In post 995, Menalque wrote:EP/jjh scum
eth0s heavy post
for instance, he says that he's waiting for eth0s' heavy post (
459), but after that comes does he engage with it? no, he continues hard pushing kori!scum rather than talking about whether kori is plausible town or not (
464465). He takes the time to engage with the post, but only
after
day has ended and we're in twilight, in
537. aka, he's trying to distance himself from the mislynch by explaining why he wasn't persuaded by the post. but if you're town, why not engage the arguments first while events are still in motion? trying to look like you're involved in the process of sorting after the possibility of doing so has collapsed is scummy, and it's searching for town points while not actually being towny.
I said that because it had been like 2 hours since eth0s said he was making a heavy post. Those posts you link there, 464 and 465, are my immediate response to said post. I later engage with the post in detail simply because eth0s seemed upset with the amount of time I had given it.
A specific thing in your argument here really stands out as well- "trying to distance himself fro the mislynch by explaining why he wasn't persuaded by the post." - Huh? Are you reading what you're typing? I don't understand what you think scum!me would be trying to achieve here, or how you think it would be achieved, or literally anything there.
interactions with me and twilight "kori is still scum" behaviour
then there's also his weird interactions with me, and his attitude of kori!scum is still a thing despite kori literally having been lynched and saying he's town i.e. erasure of the incentive to lie. I think this is scum doubling down so that they can soak some of the heat for the mislynch they pushed by saying "no, look, I was SO CONVINCED he was scum, look how I still thought so in twilight even after he was dead and saying he was town!!!!" whereas I think the genuinely towny thing to do there is acknowledge you could have been wrong, and engage with the person to try and get reads/takes on the game that could help town for the next day, even if those reads might be that you're scum for making the push.
Look at my recent newbie (1949) where I self-hammered as town on D2. I was convinced teacher was scum, and he was the same on me. But there was still engagement after the hammer despite irritation where we worked together on the off chance that we were both town to try and provide town with an optimal state for the next day given the self-hammer mistake.
Nah I thought Korina was scum and honestly there's a part of me that still thinks you might be scum just for showing up after the hammer to chastise the shit out of me specifically for it
I wanted you to actually explain why you thought he was town, and you seemed to only think he was town as a default stance because he was posting in twilight
attempts to manipulate framing
I think there's also misreps in jjh's twilight posts, or if not exactly misreps, at least particular and odd framing: let's look at
556. "I don't understand how any sane person could actually townread Korina right now". This is shading (1) presenting anyone who was doubtful as to kori!scum as someone behaving delusionally. Note, this is not the same as saying, "surely you admit kori has good odds of being scum?" which I would have totally agreed with prior to self-hammer and conf!town status. But it's making it look like the reads of anyone who was doubtful are less valuable, and it presents jjh as having followed the only logical course of action by pushing kori hard. When actually, another very reasonable course of action was to just approach the slot with a lot of scepticism and talk it out among the rest of the town during the rest of D1. The speed and severity of the push reads to me as someone who wanted to get Korina done and end day quickly, but that wasn't necessary from a town pov. kori, after changing his role claim, was always going to be a viable D1 lynch. Why doesn't town spend the rest of the day talking out whether or not there are solutions (a la eth0s) or if the scummy outweighs the potential positive utility?
plus there's
558 which is another attempt to devalue Kori's reads despite being the only person we knew would be conf!town at the time. this is important for scum!jjh because he was Kori's strongest SR on death. I don't think town cares so much about devaluing conf!town's reads. I think town chooses to keep scum hunting and to town case themself if needed should the conf!town's reads be followed. the pre-emptive shading and dismissal of the reads (plus the fact that I know one read is good, not that I expect you to be persuaded by this) is scum!motivated, not town!motivated.
I wanted to see someone argue that Korina was town. Nobody did. No sane person could make that argument and I stand by it.
I had evidence Korina's reads were shit in that I know I am town, and furthermore you're skipping over the part where I criticise Korina's scumhunting technique. There are multiple reasons why I put 0 stock in Korina's reads and they have been explained.
Reads aren't just magical things that form that town get. The only thing worth putting stock in is REASONING, and Korina's reasoning was the direct opposite of what is logical, thus I was opposed to the idea of people sheeping them and the idea of putting stock into them seems nonsensical to the point of increasing the likelihood of being scum.
On the speed of the push- fuck that. That wasn't me who self-hammered. Wasn't even me who brought it close. I pushed down hard on the lie, but you're absolutely talking shit here if you think I'm responsible for the quicklynch. You would do well to look at the actual wagon, although Korina was the most at fault for the day ending early by a wide margin. I wanted other people to react to the push. I feel like what you're doing here in this point is FAR beyond what you are accusing me of- "attempts to manipulate framing."
progression in his interaction with me, SoaS most likely to be a NK from jjh
I also think jjh's approach to my slot was weird there. He starts off very hostile "I thought you were meant to be good" but rapidly changes to a conciliatory tone "engaging with you is the only thing concerning me that he might be town". And just now, I found something pretty damning. He says in
570 that, in regard to my point about having healthy scepticism regarding kori slot and going back and forth, that he did go back on it at one point (
569) and that "SoaS can confirm that I did so, but I did so in the PT" (
570). But SoaS never does this. The game moves on, and he doesn't comment on the point. Now, as has been mentioned by me and by jjh, SoaS is a weird kill. But he's a perfectly logical kill for scum!jjh because that lets him entirely control the narrative of what happened in the PT with SoaS. He can take his voice for himself. And if he didn't in fact do that in the PT, then it stops SoaS from ever pointing that out in the future if his mention of this gets spotted (like I just did).
this also fits with scum!jjh and scum!EP. killing SoaS lets jjh provide additional cover for EP by claiming that deb was TRing him when he died. there's no indication I see of that in the main thread, so all we have to go on is jjh's word that it happened in the PT. I don't really see a good reason to believe that.
I have already argued against this. You call it "pretty damning" when it's frankly a ridiculous point to bring up and makes no logical sense.
inconsistent approach to TL from day-to-day
then look at fuckin
585 "My TL scumread does mostly hinge on Korina!scum fwiw". if this is town!jjh, surely he has a lot more scepticism about TL today? scepticism that was also lacking in his engagement with kori. but he doesn't, he hops onto someone he had a SR on that was "mostly" conditional on something that wasn't true, and he does that instead of engaging with me on EP!scum but instead to draw attention away from EP!scum.
The key takeaway is that, yes, jjh has been doing stuff. But that 'stuff' has been wildly inconsistent with a town mindset and approach to the game.
It did mostly hinge on Korina!scum at the time. It was a fairly lazy scumread; if Korina was scum, TL was absolutely scum. I did not need to do more thinking. Then, Korina flipped town and I did some more thinking, alongside asking deb about reads. I do have more scepticism on TL, yeah. I think you might want to reread some shit.
If you want attention back on EP, let's talk about that vote just there
"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle
