Mission 2a - The Fire and Brimstone Job

[JaeReed]

I'm here.

Yeah that's why I didn't really want to disclose who I chose for the runs N1, scout. Let's do choice 2.

Moving to my computer once I get coffee. Are we all here? If we are we can quickly do this so we have time to discuss the offered rewards, then I'll give my reads along with what messages I got last night and a rundown of the N1 PT in more detail.

[JaeReed]

Gonna go ahead and vote this.

VOTE: Choice 2

[JaeReed]

Math is town. I trust them fully. I don't think the vig will go through. Scum will mess with it to get Math lynched.
Everything in drafting already had alignments and roles attached.
Math suggested 3 people to cop. 2 scumreads in Worldz and karnos, and one town read in Klingon as they thought since Klingon is lynchbait as town it'd benefit her to be confirmed. With the scumreads they said knowing Worldz alignment would be the most useful BUT they didn't think they could move past the karnos scumread either way. So they hinted very strongly that karnos was the better check without directly telling me what to do. I chose karnos because I'm that sure math is town that I felt we need to have their reads correct.

As I said, once we get through this mission I will give the full rundown of everything I know. This includes a lot of the setup spec you're engaging in. We asked a lot of questions N1.

[JaeReed]

JaeReed documented the comings and goings of people, while distributing free porn.

I am a champion of the people.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: observe

[JaeReed]

I'm not dying tonight. Firstly I'm too valuable to scum kept alive. Secondly math will be on me tonight.

[JaeReed]

Wat
Why are you valuable jae? You are obvtown
And how much did you exchange with mathblade that you thought it was a great idea to share your roles and stuff?

There are two people total who can escape from prison. I am one of those two.
Once two people have escaped from prison total, we gets flips from everyone we lynch.

Scum don't want me dead. They want me alive as I'm negative utility.

[JaeReed]

No Koggz couldn't escape after going in. They could voluntarily go in.

@Mod are only two people capable of escape from prison?

[JaeReed]

I thought N1 that Koggz was the person who could trigger the jail break, because she mentioned the jail break mechanic when no one but someone who had a role regarding it could have known of it.

[JaeReed]

Jae and i are extremely charismatic
You are okay-ish

So please, media.

And yes FA, but that means we have to lynch jae first
That gives little info
He can be killed while in jail i think
And it gives scum a free nightkill

When I use my escape ability it's instant. I can theoretically escape as soon as I'm lynched, then protectives or whatever can be on me.

[JaeReed]

no removing blockings is good

then mathblade will have no excuse tomorrow

if her vig failed dont tell announce this first , let her claim whatever she wanna and investigate the other adventure first.

Yeah roleblocking or redirects. Those are the two mechanics I can think of off the top of my head that can mess with the shot.

[JaeReed]

Idunno. Math is a jailkeeper of sorts. I'll go through last night's content now.

[JaeReed]

yeah that was my concern. I don't know if Math will live if they block scum. They said their reads need to be accurate or things could be bad. I assumed they were softing vig but then they sent me a message that night saying sorry if I had a night action but they chose to be on me because they thought grovyle and I were softing masons or something so they thought the night kill would be in one of us.

[JaeReed]

I'm really bad at summarizing so most of this might not be relevant to anything, sorry. I figured it was better to still have stuff in there if I'm unsure rather than potentially cut out something that could be alignment indicative.

Spoiler: page 1 of n1 mission

Math - how did RR get on mission?
why no matrix heavy person on bank robbing?

Me - I guess me claiming here now involves RR. I can escape from prison and it was hinted in my role pm that there could be a jail break. I think Koggz might be able to trigger it because they used the words jail break in the main thread. If I'm in prison during a jail break I have a 50% chance of death. If I'm still alive after that I can escape, so we need to lynch me for the flips.
I only took people I trusted so that I could claim. Nearly replaced Math with Yume but needed Math for spec on how best to use my role.
Scum dayvig makes sense if Koggz can jail break because town then would have me being able to escape prison and Koggz being able to break someone out. But Mcmenno saying you're going to be disappointed is tonally town to me.

Math - I don't want to lynch you so how do we jail you?

Me - Menno would have been able to but I don't trust him after that dayvig.

Math - If you go to prison you could sort menno/cowboy so Koggz can break out the correct person? Up to you.

Me - I'd have to have a correct read of menno/cowboy for that to work. I don't want the burden of doing that on my own but can try - at the very least it'll meet half the condition for us getting flips. You guys could push me hard and say I was scummy in here? That might help for VCA still so long as scum don't know the plan.

Math - If you don't want to do it then we don't do it.

RR - Claim of being able to infiltrate missions. Had varying degrees of town reads on all slots in the mission (cerb head)
Uncertain that if all parties capable of jail breaks are killed then we'd get flips.
Asked mod, if no one can escape then all jailed players flip. Is it worth it to put a townread in jail?
Asked mod more stuff. If all scum are jailed town wins immediately. Even if scum can cause a jailbreak and escape. Tinfoil hat theory of SC/Menno scum team where SC can cause jailbreak and they couldn't risk lynching them out of order. If true then they'll both likely escape N1.

Math - Jae & Koggz probably a counter to Menno. Don't think SC/Menno scum together, because half or more than half in prison D1 doesn't make sense.

Me - I used Jazz which Koggz sent me D1, so my decision as party leader tonight will be loud. Plan to send me to jail to sort Menno/SC is a good one but I am not confident in my ability to read people.

Spoiler: page 2

Me - If a jail break occurs while I'm in prison and I don't die then after the jail break I can still use my ability to escape. So I think only one person will escape with a jail break. So I think it's less plausible SC/Menno are scum together for RR's reasoning because I'm 1 of the 2 who can escape.

