Newbie 617 (Over!)

[caf19]

I'm quite sure Mike-zim is town for now and probably tomorrow too.

Minor FoS for this post. It seems far too certain at such an early stage. Mike had only made a couple of 2-line posts; I don't think I could ever be sure someone was town on so little material. Scum are the ones who are certain, as they know who is town already.

This is the first basis of my caf19-armlx pairing.

Why? Because of 'distancing' implications, or something else?

I don't like people trying to direct our D2 and D3 lynches either

FoS Qman; as I'm currently inclined to believe that Bazza is scum I won't push this much today, but if that changes or we lynch Bazza and he turns up town, then I'll be looking for answers.

Hypocrisy much?

What I did here was express suspicion of Qman but said I'd come back to it later. I stopped short of actually advocating his lynch on subsequent days, precisely because that wouldn't be the pro-town action. There's a difference between "looking for answers" and "I think we should lynch him".

Of the two, I'd say Bazza takes number 1 spot for me. Mike has a couple of redeeming features that Bazza doesn't have. Firstly, there's a possible 'noob town' explanation, and secondly, though I don't really see or agree with armlx's declaration of a town-tell, I feel that pushing for mike's lynch might be somewhat as a reaction to armlx's confirmation.

Huh? Can you explain this last sentence? You didn't want to be seen as pushing for mike's lynch because of armlx' statement?

I think I clarified that statement shortly afterwards, here's the relevant quotation:

With the argument over armlx-Mike's connection, people could just be voting Mike to react against armlx or 'prove him wrong', rather than due to the actual scummy behaviour that has come directly from Mike (which is what I think we should be focusing on in that situation).

Basically, a part of people's reasoning for voting for mike was as a negative reaction to armlx's declaration of him as town. Which isn't actually that valid a reason (because it isn't drawn from mike's actions), compared to the more valid case on Bazza. Wasn't anything to do with how I wanted to be seen, rather an attempt to scumhunt properly.

I really think Bazza is scum as opposed to VI; his inconsistencies are too great to overlook.

What makes you believe that inconsistency is the hobgoblin of scum, rather than village idiots? Has Bazza

really

been all that inconsistent? He attacks everyone who attacks him; he thinks armlx is obvscum, and he posts too damn much. He actually suspects more than just armlx, but that doesn't make him scum, just frustrated. I don't believe he's come out and said "Darox, armlx, AND X are all scum!"

Firstly, saying "Bazza has been consistently useless; at least that's consistent!" isn't that much of a defence. Secondly, I made a point in post 431 about the contradictions between Bazza's unshakeable certainty and his endless vacillations ("Darox is scum... no wait, it's caf... no, it's Darox"); I believe it still stands regarding his inconsistencies.

Fair enough, I guess I can expect to take some suspicion for going for the easy lynch. But he's not exactly a terrible lynch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "too scummy to be scum" argument pretty fallacious (in a similar vein to "too townie")?

VC here

[Brandi]

OMGOMGOMG. Its Mister Flaaaaaaaaaaaay. Woo!!! Hey guys, I've got the weekend and Monday before I have to go to Florida. I really hate Florida, I don't want to go. Then after that I go to Texas. I'm HOPING my dad will have internet. I feel really bad being gone long periods then coming in and saying nothing really that helpful... but I think it would be even worse for me to go about asking for a replacement. So I'm going to be working on a post, which I may not finish tonight because I have to get off the computer at Midnight. >.<;

[Darox]

What makes you believe that inconsistency is the hobgoblin of scum, rather than village idiots? Has Bazza

really

been all that inconsistent? He attacks everyone who attacks him; he thinks armlx is obvscum, and he posts too damn much. He actually suspects more than just armlx, but that doesn't make him scum, just frustrated. I don't believe he's come out and said "Darox, armlx, AND X are all scum!"

Aside from the fact that consistently attacking people that attack him isn't really a point in favor of Bazza, he has been jumping back and forth all over the show.

Atm i find Darox the least suspicious.

Atm If i were to guess a mafia pairing now it would be (Armix, Darox)

I'm far more suspicious of Darox though and know Mike is mafia.
[...]
My certainty is based on dozens of posts and actions by Mike.
[...]
Armix's certainty came within the first page...i didn't suspect Armix til more recently when i thought out of his possible motives.
[...]
[

In reference to Armlx

] How certain am i??? 100%, i know he is mafia
[...]
I'm sure that if i live past today and Armix dies i'll be killed by the remaining mafia at night anyway.

