Nahdia's Mini Normal Review

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Nahdia's Mini Normal Review

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Thu May 19, 2016 2:17 pm

Post by N »

Nahdia has a 12p mini normal to review. Please be aware all reviewers must pass the final version and this topic will be made public after the game has ended.

Reviewers: callforjudgement, Cogito Ergo Sum, mykonian

Nahdia wrote:hiya N!

I'll be ready as soon as I hit the top of the queue.
Currently my design is for 12 players.
No backup mod.
I don't have any on-site modding experience. Four games off-site.

Opening Post
(tried to put this and the rules in Spoiler Tags but Spoilers in Spoilers broke the formatting)

Welcome to Mini [GAME NUMBER]!


Player List:

Player 1
Player 2
Player 3
Player 4
Player 5
Player 6
Player 7
Player 8
Player 9
Player 10
Player 11
Player 12

* denotes a prod.


Spoiler: Alive

Spoiler: Dead


Spoiler: Events Log
Nothing has happened!

================================================
Rules Post


Rules & Mechanics

I reserve the right to modify these rules at any time. I will inform you if this happens during the course of the game.

Spoiler: The Usual (You've Probably Read This Before)
>
All site rules apply here.
>
No ciphers, encryption, extremely small text, or other similar tactics.
>
No quoting any private mod communication, including your role PM, or contents of private topics. You can paraphrase.
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If you have the ability to edit, please refrain from doing so.
>
Do not discuss this game outside game related threads while it is ongoing. This includes contacting players of the game via Private Messaging or other outside communication.
>
No angle shooting. Play in the spirit of the game. I shouldn't need to clarify this further.

Spoiler: My Rules (Please Read These)
>
My color is
#FF6FF2
. Don't use it, or any similar shade really.
>
I am fairly lenient and prefer not to intervene when things get heated in-game. There are however lines which should not be crossed. If you're not sure you would be allowed to say something, err on the side of caution.
>
When dealing with infractions or other problems, I will always seek the solution that is least invasive to the game state.
>
I prod after 48 hours of inactivity and begin seeking replacement after another 24 hours.
>
Please inform me directly of any V/LA.
>
If you have regular V/LA periods (such as being unavailable on weekends) please inform me pregame and I will take this into account.
>
Questions for me may be made either via PM or in the thread. If you ask a question in thread, please ensure you bold your question and begin with it with the tag "@mod" so I am more likely to notice it.
>
Votes will only count if they are placed on their own line (not in the middle/at the end of a paragraph) and not in spoiler/quote tags.

Spoiler: Setup & Mechanical Rules
>
This setup was reviewed for normalcy and balance by [REVIEWERS].
>
There are
9 town
and
3 mafia
aligned players.
>
By default, scum only possess night chat.
>
By default, scum players may use their role abilities and their factional kill on the same night.

Spoiler: Sample Role PM
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].
You are a
vanilla townie
.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one member of the town remains standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.

================================================
Role PM's:

Spoiler: Vanilla Townie
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].
You are a
vanilla townie
.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one member of the town remains standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Town 1-Shot Day Vigilante Revealer
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].
You are a
town 1-shot day vigilante revealer
.
Once per game, during the day phase only, you may select a player to kill. You will be revealed as responsible for the kill.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one member of the town remains standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Town Doctor
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].
You are a
town doctor
.
Each night, you may choose one player to protect from any killing actions for that phase.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one member of the town remains standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Town Motion Detector
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].
You are a
town motion detector
.
Each night, you may choose one player to check. You will be informed if you detected any motion (if they performed an action or if an action was performed on them) that night. Results come in the form of "Motion Detected", "No Motion Detected", or "No Result".
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one member of the town remains standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Mafia Encryptor
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].
You are a
mafia encyptor
. Your partners are [ROLEBLOCKER NAME], a
mafia roleblocker
, and [NEAPOLITAN NAME], a
mafia neopolitan
.
You and your partners may talk in your Private Topic during both the Day and Night phases. Your team also possess a factional kill which any of you may perform each night.
As long as you are alive, mafia members may make use of their Private Topic during the Day Phase in addition to the Night Phase.
You win when all non-mafia players are eliminated, or when nothing can prevent the same, and at least one member of the mafia is still standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Mafia Roleblocker
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].
You are a
mafia roleblocker
. Your partners are [NEAPOLITAN NAME], a
mafia neapolitan
, and [ENCRYPTOR NAME], a
mafia encryptor
.
You and your partners may talk in your Private Topic during both the Night phase. Your team also possess a factional kill which any of you may perform each night.
Each night, you may target a player and stop them from performing any night actions.
You win when all non-mafia players are eliminated, or when nothing can prevent the same, and at least one member of the mafia is still standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Mafia Neapolitan
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].

