Open 796: Haunted Village Game Over

[Infinity 324]

Hi everyone! I've been following this game and all I know is that murdercat is town.

Going to reread a bit and give my reads soon, since I might have a lot of null reads I'll give possible town and scum narratives for those players so people can tell where my head is at, at least.

[Infinity 324]

I'll never understand why any town player jokes about being scum.

Town could joke about being scum in order to get reactions, basically. If you're scumreading her for that, she can then see if your read looks real or fabricated.

Also, wrt Murder's case: This may just be a playstyle clash. I play similarly to murder in that I hate arguing back and forth with my scumreads, it's usually unproductive and players may just not read it or dismiss it as TvT. Engaging my townreads tends to be a more effective strategy since they are the players I am trying to convince to get an elim.

[Infinity 324]

Hi everyone! I've been following this game and all I know is that murdercat is town.

Going to reread a bit and give my reads soon, since I might have a lot of null reads I'll give possible town and scum narratives for those players so people can tell where my head is at, at least.

that's a revelation! Please tell me how you know murdercat is town? and if so, can you please talk some sense into him?

As I said, I play similarly to him and I can almost see inside his head with how he's trying to solve this game. As one example, the antsiness of being 3 days before deadline and not having much activity is very relatable. Scum would generally lurk and let the deadline get closer, reducing information and letting a bad compromise elim go through.

[Infinity 324]

Let me level with you mate...

Murdercat-town gains plenty from talking to me, is seeing what I say and how I engage, and being able to evaluate my reactions and potentially even re-evaluate his own case. You're right it would be unusual for me to say you have an amazing case on me (although I would, and indeed have, acknowledge points of merit). But I think you've slightly missed the point here - Murdercat-town should care more about getting a correct elim today, and be open to the possibility of being wrong. I'm certain that if you're town, you have reasonable doubt about my alignment. Instead, your description of your objective sounds a lot more like eliminating me at all costs. You say you care about my opinion on Taylor - do you have particular questions on it?

Speaking of going back and forth without it being useful...

I don't know what to say, I could give you multiple examples, but I think addressing a case point-by-point is mostly NAI no matter how you do it, and I would even go so far as to say continuing an engagement like that with a scumread is bad play as town.

[Infinity 324]

Hi everyone! I've been following this game and all I know is that murdercat is town.

Going to reread a bit and give my reads soon, since I might have a lot of null reads I'll give possible town and scum narratives for those players so people can tell where my head is at, at least.

This is such a weird entrance. I could read into it but there's too many possibilities. No matter what, I dont like the entrance.

I want to see you read into it. If I had a lot of strong reads going into the game, couldn't scum!me just use those?

[Infinity 324]

Spoiler: good xofelf posts

Why are you so sure it won't?

just ignore her

Fair sentiment, may just. But I'm genuinely curious why she thinks that. The explanation you and Murdercat gave seemed solid enough to me as to why it was a bad idea.

Xofelf, I kind of agree you on the Plus read. He seems a little more calculated than my past experiences with him, which gives me some suspicion of them but much like you say about yourself, Plus is an easy target at times because of his play.

What do you think about his opening post in 35?

Is that more calculated? That just seems a bit "hold up let me get an RVS in here real quick, and also some thoughts real hurried that aren't gonna mean much, but are definitely here." It does ping weird, but I didn't think anything of it cuz it could mean anything really.

Noraa, why do you think it's them?

I did notice as I was reading that you post an awful lot in a row, especially when you're particularly frustrated or annoyed. But I can't tell if this is just frustrated at not being listened to town, or caught scum. But would I be wrong in the assumption that you're a rather emotional player, in that your posts have a lot of that in them? not necessarily that you use them in your reasons.

Yeah I don't care about your meta, I wanna know what you're thinking and why for *this* game. Why is that your scumteam list? Do *you* have meta reasons for thinking its them? Do you have reasons from this game for that?

Either way, I get the sense that xofelf isn't very confident in this game, but these posts give me the sense that they're trying to do their best to contribute and find scum. Scum!xofelf could be faking these in order to coast and point to these as game-solving efforts, but I get the sense that un-confident scum wouldn't be able to fake these as convincingly. Lean town.

[Infinity 324]

@mod, can you fix those spoilers?

[Infinity 324]

You don't think this discussion is helpful? I disagree. And there's lots to be learnt by how people address a case on them. It's forum mafia - what we say and how we say it is all important data right? I guess we disagree philosophically - I'd be interested to see how you form balanced and robust reads if you don't pay attention to people once you have scumread them.

