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[WaltertheDunce10]

I am just as confused as you are.
Maybe they are just playing mind games.
Unless for some reason they prefer cth/norwee over me but I cannot imagine what scenario.
This vote spread is odd though I expected to be at e-2/1 at the very least due to all the talk.
But isis is the first person to vote for me until after vc.
Weird.

[clidd]

I mean, I can see you being scum and not being bussed.

fr walter is a perfectly adequate hell, but him not getting shoved down the stairs isn't AI

The problem is that I think the slot is too static to be town. Scum and town has reasons to be suspicious of him, but the hesitancy of votes seems to me to come more from town than scum, because town evaluates and reconsiders, while scum only tries to mask a push for reasons that seem "townys" or not suspicious.

Which makes me think is more likely scum not being pushed than town being ignored.

[WaltertheDunce10]

IDK Clidd I mean my views have not changed very much on the slots, yes but it is complicated by the fact I don't have a third towwn that I can go with
It was haya but now IDK maybe cth, but I will need to see more to be truly convinced.
to say that I am getting a better impression as the day has gone on cth is true.

[WaltertheDunce10]

The third scum thing also has me sorta confused on who it might be.

[clidd]

I know, but this is really off. The first vote on you(Isis) is more likely being from town, so town is starting you, not scum. Even when you flip, scum could've got away by using the same reasons as the towns inside the wagon, which is why it would be better for them to eliminate you than giving you a pass to play free.

[clidd]

It would be better if Norwergian at least post something.

[WaltertheDunce10]

It would be better if Norwergian at least post something.

I agree,
Ok I thought of one reason and one only and it seems far fetched though

[clidd]

VOTE: Walter

Sorry Walter, I can see through you.

[WaltertheDunce10]

That is okay, I hope my flip is helpful and haya makes the correct decision on a scum.

[Dannflor]

I don't think the lack of votes on Walter this day phase is necessarily indicative of his alignment. Personally, I've withheld my vote thus far despite my resolve staying mostly the same (Norwee has tempted me) because I wanted time for both Walter to post/spew and GC to catch up without worry that the day will end via quickhammer. I think Isis expressed a similar sentiment. While there could be other reasons for the relatively slow momentum on Walter, I think what I stated at least partially explains that.

There's a possibility that Walter is town and scum is hesitant to "dirty their hands" so to speak on a wagon that could be viewed as LHF. But, I'm rather skeptical of that given I'd expect at least one TMI town read half-way defending Walter for cred if that were truly the case. Instead, every player in the game has shaded or pushed Walter to some degree (Norwee being somewhat of an exception but also not really).

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Walter e-1

[Dannflor]

That is okay, I hope my flip is helpful and haya makes the correct decision on a scum.

Walter straight up has no desire to survive. Usually, both town and scum have different flavors of survivalism. However, Walter has none of that here. Rather, it's scum-flavored survivalism disguised as non-survivalism. Take the above post, Walter has the nice "oh I hope my flip helps town" and "i hope town makes the right decision" going on, but he doesn't actually put anything forward to help Haya make the correct decision or his flip more helpful. Essentially, he's got the LAMIST parts of being okay with dying, without any of the dying desperation townies who know they're about to get miselimed almost always have. He's not trying to make sure his most confident reads get heard. There's no dying "investigate/kill these slots next."

Walter has previously said that clidd is either "being manipulated or is scum" yet is now saying that it's okay that he's dying. There's just so much dissonance in Walter's posts that I don't think is town. He's trying to act like a townie would face death but I think he's missing the desperation that townies actually have when faced with death.

Is it possible Walter is just a really chill dude and isn't confident enough in anything to really push for his flip to mean to something beyond whatever we passively glean from it? Maybeee? But I think that would be an exception.

and I'm sorry if I'm wrong Walter because you seem really cool and I hope you sign up for more mafia games

[NorwegianboyEE]

Sorry i’ve fallen behind. If i miss something remind me, but i’ll read up too.

