling. It's like, and I'll just use one thing that you said as an example,
Ranger 344 wrote:Ihatedpost 4.
I could sit here and argue with you, you know, "Well, look, you didn't saywhyyou hated it... what kind of argument is this? How am I supposed to respond?", but, honestly, I know exactly why you said that. It hits me right in the heart because you can see right through me and I commend that. It's just not for the reason you think it is. I wish I could sit here and somehow transfer my mental position, for lack of a better word, to you. I have this capacity toward forcing myself to play as town in a way that I do not as scum. People think it's difficult to read me when it's really not. One thing someone said about me once, and I remember it to this day...
[url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=4298529#p4298529]The Chosen One (Micro 10) - Game Over![/url] GreyICE wrote:Fair warning about RedCoyote: He appears to care about this game. This may be a RedCoyote scumtell (although I utterly hate and despise the logic that someone plays more town when they're scum, in RC's case it's kinda true).
And he was right. And I did care about that game and I did sound town in that game and I did make it to LYLO in that game.
I don't know. I feel like I'm rambling now. I had a couple of drinks and this post isn't coming together exactly how I want it to. The short of it is that I am forcing it, but I wish I could tell you why it sounds like that without coming across as bias or "you would say that". I'm forcing it because I'm town. I hate being town. I only play Mafia for the chance at being scum. Even this post, and this is a post that couldn't be more from the heart if I wanted it to, I can sense how fake sounding it is. It's weird and it's funny but being town just doesn't come naturally to me. And lately I've been getting lynched on it more and more and more and more (especially that second link ... that one was a real heartbeaker). It's like, damn, you know, I've been around too long for this. I've done this enough that this shouldn't be a problem with me. It's like if you're feeling sad and someone comes up to you and says cheer up, you know? It's that same thing exactly. If it was that easy, I'd just do it.
And it's like, it's not even this big thing, but it hurts me a little inside each time it happens. Because it's a detraction, ultimately, you know? It's a net negative even if it's ultimately not a major factor in the game. And it's not like this thing that just never happens for me because sometimes I do fall into a groove that just works, but usually it isn't and it becomes this big waste of time.
I'm sorry, this is going on way too long. I don't want to make this all about me, but it all just started pouring out at once. This is something that should've been vented over the course of several months and it's just kind of all bubbling up at once as I've been sitting on this post screen for, like, an hour.-
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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In post 351, Ranger wrote:rather than assume it was something similar to your own "only commenting on things that are relevant" (I do that, too!), you call into question my ability to do what I did.- In post 262, RedCoyote wrote:Your reads are completely useless without anything to base them off of.
You chose not to expand. I have no intention of begging you for more information. You made a conscious decision not to do so.
In post 351, Ranger wrote:Rather than ask me questions, you reacted defensively. Rather than think objectively, you stretched my words. These weren't horrendous, but they are still reason to uphold the read.
The only question I needed to ask (which I did ask, so this argument that I "didn't ask questions" is erroneous, the fact that you neglected to present any sort of rationale whatsoever upon voting me notwithstanding), was whether or not my summary of your entry into this game was accurate. You confirmed to me that it was. There's absolutely no reason for me to engage with someone that immediately votes me upon entering the game and includes the tag line of "I will not be moving my vote". I don't make it a habit of talking to brick walls. You've since backed away from your absolute, which I appreciate, but when given the opportunity to do so after having initially confronting you about it, you scoffed. The point is, you shut down discussion, Ranger. You didn't want to hear from me. For you to use that against me now is disingenuous.-
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I noticed the deadline, but I have no intention of moving my vote. There's no sense in me trying to compromise if I am working against another player, be they town or scum, that acts the way Ranger is. I'm not trying to be a prick about it, but Ranger has shown no tangible willingness to acquiesce in the sense of trying to balance having a strong scum read/tunnel versus working in a practical manner to advance the town's win condition (i.e. vote movement). In other words, she's harming the town to such a degree that I do not think it's in the town's best interest for me to concede to her demands, even if it means I'm not advancing any other wagons.
We've got a bit of a standoff going on here, I guess you could say. I'm willing to put my gun down when I see some semblance of towniness in the context of what I said above. Another solution would be to lynch one of us, of course.
I've got a long drive today; I doubt I will make it back before the deadline. I just wanted to go on record that I am aware of the deadline and consciously choosing to keep my vote on Ranger at this time given the way she's acted.-
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Really, Radiant, I try to be a sensible guy when it comes to Mafia, but I don't have any confidence Ranger will change her ways going into D2.