Armix on the other hand should be dead, there is strong evidence against him, and if i die on Day 1 i urge everyone to go after him and Darox. [

This, interestingly, is what is used most against me, setting up lynches.

]
[...]
Armix and his mafia bud (Darox, or maybe Caf) [

And then he states hes not even sure about me, but advocates my lynch anyway

]

Speaking of pushing D2 and 3 lynches...

i know that i will probably die, but one good thing that will come of it is hopefully the townies will go after you and Darox afterwards

hopefully my team will not sway from my thoughts and kill you and Darox.

And back to Bazza's inconsistencies.

i haven't quite worked out who out of Darox and Caf is his buddy.....but i'd say 60/40 that it's most likely Darox.[

Can't decide if I am 100% scum or just maybe scum

]

After re-reading again, i think that Caf is more likely to be Armix's buddy than Darox

May i suggest that EVERYONE goes back to the start of the thread and re-reads the posts from the perspective that Mike (along with Darox or Caf) is mafia

my idea relates to Armix,Darox and Caf being mafia.

[In reference to Armlx] i am hoping that people who are 50/50 between us realise that killing you is a better option as your scum partner is more easy to recognise....than if i were to have one.

really don't see the point when two of the most vocal members in the game are mafia and have decided to team up on me [

References Armlx and Darox

]
[...]
I'm curious as to why Caf needs to wait on Angelmouse before she votes for me....If you think i'm scum Caf vote for me, if you don't then don't....is this just a ploy to seem pro-townie. [

This is not directly related, but I think its interesting that Bazza doesn't want Angel to talk before he gets hammered

]

I changed my mind from Darox being his most likely partner, because after re-reading i realised that there was a pretty noticable confrontation between Darox and armix nearer the beginning.
[...]
I also don't like the way you have been ripping apart and over-analyzing all of my posts. [

In reference to Caf

]

Darox is probably a misguided Townie Newb who is so arrogant in her beliefs about me

Caf19, as probable scum
[...]
Darox, most likely as a misguided townie

bandwagons are very detrimental to the town.

I am still undecided between who is Armix's scum buddy, between Caf and Darox. Both seem equally dillusional and agressive, and my opinion keeps going back and forth. Taking everything into consideration i'd probably say Caf19.

VOTE: ARMIX, CAF19 AND DAROX

I'd guess at you and Armlx being scum buddies but realise you could be the unhelpful townie and Caf could be scum.

Unvote: Vote Darox [

Previously voting Armlx

]

I keep thinking it's Darox who is Armlx's scum buddy but then you post and i revert back to you Caf

Is that enough evidence for you?

[Darox]

Last one of these, I promise.

This is actually an amalgamated quote from two different posts, but it was the start of my spidersense on Darox:

Unvote, Vote: Qman

Lets get this bandwagon rolling, maybe we might hear something from him.

Wrong play, let the mod sort it out in the case of people who just aren't posting unless they are active elsewhere on the site.

I had no intention of getting Qman even as far as -2, I wanted to see if I could get a rise out of him and spark some discussion.

Voting without actually intending to lynch someone is not good play. Stating out loud that you were never going to see it through to completion is even worse. This looks like avoidance of actual scumhunting; despite the fact that I think the flak Darox got at the time is overwrought (probably tunnel-visioning on armlx), I don't like this series of posts.

Bad play on my part. Should have realized that what I did wouldn't achieve much.

For now, I am fine with Mike and armlx both staying alive today, but if I don't hear what armlx has to say on the matter day 2 then I think we should lynch both of them, starting with armlx.

Not just one, but two future lynches. This is VERY confident for a week into D1.

I have responded to previous mentions of this here.

I swear i am townie, voting for me is a mistake.

I really, really don't like that appeal.

...

I wasn't so sure before, but I think Bazza merits more attention today then Armlx.

Vote: Bazza-Scumfinder

This seems "off" to me. Earlier he was all about armlx, now that the wagon has grown he shifts to Bazza. Maybe I missed some context, but this seems like Darox-armlx have distanced sufficiently, and now are going for the kill.

We need the rest of the town in here.

Time to string up the weasel?

Antsy much?

I already answered to both of these here as well as in this post.

Oh, and Clammy, the remarks at the end of 298 are more of the same line as 'Can we string this weasel up?' because even then we still didn't have opinions from Qman, angelmouse, or yourself. I was getting annoyed with the back and forth between Bazza and armlx/me and wanted the rest of the town to speak up so we could reach a decision.

Hey hey, the first sign that someone thinks I might be scummy. I was wondering when that would happen.

