Micro 657: Vanillite Mafia (Game Over!)

[shannon]

Coolies, I'm first. VOTE: Creature because I know the name

[shannon]

What do you guys think of gucci mane

I don't know what gucci mane is?

[shannon]

@Dark Horse are you related to Zachstrilka at all?

[shannon]

Creature how are you townreading shannon

If I had to guess it's because I played my first scum game with him, so he knows what to look for (I'm new here, only 2 scum games so far).

[shannon]

@dark horse it's just me making conversation. Zach also posts song lyrics in almost every post.

[shannon]

I have no idea, I think we might have different tastes in music. I couldn't recognise any of the songs from the lyrics.

FWIW I have no reads yet, I don't get how to even start having reads this early in the game.

[shannon]

Hey guys

VOTE: shannon

I did what it says in your sig and checked out some of your previous games. Then I checked my own wiki link, and there's nothing there. How do you even make a wiki?

PS - I agree with you about scum being more fun to play, but hopefully neither of us is having a fun game today and we're both Team Town.

[shannon]

@dark horse it's just me making conversation. Zach also posts song lyrics in almost every post.

Yeah that's what I figured, which makes getting a town read off it it weird

Does this zach guy posts lyrics from good songs

On review of the thread: Maybe Creature is scum and faking the read? IDK, I'll let him answer that, but I'll stay on him as a Real Vote not just an RVS vote, for want of better options.

[shannon]

If someone else would like to post in this game too, that would be great!

[shannon]

Dude I literally answered your first question earlier today. Try to actually

comprehend

stuff before asking questions

If someone hammered her at L-1 right now then they've basically admitted that they're scum.

Umm but you just called *me* scum, so why would someone hammering me (I'm at L-2 by the way) make *them* scum?

[shannon]

Well, that's a quality night of posting I've woken up to!

[shannon]

There are four scenarios for if shannon is put at L-1 right now and then immediatley quickhammered.

Shannon is scum, Person hammering is town: though it would nail scum, hammering as town rn if a really bad decision because of how little this game has progressed
Shannon is scum, person hammering is scum: Would be one hell of a bus, but very unlikely, considering how much scrutiny the hammering person would be under
Shannon is town, person hammering is town: See first option. Hammering as town now is really stupid
Shannon is town person hammering is scum: Denies the town the rest of the day while not lynching your partner. The only option that doesn't involve shooting yourself in the foot.

As such, the only scenario where I see a quicklynch actually happening is if shannon is town and the person hammering is scum. It's not like I 100% known that shannon is scum

lol @ Aeronaut thinking I'm tunneling just because I'm actually trying to put some effort wrt a scum read

First - it's interesting that you're focussing on me here, and not on Creature who at last VC was also at L-2.

Second - there's also this option: I get put at L-1, scum know it will draw attention if they hammer early, so they don't do it.

Your theory is that if I get hammered and flip town, my hammmerer is scum. This is a great way to give scum two mislynches - you get to hit me because you think I'm scum, and then you get to admit you were wrong and avenge my death.

If you're scum, you should know that your post was about as subtle as a brick. If you're town, it's thick as a brick. This game is too small to be lining up lynches based on page 3 reads.

[shannon]

VOTE: Dark Horse This isn't an OMGUS because he's targeting me, it's a vote on someone who's lining up lynches in a pretty scummy way

[shannon]

The only reason a townie should hammer another townie is if they are genuinely mistaken and think that the other townie is scum.

[shannon]

Maybe if we're quiet for a while someone else will say something

[shannon]

PS - I agree with you about scum being more fun to play, but hopefully neither of us is having a fun game today and we're both Team Town.

My biggest problem with shannon comes with how forced this line feels. Yeah, I can see a noob town doing "fwiw I have no reads right now," but this in particular comes off as incredibly unnatural.

That's

what your whole read is about? Yeah, it's unnatural, I think I've said elsewhere that I struggle with social stuff and I'm still learning the 'script' for mafia. My whole life feels unnatural, I have to learn responses that are appropriate. It's NAI at best and something I'd try to cover up more as scum at worst.

[shannon]

@Aeronaut's 88 - I didn't realise I was being cautious. This is just how I am, since I got in trouble my very first game for tunneling someone who turned out to be town, and then tunneling the person they were arguing with, who turned out to be the doc.

[shannon]

Im with a thinkbig wagonVOTE: thinkbig

Probably because you've jumped on a wagon just because it's a wagon?

i really would like to lynch algebra tbh

why what no why

[shannon]

Ugh put the quotes around the wrong way but you get the idea

[shannon]

Strongest town read on Think Big, he was active up until VLA and was asking helpful questions and asking people to explain their reads. Town for now.

Can't tell what Aeronaut's up to, but he seems to be encouraging activity so that's town-for-now

Creature is giving reads (even if they're fairly naked ones) and trying to encourage activity so again, town-for-now

Leaning Town on Dark Horse for his overall body of work, but I'd need to ignore the part where he appears to be lining up lynches. He's been consistently active and has been scum hunting.

Algebra's ISO looks scummy so far, with the wagon hopping, but I don't know whether scum would be that obvious? He is even newer than I am so maybe it's newbie scum and the partner isn't around to give advice? Null leaning slightly to scum

Flames has two posts, can't get a read on that.


Going to check vote count before voting

[shannon]

I would vote Algebra but I don't want anyone at L-1 yet. So onward up the list I go.

VOTE: Flames

[shannon]

That's L-2 for Flames

[shannon]

So what have you got for us Think Big?

[shannon]

@Dark Horse why didn't you announce L-1 on Algebra? And why have you voted there, given that you've tunnelled me all day but have said almost nothing (I don't want to say nothing in case I missed one) about him?

@Algebra is there anything you'd like to say in your own defense here?

[shannon]

UNVOTE: Creature

Still working on catching up! Been a long week.