It's weird because she actually had a solid case, I think (arrived to after the fact, imo, but that's a discussion for another post), but the whole thing is completely tainted by her mentality. I don't think she arrived to her scumread from an honest place.
What I'm looking at is if SRMP or Eagle or All In were to flip town, okay, we're right back where we started. If I thought Ranger had an open mind, was willing to go back and forth with me or whomever from a position of honesty, then I'd be willing to back off. But I don't see that and I don't know if you're going to be able to sell me on it. I think she's the only one that can.
Is theModwilling to suspend the deadline on account of replacing the SRMP slot?
The deadline will not be extended. The night phase will be extended if there isn't a replacement by the night's deadline, as indicated in the rules-post.Last edited by Cobblerfone on Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.-
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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I do think he has a fair shot at scum and I do want to lynch from our neighborhood.
UNVOTE: Ranger; VOTE: Some Random Mafia Player
As much as I want to be stubborn, well, whatever.
I don't want to think about this game for a couple of days, honestly.-
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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VOTE: Ranger
I'm going back to where I was before the deadline tempted me. I'm happy to re-explain to anyone why I am and will be voting Ranger for the foreseeable future.
In post 448, Kahlan wrote:Dang prohawk is gone.
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In post 502, Cobblerfone wrote:With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch!
Votecount 2.2
RedCoyote -
Frozen Angel - RadiantCowbells, All In (L-2)
All In - Ranger, Kahlan (L-2)
Extrapolated Eagle -
Ranger - RedCoyote (L-3)
RadiantCowbells - Frozen Angel (L-3)
Kahlan -
Not Voting -
You're missing Eagle on this VC, Mod.Fixed.
I'll post later. My town halls are about to start so I'm going to be watching that tonight. Plus I'm trying to plan an itinerary for next week which has me kind of distracted at the moment.Last edited by Cobblerfone on Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.-
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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Eagle 461 wrote:RCs AtE is nasty and self meta is something I actually only do as scum, so none of your recent posts make me feel any worse about this.
I don't know enough about Radiant to say one way or the other. I trust Frozen has a better grasp on him than anyone else in this game if you are going to rely on meta (and, of course, it goes without saying that you'd have to accept Frozen for being town, which I do, incidentally), but I'm not a big meta guy.
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Radiant 464 wrote:I mean the only notable thing about ProHawk is that he was scumreading FA.
He was heavily scumread by a ton of people.
I find that kill bizarre.
Points to Eagle. He seemed the loudest person in favor of lynching Eagle.
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Frozen 465 wrote:I forgot that we had a neighbourhood!
Have you went back to read it?
Also, this points to town, imo. Unless Frozen is lying, which I hope the west would tell us if she is.
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Eagle 471 wrote:K let's talk then. I'm not seeing the Coyote scum. She was actually my second town read after ranger although I will admit I skimmed at least a few of the posts that were way too long.
I'm a guy, actually. If you think Ranger and myself are both town, I assume you spoke about this with Ranger in your neighborhood?
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Radiant 474 wrote:Why are you supposing that I derailed the Prohawk lynch only to night kill him?
Like, if I wanted him dead (and there's no other reason to kill him here), I would have just let him be lynched. I would have vocally argued but not strong enough to keep him alive, and let him get lynched.
Let's not go down the WIFOM route.
Radiant 478 wrote:I am extremely reticent about townreading FA here.
I have some really bad feelings.
Do you see an issue with calling out Frozen for voting you based primarily on her meta experience with you and then making a post like this? What's most absurd about this is how we've done a 180 from yesterday when you two were slapping each other's backs in pursuit of ProHawk/Kahlan.
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Kahlan 496 wrote:First off this is not a scummy post. If you read the first day I defend Prohawk and I felt he was town and I didn't want him to be gone. I truly thought I was the one going to be killed during the night because people hate my post and one of the people I think to be scum could have killed me off. so maybe she isn't scum after all?
First off, if you have to tell people that a post isn't scummy, it's generally not a good sign. Second, if you were the most "misunderstood", why do you think the scum would want to kill you off because of that? Wouldn't it make more sense for scum to leave you alive?
Anyway, I can UNVOTE: Ranger now, which I am kind of relieved to do given that I don't particularly suspect her for scum so much as I was just making a statement vote.-
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RedCoyote Jack of All Trades
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In post 449, RadiantCowbells wrote:I think Kahlan is scum in our group but we're lynching in west side today.