Generally, I feel like players are easier to read when they are not responding to accusations, because then town can feel more free to scumhunt. Certainly depends on the player though. Normally, I try to ask other players, especially townreads, when I am not sure on a read, because getting a second opinion can help distinguish paranoia from useful skepticism. This is why I found it towny that murder asked Isis and noraa about his case on you, because it's probably what I would do in the same position.

[Infinity 324]

@mod, can you fix those spoilers?

interesting read on xoxelf - why them first?

I thought it would be easier since they don't have a ton of posts.

[Infinity 324]

I want to see you read into it.

no. there's not a point bc there's too many possibilities tho I will have you down as trying to buddy murder for now.

Ok, then try to talk through a read with me or give me a strong townread and the reasoning behind in. I'm seeing mainly pushing and defensiveness from your slot, but I want stuff that scum couldn't fake.

[Infinity 324]

@mod, can you fix those spoilers?

interesting read on xoxelf - why them first?

I thought it would be easier since they don't have a ton of posts.

egotisi, dunnstral and 'narwhal' all have fewer posts

Those are harder to articulate an opinion on (also I'm narwhal's slot)

[Infinity 324]

@BM Here, murder is clearly asking for second opinions, or faking doing so. I don't see an attempt to push a narrative, I see an attempt to start a conversation.

Isis come talk to me about this? Are we seeing the same things?

Xof, what do you make of BM?

Is there anyone who is reading town on BM right now? If so, please explain

Noraa look at BM for me, what do you see?

[Infinity 324]

but I want stuff that scum couldn't fake.

scum!me can fake anything imo :3
haven't gotten over my excitement phase after my first scum win a few days ago. It got an extension since I was really upset about my first two games onsite being two scum games of which I lost both.

A solid TR eh? I dont think I have any to be frank. I am not confident in any people being town rn and tho its worrisome, I'm not sure what to do about it so I'm leaving it like that for now.

Idk, your main two reads you've given this game are scumreads based primarily on how people voted you, and I haven't seen much attempt to sort other slots. Not that I couldn't see your play coming from town, but if you're town I think you're just too focused on the suspicion on you and would love to see thoughts directed elsewhere.

[Infinity 324]

@BM Ok well if you are actually town give me something good to read and you'll kill 2 birds with 1 stone, I'll town read you and push tayl0r with you.

@BM This feels like willingness to be dissuaded (though tbf only after you called him out). I may be missing something, but the only place I can see where someone disagreed about the case and murder responded back was here:

BM behaves exactly like this as town yet not like this as scum.

Say more? Respond to what I posted?

which clearly feels like an attempt to continue the engagement.

[Infinity 324]

I'm setting up a townblock with me, exorcist, egotisi and isis. I trust their judgment.

I really like that townblock. Suggest you swap me and Isis, and I can actually roll with that.

What changed on your egotisi read?

[Infinity 324]

@BM Ok well if you are actually town give me something good to read and you'll kill 2 birds with 1 stone, I'll town read you and push tayl0r with you.

@BM This feels like willingness to be dissuaded (though tbf only after you called him out). I may be missing something, but the only place I can see where someone disagreed about the case and murder responded back was here:

BM behaves exactly like this as town yet not like this as scum.

Say more? Respond to what I posted?

which clearly feels like an attempt to continue the engagement.

Yeah, you're missing at least 1 other. I'll let you dig it out as you're on a roll!

And to be clear I think the Noraa example above was an attempt to continue the engagement

with the purpose of persuading Noraa of BM-scum

. not to be persuaded I am town.

I'm a little baffled overall by your defence of Murdercat here. It feels slightly disproportionate given he has no votes on him, and on the face of it, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. You entered the game with a clear predisposition that Murdercat was frustrated town impatient to get an elim agreed before deadline. It seems obvious to me that, regardless of his alignment, he was very keen to make me that elim. You are now arguing that he was actually very open minded and wouldnt have been at all phased by moving to a different target entirely. Which I don't think resonates from his posts, or really stacks up with your initial read on him.

I don't think this exchange is getting anywhere. Murder is my most confident read, so I'm interested in convincing others of it (this could be useful for forming a townbloc, among other things). If you're town, my reasoning clearly just isn't getting through.

[Infinity 324]

based primarily on how people voted you

I sussed plus first so if anything he is OMGUSing me. I explained my progression a few posts ago but was too lazy to go find it. I'll quote it if u can't find it.

The keyword there is primarily, since plus started scumreading you that has seemed to be the main reasoning. Can you give details on any other reads (my slot, murdercat, exorcists, etc.)?

[Infinity 324]

@BM Ok well if you are actually town give me something good to read and you'll kill 2 birds with 1 stone, I'll town read you and push tayl0r with you.