Dude we're on page 6 and most posts are like one or two lines, get with the program

[shannon]

UNVOTE:

[shannon]

Postie's entrance looks townier than some of the other stuff I'm seeing here, so I've unvoted that slot since it was a vote mostly based on inactivity.

I'm a bit put off that Postie has made a towny looking entrance but scum reads one of my other town reads, in Think Big.
@Postie how can you tell that Alegebra is 'newbie town' but scum read Think Big, who has the same level of newbiness?

I'm frustrated that Aero and Creature both need prods. I'm even more weirded out that if I accept Algebra as newbie town and keep my other reads, that makes them the scum team. Surely not?

Not voting until I get more info x

[shannon]

That was a tongue in cheek comment, I don't think he's actually picked up on anything. In that game I was super town read and he was super scum read.

[shannon]

@Aeronaut Re: 157 (because I still can't work out how to break up big quotes)

1) Creature gave me the impression that he was participating and encouraging others to do so, if only by doing things like saying RVS was ended, and throwing out reads that seemed to encourage response or more questioning. I agree it's not the strongest read in the world, for sure, but at that point in the game it was 'enough'.

2) I don't necessarily mean that scum have day talk, but isn't it fairly normal that scum get to have a wee chat before the day starts? I don't know how usual it would be for scum to get day talk in a game this small, or even, is there likely to be more than one scum to look for?

3) I don't like L-1ing someone if I'm not happy for them to be hammered. I do it occasionally (and sometimes accidentally), but at this early stage in the game I think it's not the right time. Especially if the candidate is a newbie. If say, you or Creature had done enough scummy stuff that I thought you were worthy of a vote, and you failed to defend yourself to the newbies in the game, then I'd L-1 for sure. I guess I'm trying to leave room for newbie error. (Though given that I'm a newbie, that might be an error on my part, too).

[shannon]

Because I wasn't here really and this game is filled with newbies who wouldn't care either way. You're scum, you don't want to prolong the day, yea?

Unless it gets me towncred. If enough people are gunning for an algebra lynch already, he'd just end up being lynched another day anyway so what does it matter to me?

From what I saw in word sneak, you as scum took a backseat role and let the town kind of hash each other out. Here you're making a show of yourself.

Backseat role? Were we reading the same game? I deathtunneled the shit out of my partner.

105. Pretty good example from what I'm talking about. New scum doesn't make that post.

Aero, that's a goddamn basic list of safe as fuck reads, with a sentence of justification for each. I'm not sure what I'm missing here, but you should probably point it out to me. You're better than this.

@Postie are you scum reading Aeronaut?

And I'm not getting any sort of brazen or ballsy from his posts. What he's done today is tunnel Shannon for what seemed like little to no reason, and then gave us one of the thinnest lines of reasonings possible (see 89). And then he backpedalled and basically jumped on the next viable wagon which was algebra

@Aeronaut I'm weighing up this slot in light of your comments. On the plus side, I felt like his push on me was genuine. On the minus, he used it to line up lynches, and then as you say he jumped ship ASAP after it became clear no one was going to buy a lynch on me today.

Are you trying to say Shannon is scum?

Absolutely not.

What on Earth were the past few pages about then? The only thing I can come up with is that you are scum reading Aero and think that his read on me is fake. Is that what's going on?

[shannon]

Sorry for my absence today, I've been laying a path (boring but necessary - pro tip kids, put off home ownership as long as you can).

Super quickie catch up before I go off to an early night of sleep. So glad to see the game actually becoming a game, I don't get it when people just lurk out. Like if you don't want to play, don't sign up

Hi Wyvernite!

Yay welcome!

I would like to hear more from algebra, as I feel his alignment will come rather naturally to everyone if he just posts more content. I'll do a read over again tomorrow when I get the chance, it's hard to process everything when it's as quick as lackluster as I feel it currently is.

I'd like to see more content from EVERYONE

, no one is really explaining reads to the full effect that I'd like. Or really sharing hard reads at all.

I get that it's early into the game, but you have to start somewhere.

You have hit on the head the reason that I kept on posting while everyone was lurking out and being replaced. Indeed, you have to start somewhere, and I would never claim that my early game reads list was the most thorough thing going, only that I hoped to give others something to respond to. If no one chose to respond, I don't know how I'm responsible for that? I don't want to make bold, controversial statements just to get a reaction, there are enough players of that style in this game as it is.

It seems like a 'thing' has been made about whether my non-lurking counts as evidence for a town read. (And whether I count as an experienced player?! I'll say on that front that I feel very much like I have the L Plates on). I will save everyone the task of checking my wiki and just say that activity for me is NAI. The only time I've ever lurked was as VT in a large game where I'd wake up to like, hundreds of new posts, most of which were about absolute crap. In that one I found it hard to get a word in, so I basically opted out until late game. Otherwise, I enjoy mafia, I like playing, and playing works best when people participate. So I post any time I have anything to say, as any alignment. It's NAI.

@Dark Horse, re: this comment - "Her activity posts are among some of the laziest content you can attempt to provide in order to "look busy." They're more scummy than town, as it makes a person look like they're participating without actually having to produce any content. "

I am not sure what more I could have posted during a period where no one else seemed to be playing the game? What would you have done in my place?

I think a big reason we have such opposite reads is because I guess we see things as differently indicative. I don't remember if you're originally from offsite or maybe just have different experiences and play differently, but usually abandoning reads to jump onto a popular wagon is seen as scummy almost all of the time. "logical progression" or a clear thought process and actions is something that's almost always seen as very town-oriented; scum have a lot harder time explaining their reasoning for doing things or sometimes there's not a clear motivation or thought process involved because they're making up justifications as they go along.

I agree with this, and I think you're in a TvT battle.