In post 509, RadiantCowbells wrote:VOTE: RedCoyote
I think you were right here.
FA's the partner most likely but I'm going to pressure this first.
Yeah, you used that pressure line yesterday, too, Radiant.-
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I'm fascinated that no one responded to my 506. That really speaks to me. It seems to me the only possible angle All In has is Radiant's suspicions of Frozen. I think All In is well aware that Radiant is his only lifeline and is desperately clinging to him, but then Kahlan is currently voting All In.
Let's see if she continues to.
VOTE: All In (L-1)-
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Kahlan 621 wrote:Wow looks like I have some reading to do. Let me start writing my post. For now I'm going to UNVOTE: AllIn I don't want him getting lynched as I try to write out my post.
Okay, I think I have an idea what the scum team is now.
I wanted to see what Kahlan would do after voting All In. I'm now in a happy place. What was sticking out in my mind was that I wasn't convinced there was scum between Frozen/Radiant. Honestly, I have gotten town reads off of both of them from early on in the game (well, I needed Jeanne to replace out to see Frozen as town). As Radiant said, the ProHawk kill doesn't really do anything for him. The ProHawk kill helps Frozen somewhat, but I find her naked emotion today to be very difficult to fake. I think Radiant sees this, too, which is why he's been reluctant to vote her.
Had Kahlan not unvoted or given me some other indication that she continued to see All In as scum, I'd probably have looked toward Eagle or Ranger. Instead, I think Kahlan got nervous and backed away. What confirms this for me even more was that she didn't even have a "backup" vote, so to speak. Either she wasn't too keen on voting All In when she did vote him, or she has an interest in keeping pressure off of him. I'm not happy with either of those answers. In other words, she took her vote off of All In not because there was something more pressing that convinced her she found scum elsewhere, but only because of my additional vote. This may have been why she was quick to add how she was distrustful of Frozen in the same post she voted All In.
Frozen/Eagle, I do not think Radiant is the scum in our neighborhood, nor do I think we should be voting on the east side today.
Radiant, I think your intuition is right that Frozen is town. With that in mind, there is scum in the west.
I'm not usually online very late (which is seemingly when all the discussion takes place), so I have to make my posts count. All In fits as scum. No one is willing to go to bat for him. The scumteam killed out of the west side neighborhood last night as opposed to the east side. Ergo, they're more confident the scum on the west side is safer than the scum on the east side. He has completely proxied his vote to Radiant because he is unable to earn any townreads on his own accord. His play has changed day-over-day (see: 34/37 vs 492/498). He was completely unconcerned about Kahlan's vote and only seemed to care about my vote despite the fact that both Kahlan and myself are in the same neighborhood (see: 568, 580, 585). As a matter of fact, All In hasn't even mentioned Kahlan once today. Let's check out the last time All In mentioned Kahlan:
All In 229 wrote:I still think we should lynch ProHawk.
FA is town
RC is town
Kahlan I'm not too sure about, but reads as town being wrong.
East Side scum pool: Prohawk, Random
West Side scum pool: Kaboose, lewarcher
Still going to keep voting east side.
This was toward the end of D1. Notice his wishy-washy stance on Kahlan. How he arrived at this conclusion is anyone's guess, but it keeps him from having to comment more in depth. This post has all kinds of bad things going on with it, frankly.-
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This is not you struggling to decipher whether or not this is FA town?
If you are 100% convinced that Frozen is scum, why are you trying to "convince" her of anything (i.e. your alignment, to unvote X, etc)? Why are you wanting to "see more" from her? If you're not 100% convinced, then I think there's a piece of you that sees Frozen as town here that I am trying to bring out.-
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In post 647, Kahlan wrote:In post 645, RedCoyote wrote:Kahlan 621 wrote:Wow looks like I have some reading to do. Let me start writing my post. For now I'm going to UNVOTE: AllIn I don't want him getting lynched as I try to write out my post.
Okay, I think I have an idea what the scum team is now.
I wanted to see what Kahlan would do after voting All In. I'm now in a happy place. What was sticking out in my mind was that I wasn't convinced there was scum between Frozen/Radiant. Honestly, I have gotten town reads off of both of them from early on in the game (well, I needed Jeanne to replace out to see Frozen as town). As Radiant said, the ProHawk kill doesn't really do anything for him. The ProHawk kill helps Frozen somewhat, but I find her naked emotion today to be very difficult to fake. I think Radiant sees this, too, which is why he's been reluctant to vote her.