You are a
mafia neapolitan
. Your partners are [ENCYPTOR NAME], a
mafia encryptor
, and [ROLEBLOCKER NAME], a
mafia roleblocker
.
You and your partners may talk in your Private Topic during both the Night phase. Your team also possess a factional kill which any of you may perform each night.
Each night, you may target a player to find out if they are vanilla townie or not. Results come in the form of "Vanilla Townie", "Not Vanilla Townie", and "No Result".
You win when all non-mafia players are eliminated, or when nothing can prevent the same, and at least one member of the mafia is still standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.

================================================
Setup is
=TOWN=
1-Shot Day Vigilante Revealer
Doctor
Motion Detector
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
=SCUM=
Roleblocker
Neapolitan
Encryptor

Results are listed in the role PM's, but just to list them off again.

The Motion Detector gets "Motion Detected", "No Motion Detected", or "No Result".
The Neapolitan gets "Vanilla Townie", "Not Vanilla Townie", or "No Result".
Last edited by N on Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:48 pm

Post by Nahdia »

i made a typo in the mafia role PM's because i added the encryptor late.

also p aware it's scumsided rn but not sure if the solution is switching the Motion Detector to a more powerful role or adding another town PR or both.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:23 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

Oh wow, that's a lot more than just a little scumsided.

The normalcy is debatable here. I don't think your Day Vigilante Revealer needs the "Revealer" in the name; it's a common variant of Day Vigilante (one in which you have to make the post in-thread, which automatically reveals you as being responsible for the kill). The thing is, Day is not a whitelisted modifier, and as such it needs to be approved by the NRG as being within the "spirit of Normals" to be able to be run.

I should note that this discussion has come up before. Some members of the NRG are very much in favour of Day Vigilante (specifically) being permitted as a Normal role. Others, however, are against, and that includes me; especially as I'm one of the reviewers here, I'm one of the people you (and/or the other reviewers) will have to convince if you want to be able to run the role. I personally think that the role should be confined to Theme games, and doesn't have much of a place in a Normal. Part of the problem is that the mere possibility of a dayvig in a setup has a tendency to lead to annoying gambits day 1, and so is something that will potentially affect any Normal game, not just yours (if the role gets approved, I imagine people will try dayvig gambits in a lot more Normals). Part of the problem is that it interferes with the normal day/night cycle, which is something that Normals aren't supposed to do.

I have no other normalcy concerns; you seem to have no problem understanding action resolution or role wording. There are a few things missing from your ruleset that players would expect. One is deadline lengths, and what happens at deadline (I'd very much recommend "no lynch at deadline"). The other is voting/hammer rules; these work the same way in basically every Normal/Open on mafiascum.net, and thus experienced players can probably guess, but it's far from unheard of for a newbie to decide to play a Mini Normal as their first game, so it helps to explain it just in case someone's never seen them before. (You might also want to hyperlink the site rules; one thing I've discovered reviewing Normals is that many people, even those who meet Normal modding requirements, don't actually know where they are, and a link will help those people out.)

In terms of balance, the dayvig approximately cancels out the "missing" town member (this being 9:3 rather than the more usual 10:3), whilst confirming itself as town. So when determining balance, this setup can be considered much as a 10:3 with Innocent Child + Doctor + Motion Detector + 7 VT versus Roleblocker + Neapolitan + Encryptor. The thing is, that setup would be scumsided even if the scumteam were all Goons; Town simply don't have enough power to balance a 10:3 (or the corresponding 9:3). The Motion Detector is actually fairly strong for a Motion Detector in the setup, being able to detect two of the scum (and even the third if they target the Encryptor), but the problem is that a "motion" result is very weak as guilties go (it's trivially explainable away by the scum in question and can happen completely innocently to a VT), and a "no motion" result can still happen even to scum. (Note that a 1-shot nightvig is almost as strong as a 1-shot dayvig, and the presence of a Doctor makes the two roles even closer in power for reasons related to no-lynching at mylo, so until the normalcy's decided we can try to balance the setup around a 1-shot vig without having to worry about exactly what sort of vig it is.)