[shannon]

Aero, it's completely natural for a towny to be suspicious of someone's motives for making a push on them. You know you're town, and especially when you're new you tend to be arrogant and assume everyone else should know it too, so you end up being intensely suspicious of anyone who questions that fact because

why are they trying to lynch a towny dammit

. This is what I'm seeing with DH, and the way he's going about it feels incredibly genuine because of the fact I can see several layers of thought and paranoia; I don't see why it matters if that's within a short span of time or not. I don't see him being able to fake this whole thing as scum.

I'll respond to the rest of this stuff in the morning.

I will go further and say that not only does it seem genuine on DH's part, it'd be bad strategy if he's scum.

A cursory glance of my first five or ten posts in any game will show exactly the same behaviour he thinks he picked up here, i.e. I'm a bit weird and I don't know how to person in mafia yet. (Probably posts like this are not personing but let's just go with it). Not to mention, a quick look at my wiki would show that I've never been lynched. Unless the scum team are silly, or not doing any research, they'd have to know that I'm not a good target for a D1 quick wagon.

So - I think DH is town, and he is/was genuine in his assessment of me. The worrying thing to me was always that he is appearing to line up lynches based on my flip, and I'm a tad worried that he seems to be following the wagons. But! And this is the thing for me, if he is super new then he might not know that's a bad thing to do. I have certainly played town games where I have tried to look townier by following the leader, only to be scum read for perceived lack of reasoning behind my moves.

I'm pretty happy at this point with town reads on DH, Postie, and Aero, who I think is genuine in his town read on me. There'd be nothing to stop him backing off or just 'null' reading me, so the fact that he's even bothered to argue for me says 'town' at this point.

[shannon]

allright so I had to stay late at work so I apologize for not getting to analyze as much of the thread today as I wanted to, but I'll throw in a really quick and dirty rundown of reads thus far

I'll start with my town of
AERO - The amount of detail that he's gone into all of his posts seems very indicative of town, and I don't see him being mafia at all, especially with the posts he constantly references to support his reads/questions
Shannon - I currently believe that Shannon and I's thought processes are very similar, and being able to step into her shoes and see the game through her eyes makes me very happy in my read with her currently.

Null - Algebra/TB - I feel like these two will be key to winning, but with the amount of single\double lined posts that are only to be found here and there I can't confidently read them.

Scum
Postie - The amount of questions that are asked here, seem to be keeping everyone busy, and when prompted about her own reads we get that: it'll either "come later" 205, "it feels/sounds towny/genuine" 194 197 198 in these posts there is also the notion that aggressive = good which I don't find to be true at all. There are also really no thoughts of her own regarding her own reads. All of the pressure I see on aero, he responds well to imo, and gives no real substance back. Everyone seems to be townreading her for asking questions and sorting aero, but I honestly don't see it.
Dark Horse - I like a lot of points that aero brings up here (see: 200 211) Which I haven't liked any of his defense of. I think Postie's townreads are just an attempt to relieve pressure from her partner, which makes them both look worse in my eyes. I also believe that postie seems to be chainsawing for dark in response to aero's pressure

Scumreading the two people who call you out? Boooooo

Since you said it was a quick lowdown, I won't grill you on your lack of detail until you make a post that actually explains stuff like why Aeronaut's detail stands out, and why you don't like my defense at all.

There's several other wack parts about your posts, though.

If you and shannon have similar thought processes, why are your reads so different? Both of your scumreads are people that shannon thinks are town.

Postie's defense on me is far more then "it seems town." She's been cery clear with how she thinks I've been showing a logical thought process, which your strong townread Aero has said is very town indicative.

I hate the fact that you say you "pretty much agree" with what aero's saying about me. You sound like scum trying to piggy back off of a townie's read.

You better have some good content when you have time to provide more, because postwise you're 0/2

Grrr I tried to post like three times earlier today, and kept getting the 'page cannot be found' thing which made me think that the server had gone down again. Now I can't remember what I was going to say. NVM.

[shannon]

Ugh, why did the quick reply just insert the quotes I was going to respond to in my next post?!

Anyway --

@Wyvernite: You complained about the one and two lined posts, and about the walls. You can't have it both ways.

If you think I'm town because you can see how I got to my conclusions, then try to convince me I'm wrong. I'm willing to listen to reason.



I feel like there's scum trying to create artificial factions between me/aero and DH/Postie. It's not an either/or situation, folks.

[shannon]

I'm liking the spurt of activity
My top town read is dark horse
Top scum is thinkbig

Algebra could you please expand on these thoughts? Do you have any other scum/town reads, and what are your reasons for the reads you've just given?

[shannon]

@Postie could you please do me a wee favour and pop up a reads list? I'm trying to discern them from your posts but I keep getting confused with all the references to 'he' and 'she' without having names on them.

[shannon]

@Aeronaut -

Townier - DH, Postie, Aero

Scummier - TB, Algebra, Wyvern ... I would be happy to lynch anywhere in here today.

Actually I'm not voting yet, so VOTE: Wyvern

[shannon]

I wouldn't hate a Wyv lynch, but I think my preference is still for a ThinkBig lynch right now, just because algebra has been latched onto ThinkBig all game so a scumflip there basically clears him.

I realize I might've been interpreting algebra's 260 wrong. I was assuming that he meant share reads as in "all of shannon's reads are similar to my reads" instead of "shannon's reads line up with the 2 reads that I have"

Though if he's not calling aeronaut town, I don't like that he basically's said nothing about aeronaut aside from that one post criticizing something aeronaut said

Yeah I was confused about that too, because I am scum reading him? So if he agrees with all my reads, he should be scum reading himself?

[shannon]

and I don't like the fact that he basically admitted to sheeping shannon's reads.

If you're talking about 260, I believe he was saying he townread shannon for having similar reads to him (which, btw, is a terrible reason to townread someone), not that he was sheeping her. I don't see why sheeping someone would be scummy anyway though.

It feels like he's trying to piggyback off of a townie's reads, especially considering how little reads he's given publicly

@DH - I find it interesting that you're now referring to me as 'a townie'. It doesn't feel genuine.

To recap:

You super scum read me from the start of the game.

