Open 713: Jungle Republic [Game Over]

[Beefster]

I wouldn't be caught dead using wolf as a general term for scum

wilky killed TGP hunting for mafia, now he's deflecting

Oops. Didn't notice you answered my question before asking it.

[Beefster]

Also, I realized that kill associations would imply wolf in this game, so it's not necessarily scummy to faction-hunt in this particular case.

I will agree that wilky's opening comment is fishy. Fishy enough to vote? For now.

VOTE: wilky

[skitter30]

I'll send you my regards from behind the grave when you finally manage to lynch me. I won't be nearly as nice though. I already have to deal with one moron who is SRing me from the previous game still, and I really am close to exploding in a real rampage. Don't let the act fool you. I'm not as calm as I'm trying to sound here.

In sum: If you're Town.. buzz off. If you're Scum.. still BUZZ OFF!

a) I'm not scumreading you from the previous game? That has nothing to do with it, and you're the one who keeps on bringing it up. (I referenced it wrt to my Montosh read but that game has literally nothing to do with how I'm reading you here)

b) I read this bit after I wrote the rest of this post about your other points. I don't want to provoke you or anything, but I think you're scum. This quote sounds to me like you're likely to rage at me for scumreading you and I don't really know how to respond to that given that I'm just trying to play the game. I don't *think* I've done anything out of line? And if I have, I apologize.

I guess if reading the rest of this post, wherein I respond to your last post, is going to bother you that much, then skip it? Idk. Like I can stop talking to you about it if doing so is going to annoy you, but that isn't going to change my opinion or stop me from trying to lynch you.

--------

Now that you're telling me they're not qualified to meta you I take it back.

Yeah I realized after I wrote that that I shouldn't have included that lol, cuz I just handed you an out. My thoughts on the subject should have been clear from my posts yesterday, but meh.

I'll do that once everybody has weighed in for D2

Not really sure why you need to wait for that, but fine, I'll ask again then.

First: This assumes I'm scum with Thor.

Yes, that's what I'm assuming.

Second: Even if we were, we would have had a 7 in 10 or 7 in 9 chance Fanta was flipping TOWN (depending on whether you think we're WWs or Mafia), so "tying you to Fanta" seems ridiculous for Scum to do.

Yeah, but you were trying to lynch them so you thought you were flipping scum. The fact that they in fact flipped town doesn't change the fact that you thought they were flipping scum before the flip happened.

Unless you're saying you thought they were going to flip town yesterday?

Like this point basically states that scum knew that Fanta had a high chance of flipping town (and thus they wouldn't have tried to make partner-cases), but it's multiball and from the way you were pushing for their lynch yesterday it's apparent you thought they were flipping scum.

[mutantdevle]

Votecount 2.1

(3)

wilky - voted by: Not_Mafia, Almost50, Beefster.

(2)

Almost50 - voted by: Espeonage, skitter30.

(1)

LaserGuy - voted by: Montosh.

(4)

Not voting: wilky, LaserGuy, Thor665, Korina.

With 10 players alive, 6 votes are needed for a majority. Only 5 votes are needed for a no lynch.

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2018-03-17 11:30:00)

[Montosh]

So Paradox, after his short argument with Thor, spent most of the game on wilky, then switching to A50 for a while and then finally Fanta near the end of the day. This suggests some possibilities to me:

1) WW aren't worried about reducing the pool of people on the Fanta wagon. This suggests that they weren't on that wagon, and that it was consequently more mafia-backed.

2) wilky and A50 to a lesser extent would need to be pretty bold as WW to take Paradox out. That doesn't preclude them being mafia obviously.

I know I might be over analysing night kills here but I'm also just laying out my thoughts for later, especially when we have more info. WW could have also killed him just because his death would give the least info in terms of interactions. Even if that was a reason however, I don't think it makes the above irrelevant to the thought process.

[wilky]

I wouldn't be caught dead using wolf as a general term for scum

wilky killed TGP hunting for mafia, now he's deflecting

Why would WW's be going after mafia N1?

Well, I'm not gonna argue much more. I had wilky pegged for a WW by the end of D1 anyway. I just can't get over my paranoia of having missed something obvious.

VOTE: wilky

Fancy explaining how you had me pegged as ww? And if you had me pegged as ww why would you hop onto the wagon I started?

-> I wanted you to say you townread me. I don't really think that your read on me is sincere in any case, nor do I think that Fanta is qualified to meta me, but if it means you'll stop making bad pushes/votes on me, I"ll take it.

