Silent Star 1: Lunacy

[Nahdia]

knew this was coming. i'll tell you the exact same thing i told you in BOTC: they're completely different games. in botc, the setup allowed me to enter with a specific plan and there were mechanics i could base all my reads on. in this game, that doesn't exist. you can't expect the same level of engagement when it's literally just a matter of scumhunting versus explaining/extrapolating from heavy mechanics. im a mechanically oriented player.

Tbh this is a large basis for the scumread, and i couldnt really bring this up until now

I think that you're lacking the interest/drive/wim/charisma that you had in your towngame, in a way similar to how you lacked it in your scumgame

And i can cite the mbos game too now. You just have more 'weight' as town, and you're more involved. As scum you just feel ... shallow. Like you're around but not motivated to hunt. And i think that's what you're doing here, and i think it's scummy.

I dont think the lack of mechanics is an adequate explanation really. You still scumhunted in botc

you're comparing >24 window of time in which i was in a 9 person game to a 13 person game. like, i do get your read. i think the meta is a valid push. but all i can say is it's wrong in this case. in mbos i was immediately engaged and wagoned and like i said, that makes it a lot easier to read people. there were also fewer slots to keep track of. and i have scumhunted here.

skitter, when you say "raven likes being defended by [nahdia]," is that implying that raven is the S in the SvT? How can nahdia be WKing raven then?

no, nahdia would be the s in that scenario

.... so why is raven liking being defended towny? skitter do you usually try to read for partners on d1?

overindexing on finding partners early is scum mindset imo. sure, some town can do it. but for scum, having partners and considering how you're distancing/associating with them is at the forefront. this is actually what got me caught in the large normal you're referring to!

and considering you admit to not individually reading raven despite all this content based around her, and that the way you're pivoting from SvS to TvS is nonsensical, it's a huge red flag.

gonna go back and reread/case bc i was townleaning earlier but the last time you were pushing me for whacky reasons and i softed up on you, you ended up being scum!

VOTE: skitter30

[Nahdia]

perhaps in my reread i may lay down some BRACKETS as well. my reads are actually p good in mbos!

[skitter30]

you're comparing >24 window of time in which i was in a 9 person game to a 13 person game. like, i do get your read. i think the meta is a valid push. but all i can say is it's wrong in this case. in mbos i was immediately engaged and wagoned and like i said, that makes it a lot easier to read people. there were also fewer slots to keep track of. and i have scumhunted here.

idk what the first sentence means
and like ... from my pov you're not really showing me why i'm wrong other than ... telling me that i'm wrong
like i don't see town!you here much at all
and i kinda immediately engaged and voted (and tried to wagon) you here, so i'm not sure what the difference is

[skitter30]

.... so why is raven liking being defended towny? skitter do you usually try to read for partners on d1?

overindexing on finding partners early is scum mindset imo. sure, some town can do it. but for scum, having partners and considering how you're distancing/associating with them is at the forefront. this is actually what got me caught in the large normal you're referring to!

and considering you admit to not individually reading raven despite all this content based around her, and that the way you're pivoting from SvS to TvS is nonsensical, it's a huge red flag.

gonna go back and reread/case bc i was townleaning earlier but the last time you were pushing me for whacky reasons and i softed up on you, you ended up being scum!

a) i didn't say that i thought raven was townie, don't put words in my mouth. i said that you guys look like svt, which is not at all the same thing
b) i try not to look for partners day1 but i sometimes end up doing that to my dismay ...
c) i'm kinda baffled that i'm getting this much pushback on the you/raven thing, which makes me think i'm on to something ...
d) i think that you're scum. more than that, i am very confident that you're scum. i think that there's something very wacky in how you're engaging with raven, and it makes me think there's at least one scum in the pair. the more i thought about it, i settled on tvs over svs, and i'm not sure why it's a nonsensical read or a red flag
e) and yes, i'd love to hear more about why i'm pushing you for whacky reasons, and why you think i'm scum here.

