Mini 630: Council of Eville: Game Ovah!

[Rage]

Vote: Goatrevolt

You trust his signature?

[Rage]

What's the name of scum in this game?

[Rage]

Hey guys, nowhere in the main post (or the posts with story in them for that matter) does it say what the name of Scum is in this game.

[Rage]

did some quick meta-gaming on Rage...i'm not sure what the rules are on commenting on ongoing games, but it doesn't appear that Rage is a newb...also, he is playing in another Mini game right now,

where the name of the scum were not given in the setup

, and he did not ask what the names of the scum are in that game

Information was given in my role message indicating a website to go to that has information on all the characters of the theme that the game is based on. This game is not like that Theme game. The only information I have about what Scum could be called is not a name, but hints from the story.

However, I will admit that I was fishing for a slip-up. Obviously, I am not going to get one now, but the reactions I did get out of it are pretty interesting and will not be forgotten.

[Rage]

Indeed, whatever random voting stage we had is being blown out of the water by useful discussion.

Unvote

[Rage]

Yup, I definitely agree with where Skillit is going with this.

Vote: StrangerCoug

[Rage]

Do you think alvinz's comment that StrangerCoug's vote was opportunistic and then comment that he's confirming his vote on rage to be odd?

I, the player who he kept his so called "random" vote on and then overwhelmingly tried to defend, find that awfully odd.

@Alvinz, what is the point of the random voting stage if not to look back at it afterwards? You certainly acknowledge that it starts a game, but what you have proven not to realize is that what starts a game can also finish it. Sure, you made what you believed to be a "random" vote on me at the time, therefore there is no defense of your suspicions (I have not played any previous, completed games with you) but when you look back at the stage at the end of the game most of the "random" votes have basis.

Do you buy his explanation that it was just a meaningless post and not anything serious?

This question brings out a lot of confusion. It is not that I find it a meaningless post, because there may be basis behind this "random" vote,

I would like to point out that I am currently in aboot 6 games here on Mafiascum.net, and that is excluding two off-site games (one of which I am mod-ing). I will try my best to be active as much as I possibly can, but I do not guarantee the accuracy of my posts (in any of these games, for that reason). I apologize for the inconvenience.

[Rage]

My apologies, the Submit and Preview buttons look awfully familiar after a while.

Consider the following "fixed":

Do you buy his explanation that it was just a meaningless post and not anything serious?

This question brings out a lot of confusion. It is not that I find it a "meaningless post", because there may be basis behind this "random" vote, but I do object to alvinz dismissing your suspicions of him. Classic scum behavior, and I think this is being done because he does not consider himself the "top priority" of the Town right now, however, that is just my thought on the situation. As such, I consider him to be and switch my vote. My vote on StrangerCoug was for pressure, not necessarily to start a bandwagon, and now that he has provided an excellent source for discussion I feel it is the appropriate time to put my vote where my mouth is, on my top suspicion.

Vote: alvinz95

[Rage]

This clearly states that Goat is with Coug.

I am against Alvinz using his claim to put suspicion on other players. I believe, and abide by, that if you are trying to fulfill the Townie win condition you should be willing to die for the benefit of the Town, not trying to get others down with you. What will happen "tomorrow" will happen "tomorrow", not based on the influence from your claim but based on your role, alignment and those who contributed to the lynch. If you turn up Townie, sure, you will inspire suspicion on those you claim to be suspicious of, but by no means does that prove their alignment.

OK. Just making sure we weren't doing some ridiculous stuff at another's expense.

The FoS on Goatrevolt was ultimately caused by my weak sense of humor and I seriously thought Goatrevolt wanted to policy lynch forbiddanlight for something beyond her control.

Care to explain why you said one thing but mean another? Was it your (weak) sense of humor or were you trying to make sure Goatrevolt didn't pull something ridiculous/fishy?

Unvote

This unvote is to bring out more time for discussion, or is StrangerCoug going to call me out on "opportunistic unvoting"?

[Rage]

@Mod, I can find no proof in this thread that he has posted in it.

[Rage]

This is incredibly hypocritical because you're saying that its bad for me to ask to be lynched, so you vote me.

Wrong, it would be hypocritical if he said "don't lynch alvinz95" but voted for you with that same reasoning, or even in that same post. Skillit has not said that he would not vote for you, he has only asked you a question.

I agree that what Skillit has asked alvinz95 should be answered.

[Rage]

Unvote

This unvote is to bring out more time for discussion

Rage, why would you unvote on someone who was only at 4 votes at the time to get a discussion going? Especially since your argument earlier in the post was against alvinz. To me, your unvote implies that you want a discussion about someone other than alvinz for no really good reason. And that's pretty suspicious.

Sorry, I have a lot of games to keep track of right now, one of which both Alvinz and Goatrevolt make an appearance in. To answer your question, I do not want to be part of a bandwagon that I predict will be joined by players with increased suspicions of Alvinz. I do have an increasing suspicion of him but I feel that I would only be agreeing with what everyone has said, and that does not feel right with me if I was to be part of a lynch. For pressure purposes, I feel adding my vote is sometimes necessary. Although, I feel that him trying to pin the responsibility of the current pressure on him on Goatrevolt and StrangerCoug is not helping his call to be lynched, so I do not quite know where I stand on this issue. I feel that further discussion from every player possible will help my decision.

[Rage]

How are we supposed to determine someone's alignment if anything they say can be dismissed as an opinion?

You can't dismiss your own opinions if you speak on a matter because the fact is that you have said it. This is where intentions come into play and things get dizzy, so I probably should've asked first whether this question was rhetorical or not

Waiting for forbiddanlight's and Megatheory's analysis of what's going on, then I should pop my head in.

[Rage]

Vote: Alvinz

Is it just me or is alvinz seeming more and more like a liability to Town each time he posts?

And why you say why do they brush off my actions?

lol, when your actions consist of "You're scum because you agree with someone I think is scum!" I think it is pretty appropriate to "brush them off".

[Rage]

Liability as in "I do not want him to survive in the endgame". I think the pressure against him brought 'scum backed into a corner' but wasn't quite worthy of a lynch. The overall pressure on StrangerCoug looks to me like a

distraction

, if you will, from the pressure on Alvinz and ), and as the pressure dies he's been turning into 'unhelpful townie' (townie meaning part of the town, not pro-town).

Following in Forbiddanlight's lead, I'll come up with a read on each player soon. Might even ask a few questions, you never know.

[Rage]

EBYOP:

I think the pressure against him brought

out

'scum backed into a corner' but wasn't quite worthy of a lynch

[Rage]

I need more votes please.

[Rage]

I need more votes please.

Why should I entertain your suicidal wishes?

What makes you think I'm suicidal?

[Rage]

Will be out all day, and back online very late. More votes would be appreciated.

[Rage]

@GR, please don't mistake my call for votes a defense. I wanted to see who bandwagonned, which so far happens to be you. Thanks for that.

I'll be on vacation August 2nd (tomorrow) to August 6th, great timing, eh? Extremely limited access to a computer.

@Mod, replace me if need be.

[Rage]

Yeah, because I'd give up precisely what I was doing to someone who most recently voted me and gave reasons for it related to bandwagoning. Though I'll admit, that is actually more than what others on the wagon have done, but I'll be pointing out what the reasons given for each post were later

if

I don't get replaced.

More votes, anyone? NOW is the chance to bandwagon! Goatrevolt, cerebus3 and Megatheory have all done it, so can you! No? Then is anyone, other than myself, going to at least look at WHY people are voting for me? I won't be putting up much of a fight in the next week or so (vacation, remember?) and I'm thinking it would be the Town's best interest to know precisely why before they lose another member from a night-kill.

@Jshark, what's up with this?

Well your explanation for your actions was pretty much nonexistent so I'm happy with my vote.

You never specified what I was supposed to explain in your other posts before my vote against Alvinz. And "for my actions", hmm, what particular "actions" are you talking about, and when I voted for alvinz did that not suffice? If you have a problem with that, please say so and I'll explain. Something else? Point it out. But do note that I may note respond for quite a while due to limited computer access.

@Megatheory

I think he may have been trying to redirect from Skillit, acting extra scummy just prior to his trip thinking this town would be reluctant to lynch him after the SC and alvinz affairs.

Proof please.

