[OLD] Open Setup Discussion and Nominations

[Mr. Flay]

It doesn't mean it can't be run again, or similarly. But it's worth looking at that game to see what went right and what went poorly, there.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8144

[armlx]

Actually, I think Loser Mafia was a really good game that should be added to the Open Game list of usable set ups. The numbers were perfectly balanced too.

[Tomato]

Alibi and Kevlar Mafia

3 Mafia
1 Bullet-proof Townie
1 Lynch-proof Townie
5 Townies

Why does everyone ignore Alibi and Kevlar? Is it because you find it boring, or just dull?

Might as well be:
3 Mafia
1 Bulletproof Townie
1 Citizen
5 Townies

The Lynchproof Townie is basically just a role that's modconfirmed once he claims. He'll never be lynched, as it's equivilant to a NL and he should claim before.

[Tomato]

Thinking of that setup made me think of this:

3 Mafia Goons
3 Citizens
3 Townies
3 Villagers

It's 3:9, but it's a lot harder for scum to claim.

[Darox]

Probably been done, but I think this would be a fun setup.

1x Lyncher A
1x Lynchee A
1x Lyncher B
1x Lynchee B
8x Townie

For added amusement, turn one of the townies into a jester.

[Korts]

Thinking of that setup made me think of this:

3 Mafia Goons
3 Citizens
3 Townies
3 Villagers

It's 3:9, but it's a lot harder for scum to claim.

I don't know the numbers, but I'm wary of a 3:9 mountainous.

[Tomato]

But it's not mountainous.

The town know there are exactly 3 of each role, so if more than 3 people claim it, one of them must be scum.

EDIT: Also, if two of a role die early, and the last one isn't counterclaimed, then he becomes confirmed town.

[mith]

Tomato: Obvious scum strategy is to claim one of each (so I wouldn't say it's "hard" for them to claim). You basically have three interlinked games of 1:3. Still very difficult for the town, especially with the parity. Haven't run the numbers, but I don't think it would be significantly different from 3:9 vanilla.

5 groups of 3 would be better (though of course the scum then won't be able to cover all the groups, and 3 of the town will start off confirmed).

yb: 3 Mafia is too strong for that game - the bullet-proof role is strong, in that they can't kill it and it won't get lynched unless one of the Mafia counterclaims, but not nearly strong enough, and the lynch-proof role is mostly useless, as Tomato points out (though not quite equivalent to Citizen, because of the potential for Mafia counterclaiming). Town's best strategy is probably to have everyone claim "immune or not" (but not whether you are bullet or lynch immune).

Here's a variant on the bullet-proof role that might be better (I don't have a name for it yet): Mafia can choose each night to kill using a gun or iocaine powder. Bullet-proof only dies if targeted by iocaine powder, all the other townies have built up an immunity to it. (Substitute "iocaine powder" for whatever, depending on the flavor.) Basically, the Mafia can kill the "bullet-proof" role once they figure out who it is (either by failing the previous night, or through claims).

Tweaked yb setup:

2 Mafia
1 Bullet-proof Variant (see above)
1 Lynch-proof
6 Townies

[Max]

I think also the iocaine powder should be one shot. Then they should only use it when ran.

[Tomato]

Tomato: Obvious scum strategy is to claim one of each (so I wouldn't say it's "hard" for them to claim). You basically have three interlinked games of 1:3. Still very difficult for the town, especially with the parity. Haven't run the numbers, but I don't think it would be significantly different from 3:9 vanilla.

5 groups of 3 would be better (though of course the scum then won't be able to cover all the groups, and 3 of the town will start off confirmed).

That's assuming town massclaims. I don't really see a reason for them to do it. After a couple of days and some deaths, I'd assume it would change quite a bit. If two of the same town role die, all the better.

[Simenon]

Loser Mafia is a work in progress. I'm not sure whether that argues for more testing or more discussion.

[yellowbounder]

Here's a variant on the bullet-proof role that might be better (I don't have a name for it yet): Mafia can choose each night to kill using a gun or iocaine powder. Bullet-proof only dies if targeted by iocaine powder, all the other townies have built up an immunity to it. (Substitute "iocaine powder" for whatever, depending on the flavor.) Basically, the Mafia can kill the "bullet-proof" role once they figure out who it is (either by failing the previous night, or through claims).

Tweaked yb setup:

2 Mafia
1 Bullet-proof Variant (see above)
1 Lynch-proof
6 Townies

Nominate this. Why not

Alibis and Allergies Mafia

?

