Mini Normal 2159 | Cinder Block Mafia | Game Over!

[RCEnigma]

?

[RCEnigma]

cfj is one of my scumreads... and this was just an observation I made that supports that

I get that. But one of your two scumreads has been close to elim for a few days now and you kinda just....opted to ignore the wagon as a whole until now. Which is cool, looks weird, but it's cool.

[geraintm]

UNVOTE:
reading

Weird opening imo. This is pure gut but more than a bit scummy to me

By the way UNVOTE: a fresh start

huh?

[shellyc]

huh?

The unvote didn't alert me. The uptight entrance of "reading" did. The tone to me was almost like reading the thread was a burden to them.

[RCEnigma]

Every second spent reading mafia is a burden to me.

[ItalianoVD]

People are complaining about something happening but refuse to vote on wagon. Callforjudgment is being scumread. Nosferatu is being scumread. At the moment callforjudgment is the leading wagon so jump on it and we can kill scum. Thrones complaining about wasting time are the ones wasting the time.

What’s up shelly?

[ItalianoVD]

Those not thrones.

[ItalianoVD]

cfj is one of my scumreads... and this was just an observation I made that supports that

I get that. But one of your two scumreads has been close to elim for a few days now and you kinda just....opted to ignore the wagon as a whole until now. Which is cool, looks weird, but it's cool.

No it’s not cool.

[callforjudgement]

People are complaining about something happening but refuse to vote on wagon. Callforjudgment is being scumread. Nosferatu is being scumread. At the moment callforjudgment is the leading wagon so jump on it and we can kill scum. Thrones complaining about wasting time are the ones wasting the time.

You voted me in #382, and since then you've done nothing to push your read on me or try to persuade people to vote for me. (It was unclear from your posting whether you still scumread me or had just left the vote there out of inertia.) Normally, if you're town and think someone's scum, it's worth trying to get more ammunition on them, either to help the wagon get over the line or to help re-evaluate your reads when you discover that maybe a player isn't that scummy after all.

Instead, you've basically been just sitting there, sitting on your read, not even reading the game. (I can tell you aren't reading because you're wrong about the size of wagons: I'm not the leading wagon, but the fourth-largest (third-largest if you ignore the wagon on shelly, which is a joke). The largest wagons are on Walter and on you.)

Also, why haven't you expressed a read since #490? Even if you think you've caught one scum, townies are normally curious about the others as well; and it's nearly always a good idea to allow for the possibility you might be wrong. If nothing else, identifying townies would help make the pool of viable wagons smaller, increasing the chance that your favoured wagon would go through.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

[WaltertheDunce10]

Strange entrance by looker but that is one post.
I love reading.
655, is just really weird in that it sorta shows like cfj said a lack of reading/ disengagement.

[ItalianoVD]

Bah you were the leading wagon until Taylor changed her vote. I missed it initially. Now there are 3 wagons at 3 votes.

[RCEnigma]

Aight I think Frog is scum and it looks like the interaction between him and Nosferatu is scum theatre. Frog’s reason is weak and forced. Nosferatu’s reaction to that weak forced case also seems weak and forced. That’s why my vote is there and will probably stay there. You voting for yourself is never a good idea imo.

I’m feeling a little off about callforjudgment. Very townie. Very beautiful and perfect posts. The best posts in the history of our country. You’ve never seen posts like these before. So beautiful.

This followed by the cfj vote in the very next post sent off all my alarms.

Frog touched on my issues with the cfj slot in a minor capacity and Taylor caught 1 point by pushing cfj's stance on nos.

Slots don't get wagoned for being townie and I have doubts of the validity of your scumread here.

[Frogsterking]

There are three things I wanted to say this afternoon.

#1

I realized I have a feeling that Raya is scum, however, I believe the feeling is caused by the implicit bias of her current avatar which is a wolf, and because of the mafia-like game Werewolves I associate wolf with scum. I view this feeling as NAI and the behavior of the Raya slot as a whole as null because I haven't seen her do anything which would imply to me her alignment is one way or the other.

#2:

In the posts below, I believe I'm beginning to understand what geraintm is referring to. If I'm correct, geraintm is saying he doesn't like it when I or others post an opinion without an explanation or a call to action because it enables scum to formulate their plan ahead of time.

