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Post Post #5300 (ISO) » Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:47 pm

Post by the worst »

tl;dr: like, yeah. unabombah is scum. obviously he's literally confirmed scum to me via lack of quickhammer but hopefully you can all see like a drawn-out expanded version of why i felt so comfortable lolvoting him at the start of this phase?

just like grabbing a few wild points on why his play is literal nonsense but if anyone is super bored and actually not sure who to vote i'd encourage them to have a super brief flick thru the last page (i think it gets better towards the bottom but i was actually really surprised how poor una's d1 was in hindsight).
  • during day one, he had like reasonably likable posts, but very little read progression on a lot of slots. his reads on consensus players did have reasons for them, but the reasons were often ill at odds with the things those players were actually doing to be townread.
  • during day one, and actually fairly consistently through the game, he has been suggesting that people may be scum but really struggling to actually vote them. this is indicative of a guilty conscience, and i think that particularly shines through when he talks about small PoEs with entirely-now-flipped players being scum, but still remains non-voting. this is indicated again by his inability to reflexively crossvote me going into day five.
  • sometime during early d3 (or like, very late d2?), he settled on a tw/iv team and has struggled & ultimately failed to reevaluate like. literally any reads at a substantial level since then. this isn't someone trying to solve the game.
  • his actual push on me is based on like the "3d chess super ninja ultimate laser beam eye scum god" type thing. he originally decided that i was scum because of some like, crumb that he intuited i would have seen or something? which i still don't understand? in the process he has not once stopped to consider that what he's suggesting is coming rom scum!duck is utterly inconsistent with my scum skillset, and actually consistent with the scum skillset of other players in the plist (cough @SS cough).
  • he has continuously suggested that i am absolutely scum, yet has failed to actually follow through on his push. he has voted me exactly once, and tried to prompt a real-time engagement. when i joined in the engagement, he failed to engage in any way that would have meaningfully sorted my alignment and instead came out with the same pattern of perpetually scumreading me without actually trying to carry on with it.
  • he talked around zombie apocalypse like, pretty damn consistently. he didn't really have a read on the slot. he's alleging having realised that SS got a guilty, but seemed very confused about the fact he needed to switch his vote from nepenthes to zombie on d2. in fact he actually unvoted for a chunk of d2 while the action was happening.
  • a lot of his more 'gritty' posting in this game has actually been about mechanics and role interactions, and not about solving the game. the way he talks about and plays his role is focused on making himself appear towny, not on attempting to solve the setup. he misses (imo) fairly obvious prompts that he should be considering what his role means in the greater setup, if he's town.
  • his mechanical play makes a tonne of sense coming from a scum rolestopper. trying to establish a pseudo-leashing on nepethes on day one is like. exactly literally massive ev points for a scum rolestopper.
  • i'm not commenting back through his play today: he is spamming night action wifom and ignoring dayplay. that isn't town who's just been vindicated that their #1 scumread all along was right. that's scum who didn't realise how hard their miselim was going to fight back.
  • SS' case on him contained a lot of evidence that una is a rolestopper. it contained some arguments suggseting that he's town but like, i'd argue reason#3 is just provably not valid (see: page 212) and the fourth is kinda just not really particularly helpful given he wasn't making a specific push because he was active lurking.
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Post Post #5301 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:30 am

Post by lilith2013 »

are yall gonna be mad if i just vote una without waiting for the weekend to effort
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Post Post #5302 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:34 am

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not even remotely but like, i am profoundly biased
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Post Post #5303 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:37 am

Post by lilith2013 »

my major sticking point here is the interactions on D3 (D2? idr what day it is anymore) that I mentioned in my self-quote, that of all the posts una has made, what I remember most is this: una approached duck with a mindset of “duck is scum and here’s how that makes sense in the context of the game” and like trying to cram in a bunch of reasons that could really have been applied to anyone and weren’t specific to duck whatsoever; instead of approaching the game holistically, like “here’s what happened, how do I fit the pieces together to see who is scummiest”
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Post Post #5304 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:38 am

Post by lilith2013 »

obv I don’t think I need to scumcase una to duck, so billy/iv let’s talk about it
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Post Post #5305 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:40 am

Post by lilith2013 »

Oh and I think I came to this conclusion a while ago, but I really wanted to do this phase justice so I’ve kind of been holding back. I think duck’s last page of posting has been really solid though and shows una in the same light I’ve been thinking about him (that is, making up the read and then trying to force the reasons to fit the read rather than coming to the read organically)
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Post Post #5306 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:41 am

Post by lilith2013 »

man if una is really scum, maybe I should just listen to my dissonance brain more often. I felt this way about raven in micro 960 and I thought it was a language thing here but maybe it’s actually a scumdar. that would be great
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Post Post #5307 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:41 am