Had Kahlan not unvoted or given me some other indication that she continued to see All In as scum, I'd probably have looked toward Eagle or Ranger. Instead, I think Kahlan got nervous and backed away. What confirms this for me even more was that she didn't even have a "backup" vote, so to speak. Either she wasn't too keen on voting All In when she did vote him, or she has an interest in keeping pressure off of him. I'm not happy with either of those answers. In other words, she took her vote off of All In not because there was something more pressing that convinced her she found scum elsewhere, but only because of my additional vote. This may have been why she was quick to add how she was distrustful of Frozen in the same post she voted All In.
First off I only unvoted because I wanted the chance to read all the posts I had missed and see if that there was anyone who may or may not have more of a scum read. I honesty dont want us to mislynch on day2 we need to find scum. I had every intention of writing a post last night explaining my unvote and to list my scum reads but like I said before my baby wasn't feeling good so I wasnt able to catch up and post like I wanted too. I however can tell you for sure that I am town. I wasnt unvoting because I got nervous I dont mind lynching scum if that person is scum but I believe in having a chance to reread and see if my scum read is right. I didnt want a possible mislynch because I didnt get the chance to read over the new posts. with that said I have missed out on a lot and clearly have a lot of catching up to do and I will try and do that now.
Sounds good. I look forward to what you have to say.-
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Kahlan 651 wrote:If this was a just a ruse to see my reaction why are you still voting for him??
Because your actions spoke more than your words did.
Kahlan 651 wrote:I do want to note though that Radiant did ask ranger to unvote. Which to me would imply to some extent that he thinks AllIn is town.
Oh, I don't deny that people have an All In town read "by default", but no one arrived to that conclusion on the merits of his posting is what I'm getting at. I have a town read of Frozen irrespective of my reads on Ranger/All In/Eagle, for example. I wanted to know if anyone could say the same thing about All In. Does that make sense?
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Frozen 653 wrote:why should we restrictly lynch from the west side?
As far as I'm concerned, the goal should be to keep forcing the scumteam to choose between two even neighborhoods if at all possible. I think I learned something from the ProHawk NK, did you? Can you present Radiant scum in the context of a ProHawk kill and/or a east-side neighborhood kill?
I can state unequivocally that the ProHawk kill changed some of my reads on this game.
Frozen 655 wrote:RedC whats your read on RadinatC and why?
I say he's town, but if I am wrong on a read I do think it's my Radiant read. I'm more confident in All In being scum than I am about who his partner is on the east-side. I think Radiant, even if he doesn't want to admit it and wants to put on a big front about his confidence levels, is struggling to read you as scum. He wants you to be scum, I don't know, because it makes the game easier. Y'all both have this pride about being able to read each other, but I know from experience that pride comes before the fall. I just don't think scum-Radiant or scum-Frozen would've killed ProHawk. That's a simply as I can put it.
I think I presented a fairly solid case against All In and I hope you take it seriously if no one is willing to join you in voting Radiant.-
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I would like to know why no one has even responded to my case on All In. Even All In himself spit on me (I mean, I can't blame him, as he's scum, but still... you think he'd at least make a token effort at defending himself). I'm the only person that has presented a case today with the exception of Eagle's case on Radiant that no one is interested in.
No, I'm not lynching Eagle because he's your current suspect of the hour, Radiant. Nor am I interested in lynching Frozen. Nor Ranger.
I'm going to have to start putting my foot down and taking lead of this town because I'm getting a little sick of y'all dicking around when I have the game solved. We're lynching All In today. Get aboard or tell me why I'm wrong.-
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In post 662, All In wrote:There is no way we are lynching Kahlan.
Lol. Yeah, good thinking there, bud.
I like how you equated my point that you haven't mention Kahlan at all today with the idea that we should lynch her. Because those two things are exactly the same, right?-
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In post 677, RadiantCowbells wrote:In post 673, RedCoyote wrote:I would like to know why no one has even responded to my case on All In. Even All In himself spit on me (I mean, I can't blame him, as he's scum, but still... you think he'd at least make a token effort at defending himself). I'm the only person that has presented a case today with the exception of Eagle's case on Radiant that no one is interested in.
No, I'm not lynching Eagle because he's your current suspect of the hour, Radiant. Nor am I interested in lynching Frozen. Nor Ranger.