RR - That logic is flawed. Just because no more jailbreaks are possible after two people escape doesn't mean only two people total have the ability to escape. It's more likely that there are more than two because otherwise lynches won't reveal flips until really late. It might be a strong move to lynch you because your ability allows only you to escape but I don't want to lynch someone I don't think is scum. How would you sort Menno/SC? I disagree that they're probably not the same alignment. It's improbable they're both scum, possible 1 scum and 1 town, but also possible both town. If we ignore Menno's slip debacle. One shooting the other doesn't tell us much other than probably not both scum.

Math - What's everyone's strengths and top reads?

Me - @RR why so eager to push the idea more people can escape from jail? A maximum of two people can escape and I am one of the two. As for SC/Menno I'd look for SC's reaction to Menno sending him to prison since that would be most telling as to his alignment. Then the way they interact with each other.

RR - Rules don't say a maximum of 2 are CAPABLE of escaping jail.
I just don't want us making assumptions that aren't mod confirmed.
Asked for mod confirmation on prison escape mechanic, got answer that even if all abilities were pooled from every player there is no universe where more than 2 players could escape from prison after being involuntarily sent there.

Math - Normally I hate town blocks but this setup works nicely with them so maybe we should block?

Spoiler: page 3

Grovyle - Jae probably shouldn't have claimed here. Would they be more or less likely to get killed if someone here was scum?

Math - I agree about claiming but now it's about whether we all trust each other.

Grovyle - So Jae is essentially unlynchable town?
@Math I don't trust you enough to townblock with you and you don't like them, so why do you think we should? Just because Jae reads us all town doesn't mean I do.

Me - @Grovyle questioning if more or less likely to be killed. Less likely since we get flips sooner which maf don't want.

Math - @Grovyle fair enough. Townreading Jae and Grovyle, only person unsure on was RR but thinks what is in this thread is more likely to be town. Even if you don't trust me a neighbourhood is good because we can be transparent about reads.

Grovyle - Klingon made a good point about how in Bloodborne people townread Ranger because she was helpful in adventures.
The original dungeon leader there was scum which is why I pushed Jae at the start. Half the party was scum and the party blocked.

RR - @Math you're the only one I'm unsure of here. Your play seems plausible as either alignment. Jae was nulltown but his stuff in here pushed him up to actual town.

[JaeReed]

Spoiler: page 4

Grovyle - Was random chosen for stats? I have no read on him. Why D&D for lieutenant?

Me - Strongest townread I have is Grovyle. I had a gut unease about the party setups but went ahead with things because I didn't know whether it was to do with this party or the other one.
I put D&D as lieutenant because I found cakez outburst to be town, and also thought lilith would be most likely to factor in what the party wanted overall in case a tiebreaker came up. Mostly put Random in there because of stats.
Hoping the other party can get a read on Random.

Grovyle - Between the two rewards I suggest the public cop. I want it on SC.

Math - Cop either Menno/SC if we can.

Grovyle - Cop Cowboy please.

Spoiler: page 5

Math - Can we cop someone in prison? (mod answer is no)
Would have loved SC check. Maybe just put Mr. Johnson as Jae or Grovyle? That would be good also.

Me - What option do you guys want then?

Math - Either cop someone we all think is scum since we can't do SC, or Mr. Johnson as you/FB. FB doesn't trust me so I rather you two talk it through.

Drixx - I have to catch up since Cerb got replaced. Anything you want me to focus on, Math?

Math - The weird thing with FB at the start of D1, scum might have been pushing there. Jae giving me the ring and reactions to that. Menno killing SC and reactions to that. Better if you just read the thread though.

Grovyle - Inspector check instead then?

Math - @FB 925 from RR (cerb head) was overall nullscum. Do you want my opinion?

Grovyle - Checking someone in jail isn't a good use of a check. Check on Cowboy would be wasted. Math why not give your opinion? I don't think Jae should pick Mr Johnson.

Math - I want you to see I'm town. If I play like I normally do you'll think I'm scum. Because of what I am I can't afford the public townfirm or I'd be nightkilled the next night. I figured not saying anything about it would help you see I am transparent. I need you to see me as town because I am a PR that needs right reads.

Me - I thought maybe Vedith at one stage so I'll look at that again. In order of strength of townreads: Grovyle, Klingon, Math, D&D, Koggz, ABR, Drixx. Scumread on Karnos because he usually obvtowns and he hasn't this time. @Math oh that was a lot of my paranoia about you, so I guess it makes sense now.

Math - So Inspector, Vedith, Karnos?

Me - Math is same level read as Grovyle now. I was paranoid about you not being as stubborn as usual. Why did you claim?

Grovyle - Vedith good check. No read on him and the beginning sheep when we usually tunnel each other was odd. Could be lurkerish scum.
Math compromising is weird because it doesn't fit with either alignment for what I expect of them.

Me - @Math those are my pool, yeah, with Worldz added in. I don't know what to think of Random, Pere, and Yume. Yume usually gets replaced for inactivity as either alignment when I play with her, so her being active is new to me. Random is flying under the radar and I hope the other party manages to sort him. Pere is low content and I don't know how to get a read on him.

Grovyle - I don't think karnos is a good check, I think he's town. Sum up his meta? I only played with him once when he was scum and he was just there without doing anything. Here he seems involved and open to discuss.
@Jae regarding Yume her activity means she is likely town. Also that she outed which PT she's in, and the thing with Vedith makes her town.

Me - @Grovyle wrt Math. Them being compromising was holding me back from a full townread because I didn't know what to make of it. The explanation given here makes it make sense though.

Math - Karnos is scummy because I taught him how to play scum. He's repeating the same patterns but I'm worried I'm biased here. The way Karnos didn't answer my question doesn't sit right with me either. Vedith is a bad check. They're either town PR with inside knowledge of scum making stuff up. As soon as Cowboy went to prison they called them confscum. Also trolled at the beginning of the game. If we think Vedith is scum it's a good check but if we think they're town it's too risky. I might be paranoid. I want to check Inspector as he has equal chance as Karnos of being scum, but they aren't scum together. I would do karnos because I am biased and adjusting there would help. If we cop to townfirm it has to be someone who we think has a weak PR so scum won't kill them night after next. Or we just try to cop scum.