@Goatrevolt, I've noticed that you are acting fairly different than your earlier approach to this game. You almost seem eager for a lynch. As examples of what I recall finding fishy, explaining Avlinz's use of the term "buss" (doesn't matter how it's spelt, we all know what it means and the reactions to it) in this post:

He almost certainly simply misused the term or doesn't really understand what it means. I wouldn't read too much into that.

Where is your justification?

And:

Sorry, I don't buy the "more votes on me please, defense." If you're not even willing to try to

validate your stances

this game, I'm seeing no reason not to just lynch you.

How about we don't hammer or do anything of the like until we extract a claim and make sure we want to end the day.

In the first quote, you say you see no reason not to just lynch me I assume you mean apply more evidence than just bandwagoning instead of controlling the Town's actions) but in the second you want a claim out of me. Explain please.

Also, I don't quite know what stance

you

want me to validate.

Oh, and StrangerCoug hasn't denied Alvinz's words by saying:

If I am trying to bus you (as the present tense is spelled), then that means that not only I but you as well are scum and I'm trying to get rid of you to make me appear more innocent. Way to set off alarm bells.

He's just saying that IF he's bussing Alvinz, it would mean he is scum trying to appear more innocent. StrangerCoug, could you kindly clear this matter up?

You didn't say for whom, so I assumed yourself by your statement. If this is not your intent, then please clarify your statement.

I need more votes against me please. Hey, did you like how I ended this post with that as my last note?

[Rage]

Mmkay, I have read everything so far (up to this post) and I'm going to deal with what has been asked of me over the next couple of days, but that's an estimate because I'm not sure when I'm going to get the time to post. Just know that I'd rather have a vanilla lynched at this point in the game than potential pro-town power roles claiming, and although I do think alvinz is scum, he probably won't be lynched today. I'd much rather it be me. Anywhoo, I'm not sure how many votes there are against me now, but, to me, it can't hurt to claim now. I am a Council Member.

When I get the chance to spend a lot of time writing (probably around when my vacation is over) I'll be looking at the votes against me more. And, to the players withholding their votes simply because I'm on vacation, please don't. I'd like to know that you want the Town to know where you stand on the Rage issue, or any issue for that matter, so you should probably have a better reason not to vote for me. And as you can see, I am still reading.

[Rage]

Huh? I'm not trying to get lynched, I'm trying to see who wants to bandwagon on me.

If you want me to be more specific I thought post 260 was pretty scummy

What do you find scummy about that post?

In other words, you're essentially claiming vanilla, and not a power role, correct?

Do you not know what a Council Member is?

PBPA

What's that?

[Rage]

Yes and no. I actually see where SC is coming from, since it felt like some of the votes on him were merely pressure, and to have those fly so quickly is definitely something that might cause panic in a newer player. I mean, skillit's case was decent, but still not air tight. SC shouldn't have been wagoned so easily, even if a few of his actions were scummy.

Problem is, I don't think StrangerCoug is a newer player. He's in tons of games, and although I don't know much about

him

, this is my first game with him, I do think that the more games the better, because as both Town and Scum you get to know a lot more about players' playstyles and role-tells. But, frankly, I don't know why he would be acting the same way after all of the games he has been in, so perhaps after all that time it has ultimately come down to an excuse to act scummy on Day 1.

[Rage]

Huh? I'm not trying to get lynched, I'm trying to see who wants to bandwagon on me.

To what end? How is that pro-town at all?

There can only be so much scum in this game. My role is one that the Town can afford to lose on Day 1.

Oh, and, nice opportunistic FoSing, StrangerCoug.

[Rage]

Why, hello again! I've been following the game, so it should not take too long for me to get a hearty post up. So, anyways, I'm confirming that I've received my role.

Yipee!

[Rage]

Don't worry, there's post coming up! I shall bring up stuff from the past and talk about the current suspicions, namely Alvinz, Cerebus and Forbiddanlight, but I will post something about everyone in this game.

Also, I should have thought of this before replacing, but I'm away for the weekend (August 30 - September 1) with absolutely no internet access. I hope that isn't too much of an interruption, but to make the best of it beforehand I'm going to post as much as I can, and respond to what is asked of me.

[Rage]

Okay, I'm sorry, but I cannot post what I have prepared until I get back on Tuesday, or late Monday. I'd like some time to go much more in depth with everyone than I have so far, and I'm sure everyone else would appreciate it too.

Just don't end the day without me, mmkay?

[Rage]

Returned and am currently catching up, but I couldn't help but notice what's going on right now.

What do you think of #752? Do you see it as a slip?

How could it be a slip? Essentially, what you are saying is that if it is a slip then he is a Cop and you must be scum, but then why are you advocating for what I can only assume to be a claim? Eventually, that is.

I don't get how it could be any sort of a "slip". Cops don't really "slip", and "I know" doesn't sound too much like a scum slip to me, unless he was planning to bus you by revealing his own alignment, which would be silly and oh-so nooby. So, essentially what you are saying is that if indeed he is a Cop you, StrangerCoug, are anti-town, but then why are you advocating for more information? Another claim from alvinz95? Didn't he already say he was a vanilla?

I'll return to my usual activity in the morning. Now, sleep!

[Rage]

Crap, I pressed Submit too early.

Here is my pre-edited version of what I wanted to say:

What do you think of #752? Do you see it as a slip?

How could it be a slip? Essentially, what you are saying is that if it is a slip then he is a Cop and you must be scum, but then why are you advocating for what I can only assume to be a claim? Eventually, that is.

And here is my edited version:

I don't get how it could be any sort of a "slip". Cops don't really "slip", and "I know" doesn't sound too much like a scum slip to me, unless he was planning to bus you by revealing his own alignment, which would be silly and oh-so nooby. So, essentially what you are saying is that if indeed he is a Cop you, StrangerCoug, are anti-town, but then why are you advocating for more information? Another claim from alvinz95? Didn't he already say he was a vanilla?

Ugh.

[Rage]

Rage: Where's that post you promised? I don't care if it has the recent stuff, I just want your thoughts up till you joined the game.

As and you shall receive,

Up until the point where I replaced Jshark:

BridgesAndBaloons reviewed Goatrevolt's votes, which I think is an accurate analysis

forbiddanlight was under the impression that Skillit is scum, which is based on her thinking he hid something in his posts, or filled them with a bunch of "noise". But then sthar8 provided a PBPA of her posts and came up with the result of nearly 50% noise. As of right now, forbiddanlight still hasn't provided much reasoning behind her ever-consistent suspicion of Skillit.

@Forbiddanlight, I'm going to try to get one of these up too, but could you post a PBPA of Skillit's posts, much like sthar8 did with you, with a Noise to Signal ratio? I don't mean to give you any sort of wiggle room here, I just want to know if you have something behind your view of Skillit (or the way he posts) or if it is just baseless suspicion.

@Sthar8, how did you analyze forbiddanlight's posts for your PBPA? Did you go into a view of all her posts and weed out the ones from other games?

Moving on, alvinz listed his "I see these as possible scum teams" a few pages back, but didn't provide any reasons beyond "I see these as being possible", and that's giving him more credit that he deserves.

@Alvinz, do you "know" if Goatrevolt or Forbiddanlight are scum? If not, why do you suspect either one to be scumbuddies with StrangerCoug? And how do you "know" that StrangerCoug is scum?

Right now I see your suspicions of GR, FL and SC much like I do forbiddanlight's suspicion of Skillit. Baseless suspicion. And your admittance of tunnel-vision is not very appealing, either.

Finally, forbiddanlight, do you think that quoting someone out of chronological order is a bad thing?

@Everyone, I wrote this rather quickly, so if there is anything you feel that I have missed please point it out and I'll address it/state my thoughts about it. Thanks.

[Rage]

EBWOP:

As

k

and you shall receive,

[Rage]

@Forbiddanlight, I'm going to try to get one of these up too, but could you post a PBPA of Skillit's posts, much like sthar8 did with you, with a Noise to Signal ratio? I don't mean to give you any sort of wiggle room here, I just want to know if you have something behind your view of Skillit (or the way he posts) or if it is just baseless suspicion.

Have you read any of my posts? I already did an PBPA. May not have been noise to signal per se, but it was close e fucking nough. Everyone found it stupid. So, screw it, you can find it your own damn self.

Uh.. okay.. I'll go look for it. I'm not very confident about your suspicion of Skillit right now, but I'll take a look nonetheless.