[Nahdia]

i was only in mbos for... 22 hours? idk im not going back to look. i remember it being less than 24 hours. i think my carrot is pointing the wrong way!
and yes that's the problem with meta. there is no way for me to tell you that you're wrong other than tell you that you're wrong. i can point out the differences in the scenarios but if you don't agree with them well, you'll just have to update your meta for next game!

the different is in that game, the wagon was like, immediate, and had lots of people on it, and ended with a lynch in under a day. none of that has happened this game.

.... so why is raven liking being defended towny? skitter do you usually try to read for partners on d1?

overindexing on finding partners early is scum mindset imo. sure, some town can do it. but for scum, having partners and considering how you're distancing/associating with them is at the forefront. this is actually what got me caught in the large normal you're referring to!

and considering you admit to not individually reading raven despite all this content based around her, and that the way you're pivoting from SvS to TvS is nonsensical, it's a huge red flag.

gonna go back and reread/case bc i was townleaning earlier but the last time you were pushing me for whacky reasons and i softed up on you, you ended up being scum!

a) i didn't say that i thought raven was townie, don't put words in my mouth. i said that you guys look like svt, which is not at all the same thing
b) i try not to look for partners day1 but i sometimes end up doing that to my dismay ...
c) i'm kinda baffled that i'm getting this much pushback on the you/raven thing, which makes me think i'm on to something ...
d) i think that you're scum. more than that, i am very confident that you're scum. i think that there's something very wacky in how you're engaging with raven, and it makes me think there's at least one scum in the pair. the more i thought about it, i settled on tvs over svs, and i'm not sure why it's a nonsensical read or a red flag
e) and yes, i'd love to hear more about why i'm pushing you for whacky reasons, and why you think i'm scum here.

a) ??? paraphrase is "i thought it was svs but raven liked being defended so maybe it's tvs". im not sure how else to interpret that.

the basic premise is this: i think that your mind instantly went to "partners" rather than white-knighting when you admit to not even having an independent read on raven is SUPER telling of your mindset. that's a major logical leap.

[skitter30]

i was only in mbos for... 22 hours? idk im not going back to look. i remember it being less than 24 hours. i think my carrot is pointing the wrong way!
and yes that's the problem with meta. there is no way for me to tell you that you're wrong other than tell you that you're wrong. i can point out the differences in the scenarios but if you don't agree with them well, you'll just have to update your meta for next game!

mbos was more of a side bit, i'm really focusing more on botc, and specifically more on the past couple of days and how you were proactive in trying ot move the game along and how you reacted when auro tried to scumread you

a) ??? paraphrase is "i thought it was svs but raven liked being defended so maybe it's tvs". im not sure how else to interpret that.

i'm saying that i think the dynamic between the two of you has at least one scum. if there's *only* one scum, raven's the townie. that doesn't mean i'm townreading her on her own play (i.e. i don't inherently think she's townie), but rather that the circumstances around her slot might mean she's townie,to clarify

the basic premise is this: i think that your mind instantly went to "partners" rather than white-knighting when you admit to not even having an independent read on raven is SUPER telling of your mindset. that's a major logical leap.

i mean the associative started with her refusing to make a read on you. at that point i should have read that as you wk'ing her because ... you hadn't even mentioned her at that point iirc

later on you started defending her, and on balance it's starting to look to me like you took advantage of lilith lumping you together to defend her and yourself by proxy. but that's not how it started and telling me that i should have recognized you wk'ing her at that point is silly

[midwaybear]

UNVOTE: Dunnstral as you wish
I agree with raven that her and nahdia could both be town. Just because someone defends another person doesn't mean they are both scum together.

[midwaybear]

What I don’t understand is why MWB so strongly tr him for that?

I don't townread him for that; it's more like not really thinking that was scummy. I townread him for trying to sort people and scumhunt. I honestly don't think the PoE post comes from scum either.