My Taylor vote was a joke but now it’s serious

You have no explanation, but the vote is serious?
This is why you are so infuriating

By the way guys at this point in time I have three serious scum reads and I'll disclose them another time. I also have one other very weak town read I'll ISO now.

I wish people would stop being so cryptic. If you have an opinion then say, don't save them for later when they can be tailored to the game state. That is just potentially scummy...

This leads me to believe that, because of his experience and his choices to play in the way that he does, as well as the meta information quoted in #3 of this post, geraintm is an extremely proactive, defensive and risk averse player who prefers to remain a null slot during the course of the game, and because he has played this way consistently this game I'm reading him as null unless he changes his behavior.

#3

In the same spirit of being proactive and risk averse I'll point out a reason why I believe CFJ is scum ahead of time even though there's no real impetus for me to do so.

In the same post written about geraintm which was helpful in understanding his motivation there's something extremely odd I noticed:

Did you know? part 1: geraintm's vote on Not_Mafia was his RVS vote (#29). It hasn't changed since.

Did you know? part 2: Although the fact in the previous paragraph would be a horrible scumtell coming from almost anyone, it is

not

a scumtell coming from geraintm. In Mini Normal 2153 (where geraintm was VT), geraintm made an RVS vote in that game's #62, and didn't unvote or place another vote until that game's #1377, almost 11 votecounts into that game's day 2 (despite having moderate scumreads elsewhere in many parts of day 1). So I think any tells on geraintm based on bizarre voting behaviour are invalid. (geraintm sometimes moves his vote sooner, but only upon having a very strong read, which he normally doesn't D1.)

day 1 I am nothing but shade. you know it will take a lot on day 1 for me to actually vote someone.

Did you know? part 3: geraintm seems to use the same RVS gimmick every game. This might produce interesting scumhunting information if this fact were generally known (because posting at the critical post count is, in effect, volunteering to be D1 Hated when geraintm is playing). However, I think it's highly likely that the playerlist as a whole was unaware of geraintm's tendency to breadcrumb the algorithm by which he'll subsequently cast his first vote, meaning that it's effectively random (weighted by posting frequency) and provably unmanipulatable (possibly even to the extent of bypassing the rules on provable randomness?). Perhaps if geraintm outright stated "I will vote for the person who posts #22 [or whatever] for the entirety of day 1, check my meta, I do this every game", the gimmick would produce more interesting information for scumhunting purposes; as it is, it's basically just a method of playing that's anti-town, but repeated so consistently that it isn't a scumtell for geraintm in particular.

VOTE: Tayl0r Swift

Did you see anything odd?

I did: the subject of the post, the player geraintm, is not matched with the element that increases the win condition of the game we are playing; the vote at the end, which is on a different player Tayl0r. This seems odd because normally when we vote a player the subject of the post is in some way attached to that player.

It appears as though CFJ is using a specific lying strategy: providing too much information.

[Nosferatu]

I realized I have a feeling that Raya is scum

i...agree!

[callforjudgement]

Did you know? part 1: geraintm's vote on Not_Mafia was his RVS vote (#29). It hasn't changed since.

Did you know? part 2: Although the fact in the previous paragraph would be a horrible scumtell coming from almost anyone, it is

not

a scumtell coming from geraintm. In Mini Normal 2153 (where geraintm was VT), geraintm made an RVS vote in that game's #62, and didn't unvote or place another vote until that game's #1377, almost 11 votecounts into that game's day 2 (despite having moderate scumreads elsewhere in many parts of day 1). So I think any tells on geraintm based on bizarre voting behaviour are invalid. (geraintm sometimes moves his vote sooner, but only upon having a very strong read, which he normally doesn't D1.)

day 1 I am nothing but shade. you know it will take a lot on day 1 for me to actually vote someone.