Me - @Grovyle wrt karnos. I feel like he's just there in this game without doing much. Usually as town he was aggressive and game advancing and something is missing from him this game. I'll double check his posts maybe I was just put off by him pushing mission theory.

Spoiler: page 6

Grovyle - His openness to talk about the other PT I thought was town but might be mistaken. I still feel it's different to his scumplay.

Math - Why do you townread Karnos? I guess we won't cop him because you are against it. Inspector is a good check if not karnos. Also wouldn't mind Worldz or Random.

Me - 389 from Karnos he already implied heavily that he thought SC was scum. He said Math was bussing if they're scum. There's something jarring here that doesn't sit right with me. 436 makes me want to cop him because if he's scum SC is town for sure. But the line about being obvious scum going for an easy town lynch rings town to me.
676 specifying town to play it smart pings me.
803 reads like he knows Menno is town.
803 tries to say Menno is jester then 842 is weird, and 844 doesn't seem like he's scumreading menno which is weird.

Math - can you do the same for the other top two people you want to check? Just posts that stick out to you?

Me - Vedith is the main one I need to check on. DM/scout I want to take a second look knowing it's scout because I didn't know who the S stood for earlier in the game and I do have some meta on him. I wish you didn't claim, Math.
ABR is my townread that could be scum. Mostly gut right now but I'm wary of townreads from gamestart that don't do anything more and ABR fits that.

Math - Yeah me too but it is important everyone trusts me. Do you and Fire have a townread on RR? This is important.
Linked scum PT from game with Karnos.
389 is either a setup or paranoia because I have bussed in some way in all my scumgames. One is scum trying to frame me as it's used to throw shade on grovyle for unvoting. Combined with 436 it's contradictory. First I am scum bussing Cowboy but then Cowboy is pushing a town lynch and he knows that's not how I work as scum. I agree with you on 803, if he genuinely thought it was a jester then why vote him? He can't be both jester and scum. Mentions every PT is open day and night.
Karnos is a good check to me without serious reasoning for him being town.
Maybe we can sort Drixx tonight so we know if we're all town?

Grovyle - No townread on Drixx.

Me - Not a strong townread on Drixx.

Math - Don't like the lurkfest and how they only ask me for my opinion.

Me - Math who do you think is most likely to be nightkilled and why? If we assume we're all town. Either we cop someone dubious to see if town or scum, or we use it on someone who will be the nightkill to ensure survival through the night. I am really tempted to use it on Drixx. I'm paranoid there. I think if any of us die tonight he'll be the first place we'll look anyway though given what was shared in here.

[JaeReed]

Spoiler: page 7

Me - Actually Vedith isn't that suspicious. Just the buddying up to FB in RVS. Out of my townreads I'd like confirm on ABR or Drixx. Maybe D&D. Out of scumreads karnos (tho I want to just trust fb), scout, worldz. Of nulls, Random. Maybe Koggz if I'm right about her being able to jail break because that could potentially be a scum role, but I like her for town with some level of confidence. Scout's 574 rubs me the wrong way for tone, but reads more like he's trying to position himself rather than sort people. Dislike the grovyle thing and think Vedith for blending in would have been the more sus thing. 600 reads as busywork. I had the first initial thought but realized it wouldn't really matter so NAI. Idunno, Math you said you needed correct reads. Who do you need to know alignment of to read the game properly?
903, 943, 949 the only posts from Worldz I think that could point to him being town. The ratio of posts I dislike compared to what I like is terrible. If we're not lynching me tomorrow I want him gone. Scout and Worldz both had bad reactions to Menno's slip. Karnos could go either way. I feel like as town here he'd be gunning after Menno though which leans closer to scum!Karnos.

Math - Regarding my who do you think will be nightkilled question: I can only answer that if we think we're all town. I think people accidentally softed. If scum see what I see then that's where they're going to shoot.

Me - Reads list.
{Math, grovyle}
{Yume, Klingon}
{D&D, Koggz}
{Drixx, ABR, Vedith}
{Random, Pere}
{scout}
{Worldz, karnos}
Top two tiers are high confidence. Top tier is immovable. Second is strong townreads with strong confidence.
Third tier is strong town leans I would be surprised at flipping scum. I want to watch their voting patterns though. D&D I have a habit of misreading the Cakez head. Haven't seen his townplay yet. Koggz is tonally town and found the content was decent from town pov, but haven't watched her as closely as I should.
4th tier RR had a lot of posts I thought he could make as either alignment. Low confidence nulltown. Vedith is nulltown because there's a few things that indicate gamesolving such as commenting on Yume posting, but I dislike the buddying of fb and feel like his posts could easily be from scum depending on how people flip. ABR should be higher but he's done nothing but tunnel D&D all through D1. If we're thinking of a save and confirm in my townreads this is best because if D&D is scum they were lieutenant of the other party and would have the reward and probably want ABR dead.
Random and Pere are null.
Scout has a scummy meta as town but a lot of his posts have me on edge. He doesn't seem as emotional as I expect. More a tonal thing. Town points for wanting Grovyle's read before RR gave it because it reads as town paranoia thinking fb is trying to see if he's mislynchable.
Talked about karnos and Worldz already. Only point in karnos favour is what fb said about him openly admitting to being able to read PTs.