Post by lilith2013 »

In post 5305, lilith2013 wrote:Oh and I think I came to this conclusion a while ago, but I really wanted to do this phase justice so I’ve kind of been holding back. I think duck’s last page of posting has been really solid though and shows una in the same light I’ve been thinking about him (that is, making up the read and then trying to force the reasons to fit the read rather than coming to the read organically)
“a while” = about 12 hours ago ftr but if it weren’t for my wanting to trust ss on una I think I’d have voted him yesterday
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Post Post #5308 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:43 am

Post by lilith2013 »

I agree with duck though, ss was really casing that una was a rolestopper, which like, I think he is. I just don’t really think that’s town-indicative. Two ungated investigatives plus a gated n1 investigative plus an informed townie
plus a protective
??????? I think it’s way more likely that una is a scum!rolestopper and the rolestopper is meant to protect against the investigatives tbh
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Post Post #5309 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:48 am

Post by lilith2013 »

fuck I wanna vote una RIGHT NOW but I should probably wait for billy and iv to show up
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Post Post #5310 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:53 am

Post by the worst »

i definitely think una was catchable, both tonally and via dayplay. his roleclaim has been really well executed and i'm normally the duck screaming not to townread people for NAI roleclaims.
i've learned a fair bit this game
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Post Post #5311 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:59 am

Post by the worst »

i was gonna try to wifom this but like i guess i should just come out and say it.
i can't work out the partner rn but i've finally succumbed to laziness.
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Post Post #5312 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:07 am

Post by Billy Pilgrim »

In post 5193, lilith2013 wrote:what's preventing rolestopper from being a scum role?
I think I remember making this argument on D2, when I was talking about the order of resolving actions and everybody I was an idiot.
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Post Post #5313 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:15 am

Post by Billy Pilgrim »

In post 5192, the worst wrote:the only actual argument we have FOR the existence of a roleblocker is that una is claiming to have been blocked on n4

straight up i don't think this setup needs a roleblocker if una is a rolestopper + they have an investigative + whatever the fuck else they have
This isn't really responsive to what I'm saying. My initial townread of Una is based on N1. Period. He did some sort of action on Nepenthes (confirmed town pr) that didn't roleblock her. Now, what scum roles target a claimed pr w/o detail? Roleblockers are obvious (but we know he's not that because Nep got the result). Rolecop is like maybe... what else is there? And if people's defense to my mechanical points are that Una is a rolestopper, just scum, then why does he target the town!pr on N1 rather than one of his partners to block a cop or something?

Am I putting a hell of alot of weight on this one thing? Yes. Because this game is mostly noise for me. But ive got a confirmed townie that tracked him to her on N1. And I dont see alot of scenarios where thats scum. Thats literally why I'm asking for them. And for some reason thats getting mad shade.
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Post Post #5314 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:16 am

Post by the worst »

i did address the question in 5313 in my epic walls of eye bleeding fury.
if you'd rather not read those, i'm happy to answer summarily.
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Post Post #5315 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:17 am

Post by Billy Pilgrim »

In post 5195, lilith2013 wrote:idk if you're being deliberately obtuse about this but, like, you know that rolestopper also makes someone ascetic, right??? as in, preventing them from being cleared and/or rolecopped? duck has already mentioned that the pace of clears is really weird given the flips we've had (ungated tracker, ungated rolecop, n1+n4 cop, informed townie). you know what does make sense? a rolestopper that can prevent the number of clears from being gamebreaking in how fast they are..........
Cool, ok, so knowing that, why does he target a claimed town pr on N1 rather than his partner? Like I made these ascetic negative utility arguments on day fucking 2 so im glad now people wanna revisit that discussion. But how does his one confirmed night action fit with that?
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Post Post #5316 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:18 am

Post by lilith2013 »

In post 5198, lilith2013 wrote:also like, it makes sense for scum!rolestopper to target an undefined PR to prevent the town investigatives from clearing the PR claim.
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Post Post #5317 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:18 am

Post by Billy Pilgrim »

In post 5314, the worst wrote:i did address the question in 5313 in my epic walls of eye bleeding fury.
if you'd rather not read those, i'm happy to answer summarily.
Just point me to it. Have I gotten through it yet? Or is it ahead of me in my catchup?
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Post Post #5318 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:18 am

Post by lilith2013 »

please quote where you made these arguments
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Post Post #5319 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:19 am

Post by UnaBombaH »

So apparently my read on lilith was correct, and Ducky has been able to sway her.
Meaning that it doesn't matter if Billy believes me or not, since IV will just hammer me once lilith votes.