Did you know? part 3: geraintm seems to use the same RVS gimmick every game. This might produce interesting scumhunting information if this fact were generally known (because posting at the critical post count is, in effect, volunteering to be D1 Hated when geraintm is playing). However, I think it's highly likely that the playerlist as a whole was unaware of geraintm's tendency to breadcrumb the algorithm by which he'll subsequently cast his first vote, meaning that it's effectively random (weighted by posting frequency) and provably unmanipulatable (possibly even to the extent of bypassing the rules on provable randomness?). Perhaps if geraintm outright stated "I will vote for the person who posts #22 [or whatever] for the entirety of day 1, check my meta, I do this every game", the gimmick would produce more interesting information for scumhunting purposes; as it is, it's basically just a method of playing that's anti-town, but repeated so consistently that it isn't a scumtell for geraintm in particular.

VOTE: Tayl0r Swift

Did you see anything odd?

I did: the subject of the post, the player geraintm, is not matched with the element that increases the win condition of the game we are playing; the vote at the end, which is on a different player Tayl0r. This seems odd because normally when we vote a player the subject of the post is in some way attached to that player.

It was related. My previous vote was on geraintm, but my review of geraintm's meta made me think that my scumread on geraintm was based on behaviour that wasn't scummy when coming from geraintm, so I unvoted him (moving my vote to my next-strongest scumread, because in the early game it's generally always a good idea to have a vote out). Perhaps I should have used an explicit unvote tag to make things clearer.

[Nosferatu]

UNVOTE: shellyc

[Looker]

Helpful scumplay is still scumplay
Why do you think it’s worth keeping active scum alive?

Hello, Gamma; I'm excited to play with you.

Walter goes to a stand-up comedy show: Okay but why is he making a joke, what is the point of this?

Are you disappointed with your role pm?

Spoiler:

(PEDIT: re #638)

The reasoning should be correct regardless of my alignment. If you think there's a mistake, please point it out so that I can re-evaluate my reasoning.

I agree that it points towards me as town, but that's hardly a reason not to mention it in thread! Of course, it's harder to be objective about something when it points to you as town, so it's possible I have some confirmation bias here (i.e. "this correctly predicts me as town, so it's more likely to be correct"), in which case it's especially important that you point out any flaws in my reasoning! But "this reasoning benefits CFJ and CFJ is making it" is not a reason to ignore it or consider it invalid.

I think the flaw is the wifom you've attached to it and looking at it from our point of view.

First, I have seen scum wagons sit around in a similar gamestate before. It's not nearly as common as town wagons but this doesn't entirely mean you're town.

Looking in from my point of view I see a player indirectly explaining why they must be town based on the gamestate. One way I can see it is this player is scum and for whatever reason (unhelpful scum mates, avoiding defending of scum mates, etc) has decided to defend himself but in a way that on face value doesn't appear to be a self defense. If someone else pointed it out it would appear more towny but the fact that it was you indirectly defending yourself adds wifom.

Of course I could also see it as town simply making an observation which would allow someone else come to the conclusion that it could point to them being town.

I see all of this as pointless since cfj isn't a wagon you entertained at it's height. Pushing this angle now is counterintuitive.

cfj is one of my scumreads... and this was just an observation I made that supports that

Is the sudden deflation of his wagon suspicious?

Spoiler:

UNVOTE:
reading

Weird opening imo. This is pure gut but more than a bit scummy to me

By the way UNVOTE: a fresh start

huh?

Hello, geraintm; I'm excited to play with you again as well.

UNVOTE:
reading

Weird opening imo. This is pure gut but more than a bit scummy to me

huh?

The unvote didn't alert me. The uptight entrance of "reading" did. The tone to me was almost like reading the thread was a burden to them.

• Depending on the playerlist, reading typically is a burden.
  
• MS players use ego posts so we can find games without having to search for them

Strange entrance by looker but that is one post.
I love reading.
655, is just really weird in that it sorta shows like cfj said a lack of reading/ disengagement.

Strange in what way? That it was an ego post?

Bah you were the leading wagon until Taylor changed her vote. I missed it initially. Now there are 3 wagons at 3 votes.

Is the evaporation of CFJ's wagon suspicious to you?

Spoiler:

There are three things I wanted to say this afternoon.