Finally, forbiddanlight, do you think that quoting someone out of chronological order is a bad thing?

Because it's a great way to make a disjointed progression of suspicions to fake an inconsistency.[/quote]I somewhat agree, because sometimes things draw your attention away , but it's odd that you think that, because you've done it a few times, even during your clash with Goatrevolt for quoting you out of chronological order. Take a look at your own post #586 if you don't believe me.

The bulk of my suspicions go towards Forbiddanlight, for blatant hypocrisy across the board, but I am not cool at all with anyone placing a hammer right now. Right now I'm going to comment on a couple of the quieter players, and by tomorrow I should be able to get a post in about the wide variety of pressure we have now. School just started, so I'm limited to posting in the evening. Anyways:

Cerebus strikes (striked, since he's probably going to be replaced) me as a pro-town, rare-contributor rather than an inconsistent-posting scum, like others may have thought throughout the game. Most of the time he asks pro-town questions to players being pressured at the time, and has had his share of pressure, but most of it has died down by now. As such, he isn't high on my list of scummy players, but I'd be willing to look into him more because my (current) role doesn't allow me to trust anyone and I don't like following any one player's every word.

Veerus, on the other hand, gives me the impression of a sometimes-contributing scum, but upon my quick reread, he hasn't done anything scummy to warrant my vote. It's just mild suspicion, because he sometimes pops his head in to sum up what's being said, and adds his opinion when he can. I would consider that pro-town, if he did more than just that for the majority of the game. As such, I don't have much of a read on him, but if I had to place him somewhere I'd put him in the center of the hypothetical list, meaning my eye could easily drift either towards or away from him, and he is not someone I'd want to vote for right now.

More to come later.

[Rage]

I think I'm really dragging this game on, and I'm not sure I can post as actively as everyone else here does, so who would object to my replacement?

That is, if Moderator is willing to scour the interwebz again.

[Rage]

Okay, to kickstart my devotion to this game, I'm putting together a PBPA of alvinz. It should be fun to read.. that is, if you aren't alvinz.

[Rage]

This is also quite a turn-around from your earlier posts. You've spent the past 3 weeks attacking FL, giving well-presented justifications and examples of her scumminess and then suddenly you do a 180 and declare that she's not even a top 3 suspect? This looks like an

opportunistic

attempt to save your partner in a quick bandwagon right before the deadline now that there has been enough suspicion cast on some other people. FOS: Goatrevolt

If you had to use a word or a phrase other than "opportunistic", what would you say instead?

Other than that one word, I agree with you but I'd like to hear Goatrevolt's reasons for being suspicious of you, so much so that you've earned Top 3, before I start pressuring either way.

Honestly, I am an INCREDIBLY easy mislynch right now, and to throw that away seems...rather counterintuitive for scum.

Actually, to me it seems like scum doesn't want to lynch one of their own, not that you are an easy mislynch. You've been close to being lynched a couple times but most of the pressure is on and off, unlike the Rage v. 1.0 lynch. He was lynched because the Town didn't support him and found flaws in his logic, but you remain alive because new information pops up, which has been full of WIFOM, and most of the players who advocated against you are tired of bringing up more of what you've said, so they focus on other possible scums. I'm thinking that eventually you will be lynched because of this confusion, and I hope it doesn't come down to that in endgame.

Oh, and my PBPA is making progress, but as of right now I'd like to say that I'm under the impression that this game is not made up of 3 scum. Rather, more. I haven't seen any patterns to indicate 3, only 2, and that could just as easily be me seen Townies agree with each other. The theory that I've seen to be the strongest to indicate a scum-group of 3, or the strongest example of this belief, is alvinz "knowing" StrangerCoug is scum, which

would

have pushed his theory of SC/FL and GR being scum, if he backed it up at all. Which leads me to,

@Alvinz

, I do think you're on to something, but you have no hook to draw anyone else to your side. You claim to "know" StrangerCoug is scum, but your contributions include claiming Vanilla and admitting to Tunnel-Vision, which lead the Town to dismiss your accusations. We've seen this to be true because nobody else "knows" that StrangerCoug is scum! This is just like how you've dismissed evidence to try to prove that StrangerCoug is scum. Or Goatrevolt, or Forbiddanlight. You see, it doesn't matter what

your

alignment in this game is, it matters what proof you have to accuse StrangerCoug of being scum, or anyone else for that matter.

Finally, I'm accusing you of being scum. But this isn't because you haven't backed up your suspicions, this is because of your interactions with your suspects. Firstly, you haven't said anything to Forbiddanlight regarding your suspicion of her, and you have made conversation with StrangerCoug and Goatrevolt. Early Day 1 you and Goatrevolt pressured each other, and the pressure later subsided, and now, earlier today, you say you "know" StrangerCoug is scum, but the pressure here was and is being ignored. These three players are the ones you think are scum, and that they together.

Therefore, I don't think you are an unhelpful townie, I think you are unhelpful scum. And therefore, my two most suspicious suspects are Alvinz and Forbiddanlight. But, you know what, alvinz? I'd love it if you proved me wrong! Find

something

to base your suspicions on, and something to prove you're just an unhelpful townie (which would be helpful, and you wouldn't be so unhelpful) rather than someone who can't come up with a response. And, please, don't just say "I know you're scum, Rage", because that will most definitely get you lynched.


---
Phew.

[Rage]

@forbiddanlight, still not commenting on any of alvinz plays? How.. peculiar.

[Rage]

@forbiddanlight, I forgot to mention, but you still seem to be set on the fact that the Town has decided to lynch you. If that were the case, the deadline wouldn't have been implemented and you would have be eliminated. That is not what has happened, because there are other options. And we have to put this day to use anyhow.

[Rage]

we're now at L-1, just so everyone knows.

Let me be specific: Is there anyone who doesn't want the day to end yet? Why?

I'd like to complete my PBPA before I get a chance to die, but if the Town reaches a consensus to move on, I say go for it. I don't think Rage 2.0 has done much to offend scum, that is, he's probably only offended alvinz.

Speaking of alvinz, I'd like to hear from him before forbiddanlight is lynched.

And obviously Rage is haunting me

I thought I told Rage v. 1.0 to stop doing that.. and Rage v. 2.0 is way more suspicious of Alvinz.

[Rage]

Goat, you're just too good at being mafia that I see right through it. I'm not going to bother reading walls of text. FL/SC/Goat any of the possibilities. If i'm wrong? Screw it.

Should I really be posting a PBPA of you if you're going to add really scummy posts like this? I'm tempted to vote for you right now!

[Rage]

PBPA is coming along fine, but I would like to hear from alvinz before I post it. If he doesn't post by the time I'm done, I will still be posting it, however.

[Rage]

What if I don't concede your points?

Maybe I'm just choosing to not respond because I know that will drag the conversation out, intent on talking until you convince me

.

You will not convince me of your own alignment.

Ever.

Bolded:

If you're not going to respond, why should he? Goatrevolt has presented his defense, but says you haven't , why don't you change that? I'm not necessarily taking Goat's side here, in fact I strongly agree that both you and him should be acknowledging each other's posts before you make accusations.

If I remember correctly, I'm seeing both of you make mistakes about what the other has said a lot, and I'm not liking it.

Italic's/Underlined

(You added this, not me, but I'm commenting on it): Is there something you know that the rest of the Town don't?

Either:
1) I'm calling out a Cop to claim, which wouldn't be too smart to do if there's a Cult (no night kills, "council" game, meaning there is the possibility of some sort of corruption involved) nor a Mafia choosing not to kill
2) Or I'm calling you out on "knowing" Goatrevolt is scum.

I'd like to think the latter, but I want to know what others think of this.

And, although this is very recent, it's attention-worthy. Three consecutive posts are as follows:

If she's town.. then I'm truly at a loss.. She has shown such a mountain of tells that if she's not scum, I would have to re-read the whole game from the start. It would make sense however that the possible scum would be the ones she attacked -- skillit and alvinz.

Well, a re read is always good. Sorry to add extra work. I suppose I fill the too scummy tell?

Yep, BaB is scum in both of my scenarios, so I should be voting him.

Unvote, Vote BridgesAndBalloons

I'm going to continue my attack on sthar, though, as I also believe him to be scum and would like to keep pressure there as well. However, it's been over 24 hours since I've last slept, so I'm going to sleep. I'll address sthar/veerus tomorrow.