Not quite the reaction I would have expected from a first-time player, in a pro-town role, with their first suspicion leveled at them.

Up until then I felt like I was being largely ignored. I was also excited in being able to see what others thought I was doing wrong, in order to improve my gameplay. Given that you are assuming all first time players would act similarly, looks to be a weak tell.

I just reread what I typed and realized I ignored the possibility of Bazza being town, but following that route doesn't seem to provide any sizable clues. It basically means anyone aside from Bazza could be scum.

This jumps out at me as stirring the pot for D2. "Whoops, who could have expected that Bazza would be scum? Now what?!? Hey, how about...<person I lined up a case against earlier>..."

Scummy.

At this point he's said that Brandi, armlx, and clammy all need to be looked into D2.

I'm assuming you meant "Who could have expected that Bazza would be town," because if he is scum that was a good lynch.
I suggested Brandi or Clammy were possible buddies if Bazza turned out scum, and only if he turned out scum.
Suspicions against armlx were a continuation from my suspicions of his early actions towards mike. If Bazza turned out scum, I would be a bit less suspicious of Armlx, but if he turned out town I would be more suspicious of Armlx, because of his previous actions and the fact he was first on Bazza's case.

[Bazza-Scumfinder]

Nice to see someone who isn't scared to stand out and give fresh opinions. Welcome Mr.Flay. I'm so glad someone else is seeing what i'm seeing.

If i've come across as VI that will do fine for me, it has brought 3 suspects out and we only need to narrow that down to 2.....At least if people realise i am townie then i've done my job....whether it was an unbeneficial townie or not. I still think i have helped find the mafia.

Anyway, Darox....I see you quoted the "I know Mike is Mafia" when infact i EBWOPED that and told you it was supposed to say Armlx.

I have also already explained the "OMGUS" thing, i have NOT been against people who have voted me. I have NEVER said that i think Clammy or Qman are mafia.

The rest of your post about my indecisiveness on you or Caf is right, but i am allowed to change my opinion in the light of new posts and re-reads am i not???
I felt both of you were being tunnel-visioned and hyping up or inflating arguments against me, As a townie i felt like this was the mafia attacking me. I couldn't work out which one because both of you were equally aggressive and didn't really point out any other valid arguments against anyone else (unless it was to set up a Day 2 lynch)

BUT i did maintain throughout that i felt it was either you OR caf that was Armlx's partner......For the past few pages i have believed it to be you, and my suspicions are still growing. I would be TOTALLY surprised if you two weren't scum buddies.

Oh yeah, and good job concealing that(/Sarcasm)

Also, when you and Armlx are in trouble it is interesting how you revert back to me.

i did say i saw a connection between you and Armlx earlier in the game, i noticed the distancing. I did bread-crumb this incase people thought i was making it up later in the game.

[Bazza-Scumfinder]

i'm on holiday now btw, so any questions anyone has i am willing to answer, i realise this probably hasn't been my best game to date. Mostly due to frustration and other people's hyped up arguments and tunnel-vision.

This is the first time i have played @ MS. I also play on Spogg.com with destructor and Incognito who also play here and have done for a while, perhaps because i have a bit of a reputation there and am pretty experienced, i felt comfortable in just transferring my style of play.
Its the same people in the mafia games at spogg, so it's easier to play off of reputation or past games. i guess i should have remembered that i'd be treated the same as everyone else here and that i have no reputation.

[Bazza-Scumfinder]

Oh yeah, and Darox says about me pushing for Day 2 and 3 lynches......the difference being that the lynches i was pushing for were on the basis that i died and was found to be Townie. So it's silly for you to use that as evidence of my scuminess.

i said that if i die the townies will probably go after Armlx and you. why would that be the case if i was found to be mafia??? considering you two have been the most vocal in pushing for my lynch.

[Brandi]

Geez Bazza. I feel like I'm reading a novel when I read through your posts. Ok ok, I'm focusing, I'm going to post soon >.<;

[armlx]

Also, when you and Armlx are in trouble it is interesting how you revert back to me.

It's hard to revert when you never moved off in the first place.

said that if i die the townies will probably go after Armlx and you. why would that be the case if i was found to be mafia??? considering you two have been the most vocal in pushing for my lynch.

It wouldn't, but whats your point?

[Bazza-Scumfinder]

My point is, that Darox said that this was me pushing for a Day 2 and 3 lynch when she was pointing out things she viewed as scummy.

Also, about the "reverting back", i mean that when more pressure is placed on you two, you become even more vocal in your opinions against me.