#1

I realized I have a feeling that Raya is scum, however, I believe the feeling is caused by the implicit bias of her current avatar which is a wolf, and because of the mafia-like game Werewolves I associate wolf with scum. I view this feeling as NAI and the behavior of the Raya slot as a whole as null because I haven't seen her do anything which would imply to me her alignment is one way or the other.

#2:

In the posts below, I believe I'm beginning to understand what geraintm is referring to. If I'm correct, geraintm is saying he doesn't like it when I or others post an opinion without an explanation or a call to action because it enables scum to formulate their plan ahead of time.

My Taylor vote was a joke but now it’s serious

You have no explanation, but the vote is serious?
This is why you are so infuriating

By the way guys at this point in time I have three serious scum reads and I'll disclose them another time. I also have one other very weak town read I'll ISO now.

I wish people would stop being so cryptic. If you have an opinion then say, don't save them for later when they can be tailored to the game state. That is just potentially scummy...

This leads me to believe that, because of his experience and his choices to play in the way that he does, as well as the meta information quoted in #3 of this post, geraintm is an extremely proactive, defensive and risk averse player who prefers to remain a null slot during the course of the game, and because he has played this way consistently this game I'm reading him as null unless he changes his behavior.

#3

In the same spirit of being proactive and risk averse I'll point out a reason why I believe CFJ is scum ahead of time even though there's no real impetus for me to do so.

In the same post written about geraintm which was helpful in understanding his motivation there's something extremely odd I noticed:

Did you know? part 1: geraintm's vote on Not_Mafia was his RVS vote (#29). It hasn't changed since.

Did you know? part 2: Although the fact in the previous paragraph would be a horrible scumtell coming from almost anyone, it is

not

a scumtell coming from geraintm. In Mini Normal 2153 (where geraintm was VT), geraintm made an RVS vote in that game's #62, and didn't unvote or place another vote until that game's #1377, almost 11 votecounts into that game's day 2 (despite having moderate scumreads elsewhere in many parts of day 1). So I think any tells on geraintm based on bizarre voting behaviour are invalid. (geraintm sometimes moves his vote sooner, but only upon having a very strong read, which he normally doesn't D1.)

day 1 I am nothing but shade. you know it will take a lot on day 1 for me to actually vote someone.

Did you know? part 3: geraintm seems to use the same RVS gimmick every game. This might produce interesting scumhunting information if this fact were generally known (because posting at the critical post count is, in effect, volunteering to be D1 Hated when geraintm is playing). However, I think it's highly likely that the playerlist as a whole was unaware of geraintm's tendency to breadcrumb the algorithm by which he'll subsequently cast his first vote, meaning that it's effectively random (weighted by posting frequency) and provably unmanipulatable (possibly even to the extent of bypassing the rules on provable randomness?). Perhaps if geraintm outright stated "I will vote for the person who posts #22 [or whatever] for the entirety of day 1, check my meta, I do this every game", the gimmick would produce more interesting information for scumhunting purposes; as it is, it's basically just a method of playing that's anti-town, but repeated so consistently that it isn't a scumtell for geraintm in particular.

VOTE: Tayl0r Swift

Did you see anything odd?

I did: the subject of the post, the player geraintm, is not matched with the element that increases the win condition of the game we are playing; the vote at the end, which is on a different player Tayl0r. This seems odd because normally when we vote a player the subject of the post is in some way attached to that player.

It appears as though CFJ is using a specific lying strategy: providing too much information.

Do you feel scum have to work harder than town to be persuasive?

Spoiler:

Did you know? part 1: geraintm's vote on Not_Mafia was his RVS vote (#29). It hasn't changed since.

Did you know? part 2: Although the fact in the previous paragraph would be a horrible scumtell coming from almost anyone, it is

not

a scumtell coming from geraintm. In Mini Normal 2153 (where geraintm was VT), geraintm made an RVS vote in that game's #62, and didn't unvote or place another vote until that game's #1377, almost 11 votecounts into that game's day 2 (despite having moderate scumreads elsewhere in many parts of day 1). So I think any tells on geraintm based on bizarre voting behaviour are invalid. (geraintm sometimes moves his vote sooner, but only upon having a very strong read, which he normally doesn't D1.)

day 1 I am nothing but shade. you know it will take a lot on day 1 for me to actually vote someone.