Well, I could definitely get behind a BaB lynch. Though I'd like an alvinz one as well.

Unvote, vote BaB

That's L-3.

Forbiddanlight's filling the "too scummy" tell, all right. I see this as very obvious buddying.

[Rage]

Bolded:

If you're not going to respond, why should he? Goatrevolt has presented his defense,

but says you haven't responded to it, so

why don't you change that? I'm not necessarily taking Goat's side here, in fact I strongly agree that both you and him should be acknowledging each other's posts before you make accusations.

Fixed, underlined.

[Rage]

I am resisting the temptation to insult alvinz95 right now, but in any event, he's still not being of any help.

I'm tempted to give up my PBPA. I mean, I probably won't, but I don't like that I've asked alvinz several times to respond to my question, yet when he makes a post he does no such thing, and responds to someone he has admitted to having tunnel-vision on.

I'm also very tempted to vote for him, but if that's going to happen, that'll come after I've presented the PBPA.

[Rage]

Crap, my internet has been cutting out a lot all day, so I'm not sure if I can dedicate much time to my PBPA of alvinz. I'm almost done, though.

[Rage]

My PBPA is so close to posting, it can be smelt miles away.

[Rage]

Okay, I'm going to post part of my PBPA so that alvinz has time to respond to it. I'd prefer everyone read it so that they can tell me if they agree/disagree or if I'm misrepresenting alvinz at any point.

Post 0

: Begins the game by voting Rage v. 1.0, no reason given.

Post 1

: Goatrevolt had just voted for Rage 1.0 because he asked what the name of the scum were in the game, and StrangerCoug said he agreed, accompanied with his vote. In this post, alvinz made a 'comment' about what he thought of StrangerCoug's vote, and said that his vote will remain on Rage 1.0.

I have an issue with this post, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post it, since it may be a conflict of interest because I do

resemble

Rage 1.0

*hint hint*

.

Post 2

: When questioned by Goatrevolt about

Post 1

, alvinz says that he thought we were "still in the random stage" and that he didn't see anything wrong with what Rage 1.0 said to defend himself.

I do not see where alvinz has said before this post that he was stating that we were in the random stage. I don't have a problem with his thought of Rage 1.0's defense.

Post 3

: When questioned again by Goatrevolt (GR's fifth post, explaining that alvinz's answer does not fit) alvinz says:

I was merely stating we are still in the random stage.
Really, I don't see anything that bad in what he said, and he defended it well enough.

Wait a sec, this doesn't fit. Why would we still be in the random phase? You even commented that StrangerCoug's vote was opportunistic, which is real discussion, suggesting that we're out of the random phase. My vote and SC's vote on Rage at that point were both real votes. We were definitely out of the random phase. Also, if you thought we were still in the random phase, why would you say "But anyway, vote stays." Why would you feel the need to point out that you're keeping your random vote on? That doesn't really make sense.

Unvote, Vote alvinz95

Pouncing on something measley is opportunistic,

regardless

of what stage we are in. So I'm guessing that the whole purpose of your vote is that it doesn't make sense? Calm down... Really, you need to lay off a bit during the random stage.

Really, your super eagerness to start lynching gives bad vibes. What did you hope to achieve with your vote? Why did you vote hop from Rage to me? Is my confusing play more scummy? Would you be happy if I was the lynch today? Is your "real" vote used for pointing out scumminess or as to point who you want to lynch?

Firstly, for the first sentence of the first paragraph, alvinz makes a relatively hypocritical analysis. He says that something is opportunistic if someone pounces on something measly, but he was pouncing on both StrangerCoug

and

Goatrevolt (association by vote, 'questioning' the bandwagon) by calling StrangerCoug's vote on Rage 1.0 opportunistic.

Secondly, he interprets Goatrevolt's attack on him, apparently coupled with his vote "hop" from Rage 1.0 to alvinz, as being super-eager for a lynch.

Post 4 + 5

: Alvinz accuses StrangerCoug of being "with" Goatrevolt, which I can only assume alvinz stated to keep a closer eye on him, and accuses StrangerCoug of following Goatrevolt. He makes the assumption that StrangerCoug didn't notice alvinz's hypocrisy, which alvinz does not defend nor deny, until Goatrevolt said it. Then, states an example of StrangerCoug buddying with Goatrevolt. He then unvotes Rage 1.0.

Without taking into consideration of what came before and after this post, I'd think it would've been a pretty strong reason to pressure StrangerCoug.

Post 6

: Answers questions from Goatrevolt with:

People seem sad that the random phase has ended.

alvinz:

If it was still the random phase, as you suggest, then why did you feel the need to assert that you were keeping your random vote on Rage? If it was still the random phase, then why were you accusing SC of an opportunistic vote? Wouldn't you be able to classify your attack on SC as pouncing on something measly?

Could you answer those for me, por favor?

NO! Jk.

It was a basic comment, not intended as an "accusation of scumminess". Hence that we were in the RANDOM STAGE.

Now, I think that making a comment in any game of mafia, nor matter how "basic" it is, is an accusation of some sort. This is because you are drawing attention to something, which makes other players think about it. Therefore, anything you say in a game of mafia is up to other player's interpretation, and you should expect some sort of resistance to anything you say. Not everyone is going to agree with you, especially if you are Town, and if they do, that's a good indication that you are a manipulative scum, but I won't dwell on that because it has nothing to do with the case against you.

Also, I agree with Goatrevolt that as soon as discussion about the random votes occurs, you are no longer in the Random Stage.

Post 7

: Alvinz accuses StrangerCoug of OMGUSing Skillit. Then, says he doesn't want to continue the debate about what he considers random stage moves. Finally, he questioned the use of Goatrevolt questioning him about why he asserted that he would keep his random vote on Rage 1.0, which at this point has now been taken off.

I think that if you have nothing to add to an argument, either side, don't say anything at all. Plus, if you aren't willing to outright express your opinion, which in this case one can assume Alvinz doesn't like StrangerCoug's defense. This assumption then can lead to many more assumptions, mine being "You don't like his defense because you are in another argument with him and want as many people on your side as possible". Now, it isn't necessarily a bad thing to think this way, and you should assume the opposition always thinks this, but by making another 'comment' that draws attention to something someone has said (who, again, is StrangerCoug) is not smart considering you have already been called out on doing that before.

I also can't help but think of "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".

Second, random votes are the basis of any mafia game. Why do we have them in the first place? To generate discussion! Therefore, the moves of the random stage are valid and open to interpretation. Also, this isn't the place to argue about the existence of the Random Voting Stage, especially considering how everyone except two people (Megatheory/Twiglees and BaB/GhostWriter) participated in it.

Post 8

: Skillit had posted a case on StrangerCoug (post #56) which was defended by SC, and brought up more to defend it. The two posts between Skillit's #56 and StrangerCoug's defense (post #59) consisted of Rage 1.0 agreeing with Skillit and voting for SC, and then alvinz saying he thinks Skillit is good at this game.

I don't have anything to say, attacking or defending alvinz, about this post, just that I don't like it and could be an indication of who alvinz is scum with if he or Skillit flip scum.

Post 9

: Alvinz quotes StrangerCoug's FoS on Rage 1.0 for "opportunistic voting" and calls it self explanatory, adding to his weak case against StrangerCoug. Then, states that he doesn't like SC's defense and thinks 2-3 of his moves are scummy.

This post is self-explanatory of alvinz's case on StrangerCoug. I would call his case nonsensical, because he hasn't provided any evidence against StrangerCoug whatsoever. Although this does show an early indication of "I know you're scum, StrangerCoug" like alvinz has now said, if he still does not go to the liberty of coming up with evidence, I think he should be under scrutiny from the other players as soon as possible.

Post 10

: Alvinz laughs at StrangerCoug calling him out on an opportunistic vote, and voting him for making it. Alvinz calls StrangerCoug's post (I assume) scummy and defends his vote with the following:

FoS: Rage for opportunistic voting, before I forget.

.....
[self explanitory]

I don't really like your defense. Right now, I see you as the most scummy after about 2-3 scummy moves.

Vote: Strangecoug

When I FoS somebody for opportunistic voting, you do

NOT

make another opportunistic vote the post after I call it out.

Unvote: Skillit
Vote: alvinz95

I lol'ed.