[Raven Branwen]

Spoiler:

.... so why is raven liking being defended towny? skitter do you usually try to read for partners on d1?

overindexing on finding partners early is scum mindset imo. sure, some town can do it. but for scum, having partners and considering how you're distancing/associating with them is at the forefront. this is actually what got me caught in the large normal you're referring to!

and considering you admit to not individually reading raven despite all this content based around her, and that the way you're pivoting from SvS to TvS is nonsensical, it's a huge red flag.

gonna go back and reread/case bc i was townleaning earlier but the last time you were pushing me for whacky reasons and i softed up on you, you ended up being scum!

a) i didn't say that i thought raven was townie, don't put words in my mouth. i said that you guys look like svt, which is not at all the same thing
b) i try not to look for partners day1 but i sometimes end up doing that to my dismay ...
c) i'm kinda baffled that i'm getting this much pushback on the you/raven thing, which makes me think i'm on to something ...
d) i think that you're scum. more than that, i am very confident that you're scum. i think that there's something very wacky in how you're engaging with raven, and it makes me think there's at least one scum in the pair. the more i thought about it, i settled on tvs over svs, and i'm not sure why it's a nonsensical read or a red flag
e) and yes, i'd love to hear more about why i'm pushing you for whacky reasons, and why you think i'm scum here.

i was only in mbos for... 22 hours? idk im not going back to look. i remember it being less than 24 hours. i think my carrot is pointing the wrong way!
and yes that's the problem with meta. there is no way for me to tell you that you're wrong other than tell you that you're wrong. i can point out the differences in the scenarios but if you don't agree with them well, you'll just have to update your meta for next game!

the different is in that game, the wagon was like, immediate, and had lots of people on it, and ended with a lynch in under a day. none of that has happened this game.

.... so why is raven liking being defended towny? skitter do you usually try to read for partners on d1?

overindexing on finding partners early is scum mindset imo. sure, some town can do it. but for scum, having partners and considering how you're distancing/associating with them is at the forefront. this is actually what got me caught in the large normal you're referring to!

and considering you admit to not individually reading raven despite all this content based around her, and that the way you're pivoting from SvS to TvS is nonsensical, it's a huge red flag.

gonna go back and reread/case bc i was townleaning earlier but the last time you were pushing me for whacky reasons and i softed up on you, you ended up being scum!

a) i didn't say that i thought raven was townie, don't put words in my mouth. i said that you guys look like svt, which is not at all the same thing
b) i try not to look for partners day1 but i sometimes end up doing that to my dismay ...
c) i'm kinda baffled that i'm getting this much pushback on the you/raven thing, which makes me think i'm on to something ...
d) i think that you're scum. more than that, i am very confident that you're scum. i think that there's something very wacky in how you're engaging with raven, and it makes me think there's at least one scum in the pair. the more i thought about it, i settled on tvs over svs, and i'm not sure why it's a nonsensical read or a red flag
e) and yes, i'd love to hear more about why i'm pushing you for whacky reasons, and why you think i'm scum here.

a) ??? paraphrase is "i thought it was svs but raven liked being defended so maybe it's tvs". im not sure how else to interpret that.

the basic premise is this: i think that your mind instantly went to "partners" rather than white-knighting when you admit to not even having an independent read on raven is SUPER telling of your mindset. that's a major logical leap.

@Skitter, you’re getting “pushback”, because you are so tunnelled on Nahdia, you are ignoring any signs that point against your read on her. 754 doesn’t sound like a scum reaction to being pushed. I don’t understand how you’re not seeing that.

I’m starting to think you’re confibiasing on her slot. Nahdia’s town, get off of your ridiculous tunnel.

[Raven Branwen]

What I don’t understand is why MWB so strongly tr him for that?

I don't townread him for that; it's more like not really thinking that was scummy. I townread him for trying to sort people and scumhunt. I honestly don't think the PoE post comes from scum either.

Scum historically focuses on LHF because they’re the easiest to mislynch. Sure, it can also come from town but less so. Ngl, if Star hadn’t have replaced in, my vote would still be 100% on votato. I’m not revoting her rn because so far I like what I’ve seen from her and when a slot gets replaced, you need to take into account your read on both players. I particularly like her calling her predecessor’s read on Clover, “lame”. I will need to see a lot more from her before I have a confident read on that slot but so far I like what I’ve seen from her.

[Clover Ebi]

i changed my mind on midway, i think i'm gut-townreading them

From what post(s)?

Bleh, I don't like this post. It seemed you were building up to a scum read on me in your catch up. Where did it go? Was it just because in your catch you saw that people weren't pushing me anymore?
VOTE: Lilith

i rather dislike this progression too

You don't think their progression on me is weird? They apparently mind-meld with Beeboy over me, which implies they scum read me, but no vote or comment on those town reading me or even on Beeboy's updated view of me. Instead, I just vanish from their posts.