Math - Vedith looks town except for that weird SC scumfirm comment. Makes me want the check far from him so scum don't kill him. We either cop to scumfirm a scumread or use it for the alignment of someone who we don't think is valuable. I don't know how you're townreading ABR. They're lurking and normally much more arrogant. Feels wrong. RR is a null. I keep finding scummy things but my gut says he's town. Some stuff during the day was good and other stuff wasn't.
Karnos I am not qualified to read due to bias. If it were my own check I'd do it here probably.
D&D for the townread safety route would be good. If we force the people tunneling them to switch we could get more reads out of that. Both you and grovyle are omitted from the townfirm for reasons I don't want to discuss with Drixx here.
Scout is either scum or apathetic town and I'm not sure we gain from copping him here. He was suspected EoD and will likely get pushed on tomorrow. I want to hit someone who would have a possibility of being aligned with scout if he's scum. Assuming he is, d2 turns into a forced bus which is harder to get reads from.
My preferences are Karnos, Klingon, Worldz. Karnos because of my bias, Klingon would benefit from a townfirm if town, Worldz would explain some of Menno interactions and be a help to know either way.
Worldz would help the game most if I can get over my bias, and you know that's hard for me. Knowing me I would waffle between karnos and worldz.

Me - Asked mod if the knowledge of them being immune to kills that night would be made public with the alignment. (Got affirmative answer)
Said I'm thinking of claiming to Koggz with a night message in case we go through with lynching me.
Said I might make the cop half an hour before night end. Pool for it being {ABR, D&D, Worldz, karnos}
Not copping Klingon because she's not in danger of being nightkilled as if town she's lynchbait and we can get a lot of information out of who pushes her. Scout probably falls under lynchbait so worth waiting there too. ABR will be pissed if I choose him and he's town, plus we can probably read him through the rest of his play if we get a D&D confirm either way. Worldz and karnos are both good choices because of the mcmenno thing.
Maybe I will cop 3-4 mins before daystart. Scum will probably want to kill as low info as possible so maybe copping to townfirm is bad, unless they found someone softing PR.

Math - Said that's what they were hinting at earlier when they didn't want to say who and why for the nightkills. They don't want to draw more attention to it in case Drixx is scum and I don't use the cop on the person Math thinks it will be.
Asked mod if I can submit to reveal 1 minute before night end. Mod confirmed I could.
Suggested a keyword if I decide to go through with the lynch me plan. Said it'll be hard since I am townread pretty hard by most people.

Me - Changed my mind about letting Koggz know. Had a strange feeling about it. Probably nothing but I'll play safer in case Drixx is town here.
With the addition of night messages it wouldn't be hard to get me lynched. 8 to lynch means 4 already if I use my night message for it. That gives scum room to hop on or stay off and if I escape quickly we can just reveal the reason.
If we're going ahead with it we need to decide now as I will have to message Koggz. If I'm right about her she might jail break to get me out since she's townreading me.

Math - I love the idea of trapping scum but we run the risk of trapping town as well. I don't like losing a scum lynch for a day either. I'll leave it up to you.

Spoiler: page 8

Me - Maybe D3 try to lynch me? If I have post during D2 with a strikethrough it means I want everyone here to consider it over N2.

Math - Went to sleep, woke for the daystart at 1am. Let's see who you picked.
When the flip didn't happen asked me to double check that I sent in the action.

[JaeReed]

My night messages were from Grovyle and Math.

From Grovyle: I was originally going to send a message to RR but rethought it because of the replacement plus this really should have been for you from the start as you're the stronger townread. I just thought you might get nightkilled. Didn't talk this through with hebi but I can neighborize players. Limited shots so I haven't done it yet. I have other stuff but wanted input on this one. I want to neighborize you, so crumb to me during the day who to put you with like "I want to focus more on this person" or something.

From Math: Hey with things the way they were in the mission PT and lack of Drixx townread I didn't want to claim any more than I had. If I jailkeep wrongly it could cause major issues. I picked you because of the PT, you used a day action, and are likely the NK. Had to guess which of you was more likely since you pretty much spilled that you and Grovyle are in a hood of some kind. Grovyle mentioning you escaping jail D1 and you claiming it confirms you two are talking. I didn't say anything with Drixx in the room, I'm sorry if you had a night action.

[JaeReed]

Ahhhh that was a lot of work. Next I'll give the reads list I gave to Math earlier in the thread so you guys don't have to cross reference.

128 for my thoughts on one prisoner. This points to where I said SC is town if Karnos is scum.
130 and 131 for my thoughts on the other. This points to where I said karnos was pushing Menno as though he actually thinks he's town and was trying to push the jester thing.
So I think both prisoners might be town based on karnos' actions. I also told them basically that I think Random might be town too. The frustrating thing there was that I couldn't get through a lynch on anyone that I actually wanted lynched because of ABR.

{Math, scout}
{Frozen Angel}
{Vedith, Pere, D&D, Worldz, Random}
{ABR}
{Klingon}
{karnos}

This is the reads list Math would likely be thinking I have. I have a few changes currently though. I'll do that now.

[JaeReed]

{Math, scout, FA} - this is the tier I don't think will ever flip scum.
{SC} - Unlikely to be scum based on karnos' play.
{Menno, Worldz, Pere} - See above, but less certain here.
{Random} - Looked through Random's ISO near the hammer and didn't actually look that bad to me.
{D&D} - Between D&D/Pere there is scum I think. Which means I need to re-evaluate D&D to see if I still think they're town (in which case Pere takes this slot).
{Klingon, ABR, House} - I need to think about all of these slots. I don't think Klingon/ABR are scum together, and I don't think ABR/House are scum together. I do think there has to be one scum between ABR/House.
{karnos} - confscum

[JaeReed]

I have my doubts about ABR and the message thingi as well and I don't like the way my questions got ignored becuase I wasn't around before the night end. I want to sort my asteral fellows as well PV seems really helpful and freindly and generally ok in that private topic but out of it he didn't do so much.

With regards to this... Klingon is sticking to a townread because ABR said he sent a message to Drixx and she thought he wouldn't send a message to him if he was going to kill him. There's no guarantee that the message was actually intended for Drixx though, as you pointed out. Or at least I don't think Klingon confirmed that it was mod confirmed that the message wasn't intended for her. I find it really odd that she could get someone else's message too.