But this is insanely scummy and my vote is not opportunistic because I actually have a basis.

1. OMGUS?
2. Bad defense
3. Hypocritical in opportunistic voting
4. Lack of consistency (you only FOS rage)

Again, Alvinz does not explain what he thinks is scummy, and has now brought up three more points as reason to vote for him, even though he originally voted for #2, Bad Defense. He did mention OMGUS earlier, but did not develop on it at all and has only brought it up now. #1, #3 and #4 were not stated when he actually voted for StrangerCoug, and #1 was mentioned between alvinz's Vote post and Reasons post by Forbiddanlight (post #62) as well as mocked by Cerebus3 (post #63). Notice that #1 is #1, even though Alvinz's reason in his Vote post is #2, Bad Defense.

Post 11

: We return to the argument between Alvinz and Goatrevolt, this time revolving around "not talking about dumb random stage moves". So far, this is the first post where I've seen alvinz give effort in defending himself, so I'll work with this post bit by bit:

I'm not, because discussing what happens in the random stage is not dumb, and your complete dismissal of my questions directed at you really is not pro-town at all. If you think posts in the random stage are dumb and should just be ignored then I suggest you look at Mini 604. Dcorbe was correctly called out as scum for his very first post of the game. The way you dismiss my arguments or simply brush over them without suitably addressing my concerns doesn't give me good vibes.

1. I haven't dismissed any of your questions.
2. Did I say all moves in the random are dumb?
3. Detracts from real discussion such as Strangecoug, which you don't attack viciously like Rage and mine.

1. You have answered them half-assed, as though you simply want to forget what you have said before. Mafia doesn’t work that way.
2. You said the random stage move you made was dumb, but you stick by it.
3. This is real discussion, and I see this as being dismissive of your actions.

It (a question asked to Alvinz by GR, dismissed by Alvinz) absolutely does matter. I think you've been contradictory. You claim you're keeping your vote on Rage, when he has a real wagon on him with non-random phase votes. Then when I ask you about it, you claim it was just a random vote. I've never seen anyone say "Vote Stands" when talking about a random vote unless they're actually turning it into a serious vote.

Its a matter of opinion for god sake. You think it was a real wagon, I thought it was a fake wagon/random. And that doesn't have anything to do with contradictory (me having the "trouble" to say vote stays).

Alvinz, why did you keep your random vote on Rage 1.0, early Day 1? I’m not asking why you said “But anyways, vote stays” I’m asking you why you decided it should stay in the first place.

Dude, StrangerCoug, people jumping on a bandwagon is not a scummy action by itself. You can't just vote everyone who jumps on your bandwagon. If someone is voting you for poor reasons, by all means, point it out, but jumping on every single player who votes you is not productive at all.

I'm not a fan of Coug's play, but he's been lynched as town in both of the other games I've played with him for similar type stuff, so I want to compare his posting in this game with his posting in those games before making a decision here.

I've seen this countless times done by scum to their partners. Seems like you're just giving him advice and lecturing him rather than attacking him for scummy like you've done to Rage and me which is not consistent and rather contradictory. You are semi-supporting him by using a meta. I have been in a few games with him and he has NOT acted like this. What makes this even more convincing to me is how you barely even bothered to attack him.

FoS: Goatrevolt

[/quote]Alvinz, would you please direct us to a game where you have played with StrangerCoug and he has not acted panicky against his attackers? I think we should see both sides of this, because StrangerCoug's meta did help him from not being lynched early Day 1.

Also, at that point, I can see why you thought StrangerCoug was scummy. But if you are Town, your perspective is very different than everyone else’s. You see, you are not seeing someone else be hypocritical, which in this case is you keeping a vote on a player that, at the time, a bandwagon was starting to form on. If you disagree with the reasons against a player, don’t keep your vote on him/her.

Post 12

: Alvinz replies to Goatrevolt calling him 100% Contradictory. Alvinz explains that he has already said that his 'comment' of calling StrangerCoug's vote on Rage 1.0 was not an accusation of scumminess and that he does not understand why Goatrevolt is attacking him. And again, does not realize the benefit of a random voting stage.

I have expressed my thoughts on this part of the post already, as the content has appeared before.

Next, alvinz calls Goatrevolt scummy for two reasons. First, alvinz accuses Goatrevolt of not being consistent at scumhunting because he attacked one player's move then voted both alvinz and Rage and, according to alvinz, called one of StrangerCoug's plays scummy without bothering to FoS.

At this point, I do not think alvinz's is interpreting Goatrevolt's side of the argument very well. For one thing, one player is given the right to have suspicions on who they choose. If you think that Goatrevolt is choosing his suspicions based on some outsider knowledge, then say it to get people to agree with you. Otherwise, you're assumption is yours and yours alone, and the longer you try to press this the more it's ignored. We've seen this happen, because when BridgesAndBaloons replaced into the game and posted a case on Goatrevolt, you said someone finally agreed with you.

Second, alvinz makes the assumption that Goatrevolt is giving StrangerCoug advice rather than pointing out his scumminess. Again, this is a matter of opinion, seeing as on Goatrevolt's side we have a player, alvinz, accusing him of not being as hard on StrangerCoug as he is on Alvinz or Rage 1.0, but on Alvinz side, he says that this is unfair and unjust.

Again, this is a matter of opinion, seeing as how on Goatrevolt's side we have a player upset about how Goatrevolt is treating his suspicions, but on Alvinz side, we have a player being more hard on his pressure against Alvinz than StrangerCoug.

Finally, alvinz has a misconception of OMGUS. The acronym is used to associate a player being suspicious of a player for being suspicious of him, in return. At least, that's my outlook on the term.

Post 13

: Alvinz had misused the meaning of "downplay" in his previous post, and he meant resolve. He does not answer the rest of the quote at all, so this is another example of being dismissive although he was accused of being dismissive earlier. In that case, this is proof that he has not adapted and learned that he must address what is against him.

Next, alvinz responds only to the first sentence of this 4 paragraph quote. He says "if you don't buy anything in this game, you'll get no where", but I don't understand that at all. If you're a Townie, you can't believe a word anyone else says, and if you are Scum or Cop, then you can buy what your partner says or what your investigation results give you, respectively.

Next, alvinz again makes no comment on the reasons why Goatrevolt is pressuring him, and instead deflects attention on his actions (he uses 5 of them) by questioning why Goatrevolt isn't as suspicious as two players that have said things (in the quote below) that alvinz has only brought up now.

There are a number of problems with this quote. First, as I mentioned, he only brings this up now. Second, the second quote from a player is from himself. His second post in this game is about . The next problem deserves a whole new paragraph.

Third, he does not address the reasons presented against him, most importantly the third paragraph of the first quote by Goatrevolt in the quote above, and deflects instead, one of the reasons being hypocritical, and the other is one that he has said that he thought was defended well enough.

Finally, he again dismisses more pressure against him by saying "Fine by me". Now, I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I am very tired of this attitude at this point and will not present much against further "Fine by me"s he says.

Post 14

: Dismisses more, saying Goatrevolt's scumminess system is "really fucked up. That's all i have to say".

Post 15

: Makes an attack on StrangerCoug, which turns out to be based on a misinterpretation.

Post 16

: Alvinz is now at L-2. Says the wagon on him is scum-riddled, with "StrangerCoug's 'strange' interactions with Goat, Goat's persistence on a random vote move". Says he's very sure the scum are StrangerCoug and Goatrevolt. Thinks StrangerCoug's latest FoS (against Goatrevolt for saying to "Lynch all liars" because Forbiddanlight's plans fell through, unFoSed before this post) is an attempt at distancing because it apparently "closed the deal" and the "witty defense closed it completely". Tells players to realize what arguments are used against him, in opposition to his argument against StrangerCoug's "numerous scummy moves" and he lists examples. This is the first time he's explained this, and it should not be, because this post, or rather paragraph, should be dedicated to his claim. He says the case on him is weak and claims Council Member. Doesn't have much belief that this claim will hold up, and is confident that StrangerCoug or Goatrevolt will be lynched Day 2 (today).

Post 17

: Doesn't understand why people "can't see what Coug did" and why it isn't as bad as his dumb post.

This is weak, probably unintended, deflecting onto StrangerCoug.