Given the amount of scum power we have here, I'd say that to balance this, town needs two power roles in place of the Motion Detector and one VT, each of which is by itself likely to gain information worth around the equivalent of 1 Cop investigation over the course of the game, taking into account the possibility that it dies or gets permanently blocked before any results can come out, and with the assumption that town roles can't confirm themselves purely with their claim (given the existence of a scum Neapolitan, it's very unlikely that town can confirm themselves in this way, as there are too many possibilities for which roles go on which teams). (You can't really balance the game without adding a power role because scum has both the ability to lock down the Motion Detector slot forever, and enough information to conclude that that's the correct strategy; with a Roleblocker on their team, a scumteam aware of theory should be looking for an investigative role that they can permalockdown, as permablocking ability is most commonly provided to the scum as a counter for an investigative role that would otherwise break the game for town if unchecked.) We can assume that in this setup, powerful investigative roles aren't going to live beyond day 4 or maybe 5 at the most before they get killed, permalocked by the scum, or disregarded because there's no time left to verify their claims (claiming a guilty on someone isn't exactly very convincing at lylo, because scum often do it in order to attempt to close out the game and try to "get in first" against a possible town claim). As such, the first change I'd like to recommend is to
replace the Motion Detector with a Follower
; it's a very similar role (both in terms of what it does and how often it's used), but substantially more powerful (because it gets a fairly reliable guilty on the scum who makes the kill).

This change isn't enough by itself; you'd want to add another town power role, and ideally one that doesn't care which scum makes the kill (because otherwise you run into the effect in which town's roles tend to be better late and thus town gets major advantages from lynching scum early compared to late and scum gets major advantages from identifying town PRs early compared to late, thus small early advantages tend to snowball, causing huge amounts of swing). The most obvious change that comes to mind for me here is to
add a 1-shot Gunsmith for town
; this setup looks pretty much tailor-made for it, as it naturally has a false-positive role (the Vigilante; this works rather better with a nightvig as a dayvig is as unlikely to be Gunsmithed as a Miller is to be Copped), and two other potentially Gunsmith-interactive roles elsewhere (the town Doctor, and the mafia Neapolitan who could be replaced by the equivalent Vanilla Cop). You might want to think about whether to give scum a Neapolitan or a Vanilla Cop; the two roles are identical in every way for scum even if you add a Gunsmith, but giving scum one or the other might influence what they claim. (In particular, scum might not realise that Vanilla Cop is an excellent Neapolitan fakeclaim for escaping a Gunsmith guilty, so this basically comes down to whether you want to support scum who aren't 100% brushed up on their theory or whether you want to punish scum who don't have all the theory worked out; this is basically a moderation style issue. Note that as you have an Encryptor, scum may be able to coach each other on the relevant theory if the situation comes up.)

My suggestions aren't the only way you could balance the setup; rather, they're one particular path you could take the setup down. If you have your own suggestions for balancing the setup, or other ideas about what you'd like to see, we can try to work with those instead, and most likely the other reviewers will have their own idea about how to balance the setup. (I think it's likely that someone will suggest reducing the amount of scum power; I considered this but it doesn't really seem to help balancing the setup based on the way that the other roles work out. Adding town power seemed to work better.)
scum
· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·
town
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:09 am

Post by mykonian »

I don't particulary mind the dayvig here. It figures as an innocent child and gets the game uneven again. For me it doesn't do all that much new, and it helps make your game.