I'm going to have to start putting my foot down and taking lead of this town because I'm getting a little sick of y'all dicking around when I have the game solved. We're lynching All In today. Get aboard or tell me why I'm wrong.
why are you townreading me.
vote all in-
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Sorry, I'm here.
All In's vote switch caught me off guard a bit.
The three candidates that I think could conceivably reach a lynch at the moment are All In, Eagle and Radiant.
We all need to weigh those candidates in our minds and the positive and negative outcomes each lynch provides.
If we lynch Radiant and he flips town, scum are forced to shoot west. Then the town has to decide between myself and Kahlan. I think I've done enough to prove that I'm the town in this neighborhood. Then it would be me, west-scum and west-town.
Like, if we lynch Radiant and he's town, you're effectively voting to put me in the LYLO position. I don't have a great track record with LYLO, I don't think. I'd have to run through my history to check. I can't remember the last time I was in LYLO. The last LYLO I remember was with me as a confirmed vig. We had an RB, an ascetic and a VT. I told the RB to block the VT, I shot the RB and the ascetic ended up being the final scum, lol. Anyway, I know y'all don't want to hear some old war story.
If we lynch All In/Eagle and they flip town, then the scum team has to choose which neighborhood they kill in, which (and I've said this multiple times now, but I'll keep saying it until it sticks) I think is a very helpful thing for us. It tells us immediately which neighborhood the scum think they are "stronger" in by making that neighborhood a 50/50 versus a 33/33/33. In other words, whichever neighborhood the scum shoot in means that they're wanting us to do a 50/50 lynch from that neighborhood.
Any comments on that?-
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That's a fair point. Ranger/Frozen are on record as not suspecting you as the scum in the west. I have no intention of voting you over All In at the moment. No one has yet to refute my case against him nor sold me on why he is likely town. Ergo, I don't see where the hammer vote comes from.-
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No, you are misreading. The scum wouldn't have to choose which neighborhood to kill in if we lynch townRadiant (which is how I get the LYLO scenario). It's clear they would shoot in the west in that case.
Of course, if Radiant is scum, then all bets are off. I'm just trying to come at it from a worst-case scenario POV.-
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I'm not "afraid" of anything. This is a game. I'm simply putting that out there because it's something that ought to be considered if the lynch comes from the east side again. Unlike you, I don't assume every lynch is going to hit scum. When I'm town, I look at the game from a position of 'what if...?' Notice I even did that for the instance of All In flipping town. I'm not foolish enough to bank on any player flipping scum because that's the definition of a confirmation bias right there.
I'm not "so sure" that Radiant will flip town. I said that I think he would:
In post 661, RedCoyote wrote:Frozen 655 wrote:RedC whats your read on RadinatC and why?
I say he's town, but if I am wrong on a read I do think it's my Radiant read. I'm more confident in All In being scum than I am about who his partner is on the east-side. I think Radiant, even if he doesn't want to admit it and wants to put on a big front about his confidence levels, is struggling to read you as scum. He wants you to be scum, I don't know, because it makes the game easier. Y'all both have this pride about being able to read each other, but I know from experience that pride comes before the fall. I just don't think scum-Radiant or scum-Frozen would've killed ProHawk. That's a simply as I can put it.
I think I presented a fairly solid case against All In and I hope you take it seriously if no one is willing to join you in voting Radiant.
Now you can keep running your mouth with these misinterpretations or you can take what I say seriously. Why did you even bother asking me a question if you didn't read my answer?-
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In post 732, Frozen Angel wrote:In post 730, RedCoyote wrote:Now you can keep running your mouth with these misinterpretations or you can take what I say seriously. Why did you even bother asking me a question if you didn't read my answer?
I read your answer. and I don't like the way you started to make a shield for not lynching RC as it puts you in a bad situation. thats scum minded thinking.
and yeah I can do that. I will misinterpret whoever I want to understand what their saying. any problem with that?
You want to lynch Radiant? Go ahead. I've told you several times now that I do not think that's the way we should go as a town, but you haven't been able to counter me. I explained why, in detail, I thought lynching from the west side was better. Now it's your turn...-
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Uh, we're going to get a 50-50 regardless if we mislynch either neighborhood, Frozen. The scum team is going to bring one of the neighborhoods down to 50-50 unless they don't shoot.
If we mislynch in the west, however, the scum is forced to choose which neighborhood to make 50-50, whereas if we mislynch on the east, the most town player on the west will be killed (which, from the looks of it, will either be you or Ranger).-
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Further, I could care less about 50-50. I've already said that I think I'd be able to show y'all that I am town whether I'm left with Radiant or Kahlan.