Post 18

: Accuses Goatrevolt of being hypocritical because he says that Goatrevolt said he wasn't going for a lynch with what alvinz did, which even alvinz has admitted to being a dumb move (last post, and as "I'm done talking about dumb random moves" in Post 7), and notices that Goatrevolt is now going for an alvinz lynch. Then says that this states that Goatrevolt is "with" StrangerCoug, which I can only assume means alvinz is calling Goatrevolt scum-partners with StrangerCoug.

Fails to realize that times have changed and that you cannot trust one player's word from the beginning of the game at a point in the game where he has continued to pressure the player. It does NOT state that Goatrevolt is "with" StrangerCoug, and there is no proof to indicate this.

Post 19

: Alvinz strongly encourages a StrangerCoug lynch, because " his play has been blindingly scummy STILL".

What does "blindingly scummy" mean and how is he still it? This post is not backed up by alvinz.

Post 20

: Skillit has said that Alvinz's moves are scummy, but that does not prove he is scum, and wants to hear "why alvinz thinks the Town should end the day". Alvinz responds to Skillit with "Nothing more, vote stands. Lynch, me, lynch scum tomorrow".

Dismissive attitude equals horrible defense.

Post 21

: Asks why Goatrevolt thinks Alvinz's attitude is so wrong, even though he explains it in the rest of the paragraph. Also expects much to be deduced from Day 1.

As an example of recent events, Forbiddanlight has asked to be lynched in order to prove suspicions of her as scum-partners with others wrong, and has claimed, in my opinion, too many times that she will flip Town, and has also claimed Council Member. Alvinz doesn't provide anything to notice while we "deduce from day 1", if he were to be lynched, whereas Forbiddanlight has, and they both have claimed Council Member. Both have asked to be lynched, Forbiddanlight outright asked and Alvinz said he wanted to be to prove people wrong.

Anyways, I think this post is quote-worthy:

Nothing more, vote stands. Lynch, me, lynch scum tomorrow.

That's so wrong. This isn't an either/or situation. Both you and SC could be town. If we lynch you and you are town, then lynching SC based solely on your word would be really dumb. What if you're both town? Then we're in deep trouble.

Why is it so wrong? Of course he could be town. What if he isn't? Why can't we deduce from day 1?

Of course YOU could be town. What if YOU are scum? I say we lynch you for the same reason you want StrangerCoug lynched, because you think he's scum. Hold on, now you "know" he's scum, but that doesn't mean anything because you're a Council Member, right?

I think you should've been lynched at this point for using a crap and hypocritical reason to want StrangerCoug lynched. It's because you THINK he's scum, but hold on, now you KNOW he's scum. I hope you realize that that does not mean anything to anyone else because you're a Council Member, right? And if you are, then you have no association with anyone else in this game, right? Why can we take your word that StrangerCoug is scum, and not take StrangerCoug's word on anything else?

Post 22

: Doesn't know what question Skillit is asking Alvinz to answer (it wasn't in the phrase of a question, but it was something Skillit wanted to hear nonetheless), and accuses Skillit of being hypocritical for a misrepresentation. Alvinz thought Skillit said it was a bad thing for alvinz to be asked to be lynched, and Skillit voted for him. That is not hypocritical.

Rage 1.0 answered this very well.

This is incredibly hypocritical because you're saying that its bad for me to ask to be lynched, so you vote me.

Wrong, it would be hypocritical if he said "don't lynch alvinz95" but voted for you with that same reasoning, or even in that same post. Skillit has not said that he would not vote for you, he has only asked you a question.

I agree that what Skillit has asked alvinz95 should be answered.

Post 23

: Alvinz brings up his 4 really strange reasons for his case on StrangerCoug again, and says that the case on him is comprised of two things:
What is my case?

1. random stage
2. asking for a lynch
Seriously can someone list the reasons for my case?

Which is wrong.

[Rage]

Oops, the last one should read:

Post 23

: Alvinz brings up his 4 really strange reasons for his case on StrangerCoug again, and says that the case on him is comprised of two things:

What is my case?

1. random stage
2. asking for a lynch
Seriously can someone list the reasons for my case?

Which is wrong.

[Rage]

Interesting. This is all old though. Why not bash on my tunnel vision? This is all before my claim then my bad attitude-ness. What I find very scummy of you, is that you aren't at all using any information from "Rage 1.0" rather saying you are someone else, which leads me to wonder if you are scum. You seem to be pretending to be townie (or being scum) very hard.

Anyway, I'm not replying cause I don't care if I die.

1. I thought I made it clear that I wasn't finished.
2. I'm not the Rage you know from the start of the game. I'm Rage that replaced into the game after the previous Rage died. Please pay attention to the game, at least until you're lynched.
3. Aren't you pretending to be townie? Are we all pretending to be townies?
4. If you aren't willing to defend yourself, you can eat this:

Vote: Alvinz

I'm not sure if I should continue the PBPA anymore, since the whole reason I wanted to make one was for a response from alvinz, but since I'm not getting that...

[Rage]

I'm not protown, but I'm town. I've essentially given up, and my only task is to annoy the town to death by presenting a great case, then say "TOLD YA SO!" at the end, when we lose. (at this rate we're getting nowhere with Goatrevolts new cases pulling attention away from Forbiddenlight, and the distracting Rage) So SC, I did not bother to read wall of text, and skipped that, and its not a crime to saying why he didn't attack my tunnel vision. I'm oblivious cause I'm a neutral.

LOL

There. I'm not responding to you, smart ass.

[Rage]

I now expect Goatrevolt to magically say the BaB wagon is wack and vote me. Expected scum play. See? I know your plans. Forbiddanlight is now pretty clear she's scum. I'm a bit more fuzzy on Goat, until FL dies. Well it seems I'm the expected lynch. Just remember what I said, and hopefully you'll apply it.

Bull shit. Firstly, both Alvinz and Forbiddanlight are giving Goatrevolt unnecessary wiggle room, although Alvinz started it. Wait for his response, don't try to guess what he's going to do.

The only way you could foretell that is if you somehow had a conversation outside of the game thread with him. And that's scummy, because both of you claim vanilla.

Secondly, Alvinz has left no option for town-Goatrevolt to do. If he says "No, I'm not going to do what Alvinz said" then Alvinz can simply reply "You're only NOT doing that because I said you would!" and if he does it, then Alvinz has set his tunnel-vision up by saying "Expected scum play".

Obvious crap logic, right there.

[Rage]

Actually I am helping the town. I'm giving them what I know, but they aren't using it. Pity.

You're avoiding questions, a step down from dismissing them, and you're stubborn.

Either way, and either alignment, you're a huge distraction. Who also just seemed to get lucky enough to be kept alive Day 1.

[Rage]

I'm leaning towards a Forbiddanlight lynch, too, but what happens when/if Alvinz isn't night-killed? We risk someone else dying, because either he's scum and doesn't kill himself, or scum chooses to kill off someone else to put pressure on him tomorrow. Therefore, I don't think the Town should put their trust in an unconfirmed vigilante, let alone a mafia, because so far there have been no night-kills, so the possibility of said mafia is looking a little 'out there' to me. There are also so many things that could go wrong with a vigilante claiming, at this point or tomorrow.

@Everyone, I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying think about it first and then make the decision about who you want to lynch.

Once more, I'd like to add that alvinz still has not responded to what has been asked of him, but we're so used to this by now I don't think anyone really cares, do they? I mean, I'd appreciate his response, but I'm expecting it to be too half-assed to get anything new out of.

[Rage]

Rage what is your question?

I'd prefer if you responded to my incomplete PBPA of you, just to make sure everything is written correctly, but I was referring to StrangerCoug's unanswered question in my last post.

[Rage]

Oh yes, I almost forgot. Jshark didn't post a whole lot and sometimes it felt like coasting when he did post. Rage2 should be looked at closer, IMO.

I think I'm a little more active than my predecessor, but that shouldn't stop anyone from being suspicious of me. I'd just like a little more reason than "Someone who flaked out of the game's replacement needs to be looked at because he didn't post much".. with 'flake' meaning something less harsh than what it sounds like.

Oh and I prefer Rage 2.0 (just kidding, it really doesn't matter)

[Rage]

Unvote: Alvinz
Vote: Forbiddanlight

I'm much more suspicious of Alvinz, but a Forbiddanlight lynch gives more information than the so-called "unhelpful townie" lynch. Although, I want Alvinz to tell me if everything is quoted correctly so far, so I can continue it for tomorrow.