[Dannflor]

It’s hard for me to make sense of the events on this day with the current info given. Ironically i almost would have preferred a scum in heaven today because then i’d know what to look for. Now it’s 3v4 and i’m kinda clueless with how everyone seemed ok with voting anyone. I’m thinking the GC/Hectic 1v1 is the most likely TvS conflict here so i’d rather vote in here than just Walter. Walter could be scum with anyone imo, so if they maf i’m still unsure where to look.

VOTE: Green Crayon
I would prefer this over Walter. There’s deepwolves somewhere. Only way to explain this "Everyone is so town omg this hard ;(" mood.

Do you think Walter is town?

Smells like low-hanging fruit to me. I wanna vote in GC/Hectic and i’m TR’ing Hectic more than GC right now.

You had Isis as super strong town enough to be heavenened last phase.

Can you talk about that read

I stand by my read at the time. But i don’t see any teams possible where Walter is just sticking out like a sore thumb. Which has made me paranoid of most of my TR’s. There has to be at least 1/2 scum in Isis/Clidd/GC/Dann from my POV and i think GC is the most sus.

I strongly dislike Norwee actively avoiding taking a stance on Walter. He simultaneously "could be scum" but is also brushed off as "LHF." I don't get the sense that Norwee actually town reads Walter, yet eliminating him is apparently a bad idea. The avoidance of defending Walter outright versus just shading everyone else reads like someone who knows Walter is likely dying but wants to take on this paranoid deep-wolves-everywhere stance in the hopes that gets town read. I don't think Norwegian has any real reason to town read Walter except for the fact he feels there are several masterminds at play here. It reads fake versus considering Walter as scum along with potential partners in the Isis/clidd/GC/Dann group. Instead, his purpose here doesn't really seem to be to solve for a team but to sow paranoia.

[Dannflor]

Clidd, if you don’t see that scum are in the towncore then i can only assume you are working for the scum in that group.

I commented on how bad this was but Norwegian, this is so bad. I don't understand your thought process here at all if you are somehow town.

Clidd is obv-town imo. At the very least, he's done a lot of towny things and produced a lot of content. From the perfectly *reasonable* stance of scum reading in the pool of you/Walter, you basically say that you're assuming he might be scum. This is a very shallow 1 dimensional take and I'm not sure how you're trying to sort clidd at all.

You're making sense as demon to me, Norwergian.

That’s cool.
It’s natural to go for easy bait if you TR scum. Makes sense as both alignments for you to suspect me here.

I also don't get that post when combined with this one, where you admit it makes sense for him as town to suspect you. And yet you're attacking him essentially for scum reading you / not looking at a certain pool enough. Again, this seems more focused on getting scum reads concentrated in "the town core" than it does in actually sorting or considering lower slots like walter *along with* potential deep wolves

[Dannflor]

can i interest anyone in VOTE: Cth

i'm being lazy rn, but because of all the things i've said before

I think,

this is also bad.

My first reaction was that this is towny and woo hoo go GC for sticking with your gut blah blah. But after posting two large paragraphs about how meh and somewhat scummy both Norwegian and Walter are, GC reverts back to this vote. Yes, it's GC's original scum read. but with pressure mounting on both Norwegian and Walter, it just seems like a way to either avoid taking responsibility or to shift the topic away from those two. There's no argument for why Cth should be voted over Norwegian or Walter, just readjusting of a tunnel that's lasted since early Heaven Phase and hasn't rest. It doesn't seem like GC is really absorbing the game in that case? There's no taking into account other people's reads or talking about why people find Walter and Norwee so much scummier. It's the position of "those eliminations are fine" but going after what is essentially a vanity wagon instead.

I liked Cthylla's response this Hell phase in contrast to this. I don't think Cythlla has dropped the scum read on GC either, but he has spent some time reevaluating based on Hayasaka's read on him. He's also put GC on hold to sort / eliminate in Norwegian/Walter, which is honestly a much more pressing duty. Cthylla's also doing more than just dropping a paragraph about why each of the slots aren't all that great. He's actively sorting them and asking them questions. In contrast, GC's catchup today looking like the lower limit of what he needed to do to keep getting town read, and then he just slipped back into his tunnel because it let's him avoid seriously consider Norwegian and Walter while still saying that they are "adequate hells."