I don't "Town read" you. I'm sheeping a flipped Townie's read who claimed they can read you better. Now that you're telling me they're not qualified to meta you I take it back.

So that's how easy it is to change your reads just tell you that you or the person who said it aren't qualified?

[Thor665]

Skitter is, once again, creating a case based around calling scumhunting scummy. Even in the theory world where A50 and I are scum - she's accusing us of thinking;

That Fanta was scum.

VOTE: Skitter

[Almost50]

I'm not scumreading you from the previous game?

I wasn't referring to you with that!

ESPEONAGE is the one who is SRing me from the previous game and is carrying it on into this one, and I neither was scum back then nor am I scum in here, but he still doesn't realize it's a play style thing.

Yeah, but you were trying to lynch them so you thought you were flipping scum. The fact that they in fact flipped town doesn't change the fact that you thought they were flipping scum before the flip happened.

Unless you're saying you thought they were going to flip town yesterday?

Again, you're confused and getting me confused.

1- If I'm Scum, I would have expected Fanta to flip Town more than I would have expected him to be Scum (the 7 in 9/10 thing)

2- Since I'm Town I was expecting him to flip Scum (it was 5 in 12 for me if I disregarded anything else, but with a few TRs excluded it was more like 5 in 8. which is by far better odds that what Scum would have had pushing the slot).

3- Now here's the trick: If I was Scum; the from (1) you know I wasn't trying to line you up for the next lynch because I would have expected Fanta to flip Town, but since I'm Town I was only going to lynch you if Fanta did flip Scum because I figured you would be their p, and since they flipped Town I concede that I was wrong in linking you to them and I have to work with the newly gained info.

Where you got it messed up is assuming Scum!me (who is assumed to be scum with Thor) were pushing on a SCUM lynch. If that was the case (me & Thor are scum) then it figures we were pushing for a TOWN lynch, because he Town is the bigger faction at the start of the game. But then that would mean I already knew (or very much expected) Fanta to flip TOWN, and linking you to them the way I did would have extremely dumb, because it would make you a MUCH HARDER lynch today, whereas as Scum my goal would be to make it EASIER to get you lynched.

Now why would I want you lynched if I were Scum? Simple. I already had a SR on you so it would've been easy to keep that independent from the Fanta flip. It would have been much easier for me than to be required to reevaluate on everything based on one flip (the TGP flip doesn't count bc I had a Town lean there anyway).

Town!me though doesn't want to lynch you for the sake of lynching you. I only wanted to lynch you because I thought you were scum with Fanta (and my scum hunting usually does include calling out the entire scum team on D1 and working off that).

Also, I apologize myself on the mini-outburst directed your way. It actually has nothing to do with you in person, but more to do with the globally floating idea all over MS that A50 is good at being scum "so he must've rolled scum here". EVERY SINGLE GAME I play of late I get SR'd by most of the players. It used to be only those who played me for the first time (my play style somehow alarms them), but it's now catching up to those who have played with me before as well for the reason fore-mentioned. I very much play my Town games to either survive or get NK'd. I don't like to be mislynched because then I would have failed to fulfil my duty, which is to eat a bullet for the Town (and in this game in particular where we are severely deprived of night powers).

[Almost50]

Fancy explaining how you had me pegged as ww? And if you had me pegged as ww why would you hop onto the wagon I started?

I did because I did, and it's documented in my D1 posts (towards the end), so please go do some reading.

As for why I joined the wagon on Fanta, it's because I thought they were Mafia, and didn't care whether we lynch Mafia or WW. We are required to eliminate both factions, so I'll gladly take a lynch on ant scum there is.

[Almost50]

So that's how easy it is to change your reads just tell you that you or the person who said it aren't qualified?

And this is why you are scum (among other things). OF COURSE if I'm "sheeping" someone on a TOWN READ of theirs that is BASED ON META, and the subject of that TR declares them unqualified to meta them then I will drop the TR. I would have liked your exclamation MUCH BETTER if I had actually kept the TR intact and to came to ask why if Skitter herself said Fanta were unqualified to meta her. THAT would have made sense.

[wilky]

Fancy explaining how you had me pegged as ww? And if you had me pegged as ww why would you hop onto the wagon I started?

I did because I did, and it's documented in my D1 posts (towards the end), so please go do some reading.