[Rage]

Thousands upon thousands of Oops emoticons = Bad modding!

... just kidding

@Goatrevolt, I don't understand what exactly makes you certain that Sthra8 is scum. Leaving yourself open to suspect everyone else is both a scum and town tactic, because if you are scum, you can buss (bus?) your partner without drawing attention, and as town you have to be suspicious of everyone.

Also, Megatheory was someone that I didn't really touch on yesterday, so I'm disappointed I couldn't today, but perhaps that's a good thing, eh?

Moving on to today, however, I'd like to say that I have never been in a game that's LyLo. So, I say that the logical thing to do is to wait for everyone to check in, maybe state something from yesterday that they feel they want to bring up again, and then we start discussion and get opinions. That way, there's less of a chance that any players start to drop out of the discussion and the town can come to a consensus faster than what we did yesterday, which was draw out the day.

I'm going to read Megatheory's posts in isolation (and of course look to the game thread when necessary) and see if I can spot any hints or irregularities he may have hinted at that would be crucial to know, while everyone checks in.

@Goatrevolt, it's LyLo and the first thing you do is vote for someone? Come on, don't develop alvinz's tunnel-vision.
@Everyone, is there anything game-related that you want my opinion on? I think it's probable that nobody really has a read on me, since the players I replaced were not the most active members of this game, so I'd suggest making up your minds about me now before we get too involved in other discussion, and get things cleared up.

--
That ended up being a lot of things I wanted to say, so I apologize about any grammatical errors. Just hit me up a question if there's anything off-putting or I made a false interpretation somewhere.

[Rage]

Oops, I'm here!

I don't think a mass-claim will help us right now. But I don't think it will hurt.
So, I'm willing to claim also.

Then do so.

Hold on, do you want everyone to claim or just BaB? And, why?

I don't recall ever living to LYLO before, so I wouldn't know. The mod said he didn't want to reveal any more info, so I'm going to stop asking him, but he used an example (3 town and 3 scum) that doesn't apply at all right now.

Why exactly doesn't that apply? Could there be a Cult or Mafia that doesn't kill, and another anti-town faction?

I really think there is a Cult, because it would make so much sense to have in a fake political game, and because I don't know much about any power roles, so I can't really speculate much more than this.

Finally, I think what the Town needs, in the interest of discussion, is for our top three suspects to claim. Therefore, I suggest everyone post, along with whatever else they haven't said already, who they want to role-claim and why.

I want Goatrevolt, Sthra8 and BridgesandBaloons, in that order, to role-claim because they have shown that they can put up cases against others, no matter how strong/weak, and I want to see if their role-claim could relate to anything a scum would say, in relation to their suspicions, or a townie living on the edge.

[Rage]

Real quick: I'm willing to willing to claim anytime. But everyone else hasn't agreed to a massclaim yet. So it's anti-town for anyone to just start blurting out their role COUGH SC COUGH!

Hey, I'm not the one that objects to massclaiming. This needs to happen if we want to win.

Well, there

are

mixed feelings about doing an actual mass-claim. Why do you think it's necessary?

[Rage]

I would suggest popcorn starting from SC, who already claimed.

What is popcorn? If I had to take a guess.. players claim in a random, or near random, order?

[Rage]

Just pointing out that scum has a tendency to respond to questions about the gameplay because it's not related to scumhunting and therefore is active but not incriminating.

You're implying Sthra8 is scum for replying to my question, aintcha? Um, he posted the word "popcorn" first, though, so I don't think this makes sense.

You wouldn't happen to be trying to be nitpicking at Sthra8 because he called your suspicions pretty much baseless, would you?

[Rage]

then it seems to me that we dont do any popcorn or anything, just cut to the chase and say if you have a role to claim, claim first. if you claim late, you are more likely scum. right?

First, are you assuming all scum claims vanilla?

Second, I don't like your idea. You want all the power roles to claim first, and to a larger extent eliminating them from being scum? There is not more of a chance for people who claim to have less of a power to be scum. In fact, I think it's quite the opposite, because the more power someone claims with, the more responsibility they claim to have in a game and the more of a target they appear to the scum. If they don't die, so many things go wrong. For example, scum forces the player's mislynch and gets away with a nightkill, because the player with power "didn't die during the night".

You know, I can't help but remember when BridgesAndBaloons said:

And why wasn't Goat NKed?

Tons of possibilities to explain this.

How.. interesting.

the first to claim would either be a ballsy scum, or the actual role. if we said, ok if you have a role then claim by time x - the closer we got to x the more likely the claim would be untrue. granted tht a claim right before x wouldnt 100% be fake, but it would be more likely to be so

See, since you are proposing this, scum knows to claim first, and if we actually go through with it scum will most likely claim first and get away with fakeclaiming, wheras the townies, or even scum that has a good fakeclaim, who get on later than everyone else are liable for pressure. Useless pressure, too, because townies are just as likely to do it as scum are, and their targets would most likely be the ones who claim late.

In short, not a good idea.

I think popcorning is our best option.

[Rage]

@Electra, I was stating that I find BridgesAndBaloons scummy for asking why Goatrevolt wasn't nightkilled.

It's in relation to the example I gave for Skillit's idea, the last line of the first big paragraph after the quote in that post. One thing led to another and I couldn't help but think of that, so I posted it too.

[Rage]

So, to get this straight, your reason for saying that is because you thought he was the logical night-kill?

[Rage]

I have yet to claim.

[Rage]

Same role as before, didn't even get a new message.

[Rage]

Electra, go to it!

[Rage]

I'm hesitant to believe Sthar8's claim simply because it almost seems like he's claiming like a Cop who looks after himself above the Town, but so far all I've got is mere speculation. It just seems a little convenient for him to claim Cop with an investigation on Goatrevolt (the good reason for the investigation aside) and claim to have been role-blocked N1, when Veerus has claimed to have been role-blocked too. Speculating further, if Sthar8 proved not to be a Cop, I'd suspect him of being the aforementioned "roleblocker". But who knows, I may be completely backwards about this and Veerus is faking his claim, because he claimed to have protected a dead townie but was roleblocked.

Let's just say I believe Sthar8 more than I don't, but there's room for improvement. Same with Veerus.

@Sthar8, To clarify, did you investigate Goatrevolt because of the quarrel you two had yesterday or because you thought he was more likely to be scum than anyone else? If the former, I might be on to something, but if the latter, could you explain why?

[Rage]

I don't have a good reason to doubt the claims right now, but given two people claim to have been roleblocked, I'm pretty sure they're either both town or both scum.

I think there is a good chance that one may be lying, but I only have enough information to speculate, so I can't base my suspicion on anything. Considering the lack of kill on night 1, I'm more willing to clear veerus than Sthra8, but my no means am I turning a blind eye to either. Neither have solid, undeniable role-claims and thus there is a chance one or both of them is scum.

My top three would go BridgesandBaloons, Electra, and then Sthra8, but nothing to guarantee a vote. That's just out of the people who appear to be contributing to discussion today, so I don't have enough to call out Skillit or StrangerCoug. Nevertheless, my eye sees all.

[Rage]

Your list is flawed. You aren't up there. This is how I see it:

There are three scum, and they are 3 of the following

4

5:

BridgesAndBaloons(GhostWriter)
Electra(cerebus3)
StrangerCoug
Skillit
Rage

You are far from confirmed. In fact, everyone is far from confirmed.

Regarding the power-role claims, the only way that I can think of them being a step closer to confirmed are, well, tomorrow. There's no need to make this sacrifice right now, but if Veerus is telling the truth, then we will probably lose him, and if he isn't, then we might lose Sthra8.

Skillit seems to be purposely misunderstanding me.
I said exactly "I agree with SC being scum."
I didn't say I agree with the whole thing, or even that I thought electra was town.
I simply said I think SC is scum. How on earth did that statement confuse you?

Problem is, you left so much room for interpretation that, of course, you have to expect someone is going to read it wrong. That's just the way words are. Do you see Skillit intentionally reading your posts wrong?