This feels a bit nitpicky to me. I don’t know, it’s just to me I don’t expect people to be robots and do everything by the book right away like this and I think this is kinda obvious though? Plus if you look at Lilith it didn’t seem like she was gonna vote you from the impression I got.

630 and the posting before by Raven posts her in my townreads. I think regardless of her stances the progression is obvious and it ties together her posting and makes a bit more sense on why she’s trying to sort slots like Nahdia over the larger content posters.

How do people feel about 638 by Kanna? Do you think scum her goes after Skitter of all people? It's making me scratch my head on how to read it.

[Clover Ebi]

Also hi Starbuck!

[Raven Branwen]

Spoiler:

Can you explain what you think I should have done instead when I didn't have enough information to feel like I could scumread you?

You gave about the answer I expected. I understand wanting to pressure people that are present in the thread. Though I do still find it weird you didn't acknowledge my posts after my push on Beeboy, or how others responded to those posts. Like you were apparently mindmelding on Beeboy, so did that mindmeld break when they gave reasons for unvoting me, or did you agree? Also, you say now you can continue pursuing it now that you know my view of Dunn, is this it? I kind of thought there would be more for the follow up.

What posts do you want me to acknowledge? I was catching up on like 300 posts, I only commented on the stuff I thought was important.

My reads have diverged from beeboy's but that doesn't mean my original reasons for townreading him aren't still valid. As I said, the fact that he was having thoughts so similar to mine is a good sign his thought processes are town thought processes, and I think beeboy really got engaged with the conversations that were happening and wasn't afraid to give his opinions on the wagon that was happening at the time. iirc you disagreed with my description of what happened, but I don't really feel like it's worth arguing with that because you basically seem to have locked in your idea of what happened and I don't wanna put in the effort to argue if I don't think the argument will be successful (ie by changing your mind).

Your continual lack of read on Dunn is problematic, for much the same reasons I was scumreading nahdia. Dunn's wagon was the first big event in this game and instead of giving your opinion on Dunn, you latched onto beeboy instead. That reads as if you are uncomfortable with interacting with the main wagon. The "read" you gave me in response was basically a non-read, so it feels like you went straight for beeboy without thinking about what beeboy's motiviations would have been in defending the dunn wagon there and what that would indicate about dunn's alignment. That's a missing link that I often can't replicate when I'm scum.

I mean if you're talking about Beeboy V. Me I would have expected you to comment on how it concluded. It seems like an odd omission from your catch up.

I don't think breaking a mind-meld with someone implies you don't read them as town. However, since you were hopping on a bunch of Beeboy's posts to comment that you agree and it was the conclusion of Beeboy V. Me I did expect something like "what are you guys doing he doesn't have a Dunn read?" or "I wouldn't unvote here." You know what I'm saying, it feels like a missing link.

Okay now you’re literally using the words I used about you

I talked to beeboy already about that, and at the time you had yet to respond to me about whether you had a read on dunn so that wasn’t something I felt I could bring up as an argument because I didn’t know whether you had a read on dunn when I asked beeboy about you.

I already said that I only commented on things I thought were important. During my catch-up I was more focused on how other people were responding to your interactions with beeboy, as well as the lack of Dunn read from you that persisted, so I guess I didn’t think the ending if the interaction itself was notable.

You really seem to want to 1v1 me here, and like.. your reaction to my one question to you was way overblown. Why are you coming after me so hard? Is it because you saw that dunnstral was called town for pushing me and you want the townpoints too? Sorry, no townpoints for you.

In post 488, lilith2013 wrote:
Idk if it’s really as easy as raven/nahdia but that’s kind of where I’m at

Can you elaborate on this? Something about it feels very off.

You didn't address this. What did you mean here?

both in my poe -> both had posts that pinged me -> I think both might be scum. What's "off" about this progression?

Why is like 80% of your content in the last several days focused on me?

This is what interests me at the moment.