@BM This feels like willingness to be dissuaded (though tbf only after you called him out). I may be missing something, but the only place I can see where someone disagreed about the case and murder responded back was here:

BM behaves exactly like this as town yet not like this as scum.

Say more? Respond to what I posted?

which clearly feels like an attempt to continue the engagement.

Yeah, you're missing at least 1 other. I'll let you dig it out as you're on a roll!

And to be clear I think the Noraa example above was an attempt to continue the engagement

with the purpose of persuading Noraa of BM-scum

. not to be persuaded I am town.

I'm a little baffled overall by your defence of Murdercat here. It feels slightly disproportionate given he has no votes on him, and on the face of it, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. You entered the game with a clear predisposition that Murdercat was frustrated town impatient to get an elim agreed before deadline. It seems obvious to me that, regardless of his alignment, he was very keen to make me that elim. You are now arguing that he was actually very open minded and wouldnt have been at all phased by moving to a different target entirely. Which I don't think resonates from his posts, or really stacks up with your initial read on him.

I don't think this exchange is getting anywhere. Murder is my most confident read, so I'm interested in convincing others of it (this could be useful for forming a townbloc, among other things). If you're town, my reasoning clearly just isn't getting through.

With respect, you might not believe it's helpful to you, but it is helpful to me, so I'd be grateful if you could respond. Simply - if I challenge you on something, you saying "I don't think we're getting anywhere here" and refusing to respond is not constructive.

To be clear, if you can respond well, I am more likely to townread you. If you respond poorly, I am more likely to scumread you. This is how I play the game - you may do it differently, but please indulge me.

Sure. I can't find the second example of murder following up re: his case, if you could quote it that'd be helpful.

I don't think murder was keen on just getting an elim. To me, it seemed like he was keen on finding a

good

elim. That specifically is why it reads town to me. Scum with 3 days left may be able to get away with "let's just elim someone" and vote the biggest or second-biggest wagon. Murder didn't do that, and instead tried to engage with people to get a wagon he was more satisfied in. Sure, maybe he hoped people would just agree with him and the wagon on you would go through, however his posts read to me as if he was willing to be convinced otherwise (this is the part I seem to have difficulty explaining).

based primarily on how people voted you

I sussed plus first so if anything he is OMGUSing me. I explained my progression a few posts ago but was too lazy to go find it. I'll quote it if u can't find it.

The keyword there is primarily, since plus started scumreading you that has seemed to be the main reasoning. Can you give details on any other reads (my slot, murdercat, exorcists, etc.)?

what if noraa turns round and says "I don't think this is getting us anywhere" and stops talking to you? Will you just accept that and townread her?

She hasn't responded to my initial point though? If we're going back and forth and we aren't getting anywhere, I might change my mind, but how I see it is that I made a request of noraa and she hasn't given me anything.

[Infinity 324]

Exorcists: town

Spoiler: quotes and comments

Murdercat, have you ever faked a town-slip as scum before?

-Lance

Almost certainly

If you want my self meta about my scum game I am happy to provide it, but I am usually hesitant to because it is really wifomy and people are then unable to form their own unbiased conclusions.

It won't hurt to hear it. Shoot.

-Lance

As town I hard commit to getting people elimed when I become confident they are scum. This usually involves detailed cases, hard pushes, and actively encouraging my town reads to vote with me. This might happen on D1, but is probably more likely to happen on D2.

I put in effort as scum, so long detailed posts are NAI. I can and have bussed, but I am usually hesitant to do so.

I think the biggest tell in my scum game is that I can't fake the level of enthusiasm I have for eliming scum that I have when town.

As town I will often do somewhat questionable things to provoke reads, which may get me miselimed. I do want to try to tone that back this game and just obv town from the start.

As you can tell I've been thinking a lot about my own meta because I just set up my wiki to include all my completed games the other day

You seem to be very self-aware of your meta. On one hand, I do like that you're willing to voluntarily offer it like this, since I'd guess it'd make you a little more uncomfortable as scum. However, this seems to be the first game where I assume you're trying to eliminate the usefulness of this meta, so I like it, but not as much.

-Lance

I find that scum often ask questions to make them seem useful, but not follow up. Here lance follows up nicely and explains what they got out of the interaction in a way that helps to move the game out of RVS. (Sorry I quoted the whole thing but it's important to my point)

If I am reading the setup rules correctly town has 8 points worth of PR's

but that doesn't tell us how many total because that could change based on how the points were divided up.

Slight scum pings from this because it's self-explanatory. As if Random Canadian wants to fake not knowing about the number of town roles, so elaborates on this point, when it's fairly obvious and shouldn't require elaboration.