Someone calls you out and asks you to provide a case, so that you can convince them that I'm scum too. In 229 you respond by saying "Right now trying to convince people that shannon's scum is not a priority for me"

In the same post, you say I'm less scummy.

And now, in 278 with no further analysis, you refer to me as a 'townie'.

Can you please explain the thought process behind this change of read? Because it's looking pretty convenient to me.

[shannon]

@Aero 284 - I do town read DH, in spite of his early tunnel on me. I just find it weird that his read on me has gone from 'scum must die' to 'townie'. I'm not scum reading him, just asking the question.

I think Wyvern needs to go today.

[shannon]

I am a bit hesitant to change votes when algebra still hasn't provided anything, especially onto someone who is currently V/LA. For now I'll UNVOTE: and FOS TB, but i'm not putting a vote on him until we hear more

Based on what, exactly? I just checked your ISO and ctrl+f TB. You have a whole bunch of posts saying the slot is null or you can't get a read. So why the FOS?

[shannon]

@Wyvern - -

243 - "Null - Algebra/TB - I feel like these two will be key to winning, but with the amount of single\double lined posts that are only to be found here and there I can't confidently read them."

269 "I have no reads on TB/Algebra, there's nothing there, not that I can read atleast. I see that you guys are putting up all sorts of reasons why one is town/mafia, I simply have yet to see enough amount of info from either to have reads that mean anything, I can arbitrarily throw scum/town around like everyone else here seems to be doing, but you won't catch me doing it."

286 "@aero you'll also see i'm voting algebra. I want to hear from him, as I think he's the lynch today if he doesn't speak up. I don't have enough of an opinion to give reasons to why I dislike him. While I think that DH/Postie could be scum, that doesn't mean I can't be wrong. I am more than willing to consider other people, as TB is V/LA, I'm voting algebra. His inactivity is more unsettling to me than anything that dh/postie have done. I guess I didn't really express that in my posts which is my bad. I'm just hesitant to lyncyh people who haven't been talking at all, at least until we have to because we're out of time."

287 "SO'ing TB is a bit annoying, as most of his posts are earlier into the game asking very simple/basic questions that feel like he's asking just for the sake of asking, and doesn't really feel like anything. I don't really understand his reasoning behind anything that he's posted, besides the questions. I guess I was excusing it because of how early into the game it was. I'll be more critical of him moving forward, as I don't see any of his posts being town-indicative. If TB ends up being mafia I would definitely say algebra is town, or is bussing incredibly hard for a d1 micro game. I think someone has already mentioned that though. I've got a paper to write so I can't go back to find out who it was that said it originally."

Please explain how this results in a vote on Algebra, and a FOS on TB? Because it looks like a whole lotta nothing to me. Shouldn't you be voting a scum read? Instead of voting someone who would be town, if your other scum read flips scum?

[shannon]

I think Wyvern needs to go today.

Why?

I think his reads are faked for convenience. There's been a lot of emphasis placed on logical thought progression, and I just don't see it. Particularly the latest FOS on TB, which I've just posted quotes about.

To me, FOS is what you say when 1) your scum read isL-1 and you want to give them a chance to post before hammering, or 2) you're voting your top scum read and also fingering your second scum read.

But Wyvern has said that if TB flips scum, Algebra is town. And he is voting Algebra, while FOSing TB. Meanwhile, his ISO is full of comments that he has no read on TB. Super weird. Super fake. Super trying to avoid bussing to save his own wagon.

[shannon]

TL;DR Postie gets TB by POE.

[shannon]

Super trying to avoid bussing to save his own wagon.

Hey shannon, if this is what you believe, shouldn't you be okay with us lynching TB today?

Not only is wyv signifigantly scummier but a TB lynch gives us next to nothing. Considering there might be two scum in this setup, we could go to lylo with no progress on anything this day.

Looks like DH and I are on the same wavelength

[shannon]

but a TB lynch gives us next to nothing.

If we lynch him today and he flips scum:

• algebra is cleared
  
• we're left with a pool of 4 people to choose between to lynch, all of which are actively posting

If we lynch him today and he flips town:

• we eliminate an unknown who was going to be lynched eventually anyway
  
• we don't have to keep get frustrated over the fact that he's not doing anything

If we don't lynch him today:

• we'll likely have to decide whether to lynch between him or algebra tomorrow, and if we choose wrong we lose
  
• that's not a choice I trust town with please let's not go there guys

[/quote]

- Algebra isn't cleared. If we only get two mislynches, then a bit of scum bussing D1 is a plausible strategy.

- Why are you assuming TB is going to be lynched anyway? Are you now lining up lynches?

- You're assuming that say TB or Algebra aren't going to be night killed if we lynch Wyvern today.
- Why are you leaving me off of the 'tomorrow' list when I'm a scum read of yours? No faith in your ability to make that case? Or do you think I'm dead tonight?

- So you think we can choose TB out of {TB, Wyvern, Algebra} today, but you think it's impossible to choose between {TB and Algebra} tomorrow? Please explain how that works.

[shannon]

PS I"m not being speedlynched at any point, I've never been lynched in my short history on site and I'm not about to start now.

[shannon]

Tinfoil hat theory: Postie is scum

[shannon]

Nightkilling Postie will make me look bad so I'll have to do things another way. :[

FTFY

[shannon]

Your vote count's wrong, you're at L-1. Quit fucking around and give us the content you promised you'd give us

+1

Do it or someone is gonna hammer you just for being a dick

[shannon]

I hate it when this happens, if we're going to lynch lurkers just because they're lurking then the wincon for scum is just participation. But you're right, we can't go on with a potential townie who's not helping town. We can't take TB to LYLO I don't think.

[shannon]

I think we give it another ~18 hours and then whichever of TB and Wyvern has contributed least in that time gets hammered.

[shannon]

If this doesn't show you that TB is noob town, I don't know what will.