I think it's good w#that we got a replacement, we needed a fresh perspective, rather than everyone being caught up in my bandwagon.

[Darox]

i said that if i die the townies will probably go after Armlx and you. why would that be the case if i was found to be mafia??? considering you two have been the most vocal in pushing for my lynch.

Read the quotes again, you didn't suggest we might be suspicious, you said we should be lynched without question.

[Qman]

P.S. Qman, despite being on my side on the armlx thing, this is scummy as hell:

Even if you are town, I feel the town is better off with you dead than alive, due to your play. This is normally an attitude I storngly disagree with, but you are proving the exception to the rule.

There are valid cases posted against you, regardless of if you think they are valid.

The only two people I'd vote for as things stand are Bazza and Armix. I have serious problems with Armix' early play which I'll dive into at a later point. I need to decide if I want do that today or tomorrow.

The sad part is, my instinct is telling me that I'd rather see Armix lynched today, but my head and reason tell me it should be you.

Feel like revisiting that discussion, now?

Okay then, sorry this took longer than i wanted it too.

Frankly i'm aware of how bad it looks to say that. Basiclly Bazza's raving at the point i said that was keeping me form getting a good read on everyone else, sans armix. The clutter he was throwing up both screwed with my reads, and was pretty frustrating. That said he's not quite as bad now. I've also been rethinking my thought that we'd learn alot off his lynch. We probably wouldn't learn much of anything, in fact, as everyone has just pushed the same track.

I'd love to lynch Bazza for my

personal

comfort level. That doesn't realy translate to wanting his lynched for the good of the game, hence my vote, unvote, vote, unvote. I'm not sure where i stand and I suspect I'm just not seeing through the clutter.

Armix on the other hand as I've said before, has alot to answer for and he's still my preferred "gut" lynch, I really can't reconcile his comments about mike zim with even half good IC play, as there was no reason for the comment. I spent a bit brainstorm and I'd have to agree with you, it reads as a possible leading of a scum buddy and if in fact that is true I highly suspect we have a Mafia Roleblocker that is not Armix, who'd probably be a standard goon pointing the RB in case of his lynch.

The above is of course, pure speculation. It could just be directing a night kill in case of lynch. The one thing I do know is he painted a HUGE target on mike's back.

I'll go with my gut feel for now and

vote: armix

[Brandi]

Also, Bazza, another thing that seriously bugs me about your posts is that I don't think you read over what you type. You go on to talk about one player when really in your head you mean another, and you swap genders. I think it would be a bit more helpful for you to do a few re-reads before you hit the submit button. Every time I come across your posts I feel like I have to decode something. Maybe I'm just really easily confused, but taking time to know who and what you are referring to might be a bit helpful to everyone...

[Brandi]

Oh, I see I made it in time for Q-man.

[Darox]

Whats the vote count like at the moment?

[Brandi]

Something with armlx having multiple votes on him. Ugh. I finally got my printer working. I'm too tired to sit at the computer and type out notes, so I'm using all my ink and paper to printer friendly all this stuff out and take notes .... T_T I feel as though the mod will kill me if I don't attempt to post something meaningful soon. I'm such a procrastinator. XP

[Brandi]

As these papers pile up, more and more I feel like this was a bad idea. But I definitely feel like I need to do some deep back tracking. So that's what I'm going to do. Darox, for the record, you ARE a male right? Bazza keeps making me think you are a female... but I'm totally not sure anymore.

[Darox]

Yeah, I am.

And armlx is spelt with a L, something Bazza also gets wrong a lot.

[Darox]

Time to make a list of vague feelings..

• 1.
  Bazza-Scumfinder
  Desperately trying to get anyone lynched but himself. He compromises his campaign against armlx by immediately jumping ship as soon as he sees a better shot at dodging the lynch. Doing so removed any remaining doubts I had that he might just be a really dumb townie.
  
• 2.
  armlx
  Mike-zim, and the defense thereof. Bad action as town or scum. Makes zero sense as town. Aside from that looks pretty neutral.
  
• 3.
  clammy
  Looked ok right up until he voted for Bazza because Bazza used the words 'tunnel visioned.' After I called him out on this, promptly jumps off the wagon and attacks me.
  
  
• caf19
  Neutral, seems to look shady in the eyes of others but I haven't really seen it.
  
• mike-zim
  DarlaBlueEyes
  Mostly silent despite being tagged by armlx as 'special', doesn't seem to get it. Seems vaguely townish. Darla replacing in seems to confirm this in part due to her responses to my queries on her opinion of mike/armlx.
  