That's already a really iffy reason to townread someone, but then ABR returns the townread seemingly based off Klingon claiming to have received his message and confirming it with the phrases they had, which I found really weird?

[JaeReed]

I beleive all the game roles started naturally and litterally every role can be town or scum and there is no witght in claims by themselves.

Alignments were attached to the roles in drafting, not to the players I think.

-im tired of the karnos discussion as thats a horse beaten to death already. We'll see about that tomorrow, but i actually believe in mathblade being town. House is just tunneling for some reason.

Drixx joined matrix and karnos was aware since he can read pt's
Although it makes little sense to let vigs guess if they can see who is in the pt's...

Math is town regardless of whether Karnos flips I think. House, ABR, and Klingon pushing Math makes it more likely there's one scum at least in that group. Maybe two.
That very last bit about vigs being able to read PTs and see who is in there is kinda correct. Why would you have it be specifically so that you have to specify which PT it takes place in if you're not going to leave them to guess who is still in the PTs? Which makes Karnos' claim to have killed Drixx kinda sus.

- I think math vig shot is not proving anything about mathblade being town. looking at her closely she was on SC pushers who changed direction toward MC right after the unexplained vig eventhough she must know that is not making MC scum by itself. I expect more deducting from her. plus she suggested karnoos as secondary option but was against it a bit (the impact I got from jaread explanations) - I think she suggested hi but wanted the other suggestion copped even though she was calling karnoos scum on day 1 but never pushed him. Plus she delayed a confirmed scum lynch with a baseless inventor vig(?) which is when the outed scum claimed vig for no reason to make us think the scum vig will die with him (? or was it real).

I can see a clear attempt for gaining tones of town cred for a vig shot which is might just be scum suicide at this point cuase Karnoos is a publickly confirmed scum. plus that "not lynch , let u vig him" thing allows karnoos to use his action tonight which if he is really the spy one , he can use his abilities to determine asteral members current position to use another on target vig shot (which I made sure this will get confirmed tomorrow if happens with a plan explained in my message which I will send to one of you two)

- MC was a day vig of some kind and scum posses two killing abilities. thats all we saw so far so I'm going to assume its the case.(as I said I know there are multiple kills each night according to the wording of my role pm) so I don't beleive it was one shot matrix vig only. there must be something against asteral and maybe even the people in neither.

Math wasn't pushing for a karnos vig though, they wanted karnos lynched because he's confscum. It was the rest of us that urged Math to use the vig on karnos because we wanted to be sure with the flip.

As far as Karnos' vig claim it seems most likely that he's the "eyes" for scum and someone else in the team is the vig. So there'll probably be another 2 kills from scum at night I think? Then Math's kill if it goes through.

There was 0 reason for karnoos to claim the vig shot considering they have day chat as well

This is a plan obviously and a wifom going on

This is what I'm thinking about that, yeah.

The vig was done because karnos could jailbreak (we still dont know how it works) so we just decided that mathblade should ue the gun tonight, sinc it completely kills karnos AND we get a flip.

is this karnoos claim as well?

so during day 2 he claimed : matrix vig , pt spies jailbreaker

this won't add up I'm sure there is a reason and a plan for him.

another possibility : he is the asteral vig as well and he wanted to live till tonight to use that vig shot as well.

Nah karnos didn't claim to be able to escape, but we don't know if scum do have the ability to get one of their buddies out of jail so we went with the vig.

[JaeReed]

actually Jaread confirm that you didn't join any regions for the night. this way I will guarantee that you will live tonight . assuming inter is town we might prevent the night kill cuase your a logical choice for them.

I didn't join any regions.

If i were scum i wouldnt kill jaereed because hes a key flip
His death would change a lot of reads imo (most likely on math-abr-worldz)
I would go for low info flips like klingon, house, worldz to some extent

And since yume very obviously softed doc twice or so, i wonder why you are still alive.

How would my death change reads on Math, ABR, Worldz?
And yeah I thought Math was talking about Yume in the first mission when she said someone softed. Guess not though, was just a really off theory about me and FB.

if PV is town he is in danger of asteral kill as well. house push on math means they will keep both math and house (and prob abr alive) if all three are town. I have no read on house and a little bit scum read on vedith. I didn't like his activity on day 1 , his trolling and the way he reacted to MC vig.

Your thoughts on Vedith line up almost completely with what Math thought about him N1. Why do you think PV will be vigged if scum can vig in astral? I feel like they might see him as mislynchable.

I say it here because i trust you and jae
I trust math as well
Pv and abr but less

I dont trust house
I dont trust klingon
And i DEFINITELY dont trust worldz

I don't trust Worldz because he's refused to do anything but whine the whole game and try to push his "townslip", which could just be bad scum. That said, karnos would have to be bussing before he even knew he was being copped, which doesn't fit for me.

they will probably sabotage an adventure and kill in the other so I want to wait till I see how stuff will go through

Looks like ours wasn't sabotaged. If your theory is right we're kinda screwed.

I think pv and abr are both town and they will be kept alive if they are
I think house could be scum but mathblade is a possible mislynch in the near future so he will likely live if hes town as well
If pv/mathblade/jaereed/you are scum, which i doubt, i wont die either because ive been pretty much been hard defending them

Klingon is a no info kill
Worldz is mislynchable if hes town, and if abr is scum hes just a pawn that can be kept alive

You are a doc and dangerous for scum so you are the most viable kill for acum again

I think PV will be kept alive because he's mislynchable.
ABR will be kept alive because he's tunneling on Math, but I was careful to try to keep my reads away from the main thread since I started thinking he might be scum for it. So there's hopefully a small chance the kill goes to him for being widely townread.
Math will be kept alive I think yeah, because as you said, mislynchable. House is probably scum, which makes ABR town because I don't think they'd both push Math like that as a team.
You might be the nightkill because you looked really town D2 and I think you've been doing a good job at identifying town and trying to keep them from being lynched. I'd imagine that would be frustrating for scum.
Klingon is mislynchable if town so I don't think she'll be killed even for a no info kill.
Point on Worldz & also FA I agree with.

I'm not dying tonight. Firstly I'm too valuable to scum kept alive. Secondly math will be on me tonight.

To expand on this: I don't know for sure that Math will be jailkeeping me but I'd say it's a safe bet considering I'm their strongest townread and they might be thinking I'm the most likely nightkill target tonight again.

[JaeReed]

Do you think scum can sabotage a mission they are not on?
I think that both of you are town and we passed the first part already

I doubt this mission will be messed with, but we'll see.

I honestly don't think scum can sabotage a mission they're not on, but the 2nd party N1 said their mission was sabotaged and they didn't think scum needed to be on the run to sabotage it.

but ehh I see. its reasonable to assume they needed to be on the mission for sabotaging.

D&D was on that mission hmmm

why people has town reads on D&D?

I was making an iso table of events which is halfway complete , I cant see any alignemnet indicative anything from D&D

The AtE from cakez plus how reasonable both heads were with regards to karnos. There's a possibility for me to be reading them wrong.

Spoiler: buncha quotes

I don't like the way people changed their targets in 180 oposite direction there.

I don't know SC alignment but I think there is obvious scum in the sudden MC pushers.

Possibly yes

I think there was scum on both
Not neccesarily the same scum

think about it

SC was already dead , what was easier than to blame MC and get the killer killed as well knowing their flip will remain secret. the reasoning for stop the wagon on SC were all BS , and scumreading a day vig for not annoucing the shot before doing it seems easy and opportunistic

Karnos , mathblade and D&D voted SC and beside D&D both stoppoed it so sudden so soon after joining there. (math never voted or just casted doubt? I need to recheck this)

mathblade was on of the people who voted MC right after the vig shot in the wave of angry blood thirsty voters

I'll reread the SC/McMenno thing with this in mind.

I dont know...
There is so much that makes me believe math is town

There is less that makes me believe d&d is

So far there is more that makes him town than scum imo.

This is where I'm at, though.

KC needs to die though , lurking is her scum meta

and pushing making no sense directions. it might seem innocent but her fangs bite

Agreed with this.

I assume math cleared herself to jaread last night so I want to trust jaread on reading her.

can you two please tell me your top three desire for protection tonight?

You now know everything that happened last night. Thoughts on Math now?
Honestly I think scum will shoot scout or you. I assume you can't protect yourself so:

Scout
PV
D&D
maybe? I don't think scum will shoot me. (If I die tonight I'm gonna look really stupid post-game for this)

We can all claim if you want.

I think I've revealed everything about my role. I just have the ring that I gave to Math and the jail escape.

oh btw pv was not lieing about the abr leaving time issues. his "I guessed flavor will be like that" seems really scummy. why he didn't tell anyone else about his flavor guess.

Agreed on it being potentially scummy. The weak reasoning suggests he knew what happened to Drixx before Karnos claimed it.

[JaeReed]

actually this means your role is not negative utility AT ALL. its the thing that might release the game from the current situation ; if you die we loose our chance for triggering it.

It's negative utility because we lose a lynch on scum in order to trigger it imo.

I agreed , I guess that vig might be able to shoot in jail as well. (regional limited)

maybe the different regions vigs are in different people hands.

Scum can night kill in jail, I think?

[JaeReed]

@Jaread what do you think? what is the similarities and differences between this operation and the one you did night 1?

Flavor is always good If you're asking about the options thing that's pretty standard to get two options, yeah. Seems to have both the clever way of doing it or the brute force way? We did a lot of charming, analyzing type stuff N1 and then escaped using magic.

[JaeReed]

We cant shut down kills because mathblade vigging karnos

I hope scum doesnt have day chat tbh, that gives them a lot of power

I think they might based on the miscellaneous thing that FA pointed out.

We could shut down all blocking abilities

no removing blockings is good

then mathblade will have no excuse tomorrow

if her vig failed dont tell announce this first , let her claim whatever she wanna and investigate the other adventure first.

This is somewhat a good idea though I think. Even with Math's jailkeeping thing. I have a theory about that anyways. I was thinking there's a possibility no one gave Math a gun, and that was them soft claiming another ability of theirs? If that's the case then the jailkeep wouldn't be used tonight. But that's just a theory I have.

We need protection
Oh and jae, if we choose to block blocking, send mathblade a message. They shouldnt be assuming they found scum if they jailed someone and a kill didnt go through

I dont think im aware of other roles to send it to, but i doubt we have a jk and a rb

Yeah I don't think both exist. If we end up ruling out blocking then we need to go with FA's thing if karnos doesn't flip. Which means Math can't know that roleblocking has been blocked. I suppose saying something was done specifically about jailkeepers last night to them might work?

But you aren't, grovyle didn't flip mason.

Yeah Math was wrong in the theory there.

So
Blocking blocking:
+ scum cant block math kill or other protown abilities
- math cant jailkeep so we effectively lose 2 way protection
Blocking redirection:
+its likely only scum would have redirector, so we are only likely blocking scum
- the odds of there being a redirector are rather low in comparation to roleblocker


For me either is okay
I think the doc part of jk being blocked is rather negative
But do we want to possibly waste this ability?

Ok so what I'm thinking are roles that could affect the karnos vig:
Doctor
Bulletproof
Bodyguard
Redirector
Roleblocker
Jailkeeper

Anything else? I think shutting down roleblockers or redirectors tonight are ok choices.
We can rule out Jailkeeper as something that will mess with Math's shot. Also can rule out Doctor as that is FA. Which leaves BP, Bodyguard, Redirector, Roleblocker? Bodyguard would be terrible to be used on confscum so I don't think even if they have one they'd use it here, because it just guarantees an extra scum loss. So I think it's between bulletproof, redirector, roleblocker. I don't think bulletproof would be something karnos would be given the rest of his abilities he's claimed so far (being the bounty, seeing all PTs, and possibly the 1 shot matrix vig which is probably a lie). So yeah, redirector or roleblocker.