[shannon]

And if TB isn't scum then the team's shannon-Aero in which case we've already lost.

Dude that's totally not the team

[shannon]

How long do we have left?

[shannon]

Postie what are your thoughts on Aero now that he's hammered TB?

[shannon]

TB if you've got more detailed reads to give, now is the time. What about postie in particular deserves attention tomorrow?

[shannon]

No. I can easily see scum!ThinkBig realising he has nothing and just asking for tips for how to look town for next time.

He could have regurgitated other people's reads if he was that desperate, but he didn't. Considering all he has to do is provide a reads list, he could have almost certainly come of with something in order to save himself

Your scumteam if thinkbig's town is hilariously awful

Who's your scumteam pick at the moment?

[shannon]

Yeah I'm probably going to die tonight so LISTEN TO THIS SHIT TOWN

If thinkbig flips town (which I am more and more certain that he will), wyv is 100% the play tomorrow. No exceptions. If postie somehow manages to convince you otherwise then this town as a whole is straight garbage. If wyv flips scum, focus on postie. Her defense of wyv is awful, her thinkig push is awful.

Scum is most likely within Algebra/Wyv/Postie, most importantly DON'T LET WYVERN LIVE THROUGH TOMORROW.

Nah you're cool I reckon bro.

Wish you'd spoken up earlier though and helped Aero choose Wyvern today instead of TB, though. And I probably should've pushed for that, instead of questioning Postie. Aero, don't feel too bad about going 'fuck it' though, I can see how you got there and I probably would've done the same if Postie was nagging at me like that.

[shannon]

I don't understand that whole last sentence, but I get the vibe of it. Never mind TB.

[shannon]

Dammit.

VOTE: Postie

[shannon]

I'm putting all this in spoilers because it ends up being a giant huge post, but

@Aeronaut I'm reading back over the end of D1 and I can't see why exactly you changed from Wyvernite back to DH, besides pressure from Postie. In 367 Postie starts town reading you because you're coming back to DH, and you question that, but didn't it make you go hang on, why's Postie being so shifty?

I'd encourage everyone to look back to Aero's 368 as well. He's saying all the right things, but still voting the wrong way because Postie's got the pressure on. It's kind of interesting to me to see that experienced players aren't immune from this sort of overt manipulation.

Bye, Postie. Bye, Wyvern.

Spoiler:

Also the fact that Wyv is literally giving an opinion on every other player that's not the two viable lynches

This is good

VOTE: Wyvernite

Eh. I don't know.

I still don't have much from you why we should be voting TB? Besides "he is lurking" I feel. I'm going to need more than that.

I guess I do sort of get the viewpoint that between TB and Wyv, it will be at least easier to interact with Wyv tomorrow than TB who right now is a whole lot of nothing

Yeah.

UNVOTE:

Not only is wyv signifigantly scummier

I'm going to have to strongly disagree here.

but a TB lynch gives us next to nothing.

If we lynch him today and he flips scum:

• algebra is cleared
  
• we're left with a pool of 4 people to choose between to lynch, all of which are actively posting

If we lynch him today and he flips town:

• we eliminate an unknown who was going to be lynched eventually anyway
  
• we don't have to keep get frustrated over the fact that he's not doing anything

If we don't lynch him today:

• we'll likely have to decide whether to lynch between him or algebra tomorrow, and if we choose wrong we lose
  
  
• that's not a choice I trust town with please let's not go there guys

The bolded makes a lot of sense to me.

Excellent. Feeling better about townreading you.

Ok, first off, why does me agreeing with your point make me suddenly seem town to you?

1st Tier Lynchpool:

ThinkBig

⁴ /

shannon

⁴
2nd Tier Lynchpool:

Aeronaut

³
Townpool:

Dark Horse

¹ /

algebra

² /

Wyvernite

²

And you're saying I'm town, but I'm in your lynchpool.

What even are your points on shannon? I don't even remember you saying she's scum.

If wyv flips scum (which is what I'd suspect), then we'd have an extra mislynch. That scenario would also allow us to look at the possibility of algebra scum before a three man lylo, which sounds terrible

This is also a very, very good point.

If Wyvern is scum here he has zero understanding of basic scumplay and absolutely no common sense. Why isn't he trying to push through a lynch that isn't him? Why is he attacking some of the only people who stand any chance of being convinced to not lynch him?

That's indicative as scum, though, isn't it? Someone having nothing to base their arguments on so they just resort to defending themselves and not giving any real anything. At the very least, it's not town in any way.

He hasn't been pushing ThinkBig though. All he's done is expressed minor suspicion of him, and the same with algebra.

He has done absolutely nothing to try and make a lynch happen on either of them.

You understand that you're laying out a scum case, right? It's the

very fact

that he's talking and talking but saying a whole lot of nothing that should be raising red flags for you, but it isn't for some reason. I really don't understand.

Like, a townie is pushing for reads and trying to get somewhere, and you're literally admitting that Wyvern is doing the opposite of that. Why would you not be voting for him after recognizing this?

In addition to everything that put him in the spotlight, he's gone back to lurking while occasionally making a comment that he has no intention of following up. That's scummy as hell.

Yeah, honestly this.

Because he doesn't have to. Both of the lynches of substance behind them. Especially in the case of thinkbig's lynch, there's nothing he needs to do because of how hard you're gunning for it.

That's not how things were for the vast majority of the time he was sitting on his hands and letting things happen.

Again... sitting around and letting everyone else fight is exactly what scum does.

Yeah.

Intent to hammer

Honestly Postie, besides the argument that it's going to be hard to deal with TB and Algebra tomorrow, I really don't agree with most of your defense of Wyrv right now. And that argument doesn't even really hold up anymore, because TB is back here posting right now. W flip gives us far, far more information than a TB one does right now, especially if he's scum which I'm honestly becoming more and more sure he probably is.

In addition to that, how does sitting around and doing nothing = auto-town? It doesn't, that's how. And if it did, you could apply that same argument to ThinkBig, who also has sat around for the majority of the game and done nothing.