• Brandi
  Neutral. Doesn't seem to really have a case on anyone.
  
• Qman
  Neutral positive, provides some decent coverage of the game, but seems to be summarizing more than anything.
  
• angelmouse
  Mr. Flay
  Replacing in for the silent Angelmouse. Provided good input, although does contradict self when discussing the armlx/mike connection. Misses some other details, but to be expected due to replacing in.

Oh, and finally, this seems to be happening a lot.

Saying "I think that guy is shady" =/= "Hand me the shotgun Billy"

Saying "I think that guy is shady" == "Whats your angle?/Who are you working for?"

[DarlaBlueEyes]

Well, Although legitimate points are raised against armlx here, I still need to go back and review him to lynch him, he plays like this everywhere, and unless he is like scum in everything (statistically improbable) then I'm gonna think the majority of whats being called scummy right now, is just his style.

I think that For me I would do 4 groups:

Towny-Appearing:

Clammy
Darrox

No-Read/Nuetral:
Flay

Possibly Scummy to No Read
armlx
Q-Man

Slightly to Most Seeming Scummy
Bazza
Calf
Brandi (being the least so far but she hasn't been too active either)

[caf19]

Whats the vote count like at the moment?

By my count, Bazza has 2, armlx has 2, and Darox has 1.

In general, momentum seems to be waning for the Bazza wagon, and the armlx wagon is gaining speed. To be honest, I haven't seen enough scummy behaviour from armlx to make me want to lynch him at the moment. The early 'confirmation' of mike was bad, but he's seemed alright after that, and I think we have a better target today. It'd be good to hear what armlx has to say about the growing suspicion of him, though.

The rest of your post about my indecisiveness on you or Caf is right, but i am allowed to change my opinion in the light of new posts and re-reads am i not???

Yes. However, you never change your mind even to the slightest degree on armlx, as you seem to "know" he's scum. This makes very little sense.

Slightly to Most Seeming Scummy
Bazza
Calf
Brandi (being the least so far but she hasn't been too active either)

I'm on your scumlist, but you've never actually expressed any suspicion of me. Why?

[Bazza-Scumfinder]

i know by the way Armlx has played that he is scum, and i am now positive thatDarox is his partner. i will not changemy opinion again because i am as certain as it is possible to be.

@ Darox, the reason i had no problem whatsoever changing my vote is because i was confident that both of you were scum, therefore it doesn't matter which one dies to me.

AND i never said that if i die and am found to be townie you will be killed without question. I said that the townies will probably go after the both of you.


Darox's last post is full of wishy-washiness, Again the only person she is sure of is me. She obviously can't deny the Mike situation was horrible for Armlx, but then proceeds to say he looks pretty neutral. It is blatantly obvious that these two are scum partners.

Sorry about the confusion i have caused Brandi, i have been busy finishing my first year of Law, so it's been pretty hectic. Usually when i decide to post i start rambling (like now) when i don't have the time and it results in a rushed post.
As for Darox, i thought the tiger was a kinda girly pic and i didn't see the gender sign, so i assumed he was a she. Sorry Darox.

[Bazza-Scumfinder]

Oh yeah. i have already said i have no problem whatsoever with an Armlx OR Darox killing. I'd guess that Darox is probably the role-blocker due to the signs given by Armlx at the beginning so would rather her lynch. But either will do.

Vote: Armlx

[Brandi]

I feel that Darla's last post was a bit scummy. She seems to be coming up with the idea that a persons style is an excuse to not bring any suspicion onto them. IMO, regardless of style, there are still some things that people can do and say that are just down right scummy, and Armlx has had his share of scummy actions. It also feels that perhaps shes a bit too keen on defending Armlx. Let's not forget that DBE was originally 'mike' and how quick Armlx was to defend him for speculation reasonings that should have never been insinuated. I have a feeling, a possible very lightweight feeling, that DBE/Armlx COULD be a scum pair. I'm still working on that more in depth analysis, its just taking longer than I expected and I keep going off an on to it. I know that tomorrow will probably be my last chance before I have to go to FL.

[armlx]

Armix on the other hand as I've said before, has alot to answer for

I do? Explain please.

Oh yeah. i have already said i have no problem whatsoever with an Armlx OR Darox killing. I'd guess that Darox is probably the role-blocker due to the signs given by Armlx at the beginning so would rather her lynch. But either will do.

Vote: Armlx

More blatant opportunism from Bazza.