Mini Theme 2094 : Undertale Semi-Open: Game over!

[popsofctown]

Yes Chemist, I double checked before posting and caught it on the triple check just after posting, and editted. The original unvote was valid.
Phone modding is NP hard

[popsofctown]

Votecount 2.0

Kill votes:

Something_Smart -----(0)
Elements -------------(0)
Oversoul --------------(0)
DrDolittle --------------(0)
Dr Easy Bake ----------(0)
volxen -----------------(0)
Chemist1422-----------(0)
Adorable----------------(0)
Emperor flippyNips-----(0)

Spare votes:

Something_Smart -----(0)

Elements -------------(0)
Oversoul --------------(0)
DrDolittle --------------(0)
Dr Easy Bake ----------(0)
volxen -----------------(0)
Chemist1422-----------(3) - Elements, Something_Smart, Oversoul
Adorable----------------(0)
Emperor flippyNips-----(0)

Voting for a Kill (0):

:

Voting for a Spare (3):

: Elements, Something_Smart, Oversoul

Not voting at all(5):

DrDolittle, Emperor flippyNips, volxen, Adorable, Dr Easy Bake, Chemist1422

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to make a choice.

The idea that you can connect with friends who also like deception games, even when you are travelling far from home. . .
It fills you with DETERMINATION!

Deadline: Deadline display omitted for now due to VLA

Quoting myself for pagetopping effects. No change to votecount.

[DrDolittle]

I dont want to be spared. Too much pressure.

[DrDolittle]

Meh. I dont think too highly of crumbs chemist. If I were scum I'd put one early game too due to the value of the named townie

[DrDolittle]

So. Heres what's up nvm. Chemist slash oversoul are both not getting killed, since if one dies, the other one is immediately outted.

[DrDolittle]

Let's just not think about these guys at all until day 4. Now how hard is it to send 3 out of like 8 or 9 when theres only 1 scumbutt?

[DrDolittle]

Nips and adorable should both be town. Send them. Elements is ok as well

[Chemist1422]

So. Heres what's up nvm. Chemist slash oversoul are both not getting killed, since if one dies, the other one is immediately outted.

Oversoul retracted

[DrDolittle]

HEAL: Chemist

[DrDolittle]

Actually, do you want to be spared chemist?

[Something_Smart]

HEAL: pops

Will wait for volxen to check in.

[Something_Smart]

Actually, do you want to be spared chemist?

I would assume he does...

[Adorable]

Elements is getting town read alot and I wonder if Chemist is allowed to protect himself. Maybe we could spare Elements today, Chemist protects himself tonight and he gets spared next day. If Chemist is not allowed to protect himself, then Chemist should get spared.

[volxen]

I mean if it is a chennis/me team, it would mean that five dumb townies decided to speed-spare scum without any scum help... so, unless you actively scumread something chennis posted, that's pretty tinfoily.

Chennisden is still my strongest townread from day one so I don’t think that a Chennisden/SS scumteam is at all likely. But I don’t think that Chenn’s wagon composition in and of itself is a good reason to rule out that possibility. Chenn was self-voting, and Oversoul had a clear agenda in mind with respect to his vote on Chenn (he was baiting people to put Chenn up to L-1 so he could quickhammer him and “lock him in the shadow realm”). Oversoul was scumreading Chenn, so it was really only four people on his wagon that were townreading him (Elements, Adorable, Volxen, and Gamma Emerald). Even if Chenn were scum, I’m not sure that his partner would want to quickly jump on his wagon (his wagon built up very fast) and tie themselves to Chenn – this is similar to a point that you brought up on day one about your own heal wagon (44).

In any case I do think that Chenn is town, and I think that all of the voters on his wagon (minus Oversoul) are likely town as well. Elements and Adorable were both quick to jump on Chenn’s heal wagon as the second and third voters respectively, and I don’t think that scum would want to help town!Chenn’s heal wagon gain momentum that early on on day one, when there was still the possibility of getting one of their own spared. In Oversoul’s case it’s different because he clearly was planning to quickhammer Chenn as soon as he got up to L-1, which is evidenced by him baiting both Gamma and DEB to put Chenn up to L-1. He claims he did this because he scumreads Chenn and he wants to prove that Chenn is scum via sparing him and then switching to the Neutral route. The logic checks out in that if we spared Chenn and then spared the PR, switching to the Neutral route would confirm Chenn’s alignment since the PR would be confirmed town and the number of scum among the spared people would be revealed once we reach the core. However, it was still anti-town to quickhammer Chenn and end day one that abruptly – Chenn was very likely to still be spared on day one if we had played closer to the deadline. All that quickhammer really did was end the day abruptly, and it significantly limited Chenn’s content in the game before he got spared. There is potential scum motivation in that – if Oversoul is scum and Chenn is town and Oversoul believes that he cannot shift momentum away from Chenn’s heal wagon, then it benefits him to end the day early and limit Chenn’s impact on the game if he believes that he is going to be spared anyways.