[shannon]

@shannon

- why are you voting me over Wyvern?

@Aero

- what's your read on me and how did you get from your initial heavy townread on me to where you are now?

Wait you're saying Postie was manipulating me?

I don't get that.

I'm voting Postie over Wyvern because I think that Postie is the one pulling the strings and Wyvern will flail without Postie.

Yep, Aero, I think Postie manipulated you. Whether or not Postie is scum, you were on the fence, you were doubting the vote, but you went through with it because Postie gave you (emotionally) no choice. I think that without Postie doing this stuff you would have voted Wyvern.

[shannon]

I don't like to give %s but the way you (Postie) came in to rescue Wyvern really got my heckles up. I also notice that you haven't issued a denial, you're just asking more questions.

Tinfoil theory: You were genuine in your read, Aero is scum, and pretended to be persuaded by it!

[shannon]

@Postie how are you feeling about a Wyvern lynch today?

[shannon]

I also notice that you haven't issued a denial,

I, Postie, solemnly swear I am not scum who worked to divert my partner's lynch on day 1 of Micro 657.

Better?

Oh, good oh, Postie is town then!

[shannon]

It's OK, you posted cute ice creams so it all works out

[shannon]

Aeronaut

[shannon]

Aero + Wyv?

Sure, why not? If Postie isn't doing the manipulating, then Aero capitulated waaaay too easily for someone who was up in the air about his decision.

[shannon]

Just saw Aero's most recent wall, looks towny enough that Postie is my sole focus in the firing line.

Wyvern, any comments from your end of things?

[shannon]

We've got heaps of time, no need to rush in

[shannon]

I do also note the request from our dearly departed that Wyvern be today's lynch, but whether that's a good read or not I'm not sure.

[shannon]

Just saw Aero's most recent wall, looks towny enough that Postie is my sole focus in the firing line.

Wyvern, any comments from your end of things?

@Postie - I don't think you and Aero are a team together, I think strongly that you are scum and less strongly that you're town and he's pulling the wool over my eyes. I was going to muck around pushing both of you but now I'm just on the Postie train to lynchtown.

[shannon]

I think strongly that you are scum and less strongly that you're town and he's pulling the wool over my eyes.

What makes you think that those are the only options?

Your outstanding tunnel D1 makes you a target in my eyes. You can't talk me out of it without a PR claim or a really really good case on someone else, so start working on that.

[shannon]

Am I correct that if we get it wrong today, that's game over? (I.e. we're 3:2 now?). I'd sure like to hear from some of our other players, it's starting to feel like a 2:1 lylo right now.

[shannon]

OK, let's wait and see what happens with Wyv's replacement.

Where's Algebra? I haven't seen a post from him either?

[shannon]

I'm done here. Need sleep. If I woke up tomorrow to find Aero had been quicklynched I would be okay with that.

To quicklynch we'd need a few more players participating...

[shannon]

Aero if you want Postie lynched tomorrow, why not just vote her today? I don't get why you're voting Wyv, who hasn't shown up yet? It's not going to do much in terms of pressure.

[shannon]

Because if I'm wrong, I don't want it to be that easy for scum to come in and quick hammer for the win.

I also want to hear from the replacement.

OK, so -

Aero is voting Wyvern
Aero is scum reading Postie, but doesn't want to vote her as it would make it too easy for scum to quick hammer her if he's wrong

Implied:

Aero is town reading me. (If he weren't, he'd think that I might be at risk of voting and quick hammering Wyvern, along with either Postie or Algebra as my partner)

Aero thinks Postie and I are not a team. (As above, we as a team might quick hammer his current vote, Wyvern)
Aero thinks Postie and Algebra are not a team. (As above, they might quick hammer Wyvern)

Aero thinks the team could be Wyvern + Algebra (No perceived risk of a scum quick hammer with his current vote, because ScumWyvern isn't going to hammer himself) or Wyvern + Postie (he has a scum read on Postie).



Yesterday, Postie had a strong town read on Algebra and Wyvern. She thought Aero and I were a team, and that Town wouldn't win if that's the case because no one will vote us off. If she's following Aero's line of reasoning, she's confident enough that the team is not Algebra + Wyvern (or one of those two and me) that she's voting Aero, despite it potentially offering them a quick hammer to win.

Yesterday, Postie was chief architect of a mislynch (which Aero caved in to at the last minute).

So here's where I'm at. I'm going to vote Aeronaut unless someone can convince me that Aero and Postie are not working together in a strategy of distancing and trying to generate compromise lynches. I'm going to give it until we hear from the replacement and Algebra, though, just to be fair. Postie, if you and Aero aren't the scum team, now is the time to convince me of it.

For now, UNVOTE:

[shannon]

I don't want to take unilateral action and ruin things for Town. I need to hear from the replacement player and from Algebra.

[shannon]

@Mod

could you please see what's up with Algebra too?

[shannon]

I mean town obviously.
Postie is confirmed town as she could have voted me, meaning only me and her can be scum if she is, and I could have voted you.

Uh and I also could have voted anyone at any point, so it's not me?

(PS - the post I quoted above came at 4:19 AM my time, so as you were waiting for me to 'post before someone else and not hammer', you kind of mistimed that as I was in ZazzzZzzz land)

[shannon]

Posties didn't vote me when I was at L1. So Postie scum means it has to be me as her scum buddy.
If I was her scum buddy I would now hammer you and win the game.
It is impossible for Postie to be scum here.

Does this apply to me as well?

[shannon]

I think Vedith is trying to convince you that you should vote Aero or me, because TB isn't scum.

[shannon]

Posties didn't vote me when I was at L1. So Postie scum means it has to be me as her scum buddy.
If I was her scum buddy I would now hammer you and win the game.
It is impossible for Postie to be scum here.

*Unless Postie and Aero are a team and Postie is bussing with her vote on Aero?

