Mini 2039: uPicketyPicketyPick Mafia Endgame

[Nibbui]

If the winner isn't announced I dunno about trying to let Kokichi win. Even if he wins first, we'll not know it and it'll probably only cause confusion.

[Varsoon]

I'm hard against policy lynching people because they want to play the game the moderator designed.
If the mod intended for us to all just play this around Kokichi winning every minigame and upgrading roles, then he would've just made Kokichi's role an inventor/enabler type rather than design the public minigame mechanic.

[mutantdevle]

So are we all in agreement I should win so I can unlock someone who we TR role?

Uhh, I'm kinda against this tbh. I was going to take a break from mafia due to stuff going on in my life but decided to sign up to this game because I really liked the idea of 3 picks and having to complete challenges to get your other 2. So I'm definitely going to be participating in each and every minigame and trying to win as many as possible because that's what I signed up for (not to mention that I REALLY like the flavour of what I've chosen). On top of that, there are mechanical reasons not to do this too. You could very well be scum with this role. You could easily get away with unlocking the ability for a scum buddy as, even if either of you flipped, it would be pure WIFOM of whether or not you used it on scum or town. Besides, every single one of us can achieve the same thing as you just by winning 2 minigames. The difference there would be that we know our own alignments. I think the only way I'd really be okay with just handing you a free minigame win is if you were mechanically confirmed town. But even then, I'd still have problems with it because I do just want to play these minis

[mutantdevle]

The trouble with this is I dont think theres anyone who's very much townread at this stage in the game

Agreed. In particular, there's nobody that I currently town read enough to warrant wanting them to win instead of myself.

[mutantdevle]

The problem then is that if hes scum he'll empower a scumbuddy I guess..but that seems a bit unlikely because it's too obvious? Doing that would give us a 2fer1 if kokichi flips scum.

If kokichi flips scum, then what? Do we just lynch who they empowered just because that's what happened? And if the person Kokichi empowers flips scum, do we just lynch Kokichi because they got unlucky with who they chose? Any decent mafia could easily prevent either of those lynches so I think it would be super easy for a scum!kokichi to empower a scumbuddy.

[mutantdevle]

If we do decide that we should just be letting Kokichi win here then the less we say about our opinions on it the better. That way, a scum!kokichi has less information to go one when deciding if he should empower scum or town (the decision being based on whether he thinks we are all likely to want to lynch 1 on a scum flip of the other). But for now, I'm set on the idea of actively trying in this minigame. I'm not caught up yet so my opinion could change if I see a really strong mechanical case for it, but I doubt that'll happen.

[Nibbui]

No, Mutant.

We would be deciding who he empowers and in the next day we would confirm. It would be our choice, not kokichi, and therefore it would be unrelated to Kokichi's flip.

That's not the problem please. I already appointed the real difficulties I think.

I get that you want to play the minigames, but that argument sounds a bit intelectually dishonest of you.

[mutantdevle]

I felt as though getting town to be powered up would be good but there's no gaurantee that Kokichi is town AND/OR that Kokichi doesn't just empower scum.
I don't like it.

Yeah, but there'd be 2 chances of town being empowered. The only thing that I think would make this opinion valid considering your other contrasting opinion is if you believe with a solid level of confidence that Kokichi is indeed scum. Is that so?

[Nibbui]

If we do decide that we should just be letting Kokichi win here then the less we say about our opinions on it the better.

That way, a scum!kokichi has less information to go one when deciding if he should empower scum or town (the decision being based on whether he thinks we are all likely to want to lynch 1 on a scum flip of the other). But for now, I'm set on the idea of actively trying in this minigame. I'm not caught up yet so my opinion could change if I see a really strong mechanical case for it, but I doubt that'll happen.

VOTE: Mutant

I think you're scum right now tbh. I doubt that you can't see the problem with what you said here, even more when I actually already talked about that.

If we're letting Kokichi win, and we can only do that if the winner is publicly announced afterwards, we're going to vote by the HEAL: tag and who gets majority healing votes is the one to get unlocked.

[Nibbui]

Like, what you have been saying here is just too weird Mutant.

I don't even know how to fit it as a scum scheme or something yet, but definitely doesn't sound town to me.

[mutantdevle]

No, Mutant.

We would be deciding who he empowers and in the next day we would confirm. It would be our choice, not kokichi, and therefore it would be unrelated to Kokichi's flip.

That's not the problem please. I already appointed the real difficulties I think.

I get that you want to play the minigames, but that argument sounds a bit intelectually dishonest of you.

Deciding who he empowers is pointless in my opinion. The obvious answer to each of us is ourselves. In my opinion, if you're seriously considering nominating someone else to get the empowerment then you either A) Have too much faith in a town read or B) Have no faith in yourself to make use of your flavour. Other than that, our choices will either be wildly different to the point that Kokichi will just end up choosing by themself or there will be a plurality vote that decides it which negates the whole point of us all agreeing on who we want to be empowered.