With a doctor and an IC of sorts, that gives town 3 mislynches of sorts before lylo. I think scum get a little bit too much help taking out the IC though, I suspect you could choose there, the RB or the neapolitan. I don't know how to judge the value of the motion detector here, so I'd be with cfj that that could easily become something a little more substantial, though adding info roles to a doctor could quickly become problematic?

idk, those were my first thoughts.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:25 am

Post by Nahdia »

Thank you both for the quick feedback!

myko kind of saw what the idea behind the setup was; the faux-IC in the form of the dayvig and the doctor forcing scum to work around it. I understand the idea behind not wanting a dayvig. in the right hands a dayvig is really powerful role because it essentially acts as a doublelynch on d1. but more often than not someone just hipfires. What if I switched it to a standard 1-shot vigilante but made it an Innocent Child as well? are hybrid roles like that acceptable in Normal? I'm looking at the guidelines and it doesn't really say anything as far as I can see. maybe this is bad idea, just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. maybe adding IC to that is completely unnecessary.

Liking the idea of switching the Motion Detector for a Follower. A bit of clarification since I've never actually seen the role in play; possible results would be "Blocking", "Protective", "Jailkeeping", "Miscellaneous", "Killing", "Investigative", and "No Result"?
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:03 am

Post by mykonian »

yeah, that ic/vig role could work. It'd also be your one slot for roles that aren't strictly normal but have normal mechanics. And it might make cfj slightly less grumpy ;)

And I'm not sure what the result of a follower would be on a JK, but otherwise, yes, that's accurate.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:17 am

Post by Nahdia »

quick changelog so far.
RolesChanging Motion Detector to Follower

Role PM's
Spoiler: Mafia Neapolitan (just a typo fix)
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].

You are a
mafia neapolitan
. Your partners are [ENCYPTOR NAME], a
mafia encryptor
, and [ROLEBLOCKER NAME], a
mafia roleblocker
.
You and your partners may talk in your Private Topic during the Night phase. Your team also possess a factional kill which any of you may perform each night.
Each night, you may target a player to find out if they are vanilla townie or not. Results come in the form of "Vanilla Townie", "Not Vanilla Townie", and "No Result".
You win when all non-mafia players are eliminated, or when nothing can prevent the same, and at least one member of the mafia is still standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Mafia Roleblocker (just a typo fix)
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].
You are a
mafia roleblocker
. Your partners are [NEAPOLITAN NAME], a
mafia neapolitan
, and [ENCRYPTOR NAME], a
mafia encryptor
.
You and your partners may talk in your Private Topic during the Night phase. Your team also possess a factional kill which any of you may perform each night.
Each night, you may target a player and stop them from performing any night actions.
You win when all non-mafia players are eliminated, or when nothing can prevent the same, and at least one member of the mafia is still standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Mafia Encryptor (just a typo fix)
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].
You are a
mafia encyptor
. Your partners are [ROLEBLOCKER NAME], a
mafia roleblocker
, and [NEAPOLITAN NAME], a
mafia neopolitan
.
You and your partners may talk in your Private Topic Night phase. Your team also possess a factional kill which any of you may perform each night.
As long as you are alive, mafia members may make use of their Private Topic during the Day Phase in addition to the Night Phase.
You win when all non-mafia players are eliminated, or when nothing can prevent the same, and at least one member of the mafia is still standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Town Follower
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].
You are a
town follower
.
Each night, you may choose one player to check. You will be informed what type of action, if any, they performed that night. Possible results are "No Action", "Blocking", "Protective", "Jailkeeping", "Miscellaneous", "Killing", "Investigative", and "No Result".
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one member of the town remains standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.

Rules
Rules & Mechanics

I reserve the right to modify these rules at any time. I will inform you if this happens during the course of the game.

Spoiler: The Usual
>
All site rules apply here.
>
No ciphers, encryption, extremely small text, or other similar tactics.
>
No quoting any private mod communication, including your role PM, or contents of private topics. You can paraphrase.
>
If you have the ability to edit, please refrain from doing so.
>
Do not discuss this game outside game related threads while it is ongoing. This includes contacting players of the game via Private Messaging or other outside communication.
>
When dealing with infractions or other problems, I will always seek the solution that is least invasive to the game state. That said, infractions may result in anything from a warning to your slot being force replaced or you being modkilled, depending on the severity and nature of the offense.
>
No angle shooting. Play in the spirit of the game. I shouldn't need to clarify this further.