If you're right in that a scum!Math here would shoot elsewhere, the claim would be redirected. If scum have either a redirector or roleblocker and this is town!Math then they're gonna use it on them to mess with the shot for sure. Roleblocker I think is less likely to exist in a setup with a jailkeeper but then we're playing "outguess the mod" so idunno.

In your place I'd probably flip a coin. Shutting down the redirector possibility is good, but if we're wrong in the spec that rb wouldn't exist with jk then we miss out on karnos' flip. At least shutting down redirector would make it guaranteed that the shot is going to karnos so there's less chance of town dying unless Math is scum?

[JaeReed]

....Sorry. I've caught up and said all I wanted to say now >.<

[JaeReed]

Was i lynchbait because i wasnt emotional enough D1? Wow.
Thing about me is that i always get emotional when im angry, and thats when im pushed for shit reasoning or when other people do stupid things and refuse to change their behaviour. I think i did pretty much okay without that much emotion in hunger games...
And i really didnt trust everyone townreading grovyle.

My role is not important so ill just claim
I am a voyeur, which is often used as a scum role, which is why i could agree with FA's setupspec
N1 i targeted worldz because i didnt trust him but he only got the bounty
But i realized its a stupid idea to target people you dont trust so i think ill target mathblade to see if anyone messes with their shot

Well I was likely to push on you based on your tone being so different, but what made you lynchbait was more that you were running counter to popular opinion (grovyle is an example of that).

Watching math is actually a really good idea. You might want to check with the mod whether blocking redirects means the visit won't happen.

[JaeReed]

"Strongest townread I have is Grovyle." can you confirm if this was mathblade perspective at the end of day 1 as well (in game?) or should I check that as well ... :~

why your read on scout changed from scummy to town? I am trying to follow your thought process , I'm not discussing my own reads atm.

Math didn't seem to put reads in the main thread near the end of the day, but earlier they gave a townread on grovyle due to Firebringer's postings being similar to yuri mafia (which we'd all recently finished and were all town in).

A question : people got their alignments after the drafting phase or before that?

After. Or more specifically, the alignments were assigned to the roles. So people when choosing their roles were also choosing their alignments. That's my understanding of it. Feel free to ask for mod clarification on that.

Spoiler: kc/abr message spec quote

I asked some questions before the night start which klingon nor abr answered. If I died please continue my thought process.

Abr messaging Drixx if ABR is scum can only be because they have the ability which copied the message to klingon which makes no sense cuase then they knew their killing drixx and he won't be able to confirm that message anyway. this means we have three objects here :

Object A : Klingonsent : who claims her role has nothing to do with the message but she recived it anyway
Object B : the one who is responsible for thr message to be copied
Object C : ABR : who is the message sender.

so its eaither A lieing and klingon is spy who can read messages (used that to make her look good to ABR) or some shit like that
or C is lieing and ABR sent that message to klingon in first place for making absoloute wifom and to look townish.
or both are telling the truth and B is conftown for not using their ability to gain the messages for themselves (or an scumbuddy)

I don't beleive B exists myself cuase then B is a message redirector (who change all the sent messages to someone to another) then klingon should have recived my slot message to drixx as well which she never mentioned.

so obvious and first geture of this looks like there is a scum in KC / ABR

my slot message to Drixx has a role claim but no signature. I will send a copy of that to the one who I'm sending my own message tonight. push kc enough to claim if she recived any other messages that night or last night and get this matter resolved even if I wasn't alive anymore.

Noted.

I can't figure out why Klingon would lie about it being related to her role as either alignment. A message redirector would have to know Drixx is dying so I don't think they're conftown for sending the message to Klingon (there's still a chance that Klingon and whoever is the redirector are on a team together and Klingon claimed for wifom and to look town since both she and ABR were pushing math). That will get cleared up after knowing if she received any other messages N1 though I think.

yep I expect 3 night kills (me among them)

its eaither this or the vise versa (he is the vig and someone else is the eyes).

I'm sure the extra kill was limited on matrix region. thats why I believe tonights extra will be on asteral. anyway if 3 kills happen math is pretty much conftown

so eaither pv + karnos + a night kill or me + karnos + a night kill or 2 kills.

if neither me or pv dies and there were still 2 scum kills + math ; math is conftown scum probably has no asteral or matrix vig anymore so the pts must be safe from killings (if a spy flips then it will be safe from that as well) and they can be used for making blocks coordinating adventures and stuff

I think it's more likely that he's the eyes as he claimed D1 to be able to see the PTs, with a bit of flavor added in, and D2 he waited ages before claiming to have killed Drixx. It feels like if anything the vig claim would be the cover up for someone else and the seeing PTs the real claim.

Which PT was PV in? Can people rejoin PTs whenever they want if they leave?

I like to know if we would get other prizes if we were choosing other options and doing this differently but that doesn't matter at all. we can assume its eaither way. I just like to know if scum could sabotage this after reciveing the prize or not

and the way the flavor is written is making me nervous. we disabled aztech's mass regional tracker poison. if that was really a thing in the game and we deactivated it this means scum really needed to sabotage that particular misson for enableing something or preventing disabling of some ability of them.

Oh, I don't think the options we choose in the adventure matter beyond what kind of flavor we get. The rewards seem tied to the adventures themselves. Scum can't sabotage after receiving the prize, to my knowledge. I don't think the flavor was meant to be read into that much. The thing that gets me is in the first bit, where it said that we were doing it without aztech's knowledge

or so we think

. Which makes me wonder if scum really can read all this.

As far as I know scum sabotage the rolls for the adventure's success when they sabotage the mission.