I look forward to reading your own difficulties with this idea. But I do think it needs to be said that those of us who don't want to just hand Kokichi the win here have that opinion for more reasons than just mechanical scepticism. We are also being selfish. I'm going to be heavily critical of anyone opposing this idea who doesn't acknowledge that their own selfishness plays a part in the formation of their opinion because selfishness is scummy and, to me, if you're trying to hide that then you're trying to hide that you're being scummy.

[mutantdevle]

If we do decide that we should just be letting Kokichi win here then the less we say about our opinions on it the better.

That way, a scum!kokichi has less information to go one when deciding if he should empower scum or town (the decision being based on whether he thinks we are all likely to want to lynch 1 on a scum flip of the other). But for now, I'm set on the idea of actively trying in this minigame. I'm not caught up yet so my opinion could change if I see a really strong mechanical case for it, but I doubt that'll happen.

VOTE: Mutant

I think you're scum right now tbh. I doubt that you can't see the problem with what you said here, even more when I actually already talked about that.

If we're letting Kokichi win, and we can only do that if the winner is publicly announced afterwards, we're going to vote by the HEAL: tag and who gets majority healing votes is the one to get unlocked.

Like, what you have been saying here is just too weird Mutant.

I don't even know how to fit it as a scum scheme or something yet, but definitely doesn't sound town to me.

I'd just like to emphasise this, I haven't read what you've said yet. I catch up in chronological order from the last post I've made in the thread and when I do start catching up I always jump back to the quote I just addressed On this occasion, I've also decided to reply in real time. I'm glad I did.

[Nibbui]

It's not even about letting Kokichi win or not. It's how you're theorizing we should let Kokichi decide if we let him win.

If you're so suspicious of Kokichi being scum, I don't think it would be a good idea to let him decide for himself.

This game works by plurality vote and therefore I don't see a problem with deciding who gets unlocked by plurality votes.

Also, I indeed do not want to get unlocked because my role is simply kinda useless.

[mutantdevle]

I also feel like his whole 'power a second person up' thing is very questionable.

What's questionable about it? Questionable of what alignment it's coming from? Because lying about this sort of power is a stupid idea and Kokichi isn't stupid. If they are lying about this role, then they're going to have a lot of explaining to do when no one claims being powered up. They'd be lynched for that. If they flip as actually having this role, then we'd lynch the person they claimed should have been empowered for not admitting it, so no scum in their right mind would withhold that information either (in fact, they'd want to claim it so that if they flipped scum it would make kokichi look bad).

[mutantdevle]

It's not even about letting Kokichi win or not. It's how you're theorizing we should let Kokichi decide if we let him win.

If you're so suspicious of Kokichi being scum, I don't think it would be a good idea to let him decide for himself.

This game works by plurality vote and therefore I don't see a problem with deciding who gets unlocked by plurality votes.

Also, I indeed do not want to get unlocked because my role is simply kinda useless.

When was I saying that we should just let kokichi decided? I think you've misread my post because I never said that. What I said was that I don't think we'd be able to come to a solid agreement on who kokichi should empower and hence kokichi would end up just choosing anyway because we can't decide. I don't think anyone thinks it's optimal for Kokichi to decide for himself regardless of their read on him.

This game doesn't work on plurality vote, it works on the majority. Plurality is just the most votes. That means if everyone has 1 vote each but one person has 2 votes then the person with 2 votes wins. If we empower someone who only 2 people think are town enough to be empowered then that completely defeats the point of having the vote.

Just to clarify, are you saying you

know

what ability you'd unlock if you won the minigame? Because I'm only told which of my picks I'd unlock for doing so.

[mutantdevle]

Oh, I see what you're saying now. I think my 385 answers your concerns. It was probably worth mentioning in my 380 that I heavily doubt we will reach a majority on who to empower and hence the deciding vote would go to kokichi.

[Nibbui]

When was I saying that we should just let kokichi decided? I think you've misread my post because I never said that.

More or less here:

If we do decide that we should just be letting Kokichi win here then the less we say about our opinions on it the better.

If this isn't implying that we shouldn't restrict Kokichi choice Idk what it is.

This game doesn't work on plurality vote, it works on the majority. Plurality is just the most votes. That means if everyone has 1 vote each but one person has 2 votes then the person with 2 votes wins. If we empower someone who only 2 people think are town enough to be empowered then that completely defeats the point of having the vote.

With this post I can somewhat agree, it still would be better than letting Kokichi decide in any matter though. Too much WIFOM.

Just to clarify, are you saying you

know

what ability you'd unlock if you won the minigame? Because I'm only told which of my picks I'd unlock for doing so.

I mean, isn't something similar to my primary ability/role? Because if it is I have a good idea of what might be (even the flavour suggest so) and it's not useful at all.

[Elbirn]

Yeah I'm 100% against "leashing" the person who wins the minigame, Nibbui you can go kick rocks

[mutantdevle]

Btw I forgot to mention. If I win a 2nd time I can unlock TWO more peoples roles.