Spoiler: My Rules
>
My color is
#FF6FF2
. Don't use it, or any similar shade really.
>
I am fairly lenient and prefer not to intervene when things get heated in-game. There are however lines which should not be crossed. If you're not sure you would be allowed to say something, err on the side of caution.
>
Questions for me may be made either via PM or in the thread. If you ask a question in thread, please ensure you bold your question and begin with it with the tag "@mod" so I am more likely to notice it.
>
Please do not use provable randomness (such as the dice tag) in thread. You may SAY you used randomization, but not prove it.

Spoiler: Inactivity and V/LA (Vacation/Limited Access) Guidelines
>
I prod after 48 hours of inactivity and begin seeking replacement after another 24 hours.
>
If you receive three prods, I will immediately begin seeking replacement.
>
Please inform me
directly via PM
of any V/LA. If you don't do this, I'm not responsible if I didn't notice you're on V/LA and prod you during it.
>
If you have regular V/LA periods (such as being unavailable on weekends) please inform me pregame and I will take this into account.

Spoiler: Setup & Mechanical Rules
>
This setup was reviewed for normalcy and balance by callforjudgement, Cogito Ergo Sum, and mykonian.
>
There are
9 town
and
3 mafia
aligned players.
>
Day phases will be two weeks long. Night phases will be 48 hours long.
>
Extensions will be granted rarely, only to accommodate for replacements.
>
Lynches are based on majority. As soon as a majority of alive players votes for a single slot, they will immediately be lynched and the game will progress to the night phase.
>
If no majority is achieved by the end of a day phase, the vote will default to no lynch.
>
By default, scum only possess night chat.
>
By default, scum players may use their role abilities and their factional kill on the same night.
>
This game uses Natural Action Resolution.

Spoiler: Sample Role PM
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].
You are a
vanilla townie
.
You have no powers except your vote and your voice.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one member of the town remains standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.

A few restructuring things. Took called's suggestions for more detail for newer players into account. Added a couple things I realized I forgot but wanted to include.
mykonian wrote:yeah, that ic/vig role could work. It'd also be your one slot for roles that aren't strictly normal but have normal mechanics. And it might make cfj slightly less grumpy ;)

And I'm not sure what the result of a follower would be on a JK, but otherwise, yes, that's accurate.
yeah I'm not sure I just included "Jailkeeping" because it's listed as it's own type in Natural Action Resolution. if there's some better ruling I'll change that. Won't be directly relevant except for being complete in the role PM though, since no jailkeeper in this setup.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:23 am

Post by mykonian »

oh no, then you are right. I didn't look it up and didn't know it from the top of my head.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:03 am

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

In post 4, Nahdia wrote:Liking the idea of switching the Motion Detector for a Follower. A bit of clarification since I've never actually seen the role in play; possible results would be "Blocking", "Protective", "Jailkeeping", "Miscellaneous", "Killing", "Investigative", and "No Result"?
You need separate "Role investigative" and "Action investigative" results.

An IC 1-shot vig role would be fine.

In terms of balance, IC one-shot vig+Doctor+Follower isn't all that powerful, so having 3 scum PRs is definitely overkill. Having just the Neapolitan seems like it would be fine by me. Something like Odd-night roleblocker would also be fine.
Scumchat is awesome. Yarr!

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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:08 am

Post by mykonian »

^that's where I am.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:25 am

Post by Nahdia »

I think I ought to just take out the roleblocker. gives scum a bit too much counterplay.
RolesChanging 1-shot Dayvig Revealer to Innocent Child 1-Shot Vigilante
Changing Mafia Roleblocker to Mafia Goon

Role PM's
Spoiler: Mafia Neapolitan (to reflect new team)
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].