I could go ahead and nitpick and counter-argue everything BuDucky had to say there, but I don't honestly feel like it.
I've already admitted that I've been too focused on playing my role, and it has happened to me before as well.
Hell, my first Mini Normal-victory I was a town!Rolecop and I spent most of the game just playing around my results.
I landed the Serial Killer N1 (ausuka/mariomaniac) and one of the scumsters later (Game Replacement - alt of someone \o/ ).
Boonsky was scum there as well, and it was the first time we played together.
RC replaced into the final scumslot and I hammered him in LyLo.
And just like Ducky here, RC was able to spew these amazing walls that "spelled" scum!Thor out to everyone in the dead thread.
And guess what, my claim was true there, and it is here.
My only fault has been defaulting to my own gutreads and focusing on my night actions.
The fact that I have been able to sniff out scum!Ducky is something I am actually proud of, even if I am once more unable to assure the rest of the town.
"If Unah’s scum, consider me a random $20 on the ground, cuz I am pocketed."
-Flavor Leaf to scum!Una
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Post Post #5320 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:19 am

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In post 5317, Billy Pilgrim wrote:
In post 5314, the worst wrote:i did address the question in 5313 in my epic walls of eye bleeding fury.
if you'd rather not read those, i'm happy to answer summarily.
Just point me to it. Have I gotten through it yet? Or is it ahead of me in my catchup?
unfortunately it's ahead of your catchup - i'll go quote it.
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Post Post #5321 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:20 am

Post by Billy Pilgrim »

In post 5198, lilith2013 wrote:also like, it makes sense for scum!rolestopper to target an undefined PR to prevent the town investigatives from clearing the PR claim.
See, this was helpful.
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Post Post #5322 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:22 am

Post by UnaBombaH »

In post 5313, Billy Pilgrim wrote:Am I putting a hell of alot of weight on this one thing? Yes. Because this game is mostly noise for me. But ive got a confirmed townie that tracked him to her on N1. And I dont see alot of scenarios where thats scum. Thats literally why I'm asking for them. And for some reason thats getting mad shade.
Because you are in the right.
Your gut and instincts are correct.
And you are getting shade for it
because my actions make no sense as scum.

You can call anything WIFOM because anything can have two sides to it.
But there are just things that are sub-optimal and stupid for scum to do - for example: why I immediately knew for 100% that S_S was town when he stuck on Zombie D2.
"If Unah’s scum, consider me a random $20 on the ground, cuz I am pocketed."
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Post Post #5323 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:22 am

Post by lilith2013 »

if you had only kept reading before you went off...
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Post Post #5324 (ISO) » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:22 am

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In post 5290, the worst wrote:just reiterating: x-shot neapolitan and x-shot rolestopper heavily indicates a lot of town power. the scumteam need to establish themselves, usually within both VT and TPR cores, and establish themselves convincingly. movement investigative roles are like frighteningly common on mafiascumdotnet (compare to other sites where they tend to just default to alignment investigatives). una crumbed his role on day one and i don't think he was in a position where he could have targeted ANYONE else n1 without spinning some bullshit reason why he didn't protect nep.
In post 5296, the worst wrote:caveat: his mechanical play has been, first and foremost, conducted in this way to look like it's coming from a town protective role. as someone who recently fakeclaimed a town protective in a setup and then acted confused about how high his nk equity was and why he was still alive, this feels weirdly relatable. just remember: una in this game always seems to have a reason for /why/ he's alive and why the NK keeps getting through. and it always makes exactly enough sense to be null as fuck or like, scummy as far as "don't clear this man for that!" scummy goes. his DAYPLAY has been scum indicative.
In post 5299, the worst wrote:so this is like, an incredibly valid point. una was literally vehement about their role interactions at the start of day two. i actually think he exhibited a guilty conscience in the way he SPOKE about what nepenthes was saying, but i'll put that aside because it's tonal and hard to explain.

my issue with this, is that SS is ultimately casing that una is a rolestopper. *not* that una is town. like, in the absence of the mod error / confusing claim coming out of nepenthes, i could buy that it was a town error. but scum who are aware of the manipulative night actions which are taking place, and who don't understand how a townie has been manipulated, are explicitly *not* incentivised to tiptoe around the situation. it is literally beneficial for scum!una to have town!nep look worse here. he's playing this role to be townread based on the role, and he's a fucking rolestopper. like. he knows that it was impossible for her to get the fail pm, regardless of his alignment.
In post 5299, the worst wrote:as an aside i do agree that it makes a lot of sense to try to nullify town investigative results on nepenthes n1 because there is a serious chance of TPRs splashing additional shots on a player like her who just won't die.

(final one is lilith's reasoning more than mine but i think either/both could be valid and correct tbh)

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