I didn't complain about the progression. You asked if it was really so easy as Raven/Nahida, and then said that's where you
are at. That implies you view them as the scum team. Now this pinged me because its a closed set up, and this comes off like a scum slip. Because you seem to think we're looking for two scum. Why?

.........

I’m used to playing in micros. For whatever reason, I always initially think it’s two scum. I realized after I made that post that it likely was a three-man scumteam, but I still stand behind that post. Even if they’re not

the

scumteam, I’m still POEd down to them somewhat.

Why do you think it’s likely to be a “three-man scumteam” and if your initial belief was that it was two, then how are you seeing Tux as thinking this as a scumslip?

[Clover Ebi]

Now that I'm speaking outloud I just wanna kinda move my vote to here VOTE: midway So his meta is he's scummy as town but...scummy as scum? That could be a really easily used defense and I just kinda want to put some pressure here see where it leads.
pedit: Yeah just give me a sec. Headache coming in again

I've only seen him through the lens of being scum - he tends to get pushed as a mislynch option by town throughout the game

Do you think this should play a factor in other games? I’m inclined to say no myself.

i feel like you're trying to tie yourself to raven almost ...

also here, you said it's like nahdia is trying to tie herself to raven - why would scum *try* and tie themselves to their partner?

Normally when you tie yourself to someone it’s to take them down with you on a flip. Although I don’t get how this is a major point in skitters post.

it feels like scum is trying to see what wagon will stick. votato was giving momentum to any upcoming wagon but it felt similar to his play in mantis leadership:

viewtopic.php?p=11893795&user_select%5B%5D=34221#p11893795

beeboy and kanna felt like they were feeling out support for pressuring me, whereas lilith felt like she was sorting me.

I can’t recall Kanna’s push on you but beeboy seems pretty adamant in his pressure on you. I don’t know how I feel about Votato and meta being the main reason for a defense. I know he’s subbed out but was that your only feelings on his slot? I do like the rest of your post on Kanna and would def want to explore that with you more

[Clover Ebi]

I feel like I missed all the good parts while I was away!

[Clover Ebi]

The more midway just throws shade around instead of doing much solving in his posts the more I feel comfortable with my vote on him.

[Raven Branwen]

Spoiler:

i changed my mind on midway, i think i'm gut-townreading them

From what post(s)?

Bleh, I don't like this post. It seemed you were building up to a scum read on me in your catch up. Where did it go? Was it just because in your catch you saw that people weren't pushing me anymore?
VOTE: Lilith

i rather dislike this progression too

You don't think their progression on me is weird? They apparently mind-meld with Beeboy over me, which implies they scum read me, but no vote or comment on those town reading me or even on Beeboy's updated view of me. Instead, I just vanish from their posts.

This feels a bit nitpicky to me. I don’t know, it’s just to me I don’t expect people to be robots and do everything by the book right away like this and I think this is kinda obvious though? Plus if you look at Lilith it didn’t seem like she was gonna vote you from the impression I got.

630 and the posting before by Raven posts her in my townreads. I think regardless of her stances the progression is obvious and it ties together her posting and makes a bit more sense on why she’s trying to sort slots like Nahdia over the larger content posters.

How do people feel about 638 by Kanna? Do you think scum her goes after Skitter of all people? It's making me scratch my head on how to read it.[/quote]

I think she’s town, her thought processes read very logical and non-agenda-y to me.

[Clover Ebi]

I will admit I've been slowly edging Kanna to my scummy pile but if my townreads are saying she's town I'm more than likely wrong than correct. I should go read Skitter and Nahdia more closely after some tea.

My confident townreads are now looking something like Lilith/Skitter/Beeboy/Raven/Dunnstral

[Clover Ebi]

I feel weird that I don't have a read on Morning/Nahdia yet. Maybe I skimmed their posts? Everyone else I can say something on besides those 2. This isn't really me calling them anything more so me coming to my own shock that I don't have a read on 2 activeish slots

[midwaybear]

Scum historically focuses on LHF because they’re the easiest to mislynch.

Maybe, but my theory was that they will actually focus on tougher targets sometimes to use WIFOM. That's why I initially scumread Dunnstral.