[Dannflor]

Random thought but I'd feel so bad for Norwee if he rolled scum again. I want to believe he didn't roll it for once

random thought but I thought this post was pretty towny

[Dannflor]

I don't know I think GC/Norwee/Walter is exactly my solve and I don't exactly agree with Cthylla that GC doesn't fit in there.

Although scum are more apt to distance due to associations being high value in this game, there is also encouragement not to heavily bus. This game is basically White Flag in some respects, which means scum truly bussing as a self-propelled strategy is basically to self-destruct. Scum has to hit a precarious balance between the two in this setup. Tbh, I think this team is managing it. Walter knows he has a good chance of dying and is pushing Norwegian heaviest with some light shade at GC. Norwegian knows he's in a not great position and is pushing GC directly. GC is shading both of Norwegian and Walter but avoiding truly pushing either. I mean, I think the scum team is exactly going to be doing things that'll make you not want to put them together as a team, Cythlla, while still keeping each other alive as much as possible. I think that's what is happening with these three

[Dannflor]

anyway walter scum, norwee is just scum his posts are very bad today.

And I think the reasons for townreading GC are a little bunk

Like some of Hayasaka's reasoning consisted of GC holding opinions that don't really benefit scum, but I disagree. The fact that GC goes against consensus a lot by putting clidd as null or whatever else is probably one of the only paths that a scum team that has Norwee/Walter would win. If say, Dann/Isis/clidd/Cythlla is all town, then scum isn't in great shape. They HAVE to break up that block and holding "against the norm" reads like clidd scum is one of the only ways to do that.

[Dannflor]

anyway clidd is in my top tier of town reads

Isis and Cythlla are in the next tier but still basically at the point where I'm not reconsidering until I'm forced to. I have fairly strong town reads on both that keep getting stronger the more I think about them.

And the more I think about the more I think it really is just Walter/Norwegian/GC, but maybe that's the 2am confbias talking. I hope walter does not flip town and make me look stupid

[NorwegianboyEE]

Ok so Walter might be scum with GC like Dann says. Because the way they’re pushing Chutulhu over Walter can show that he is reluctant to buss. I’d expect scum!GC to jump on the opportunity to mislynch town!Walter (or me) today.
Dann isn’t right on me being scum with Walter though, and if i was i’d probably just buss them today.
I’m still struggling with the fact that GC/Walter scum implicates another in one of Clidd/Isis/Dannflor. Presumably one of them would push for me over Walter but then decide against it. I’ll have to read back and see which player would make the most sense in this.
I do not want to vote Walter unless i find out more about this first. Just in case i’m wrong about everything.

[Dannflor]

I had the brief thought that GC was on the right track with saying that Cythlla's interactions with Walter were bad. I was thinking that maybe Cythlla was intentionally drawing out these long engagements with Walter so that when Walter inevitably died Cythlla would look all the better for it. But rereading the interactions I don't get that sense. Especially with Cythlla pushing both Norwegian and Walter simultaneously, I don't think they can be his team at the same time as a bus like that. also doing the thing where Cthylla's like "walter randomly gives me townpings maybe we should go Norwegian instead" in #1292 doesn't really make sense if he's trying to bus either, unless Cythlla thinks he can save walter.

Regardless, I think in general Cthylla's questions have erred on the side of genuine sorting and reconsideration rather than just trying to be right or improve his image. His trajectory seems a little too fluid for that

[NorwegianboyEE]

Then again Cthulhu could fit that narrative ughhhh.

[Dannflor]

Dann isn’t right on me being scum with Walter though, and if i was i’d probably just buss them today.

idk if you're on a team with walter though and you bus

do your think your slot ever goes to heaven? don't you think it's still helled eventually? I don't think that's a very convincing argument because bussing essentially would just lose you the game faster

[Dannflor]

basically my conclusions are as such