I'm not sure what to make of this tbh. It's like it goes against the whole premise of having minigames if the optimal thing to do is just hand the win to Kokichi everytime to empower as many people as possible. Even if Kokichi is scum, this would force them to empower town as well. It's like the minigames are supposed to be Kokichi vs Scum. I don't disbelieve the claim, it just makes me think it's a trap. Maybe the trap is just that if we let Kokichi try to win than it reduces the chances town even wins in the first place. Think about it, 3 scum working against 1 town. Town can't work together because that just gives info to the scum. Whereas, every member of the town trying to win means that town has a higher probability of winning.

[Nibbui]

Yeah I'm 100% against "leashing" the person who wins the minigame, Nibbui you can go kick rocks

When I said I'm actually wanting to do that?

I'm just saying that if majority agrees that Kokichi must win, we need to lynch anyone that steal the win.

I can't care less about this mechanical talk tbh.

[Elbirn]

Yeah I'm 100% against "leashing" the person who wins the minigame, Nibbui you can go kick rocks

When I said I'm actually wanting to do that?

I'm just saying that if majority agrees that Kokichi must win, we need to lynch anyone that steal the win.

I can't care less about this mechanical talk tbh.

The implication as I understood it was that we should be having a secondary vote on who gets the minigame power. I'm not about that. Let's all play the game and go from there.

[Nibbui]

Btw I forgot to mention. If I win a 2nd time I can unlock TWO more peoples roles.

I'm not sure what to make of this tbh. It's like it goes against the whole premise of having minigames if the optimal thing to do is just hand the win to Kokichi everytime to empower as many people as possible. Even if Kokichi is scum, this would force them to empower town as well. It's like the minigames are supposed to be Kokichi vs Scum. I don't disbelieve the claim, it just makes me think it's a trap. Maybe the trap is just that if we let Kokichi try to win than it reduces the chances town even wins in the first place. Think about it, 3 scum working against 1 town. Town can't work together because that just gives info to the scum. Whereas, every member of the town trying to win means that town has a higher probability of winning.

and that's why I'm here like:

1 - We only can let Kokichi win if the winner is publicly announced.

2 -IF majority agrees that Kokichi winning is advantageous, we need to lynch anyone that steals the win, because like you said, they can be scum.

In a certain way, letting Kokichi win here and voting on who to unlock is one of the best ways to make sure that towny people win and therefore that town has higher chances of winning, since scum has the natural advantage of having a private topic and being together.

However, we're on day 1 so it's hard to get good town reads, also, I particularly don't know how the minigame works (if the winner is announced or not). Then like...mmmh, whatever?

It's not hard to understand and I'm bored. I'll need to write some fluffly posts if this goes on.

[mutantdevle]

If we do decide that we should just be letting Kokichi win here then the less we say about our opinions on it the better.

If this isn't implying that we shouldn't restrict Kokichi choice Idk what it is.

I specifically meant that the less we talk about whether or not we'd lynch someone for being empowered by kokichi or kokichi themself depending if either of them flipped scum the better. Because, in my opinion, Kokichi is going to have to make some kind of choice between whoever we deem the most town if we follow that idea as I don't think we'd reach a majority. Sorry if I wasn't explicit in that opinion. It's kinda hard to explain it when it's so many hypotheticals embedded in each other. But the jist of it is that I think Kokichi making some sort of decision is inevitable if we do this even though we don't want him to and that's why the whole idea is bad.

Just to clarify, are you saying you

know

what ability you'd unlock if you won the minigame? Because I'm only told which of my picks I'd unlock for doing so.

I mean, isn't something similar to my primary ability/role? Because if it is I have a good idea of what might be (even the flavour suggest so) and it's not useful at all.

There's nothing in my role PM that suggests each ability is linked? Assuming all role formats are the same, I can see how you'd come to that conclusion though. Given the partial claims we've had, I think I'm just going to assume that the information we are given is different for each person and not get hung up on the details because they really don't matter until full claims are made.

[mutantdevle]

The implication as I understood it was that we should be having a secondary vote on who gets the minigame power. I'm not about that. Let's all play the game and go from there.

I mean, if we do let kokichi win, then we are 100% doing the secondary vote. I'm currently under the impression that we are not letting kokichi win though.

[Nibbui]

Yeah I'm 100% against "leashing" the person who wins the minigame, Nibbui you can go kick rocks

When I said I'm actually wanting to do that?

I'm just saying that if majority agrees that Kokichi must win, we need to lynch anyone that steal the win.

I can't care less about this mechanical talk tbh.

The implication as I understood it was that we should be having a secondary vote on who gets the minigame power. I'm not about that. Let's all play the game and go from there.

Well, optimal or not I'm fine with that.

I was really saying what is optimal depending on what we choose, really. Playing the minigames sounds fun and I don't want to ruin other people enjoyment by not letting them play it.