As for why I joined the wagon on Fanta, it's because I thought they were Mafia, and didn't care whether we lynch Mafia or WW. We are required to eliminate both factions, so I'll gladly take a lynch on ant scum there is.

OK.. Mafia team is likely Fanta/Skitter/Korina. WWs are probably wilky/Laser. Game solved.

So i've just iso'd you and this is the only time you refer to me as ww and no reasoning around it either, so again fancy giving me some reasons?

[wilky]

So that's how easy it is to change your reads just tell you that you or the person who said it aren't qualified?

And this is why you are scum (among other things). OF COURSE if I'm "sheeping" someone on a TOWN READ of theirs that is BASED ON META, and the subject of that TR declares them unqualified to meta them then I will drop the TR. I would have liked your exclamation MUCH BETTER if I had actually kept the TR intact and to came to ask why if Skitter herself said Fanta were unqualified to meta her. THAT would have made sense.

How does Skitter know that they're not qualified to do a meta read though? There is such a thing as reading game you're not involved in...

[Almost50]

How does Skitter know that they're not qualified to do a meta read though? There is such a thing as reading game you're not involved in...

STOP POSTURING! If Skitter says they're unqualified they are UNqualified. Why would Skitter play down a TOWN READ on her? And -more importantly- what IS the point of your argument in this post, or even the previous one or the one preceding? What new material are you bringing into the game? Why shouldn't I be voting you? Who should I be voting instead? Why?? That's the kind of thing Town!You would be bringing, but Scum!You seems incapable of.

[wilky]

How does Skitter know that they're not qualified to do a meta read though? There is such a thing as reading game you're not involved in...

STOP POSTURING! If Skitter says they're unqualified they are UNqualified. Why would Skitter play down a TOWN READ on her? And -more importantly- what IS the point of your argument in this post, or even the previous one or the one preceding? What new material are you bringing into the game? Why shouldn't I be voting you? Who should I be voting instead? Why?? That's the kind of thing Town!You would be bringing, but Scum!You seems incapable of.

The point of the posts are so that I can sort you better... So will you provide reasons on why I am specifically a werewolf??

Until then
VOTE: A50

[Almost50]

How does Skitter know that they're not qualified to do a meta read though? There is such a thing as reading game you're not involved in...

STOP POSTURING! If Skitter says they're unqualified they are UNqualified. Why would Skitter play down a TOWN READ on her? And -more importantly- what IS the point of your argument in this post, or even the previous one or the one preceding? What new material are you bringing into the game? Why shouldn't I be voting you? Who should I be voting instead? Why?? That's the kind of thing Town!You would be bringing, but Scum!You seems incapable of.

The point of the posts are so that I can sort you better... So will you provide reasons on why I am specifically a werewolf??

Until then
VOTE: A50

You mean you're voting me BEFORE you sort me? And you have yet to sort me when we have had a WHOLE GAME DAY to do so?

[Not_Mafia]

How does Skitter know that they're not qualified to do a meta read though? There is such a thing as reading game you're not involved in...

STOP POSTURING! If Skitter says they're unqualified they are UNqualified. Why would Skitter play down a TOWN READ on her? And -more importantly- what IS the point of your argument in this post, or even the previous one or the one preceding? What new material are you bringing into the game? Why shouldn't I be voting you? Who should I be voting instead? Why?? That's the kind of thing Town!You would be bringing, but Scum!You seems incapable of.

The point of the posts are so that I can sort you better... So will you provide reasons on why I am specifically a werewolf??

Until then
VOTE: A50

lol this is so scum

[Korina]

NM, are you a lyncher with Wilky as your target? Why are you death-tunneling him?

[Not_Mafia]

Because he's scum

[Korina]

Are you sure you’re not a lyncher?

[Not_Mafia]

I'm a lyncher on scum

[Almost50]

@Korina: Are you serious? Have you read the setup??

[skitter30]

1) WW aren't worried about reducing the pool of people on the Fanta wagon. This suggests that they weren't on that wagon, and that it was consequently more mafia-backed.

I think that nka is a very useful tool and I think that this is a point worth considering; there probably was at most ww on the fanta wagon then (as you're saying, if they were both on the wagon, killing on the wagon would be an odd move).

Skitter is, once again, creating a case based around calling scumhunting scummy. Even in the theory world where A50 and I are scum - she's accusing us of thinking;

That Fanta was scum.