[Clover Ebi]

After reading the Nahdia/Skitter interaction I understand both sides and I think it would be best if meta was taken out of the conversation for the most part. One thing I do want to question though is:

@Nahdia

What do you think Skitters goal here is going from SvS to TvS on you/Raven? It kinda limits her options if she is scum, plus on your townflip from your pov Skitter would look pretty bad. What makes this so it's !scum skitter pushing you vs town skitter not understanding your meta?


I'm sad Votato isn't here anymore so I can't question him on this, but something he pushed me on is that I would always comment on someone's 'second' thoughts instead of actively doing it myself. Well, if that was scummy I don't get why he didn't scumread midway for doing the same thing? This is your spicy take from Clover.

Besides that, midway just seems to be shading slots and I don't really see much progression in his posting? Maybe it's just because his content is mostly one liners but I see barely any early game progression into somehow a reads list. It gets a bit better with the questions later on in the iso, but it just doesn't ring to me as someone trying to scumhunt.

[midwaybear]

who was I shading? votato and raven? Well I think both of them are town now

[Raven Branwen]

I feel weird that I don't have a read on Morning/Nahdia yet. Maybe I skimmed their posts? Everyone else I can say something on besides those 2. This isn't really me calling them anything more so me coming to my own shock that I don't have a read on 2 activeish slots

I really liked 754, it read to me like townie pushback to a bad read. MT, nothing actually pings me so far, so weak townlean for now.

Scum historically focuses on LHF because they’re the easiest to mislynch.

Maybe, but my theory was that they will actually focus on tougher targets sometimes to use WIFOM. That's why I initially scumread Dunnstral.

True, I have seen that as well, so I don’t understand why either Lillith or Skitter think it suspicious that neither Nahdia nor I are being wagoned. My point was that it has been scum more often than town that has tended to go after the least charismatic slots. That’s exactly what happened in the game where I referenced RC for example. Both scum and town deathtunnelled LHF!Lovebird in that game and incorrectly townread scum!Formerfish. He had a real uphill battle convincing everyone that he was right. That’s why I’m always wary when I see LHF getting wagoned, especially on D1. Not saying LHF can never be scum, just that low charisma is a very poor barometer for reading someone on D1 anyway.

[Clover Ebi]

A lot of your iso has little one line shades in it. It also doesn't matter if you think they're town

now

it's the fact I don't understand why you would post a lot of them in the first place.

In your Iso midway you said you have no reads at one point, and that is fine! I can understand having no real confident reads but here is all your posts between having no reads to a semi reads list

Spoiler:

why is Dunnstral town? Just because he isn't as passive as last game?

@votato it seems to me that you are trying to force discussion by making people scumread you. Since I also feel some apathy, I'll take a look at ur posts and see if I can.

nice sheeping

I think votato is town now. There was some early game stuff I didn't really like(like the aggro attitude towards lilith), but there's a lot of townie stuff too. I still don't really get his clover read, but he's been asking a lot of questions and his thoughts don't feel faked so town.

Spoiler:

midway, did you ever elaborate on your beeboy read and why you think he's town? has he done anything that pushes you in one direction or the other since you initially said this?

I don't think I did, but he still remains townie to me. I was understanding what he was saying in 351 about justifying reads, and he seems pretty open with what he's thinking in the moment which is hard to fake(?).

I’m with skitter on this one - nahdia didn’t seem to react to tux at all, only to beeboy’s reaction to tux, which links back to my hypothesis of scum being more at arms’ length from interactions

It's true that there wasn't really any thoughts on tux provided. I don't really think this is necessarily scum-indicative though.

What did you think beeboy’s post meant/what the intentions were behind it and did you think this post was scum-motivated?

I didn't think it was scum-motivated. I just didn't really understand it. I never really got the feeling that votato wanted to take a leadership role, so I didn't get why beeboy was calling him out for being passive.

Spoiler:

[

sometimes scum are just LHF though
not every scum will have a dominant presence in the game

lilith, beeboy, votato, mt are probably town
kanna seems legit
nahdia, skitter, clover, tux have a good amount of posts but I may have not been paying attention
idk about drusilla and raven
dunnstral is probably scum

I don't see how you get to this point with that iso. It feels like posting a reads list just for the sake of it.

[Hoctac]

lonely