[shannon]

Dammit.

VOTE: Postie

Honestly fuck this

VOTE: Wyrv

And there it is.

See after how perfectly the nightkill fit into the Wyv/Postie scumteam narrative (DH ended the day with "lynch Wyv, then Postie if Wyv flips scum"), it was fairly obvious what argument scum were going to make today. shannon pushed the theory a little, but you, Aero...

Honestly, the fact that Wyrv has been absolutely silent today, mixed with the kill makes me feel like he makes the most sense to lynch today.

He's definitely scum. When he flips scum, please lynch Postie tomorrow.

Your line of thinking fits with the narrative that scum have tried to construct with the nightkill 100%.

VOTE: Aeronaut

Because if I'm wrong, I don't want it to be that easy for scum to come in and quick hammer for the win.

I also want to hear from the replacement.

Because if I'm wrong, I don't want it to be that easy for scum to come in and quick hammer for the win.

I also want to hear from the replacement.

OK, so -

Aero is voting Wyvern
Aero is scum reading Postie, but doesn't want to vote her as it would make it too easy for scum to quick hammer her if he's wrong

Implied:

Aero is town reading me. (If he weren't, he'd think that I might be at risk of voting and quick hammering Wyvern, along with either Postie or Algebra as my partner)

Aero thinks Postie and I are not a team. (As above, we as a team might quick hammer his current vote, Wyvern)
Aero thinks Postie and Algebra are not a team. (As above, they might quick hammer Wyvern)

Aero thinks the team could be Wyvern + Algebra (No perceived risk of a scum quick hammer with his current vote, because ScumWyvern isn't going to hammer himself) or Wyvern + Postie (he has a scum read on Postie).



Yesterday, Postie had a strong town read on Algebra and Wyvern. She thought Aero and I were a team, and that Town wouldn't win if that's the case because no one will vote us off. If she's following Aero's line of reasoning, she's confident enough that the team is not Algebra + Wyvern (or one of those two and me) that she's voting Aero, despite it potentially offering them a quick hammer to win.

Yesterday, Postie was chief architect of a mislynch (which Aero caved in to at the last minute).

So here's where I'm at. I'm going to vote Aeronaut unless someone can convince me that Aero and Postie are not working together in a strategy of distancing and trying to generate compromise lynches. I'm going to give it until we hear from the replacement and Algebra, though, just to be fair. Postie, if you and Aero aren't the scum team, now is the time to convince me of it.

For now, UNVOTE:

VOTE: Wyvernite
Scum team is in wyv aero Shannon

Vedith replaces Wyvernite!

Lets Celebrate! =D

VOTE: Aeronaut
fine then!

UNVOTE:

Wait what?

How are me and Shannon scum, but in your next post, postie is confscum?

I mean town obviously.
Postie is confirmed town as she could have voted me, meaning only me and her can be scum if she is, and I could have voted you.

That's all you had to add?
So Shannon and Alg have to be confirmed scum to Aero now
Aero has to be confirmed scum to Shannon
(In a town perspective on their own).

Why not?

You are obviously going to claim to be town, correct?
This means in your eyes there are 2 scum in me, Shannon and alg (Postie is proven town).
Now, me and Alg

CAN'T

be scum together in your eyes meaning that Shannon has to be scum to you.
I haven't lynched you, so I can't be scum as you town. That means that only Alg and Shannon can be scum to you.

Tell me again how that makes zero sense.

Now, with Shannon, she will also believe that scum is in me, you or Alg (Postie confirmed).
I haven't hammered, so me and Alg can't be scum together. This means you are confirmed scum in Shannon's eyes.

That only makes sense when you two aren't buddies

And you're buddies, like I said 100 times

VOTE: Vedith

This is a sure thing to me.

That only makes sense when you two aren't buddies

And you're buddies, like I said 100 times

You are at L1. If me and Postie are scum buddies, I can lynch you and we win the game.

I mean town obviously.
Postie is confirmed town as she could have voted me, meaning only me and her can be scum if she is, and I could have voted you.

Uh and I also could have voted anyone at any point, so it's not me?

(PS - the post I quoted above came at 4:19 AM my time, so as you were waiting for me to 'post before someone else and not hammer', you kind of mistimed that as I was in ZazzzZzzz land)

You didn't post when I had votes on me.
You are not clear.

OK, fair enough.

[shannon]

Ugh, sorry for that wall of crap, I forgot I had quotes saved and then I just tried to reply to one thing of Vedith's.

[shannon]

What I was going to post using the wall of crap posts is (and I was going to spoiler the posts)

527 - I put Postie at L-2
576 - Aero puts Wyv/Vedith at L-2
578 - Postie puts Aero at L-2
603 - I unvote, Postie now has no votes
613 - Algebra puts Wyv/Ved at L-1
620 - Algebra votes Aero to L-1 (change means wyv now L-2)
622 - Aero unvotes, Wyv/Ved now has no votes?
636 - Aero puts Vedith back at L-2

Is this right?

[shannon]

Well, it's plausible from your point of view. But that would also mean that Aero was pushing my lynch over others today where a mis lynch is what scum want.
He didn't unvote me until Alg did, and his unvote was obivously for credit. Just unlucky for them Shannon hadn't posted at the time.

The only scum teams it is possible to be
Aero / Me
Aero / Alg
Aero / Shannon

The way Wyvernite and Aero discussed to the way Aero and Shannon did is a big strong tell in itself too though.

But the main factor here... Shannon has shown willing to vote you today. If me and Aero were scum, I could have posted a bullshit case on you, push to vote you and even let Shannon believe I was bussing where Aero could then hammer.
Lets face it, these guys were never going to work out why you're confirmed town.

You misunderstand how my mind is working. I'm not voting Postie today, not because of your posts, but because Aero comes across as scummier. As I said, he was easily 'persuaded' by Postie at the end of D1, when he looked to be leaning one way on a lynch and went the other because of her arguments. I told him I thought she was manipulating him, and he denied it. If that's the case, then he made that choice all by himself and it came from a scum perspective.