Did you know? part 3: geraintm seems to use the same RVS gimmick every game. This might produce interesting scumhunting information if this fact were generally known (because posting at the critical post count is, in effect, volunteering to be D1 Hated when geraintm is playing). However, I think it's highly likely that the playerlist as a whole was unaware of geraintm's tendency to breadcrumb the algorithm by which he'll subsequently cast his first vote, meaning that it's effectively random (weighted by posting frequency) and provably unmanipulatable (possibly even to the extent of bypassing the rules on provable randomness?). Perhaps if geraintm outright stated "I will vote for the person who posts #22 [or whatever] for the entirety of day 1, check my meta, I do this every game", the gimmick would produce more interesting information for scumhunting purposes; as it is, it's basically just a method of playing that's anti-town, but repeated so consistently that it isn't a scumtell for geraintm in particular.

VOTE: Tayl0r Swift

Did you see anything odd?

I did: the subject of the post, the player geraintm, is not matched with the element that increases the win condition of the game we are playing; the vote at the end, which is on a different player Tayl0r. This seems odd because normally when we vote a player the subject of the post is in some way attached to that player.

It was related. My previous vote was on geraintm, but my review of geraintm's meta made me think that my scumread on geraintm was based on behaviour that wasn't scummy when coming from geraintm, so I unvoted him (moving my vote to my next-strongest scumread, because in the early game it's generally always a good idea to have a vote out). Perhaps I should have used an explicit unvote tag to make things clearer.

Are you mad at me?

VOTE: callforjudgement

[Gamma Emerald]

Helpful scumplay is still scumplay
Why do you think it’s worth keeping active scum alive?

Explain to me how we will lynch three players on D1 and I will.

We won’t. Now explain how anything scum does isn’t going to be in service of an agenda on the macro level

[Gamma Emerald]

Nice to see you again as well Looker

[Gamma Emerald]

Every second spent reading mafia is a burden to me.

Don’t play mafia then

[WaltertheDunce10]

A bit, but the fact you unvoted then put down reading. I probably would have flipped those two around.
As I also noted it was only one post of yours.
Has anything popped out to you in your reading so far?
Also, Looker, in an earlier post I noted the lack of a big wagon, now that has changed since I made it but it reminded me of bugspray D1. Do you think that could be the case here?

[Raya36]

UNVOTE:
reading

Weird opening imo. This is pure gut but more than a bit scummy to me

Seemed like a pretty standard opening to me

[ItalianoVD]

Is the evaporation of CFJ's wagon suspicious to you?

You could say that. I’ll have to look back at where the momentum stopped. IIRC, there were people calling the game boring and asking to make something happen. It was then followed by the claims/gambits, etc. That has me the most suspicious.

@callforjudgment: there were 3 other players on your wagon why are they not getting the same speech? Why didn’t they try to persuade people to vote for you? It’s not my job to make people vote for who I want. Sounds like scum would be okay with doing. And your vote seems like it’s a frustrated vote. I brought the attention back to your wagon and you don’t like it.

[Raya36]

cfj is one of my scumreads... and this was just an observation I made that supports that

I get that. But one of your two scumreads has been close to elim for a few days now and you kinda just....opted to ignore the wagon as a whole until now. Which is cool, looks weird, but it's cool.

I explained it a bit before. It definitely is a bit of a weird case but I'm finding cfj very difficult to read properly and interact with which is kind of why I'm prioritizing Walter, and hoping to be able to get a better ready on cfj when there's more information D2.

[ItalianoVD]

Okay so 573 is where it all started. Then Not_Mafia did his thing. Nosferatu and Frogster followed. Then 579 happened. By the responses in 586 587 & 588, I assumed it was all a joke, but I didn’t know about the roles and whatnot and still don’t (the wiki pages are kinda wack) so I was confused and no one explained it to me so now I’m frustrated.

Then we have 600 (wait for it) Taylor’s post in 602 sounds like scum distancing and fake reading. Then 32 posts later in 634 she votes for Walter which looks like sheeping Not_Mafia.

If the whole claiming nonsense was just jokes and if we’re still joking, then what’s the point of anything?