[Rage]

Argh, I meant for the list to read:

Veerus
sthar8(Styro/Gimbo)(Gojira)
Goatrevolt
BridgesAndBaloons (GhostWriter)
Electra(cerebus3)
StrangerCoug
Skillit
Rage

[/quote]

[Rage]

Also, Rage, by claiming we (sthar and I) have effectively waived our ability to be the powerrole unless we lynch the mafia RB today. While BAB is most scummy, I do not think he's the mafia RB due to his predecessor's lack of activity in D1. This highly speculative and unfounded theory would be my biggest reason to try and get lucky by lynching the RB instead of what looks like a sure-scum on BAB.

Oh, I get it. To make sure there is a Roleblocker, we have to lynch it today, otherwise we lose both of our powerroles. That is, if either of you are truly what you say you are. As you can tell, I'm still not one-hundred percent sure either of you are what you say, but I'm not willing to put my vote on either of you. It doesn't seem like a good idea during LYLO to help lynch a claimed powerrole, now does it?

But what I don't get is how you can say you will advocate a BAB lynch even though you think he isn't the RB, but also say that if we don't hit the Roleblocker we lose? I see nothing wrong with thinking the latter, but saying you'll lynch scum but want to lynch scum roleblocker is a little conflicting. Could you clear your position on this up, please?

[Rage]

If this line of thinking is correct and BAB is indeed scum, he's almost definitely not the scum-RB.

Or he's using a gambit as a scum to take suspicion off. I'm comfortable with a BAB lynch at this point.

Regarding StrangerCoug, though, why does it seem like his posts today revolve around defending himself and pushing it back at who he's defending from? Ie. His defense against BAB is that his vote was without justification (this part I agree with, no vote should be made in LYLO without justification) and that BAB hasn't been answering SC's questions. But he hasn't really commented on the claimed power-roles, and in the time where they were first revealed he speculated mafia roles of "Goon/Goon/Roleblocker" (post #1154) after Sthra8 claimed (post #1153).

Simply put, they're short posts containing not much more than an offensive defense against BAB. Thus, I'd support either a BAB or SC lynch.

[Rage]

Ugh, sorry, but I'll be out for most of the day tomorrow.. so don't expect much of a post, if any, from me.

[Rage]

All righty! Activity should be back to "normal" now, so if there's anything anyone wants me to address, let them speak now!

[Rage]

Do you mean how active I think everyone is? If so, I don't think I'm the best person to answer that.

[Rage]

Weird... I thought I just posted but my post is not here.

Anyway, I'm here, but nothing has really happened, and I'm already voting. I'm even more confident that BaB/StrangerCoug are Mafia considering how slowly we're moving (or not moving) to a lynch.

Uh, firstly, just because you've voted doesn't mean you don't have to talk anymore. Secondly, how does activity guarantee that BaB/StrangerCoug are scum? Isn't there the possibility that the people who are less active are waiting to pounce on a mislynch?

Methinks you're bussing your partners by setting yourself up for either a BaB or StrangerCoug lynch.

[Rage]

Veerus, you haven't mentioned me at all. Do you have any suspicions of me?

[Rage]

Electra, that would be a good observation except for the fact that it takes 5 votes to lynch and StrangerCoug has 2. Also, if he's obviously scum, why haven't you voted for him?

Anyways, I think a StrangerCoug lynch by the deadline

would

be safer than any one of the other vanilla claims. Looking back at his posts from the previous days, he has only really pushed townie lynches, like Veerus pointed out. Also, when Rage v. 1.0 was still alive on early Day 1, StrangerCoug was put under a lot of pressure and many players, including myself (eh.. I mean, Rage 2.0!), found him unnecessarily panicky. Also, I can't help but compare to his performance now to his posts on previous days. Now he's making short posts, commenting on the fairly recent stuff, whereas in the previous days it seems like he was more committed to his suspicions. So, I can't help but think that he just wanted townies to die.

[Rage]

Electra, do you remember how it takes two town votes on a townie to make a lynch? And, where do you see any of my reluctance to vote? In fact, I haven't mentioned my vote at all because 1) I can't believe a word anyone says and 2) My vote is much more important that those of our claimed power roles. Why? Because they are, and I hate to admit it, more "confirmed" than I am. But, alas, I've already explained what I think of veerus and Sthra8.

You know when I said "how can you be so sure scum isn't already on the wagon"? Yeah, you've managed to avoid that and instead put pressure on me. Super!

At any rate, at least to me, Coug's scumminess has been 100% confirmed, and so there's no reason for me to pursue other avenues today.

The only way I can think of a "vanilla townie" could know 100% that someone is scum if they were faking their claim. Why do you think he's 100% confirmed scum?

One more thing, you should always be open to pursuing other avenues if you're a vanilla townie. See what happened to alvinz?

Electra, you are ignoring the case on BridgesAndBaloons. To me, that pretty much makes you his scumbuddy. Not 100% as you claim is on me (and I can tell you you're 100% wrong), but I'm about 85% sure you're scum with him.

But she just called him town in her latest post? Wha?!

[Rage]

I know that I'm not mafia.

I know that I'm not mafia, too. I'm glad we could clear that up!

Goatrevolt has been confirmed by the cop.

BaB I don't know about, but even if he's scum, there's already two townies on the Coug wagon. Therefore, to me, I can see that Coug is scum.

How can you be so sure that Goatrevolt was

confirmed

? Either Sthra8 or Goatrevolt could easily be this "roleblocker" and using a fakeclaim to cover each others' tracks up. So as a regular townie,I don't see how you could believe that a cop exists, nor take the word of someone who claims to be one to heart. And if you are indeed scum, I see you most likely being the roleblocker because of that comment (underlined).

It's frustrating to me that no one else has my perspective because it's very clear to me. =\

Sorry, but scum is just as likely to say this as town.

@Electra, I want to know why you FoSed me based on whether I was voting or not. You say that we are close to a deadline, and although that is true I do not think votes should be made hastily in order to achieve a lynch. You also say that you are 100% certain StrangerCoug is scum and aren't open to other venues.. which is stupid in LyLo. I'd be content with your lynch.

However, I agree that a No Lynch is something we definitely do not want. Speaking of which:

On the other hand though.. a no lynch here means that we're still in LYLO but with one less vote and one less target. I suppose it's not the end of the world but it's not all that great either..

A no lynch, if both of you are telling the truth, means either you or Sthra8 is roleblocker, and the other is killed. I find it peculiar how you fail to mention that..

Vote: Electra even though I'm apparently the only one who finds her suspicious.

Well, she's certainly seeming increasingly scummy with her most recent comments. I definitely find her suspicious.

I'm making short, non-committal posts because the wrong move will cost us the game. I'm trying to be cautious here.

You're at 3 votes out of 5 (thanks for the correction, Electra) in LyLo, and you're worried about making the wrong move? This sounds like bogus, and really bad reasoning.

My list for 'most likely to be scum' now goes (most to least):
Electra, BridgesAndBaloons, Skillit, Sthra8, Goatrevolt, StrangerCoug, Veerus

But, I still think a StrangerCoug lynch would be safer than anyone else.

[Rage]

Woah, woah. I messed up big time! I copied and pasted the list from the first page and flipped them around a bit, but obviously I didn't get to StrangerCoug.

Revised:

Electra, StrangerCoug, BridgesAndBaloons, Skillit, Sthra8, Goatrevolt, Veerus

So, even though I think Electra is scummier, I just haven't seen enough evidence for her to be scum. It's only her recent plays (and she's only been in the game recently) that make me suspicious of her, whereas for all of the game StrangerCoug has been making scummy plays. That's why I feel it's safer with his lynch.

Sorry for the confusion!

[Rage]

Yes, I'm planning to vote SC, but I'm not going to do it now because there is still active discussion between StrangerCoug, BridgesAndBallons and Skillit, and I'd hate to interrupt that.

*cough* forbiddanlight's hammer */cough*

Just kidding.

[Rage]

Eh, what's this?

Rage is the one who has struck me as the least caring about the town winning, based on the tone/nature of his posts today.

Seriously? How can you read tone online, and could you explain how the nature of my posts makes you think I don't care about town winning?

[Rage]

Vote: StrangerCoug

[Rage]

OMG! Why, why, why was I the only one not 100% believing our power roles?

Meh.. guess I didn't shout loud enough until that bullet cracked my skull, but by then it was already over.

[Rage]

Oh and, sorry, but this is freaking hilarious:

We discussed killing SC to screw with alvinz, but we decided that alvinz focused on town was more helpful than unpredictable alvinz.