As for Aero's partner? I don't know, we can figure that out tomorrow.

The only thing making me hesitate is that we might be wrong, and if we are it ends the game. I don't ever think it's a bad thing to take more time to think.

Another thing that just occurred to me - Are we sure this is a 2 person scum team? Newbie games are 7:2 and considered balanced with a max of 2 town PRs. If this is 5:2 and we've flipped a cop, we must have more power back there somewhere. Or - Is it possible that this is 6:1 and the scum has some kind of mechanic that helps? Like a dodge or something? IDK how this works but it seems weird that 7:2 and 5:2 could both be seen as balanced.

Additional thing: I've not been lynched and I'm not going to accept it tomorrow, Vedith, so you better night kill me now. Especially since the Cop wanted you to be today's lynch

[shannon]

Hah, TIL

[shannon]

That means clearing people as town when I'm scum isn't too bright btw.

And yet, I've seen scum do it. And he won, the bugger. Were you in that game? Your name is familiar, lemme go check

[shannon]

You were! http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=67016

[shannon]

That it's not unheard of for scum to clear town as a strategy.

[shannon]

I've got something else but I need to check with the mod if it's OK to say it x

[shannon]

Point being, I wouldn't put it past you.

[shannon]

Right, so where are we up to? I'm happy to see the back of Aeronaut, but I want Vedith gone tomorrow too.

[shannon]

VOTE: Aeronaut

Dude why drag it out all day with 'confirmed this' and 'unconfirmed that' if you're just gonna do that?

[shannon]

Asking questions doesn't mean I was pushing. Pushing is pushing. The reason I was asking whether there could be 1 scum, is unsurprisingly, because I wasn't sure about how the game balances. Check my join date, bro.

[shannon]

See this part in bold? This is what my push looks like. And what's more, it's bloody spot on. D1, Aero flip flopped his vote for town cred.

Here are the two possibilities as I see them:

1) Algebra is scum and has been coasting all game

2) Vedith is scum and for some reason decided to bus yesterday instead of looking for a mislynch to end it there. Besides some perverse motivation to win in 3P, I can't see a reason for his doing that.

Another thing to look at is the night kill. Why Postie? POE:

Scum kills me: no way will Vedith vote Postie, and vice versa. Algebra is toast

Scum kills Vedith: if he flips town, my doubts about his town case on Postie go away, Algebra is toast (unless he pulls out something big to get Postie to vote me, but that would look awful given his play so far this game)

Scum kills Algebra: Postie and Vedith would both vote me; but we know Postie is town now so that would make Vedith scum. But Vedith is the one who started the town case on Postie and who was really into the Aero lynch, so that makes 0 sense. (Again, why bus Aero when you could possibly mislynch me instead?)

Algebra killed Postie because it's all he could do. Unless Vedith is playing silly buggers (and arguably, it's against wincon to bus and extend a game when you could win it that day), it's gotta be Algebra.

Well, it's plausible from your point of view. But that would also mean that Aero was pushing my lynch over others today where a mis lynch is what scum want.
He didn't unvote me until Alg did, and his unvote was obivously for credit. Just unlucky for them Shannon hadn't posted at the time.

The only scum teams it is possible to be
Aero / Me
Aero / Alg
Aero / Shannon

The way Wyvernite and Aero discussed to the way Aero and Shannon did is a big strong tell in itself too though.

But the main factor here... Shannon has shown willing to vote you today. If me and Aero were scum, I could have posted a bullshit case on you, push to vote you and even let Shannon believe I was bussing where Aero could then hammer.
Lets face it, these guys were never going to work out why you're confirmed town.

You misunderstand how my mind is working. I'm not voting Postie today, not because of your posts, but because Aero comes across as scummier. As I said, he was easily 'persuaded' by Postie at the end of D1, when he looked to be leaning one way on a lynch and went the other because of her arguments. I told him I thought she was manipulating him, and he denied it. If that's the case, then he made that choice all by himself and it came from a scum perspective.

As for Aero's partner? I don't know, we can figure that out tomorrow.

The only thing making me hesitate is that we might be wrong, and if we are it ends the game. I don't ever think it's a bad thing to take more time to think.

Another thing that just occurred to me - Are we sure this is a 2 person scum team? Newbie games are 7:2 and considered balanced with a max of 2 town PRs. If this is 5:2 and we've flipped a cop, we must have more power back there somewhere. Or - Is it possible that this is 6:1 and the scum has some kind of mechanic that helps? Like a dodge or something? IDK how this works but it seems weird that 7:2 and 5:2 could both be seen as balanced.

Additional thing: I've not been lynched and I'm not going to accept it tomorrow, Vedith, so you better night kill me now. Especially since the Cop wanted you to be today's lynch

[shannon]

Algebra, I want you to vote me. Then I'm going to vote you, Vedith is going to hammer you, and a glorious town victory will ensue.

[shannon]

Dudes town just lost, I'm a VT. But one of you knew that anyway. *sigh*

[shannon]

So OK, game's over now, was I right? Algebra are you scum?

[shannon]

Just going to throw in a few for good measure.

[shannon]

Why on earth did you not lynch me yesterday then, instead of whatsisface?

[shannon]

I was going to vote Vedith, until shannon said she was going to vote me.

Yeah that's why you post and discuss and stuff instead of voting. See how I posted about voting you (and asked you to vote me first), instead of just voting? If I'd voted you outright, Vedith would have hammered you instead.

[shannon]

I am really kicking myself for second-guessing, in inverse proportion to how pleased I am that I called out Aero for his change of mind at the end of D1. Dammit, I even called you out Vedith for bussing, and your replies to that were so suspect I thought I *must* have been right. And then my mind started telling me no, come on, it can't be that easy ... Lesson learned, sometimes it *is* that easy. Congratulations on a great win!