You are a
mafia neapolitan
. Your partners are [ENCYPTOR NAME], a
mafia encryptor
, and [GOON NAME], a
mafia goon
.
You and your partners may talk in your Private Topic during the Night phase. Your team also possess a factional kill which any of you may perform each night.
Each night, you may target a player to find out if they are vanilla townie or not. Results come in the form of "Vanilla Townie", "Not Vanilla Townie", and "No Result".
You win when all non-mafia players are eliminated, or when nothing can prevent the same, and at least one member of the mafia is still standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Mafia Goon
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].
You are a
mafia goon
. Your partners are [NEAPOLITAN NAME], a
mafia neapolitan
, and [ENCRYPTOR NAME], a
mafia encryptor
.
You and your partners may talk in your Private Topic during the Night phase. Your team also possess a factional kill which any of you may perform each night.
You win when all non-mafia players are eliminated, or when nothing can prevent the same, and at least one member of the mafia is still standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Mafia Encryptor (to reflect new team)
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].
You are a
mafia encyptor
. Your partners are [GOON NAME], a
mafia goon
, and [NEAPOLITAN NAME], a
mafia neopolitan
.
You and your partners may talk in your Private Topic Night phase. Your team also possess a factional kill which any of you may perform each night.
As long as you are alive, mafia members may make use of their Private Topic during the Day Phase in addition to the Night Phase.
You win when all non-mafia players are eliminated, or when nothing can prevent the same, and at least one member of the mafia is still standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Town Innocent Child 1-Shot Vigilante
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].
You are a
town innocent child 1-shot vigilante
.
You will be confirmed as town by the moderator at the start of the game.
Once per game, you may choose a player at night to kill.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one member of the town remains standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.

Spoiler: Town Follower (added Role vs Action investigative results)
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].
You are a
town follower
.
Each night, you may choose one player to check. You will be informed what type of action, if any, they performed that night. Possible results are "No Action", "Blocking", "Protective", "Jailkeeping", "Miscellaneous", "Killing", "Role Investigative", "Action Investigative", and "No Result".
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one member of the town remains standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.
thoughts? for now I have the Innocent Child modconfirmed at the start of the game, but I might change that to being a player-triggered action depending on your thoughts.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:34 am

Post by Nahdia »

if it still seems scumsided I might add like, a backup to the follower? though that has the unintended consequence of confirming the follower. I could make it an investigative backup maybe but that would make it too swingy if the Neapolitan gets lynched early. maybe a Voyeur.
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:36 am

Post by callforjudgement »

I have no objections to an IC 1-shot Vig. (Most likely for this setup it should use the day-1-reveal version of IC, which is equivalent to the day 1 reveal that a dayvig would have.) It probably won't make a huge difference whether the Vig is IC or not, as a Vig rarely has trouble confirming themselves via claiming their kill, but I think I prefer it with the IC to guard against the odds of town completely missing the idea behind the setup (or scum getting lucky night 1 and happening to kill the vig for reasons unrelated to power roles).

Follower on a Jailkeeper gives "Jailkeep". The full list of possible Follower results for a Normal is here. (CES is correct that "role investigation" and "action investigation" are separate categories. I'm not too fussed about the exact spelling of the categories, but we'd need to get the list right.)

I agree with the other reviewers that if town's power is the IC 1-shot Vig + Doctor + Follower, scum have too much power to compensate. I'm actually not entirely sure that this is balanced even with three Goons. Sure, town could play Follow the Follower, but even if town can ensure that all their power roles survive, they probably need the Doctor to save twice to avoid being at a disadvantage. This setup has more chance of two Doctor saves than most, but I still feel that the odds are rather against it. (I still like the version where the scumteam is powerful and town has extra power to compensate, but if you'd prefer a weaker scumteam and weaker town, it feels possible to make that work too. The town's going to need more than it has at the moment, though.)
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:40 am

Post by Nahdia »

i could also beef up the vig and make it non-con instead of 1-shot.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:42 am

Post by callforjudgement »

Actually, I guess what we need here is a town role that can be confirmed
by
the Follower, more than a town role that confirms the Follower. A full Neighbourizer has the advantages of a) being a fairly fun role, without being overly powerful; b) showing up as "Miscellaneous" to a Follower, something which doesn't outright prove Town status but does heavily imply it. The main issue here is that the Follower might die early. However, I expect the Neighbourizer to be eventually determined to be town via setup speculation, which makes it less of a problem, and it might give town the edge that they need.