VOTE: Skitter

No, I'm accusing you of chaining lynches based on that assumption. I don't really have a problem with you thinking that Fanta was scum; I thought the same thing. I have a problem with you setting me up as a partner pre-flip (and then not even reconsidering given the townflip)

Also is tunneling me all you're going to do or .... ?

Where you got it messed up is assuming Scum!me (who is assumed to be scum with Thor) were pushing on a SCUM lynch.

Yes, I'm assuming that scum!you was pushing on what you believed to be an opposing-scum-lynch. Scum!you also has to find scum so idk why you're acting like scum!you would assume that Fanta was town and not consider scum!fanta as a serious possibility.

but since I'm Town I was only going to lynch you if Fanta did flip Scum because I figured you would be their p,

Your scumread on me predated the fanta thing and was initially largely independent of Fanta (it only became about Fanta when I voted thor instead of Fanta yesterday) so saying you only wanted to lynch me if Fanta flipped scum is kinda disingenuous.

Also quotes like these make me feel like you're talking to me as if you think I'm town (since you're saying you now don't want to lynch me since they flipped town), which is weird because you're making a whole thing about how you don't.

But then that would mean I already knew (or very much expected) Fanta to flip TOWN, and linking you to them the way I did would have extremely dumb, because it would make you a MUCH HARDER lynch today, whereas as Scum my goal would be to make it EASIER to get you lynched.

Right, and that's why I think you were expecting a scumflip because linking me to someone you think is flipping town is a really idiotic thing to do.

We're both saying you expected a scumflip. You're saying you're town who expected a scumflip, which is why it's OK that you were linking me as a partner, as that's what town do when they find scum. I'm saying I think you're scum who expected an opposing-team-scumflip, and that you were going to build on your existing scumread of me and the scumflip to push for my lynch today. And when Fanta flipped town it kinda threw a wrench in this plan and made me a lot harder for you to push. Basically I fundementally disagree with the premise that scum!you was expecting a town!fanta flip.

Also, I apologize myself on the mini-outburst directed your way.

All's good!

How does Skitter know that they're not qualified to do a meta read though? There is such a thing as reading game you're not involved in...

Idk, someone saying they think I match my town-meta to a T when I've never played with them is a little weird.

The point of the posts are so that I can sort you better... So will you provide reasons on why I am specifically a werewolf??

Until then
VOTE: A50

I don't really like this vote. It's like ultimatum-y and I feel like you're using it as a reason to vote-park on an already existing wagon.

[Almost50]

@skitter: Do you think I'm a WW or Mafia?? Because..

- If I'm a WW I DO NOT CARE whether we lynch Town or Mafia. For the WWs the Mafia are just 3 other Townies (or rather 3 other VTs) because the Mafia has no NK.

- If I'm a Mafioso the pushing a WW on D1 gets me shot at night. The Mafia do not want to antagonise/provocate the WW at early game.

So, if I'm Scum (as either alignment) I would have been expecting a TOWN flip from Fanta, and thus NOT lining up a lynch on you.

Town!Me though

would

be lining up your lynch if Fanta flipped Scum 10 times out of 10.

Q: Have you ever rolled Scum in multi-ball before? If so how did the game go? I ask because it's now looking like you have no idea how to play scum in a game with multiple scum factions. Either that or you do and you genuinely believe I'm town here and still pushing me because you're scum playing it safe 9and I can't decide between the two options to be honest).

As for not wanting to lynch you, there's this thing called reevaluation. I did a full read on D1 and concluded your were Mafia with X & Y. X got lynched and flipped Town, so I was wrong on the team. I could still be right on one (or even both) of the remaining candidates, but then I have not much faith in those reads anymore. I'd rather lynch a WW today and hope we can catch the other one tomorrow (by association or with a Seer guilty), which will turn this into a nightless game. If the WWs are gone we have no use for the Seer checks anymore and nobody else has night actions, so the game goes on immediately after a flip AND (and this is the best part) lynching is the only way someone dies, so that would be good for town (but probably also for Mafia, which is why I wanted to lynch a Mafioso on D1, get the WWs to shoot another Mafioso based on associative tells, which would have pit us at 7v2v1 today)

[Almost50]

I also find amazing that we keep on taking bouts at each other and nobody ever cares to intervene. The most that people have done is pop on, place a vote and take a nose dive into oblivion. It looks like both Scum factions are happy with the status quo and want it to go on and on and on. Did you ever consider that possibility??

[Korina]

@Korina: Are you serious? Have you read the setup??

Are you serious? Do you understand what a joke is?