And now there’s the fact that Oversoul has admitted to fakeclaiming PR and has forced the real PR to out themselves in the process (I’m assuming that Chemist is the real PR and there is not going to be yet another PR claim). There is potential scum-movation in that as well – Chennisden’s original plan (179) was for himself to be spared on day one, a consensus townread to be spared on day two, and the PR to be spared on day three (assuming no CC). If there was still a strong consensus townread around on day four, this would give us the option to win outright on day four via the Pacifist route. By Oversoul fakeclaiming PR and forcing the real PR to come out on day two, it’s now more difficult to win via the Pacifist route, because sparing the PR today rather than on day three means that scum get’s to kill another consensus townread player before we can spare again, limiting the selection of players that will be around to spare on day three and day four. And as Adorable pointed out (296), since the PR won’t be around on night two scum has free reign to kill whoever they want tonight. A consensus townread player (e.g., DDL or Elements) that might have overwise been spared today might not be around on day three. So if Oversoul is scum and he believes that he cannot win if town follows the Pacifist route, it makes sense for him to take action to try and force town to switch to the Neutral route.

All that being said I don’t think that we should give up on trying to follow the Pacifist route to victory this early on. We should spare Chemist today and then we can spare one of DDL or Elements on day three. On day four we can re-evaluate based on who is still alive, but we don’t need to switch to the Neutral route before that point because at least one of our two top consensus townreads (DDL and Elements) will still be around on day three.

[Oversoul]

Hmm juicy data

[volxen]

HEAL: Something_Smart

I believe I can sort chennis in the spared PT if it comes to that.

This is a moot point now since Chemist has been forced to out himself as the PR and we are sparing him today, but I wouldn't have been comfortable with sparing you today given how eager you have been to get yourself spared since the beginning of day one. I realize that Chennisden was even more eager than you to get himself spared on day one, but the difference is that I have multiple completed games with Chennisden where he was town and I am confident that he is town in this game based on his day one play and the fact that he was transparently towny in a lot of his posts. You and I do have one completed game together, which was Mini Normal 2067: Musicals. That was the game where you and I were both town, I was mislynched on day one, you were the vigilante, I told you to vigkill Slaxx (who also turned out to be town) on night one and you did so, and you were nightkilled on night one. I was mostly null on your slot in that game -- I actually thought you might have been scum in that game given how you somewhat lightly defended me when almost everyone else wanted me lynched (i.e., I thought you might have been scum staying off of my wagon to look good because you lightly defended me but didn't really try to dismantle my wagon). I'm completely null on your slot in this game currently. Maybe you are easy to read for people that are very familiar with you, but I find you hard to read, especially since a lot of your content is related to mechanics/setup (though I tend to talk a lot about mechanics/setup myself as well).

[volxen]

Elements is getting town read alot and I wonder if Chemist is allowed to protect himself. Maybe we could spare Elements today, Chemist protects himself tonight and he gets spared next day. If Chemist is not allowed to protect himself, then Chemist should get spared.

No, Chemist cannot protect himself. His PR (Toriel) is similar to a standard doctor PR that can only protect other players:

Toriel: As long as no player has been Killed, Toriel can protect another player from a kill each night before the Core is reached. If Toriel protects a player from a kill in this way, she can no longer use her ability.

[volxen]

@Oversoul, Do you have any previous completed games with Chennisden (particularly games where Chennisden was town), or is this game your first time playing with him?

[Something_Smart]

Yeah I intentionally did shit-all in Musicals.

Do you think my eagerness to get spared is at all related to my alignment?

[Chemist1422]

Actually, do you want to be spared chemist?

Yes, but not immediately

I’ll be spending today working on legacy reads, then you can spare me

[Oversoul]

@Oversoul, Do you have any previous completed games with Chennisden (particularly games where Chennisden was town), or is this game your first time playing with him?

First time playing with him. Why does this matter?

[Oversoul]

Chemist do you think we should go spare route or do you think we should go Neutral?

[Oversoul]

HEAL: Something_Smart

I believe I can sort chennis in the spared PT if it comes to that.

This is a moot point now since Chemist has been forced to out himself as the PR and we are sparing him today, but I wouldn't have been comfortable with sparing you today given how eager you have been to get yourself spared since the beginning of day one. I realize that Chennisden was even more eager than you to get himself spared on day one, but the difference is that I have multiple completed games with Chennisden where he was town and I am confident that he is town in this game based on his day one play and the fact that he was transparently towny in a lot of his posts. You and I do have one completed game together, which was Mini Normal 2067: Musicals. That was the game where you and I were both town, I was mislynched on day one, you were the vigilante, I told you to vigkill Slaxx (who also turned out to be town) on night one and you did so, and you were nightkilled on night one. I was mostly null on your slot in that game -- I actually thought you might have been scum in that game given how you somewhat lightly defended me when almost everyone else wanted me lynched (i.e., I thought you might have been scum staying off of my wagon to look good because you lightly defended me but didn't really try to dismantle my wagon). I'm completely null on your slot in this game currently. Maybe you are easy to read for people that are very familiar with you, but I find you hard to read, especially since a lot of your content is related to mechanics/setup (though I tend to talk a lot about mechanics/setup myself as well).

What was the point of this post?

[Oversoul]

Chemist do you think we should go spare route or do you think we should go Neutral?

I am pretty sure I have a third but not sure I’ll have a fourth to spare

[Chemist1422]

Chemist do you think we should go spare route or do you think we should go Neutral?

I am pretty sure I have a third but not sure I’ll have a fourth to spare

I think we go Neutral if we’re confident we can flip one scum in two people, otherwise go pacifist