But i think redirecting could be better
We have an extra heal which is rather important and useful, in a 12 player game 2 protectives are really strong
And if mathblade shoots someone else they cant lie about being redirected

Yeah that last bit is really important I think.

[JaeReed]

why your read on scout changed from scummy to town? I am trying to follow your thought process , I'm not discussing my own reads atm.

Forgot to answer this. His tone fell more in line with the edge I expect from him, but also the whiteknighting of his townreads seemed town to me, and he said a lot of things that I was thinking but didn't end up saying in thread, so mind meld. Specifically in the way he was analyzing things and pushing people to answer for their reads. The fact that he didn't just sheep a townread, stuff like that was what made him such a strong townread for me D2.

Unless you wanted me to point out posts? I could probably do that but would prefer not to because I am lazy.

[JaeReed]

Karnoos can't reach night 3. jail him if the vig shot failed. This is not a joke. a confscum must be removed from the game asap. jailed is similar to dead in most cases. if he ran away kill him again. but eleminate him from the game asap cuase he isusing his ability whatever it is.

If all scum are jailed then town wins. So yeah we need to make sure he gets jailed if he's still alive.

Okay
I will block something and i wont message it

For 100% safety measures i wont say which one, but its either blocking or redirecting.
Okay?

Yeah don't say anything for certain here. I'm now absolutely certain scum is reading this.

oh i lost the main point. I like to know jaread idea about this way of hiding it.

You mean the coding? I don't think it matters. That code was too easy to crack anyway, I think. Plus I'm now sure scum are reading here...

What will be the course of action tomorrow?

Btw im rereading stuff, you gotta look at how klingon jumps on the math wagon D2
Its terrible

Course of action tomorrow depends on flips tonight. If Karnos is still alive, we lynch him and get claims as to why. If Karnos is dead then we lynch in {D&D, House, Klingon} I think.

Thanks
Mine is in the main thread but ill update it if you want

If there aren't any major updates that will be game changing if you don't get them out before dying then I suggest not to.

It doesn't make sense unless scum messed with it

Or they had a critical glitch

Jaereed: do you know anything about this? Youve done another mission as well so maybe you have an idea

if its similar to sabotaging and tomorrow starts without house voting D&D and D&D voting house I bet you both are scum.

PV was the leader so I'm sure this is eaither

1 ) related to the prize itself
2 ) is D&D action (cuase he was in the last sabotaged mission as well)

It's not related to the prize I think. The only person who can choose the prize and what happens with it is the party leader. D&D is now very likely to be scum as they've been on two missions which were sabotaged (I'm assuming this was a critical glitch).
I actually agree that D&D and House should both come into the day crossvoting. Especially if they were informed in their adventure that scum sabotaged the mission again. At the very least House should be voting D&D.

@mod what happens if a lieutenant is jailed before the mission is over?
What happens if a lieutenant is jailed after a mission is over, but before submitting which prize to choose?

[JaeReed]

I will heal in jaread , pv tonight. and don't send it to me cause I'm very probably dead tomorrow.

I guess the other adventure put pv in prison

The timing of this was too suspicious. Scum are reading this PT.

[JaeReed]

no I bet to you that both of them (house and D&D) are scum

and it makes sense.

killing party leader is bold move. the way they react to it and their explanation matters .

I mean if there is one scum in that party who made that move its D&D cuase he was in the same party which their mission got sabotoged but house must see that.

If that kill wasn't something flavor/adventure related they were watching that adventure(for sure) , were inside it (for like 80%) and had the majority there : 2 scum in there (30%) and decided to destory the one who has the prize and completly silent whoever town had access to that topic (cuase it was only one people)

House D&D scum makes sense depending on what might happen ; That Pv death was really really dark and twisted

Oh I should have read ahead before commenting on that, basically this is what I was thinking.

Maybe

But just wait and hear their explanation
Your theory has a lot of guessing

Nonetheless this makes me doubt my D&D read

I mean a lot of it depends on how things went down so yeah, but if at least House doesn't have strong suspicion of D&D after that then I don't think he could be town. And D&D is more likely scum because this is the second time they've been on a run that seems to have had something go wrong.

I've also got some questions about D&D's mission and the prize for that. I asked them what they wanted to do with that prize - I guess that can be used any night because it's an effect for the whole game?

It could be useful for late game, when for example all roles with high charisma are dead, you can ban a mission with likely a lot of charisma
Its by far not as strong as this reward or the public cop but it can help a bit i guess

Did they ever mention what the other choice for the reward was? I don't remember.
Thinking about it, that reward is too weak comparatively speaking. It also doesn't add up with the timing for the rewards we've had so far (as in I think most things have to be used that night as far as rewards go).
My mission N1 had the choice of giving Mr. Johnson to a player (who then can not be party leader or lieutenant), or a public cop which made that person unable to die that night. Both had to be used that night, to my knowledge (didn't check on Mr. Johnson choice but the public cop definitely had to be used that night).
This mission had the choice of shutting one person out of all day PTs or blocking all actions of one type for the night. We know the blocking thing has to be used tonight.

@mod does the PT choice also have a time limit for usage? As in, does it have to be used tonight or it's forfeited?

I believe jaereed said that they were notified after their first choice that scum made it harder

But they succeeded anyway and got a reward

It could be that this time they sent the party leader to jail (which is susp bc people wanted abr there)
Or that they made it harder and PV glitched

That seems the most logical imo

It was someone in the second party that said they were notified after that scum made it harder. Both choices here for what happened are possible. If both {D&D, House} are scum then I think it's a critical glitch caused by scum messing with rolls and has nothing to do with what FA said, but if not and scum actually jailed PV then scum are reading this PT.

it they couldn't sabotage the main mission that night so "It was neccessorry for them to be on the mission for doing it"

that means math is more likly towntown and there is scum in D&D , ABR , randomidget

Yeah that's my theory.

[JaeReed]

Sorry for the walling. You guys tend to be awake while I'm asleep.