What I'm not looking forward to is being stuck with myself and two players on the east side.-
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The main issue I have with All In is that I think he's the most likely partner with Kahlan, but he could also make sense as a Radiant partner. Eagle only really works with Radiant (but he does work with Radiant well). Ranger could conceivably be both, too, but I don't suspect her nearly as much.
If I were picking the most likely partnerships at the moment, I'd be going:
All In - Kahlan
All In - Radiant
Radiant - Eagle
Radiant - Ranger
Kahlan - Ranger
Kahlan - Eagle
Kahlan - Frozen
Radiant - Frozen-
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Radiant, who is your scumteam? Myself and Eagle or Kahlan and Eagle? Or other?
Ranger, I'm curious as to why you're not invested in trying to convince others to join the All In wagon? Yeah, you just made a token 762, but I haven't really heard a lot prior to that.
I feel like not enough people are being straightforward in this game. Radiant has just gotten so tightlipped. Kahlan flips her vote to... Ranger. Ranger has, "nothing else to say". All In is scrambling, but I honestly can't blame him for that (though I hated 742 with a passion). Eagle seems content to say nothing else. I'm getting this impression that they (Radiant, Eagle, Kahlan and Ranger) don't really care whether Eagle or All In gets lynched, which is kind of worrying to me.-
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I'm here. I drew up a post yesterday, but I saved it as a draft because I wanted to hear what Radiant had to say first. I'm sitting here in an airport right now waiting for my flight to board here in a few minutes. I'll check back in the morning and see if anything new has happened, until then...-
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This has been poking at the back of my mind over the course of today. This is something I've constantly tried to squelch as a red herring, but a multitude of factors have contributed toward bringing it more and more to the forefront of my thinking. Please know that this is not something that I have been leading up to, but rather something that has been growing over the course of the day due to circumstance.
VOTE: RadiantCowbells
1) an unwillingness to critically look at All In when he necessarily must see him as town to continue to vote for Eagle
2) a lack of scumhunting in our own neighborhood (whereas with Kahlan she has shown some willingness to engage the game thoughtfully)
3) Frozen remains utterly convinced that this is scumRadiant, which, given that I do see this as townFrozen, must hold weight in my mind
4) completely checked out once the wagons shook out to be Eagle vs All In... this worries me because he doesn't seem to care if either of these players are lynched
5) his read with regard to Frozen has been erratic, swinging from calling her "pretty town", appealing to her emotions, calling her scum, ignoring her, to apathy, to effectively townreading her again due to his vote, to now, finally, voting her once again
There's something underneath all of this, and I'm no longer getting town motivations from it. I think that especially this long awaited "reread" was just an excuse for him to double down on his pointless Frozen attack that does nothing to advance the town's interests. I do not accept that both All In and Eagle are town. I do not accept that this is one big charade from Frozen. I think Frozen has Radiant's number here and he is clueless about how to effectively respond to her genuinely. He has tried several different approaches, none of them worked, so now he's attempted to "sacrifice" himself to preemptively stop people from voting him (which was bound to happen if neither Eagle/All In picked up steam). Whereas I previously thought that Kalhan and All In was the most likely scumteam, it now appears to me that Radiant and Eagle are the most likely scumteam. I think Frozen has been completely on point this entire day, but it took me a while to come around to what she was seeing in Radiant. I had this post mostly typed up a couple of days ago, but I wanted to give Radiant one last opportunity to convince me that he was actually willing to put forth the effort to predict the scum here. I was disappointed to see him only retreat to his Frozen scumread, which was his tired strategy from fairly early on in this game. I've seen this tactic for years... tunnel a player that you "know well" in order to get people to think it is a town vs town fight, then get they'll eventually move their votes elsewhere when they see how "sincere" you are. He had me convinced for a while, but what ultimately had me convinced this was a ruse was when he couldn't successfully transition from being incredulous about Frozen to actually pretending to scumhunt.
Anyway, I feel confident about this. I hope I can discuss this with Ranger and Kalhan and get their votes before the day is up.-
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If you were actually curious, I'm tired of waiting for you to give a damn about who gets lynched today. No one is holding you to any standards except the standards of a supposed town player that actually cares about lynching scum. No one, absolutely no one, is interested in lynching Frozen today. Yet you continue to push that... the only reasonable conclusion I can come to is your pushing her for show.-
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