PEDIT: An improved vig is an interesting idea here (non-con or odd-night will have very similar balance properties, although I think you have a good insight by making it non-con; vig is a role that often shouldn't shoot at every opportunity and non-con gives it a good reason not to). Let me think about this a bit more.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:55 am

Post by callforjudgement »

OK, so if the vig is non-consecutive and we have a vanilla scumteam, then assuming that the vig lives to an average of N3 or N4 and is not interfered with, the Doctor needs around a 50% chance of stopping a kill in order to balance the setup; assuming the vig lives to N5 or beyond, then the setup is townsided regardless of what the Doctor does. This is very encouraging because nothing's forcing us to have a vanilla scumteam here.

If scum have a Roleblocker (and no Neapolitan) then the game would be very much about identifying a town power role, but they probably wouldn't conclude that the Innocent Child would have a separate power role. Thus, we'd be looking at whether scum could find one of the other two power roles by N3 or so (wanting around a 50% chance for the setup to be balanced). This seems about right.

If scum have a Neapolitan (and no Roleblocker) then they'd be aiming to identify and NK the Doctor or Follower. They have maybe 5-6 chances to do so in a 13p player list, so I'd put the odds somewhere above 50-50 to pull this off. The counterpoint is that if town sees their role-investigative action, they're going to have to make something up or be caught at lylo (alternatively, they could just claim truthfully, which would be interesting but could lead to them having trouble explaining why the chose their targets). I'd assess this version of the setup as slightly scumsided, but am far from sure, and would likely defer to the judgement of the other reviewers if they disagreed with me on this. (You have to take various other things into account too, such as the odds of the Neapolitan getting lynched/vigged early, that make the calculation quite difficult.)
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:15 am

Post by Nahdia »

personally i like scum having way to hunt for the PRs without just using their wits and claim trolling. especially if I make the vig non-con, they need hunt the doctor reliably or they're liable to get rolled. so I favor keeping the Neapolitan over the Roleblocker. ofc it's possible the vig just ends up with bad reads and kills a bunch of town but i want scum to have a way to retaliate if the IC is good.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:35 am

Post by mykonian »

I was under the impression that you still wanted a 1 shot vig?
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:50 am

Post by Nahdia »

at least 1-shot. making it non-con is just an idea to give town more power if you still feel the setup is scumsided in it's current state.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:50 am

Post by Nahdia »

its* grammar is hard.
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:49 am

Post by callforjudgement »

I should point out (because many people don't realise it) that a town vig killing townies is normally a net benefit to town. They killed those players because they were scummy, so it makes them less likely to be mislynched, and it's better than mislynching them because scum don't get to respond by killing someone townish.

I'm not too upset with the IC nonconsecutive-night vig + doctor + follower + 6 VT versus neapolitan + goon + encryptor setup (that's pretty much yours). It's at least close to balanced; I'm not at all certain about it being scumsided. I guess that's the one we should be focusing on for the time being in terms of "trying to find one balanced setup that everyone is happy with".
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:18 pm

Post by Nahdia »

after thinking about it a bit more I think I like the idea of making the vig non-con so it can potentially be a factor late game as well.

Role PM
Spoiler: Town Innocent Child 1-Shot Vigilante
Welcome to Mini [NUMBER], [PLAYER NAME].

You are a
town innocent child non-consecutive night vigilante
.
You will be confirmed as town by the moderator at the start of the game.
Each night, you may target a player to kill them. You may not use this in consecutive night phases.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one member of the town remains standing.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm by responding to this PM with your alignment and role.


so rn the setup is
Innocent Child Non-Consecutive Night Vigilante
Doctor
Follower
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie

Neapolitan
Encryptor
Goon
thoughts as of right now?
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:18 pm

Post by Nahdia »

(forgot to change name in spoiler tag but the role PM is right)
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:41 pm

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

If you make the IC non-consecutive, I think you shouldn't reveal them at the start of the game. That probably leads to the doctor only ever making obvious protects and it'd make it relatively unlikely that town can get back to odds again after the vig kills twice. I'm not really fond of how much influence the IC would have on the game if he's revealed at the start and gets to kill multiple times.
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Sat Jun 04, 2016 12:28 am

Post by Nahdia »

that's a good point, it puts a lot of power in the hands of one player. If I moved it back to a 1-shot vig, is there anything else you might add to balance the scales?
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