[Max]

I'd agree with simenon Fiasco may be good at variations but we should try and test a few larger/smaller games with power roles, and see if that sort of thing is possible

[mith]

That's assuming town massclaims. I don't really see a reason for them to do it. After a couple of days and some deaths, I'd assume it would change quite a bit. If two of the same town role die, all the better.

The point of the massclaim is to increase the potential for confirmed innocents - that's the only bonus the town gets in this setup. Without the massclaim, it's just a vanilla setup, except where two of the same role die the third can claim and become confirmed (and immediately die).

The only potential improvement I see is if you could force a massbreadcrumb day 1, then lynch someone, and then the Mafia have to kill blind the first night rather than knowing which group they should kill from (then massreveal of the breadcrumbs day 2, to make the most informed lynch possible).

The parity is a big issue anyway. 12-player with no power should be a night start (and town should no-lynch in a day start).

[mith]

Huh, better than I expected. 3:8 Vanilla is 16.5% for the town, Tomato-setup after a no lynch + massclaim is 28% for the town.

[Tomato]

That's assuming town massclaims. I don't really see a reason for them to do it. After a couple of days and some deaths, I'd assume it would change quite a bit. If two of the same town role die, all the better.

The point of the massclaim is to increase the potential for confirmed innocents - that's the only bonus the town gets in this setup. Without the massclaim, it's just a vanilla setup, except where two of the same role die the third can claim and become confirmed (and immediately die).

Well you obviously only claim if you're going to be lynched, which makes the immediately-die irrelevant as it's preventing a mislynch. I still don't see why town should massclaim on day 1. Seems like it would improve their chances.

Agree on night start.

[mith]

Preventing a mislynch on a single player who will then die the next night isn't worth that much to the town's chances.

A quick example of why massclaim is good here:

Without massclaim, Day 1: 3/11 chance of hitting scum.

With massclaim, Day 1: 1/3 chance of hitting scum. With one of the town roles already dead, there will only be three claims for that role, one of them scum.

If we hit scum Day 1, the scum kill, and then Day 2 with massclaim we have a 1/4 chance of hitting scum (move on to the next type of role). Without massclaim, if the scum hit another of the same town role as Night 1, that role will be able to claim to avoid a mislynch, so we likewise have a 1/4 chance; if they don't hit the same type of role, however, it's 2/9.

If we don't hit scum Day 1, on Day 2 we have a 1/2 chance of hitting scum with massclaim. Without, 1/3.

(Waiting to massclaim day 2 is probably better than no massclaim at all, but almost certainly worse than an immediate massclaim.)

[Crazy]

One thing with the Loser mechanic: A cop is incredibly over-powered and should

never

be in a Loser game.

A vig could work, a doc would be totally pointless, masons could possibly have a place.

I'd like to see the vanilla version (2 scum, 11 townies) run again, though.

Nominate Loser Mafia

[armlx]

Second the Loser Mafia nom

Vig seems much stronger then normal Crazy. Masons would be interesting, but probably no better then just eliminating 2X players from the set up, where X = number of masons.

[gorckat]

I'd like to nominate the

scum-picked lovers

games that

I think Tomato

Crazy proposed in the

hypothetical

theoretical setup thread:

3 scum
9 townies

No NK

Scum pair people as lovers each night and who loves whom is posted publicly each morning.

[armlx]

I'd like to nominate the scum-picked lovers games that I think Tomato Crazy proposed in the hypothetical theoretical setup thread:

3 scum
9 townies

No NK

Scum pair people as lovers each night and who loves whom is posted publicly each morning.

I don't like that set up. The scum just choose the same pairs each night, pair 1 mafia with 1 town, and it just becomes 4-2 nightless.

[Crazy]

Why do you believe the scum would always pick the same pairs?

[Lord Gurgi]

Why do you believe the scum would always pick the same pairs?

Unless it was randomised the town could probably come up with a couple scenarios and lynch the most likely player. With suitable meta knowledge you could break it.

[Crazy]

Why do you believe the scum would always pick the same pairs?

Unless it was randomised the town could probably come up with a couple scenarios and lynch the most likely player. With suitable meta knowledge you could break it.

That's WIFOM.

[Lord Gurgi]

Why do you believe the scum would always pick the same pairs?

Unless it was randomised the town could probably come up with a couple scenarios and lynch the most likely player. With suitable meta knowledge you could break it.

That's WIFOM.

Exactly.