-Lance

This is a great point that someone is unlikely to pick up on unless they're really looking for scum.

I read Taylor’s posts back and kind of changed my mind. If that move had the motivation I was thinking of, it’d be brilliant, but I don’t know if it does realistically. I still think Battle Mage’s stance comes from a town POV though.

I like this because it's a unlikely thing for scum to think to fake. Town (and people in general) will often have ideas that they think are clever, but really aren't when they are thought over again.

These posts look fake to me. There's a lot of 'work with me' which I read as disingenuous.

This is tinfoil material, but Noraa was alarmed at how 417 came across as when Alice refuted it, so much so that I think she wouldn't normally make the error if town, and was more focused on faking stances rather than not being mean.

I like this reasoning, especially the point about 417. Again, something that scum probably wouldn't think to fake.

I'm also suspicious of egotisi. They were actually my secret scumread a while back, but that hasn't progressed like I hoped it would. Their earlier posts had a lot of questioning and statements which sounded good (or "correct" for that point in time) but lacked an organic townie feel, and at times, I feel like they're overplaying their transparency. Subtle hints of trying to blend in are very scum indicative to me.

I had the same thought, so reads town.

[Infinity 324]

I can buy the defence of "Murder didn't go with the existing wagons and went to the effort of starting something from scratch, which seems high effort for scum". I'm not sure how strong that is - seems perfectly possible Murder-scum could think he might be able to cruise on suspicion of me for a while, or just didn't want to be on a mis-elim, or was particularly keen to eliminate me while I wasn't able to defend myself. And yes I think we disagree on the fact of whether he appeared willing to be persuaded otherwise or not. In reality, we can see now he HAS been persuaded otherwise, although I think that's in some part due to me engaging with him constructively, which was something you and him both thought would be pointless.

Fair enough. I guess most of the reason he seemed willing to change his mind to me is that he posted pretty much what I would post if I was willing to change my mind.

i'm making a point that your philosophy is that town shouldn't bother debating with people, and should only try and buddy up and work with people they believe they can trust, rather than scumhunting per se. So Noraa could have taken the approach you tried with me, which is saying "nah I don't wanna respond to you, I'd rather talk to people who might townread me/might be easily persuadable".

Not asking noraa to debate me though, I'm asking her to talk reads with me.

[Infinity 324]

I'll try to elaborate more on my murder read later, but again it's mostly having a similar playstyle to me and consistently playing in the same way I play town on d1.

[Infinity 324]

nah we're friends, but i still want you to vote with me. big trust, let's do it!

mmmm I dont wanna

oh go on, i'll let you pick the elim tomorrow!

This tone reads towny to me.

[Infinity 324]

Infinity: im more interested now in your taylor read, given my theory you could be scum together.

although, on noraa, do you agree with my take that her initially refusing to jump to the taylor counterwagon is town-indicative as scum-noraa should have jumped at the chance to save herself?

Don't think taylor has done much AI this game, but I'll have to ISO her.

I agree that it's somewhat tone-indicative, though I'm wondering if she might be waiting to try to find a better reason/counterwagon she can justify more easily. I think she may be worried about being called out for sheeping.

[Infinity 324]

I agree that it's somewhat tone-indicative, though I'm wondering if she might be waiting to try to find a better reason/counterwagon she can justify more easily. I think she may be worried about being called out for sheeping.

uhhhhh so someone tells me to sheep their read and I reject and this theory pops up out of nowhere?
I remember there used to be a good sized wagon on Random eh?
I'll go back there as a compromise wagon.
I do not like the Taylor wagon aorn.
VOTE: Infinity

yeah ive gone back and had a look at a couple of your old games. It's tricky because this feels quite different to either your scum or towngames.

I really like this take. Other people always say its similar to my town or my scum games. However, I personally think all my games r really different so I love this take. I think I will agree with Exorcists on the TR on u.

I’ll get back to reading in a second but I’m curious about the fact Infinity hasn’t interacted with or addressed me yet seeing as he’s got a very good rate of reading me

-GAMMA

Hi gamma, there has been a lot going on in the game so far lol. Can’t really talk about why, but I’m not going to use your past meta to read you this game.

[Infinity 324]

Sorry, meant to respond to noraa by saying that you can’t really expect me to give you benefit of the doubt after not responding to my request to engage. I did say that not sheeping there was town-indicative overalls though.

[Infinity 324]

after not responding to my request to engage.

I sure did respond

I just wanted details on any read besides plus and isis, and you didn’t give any....

[Infinity 324]

I answered and if you have a problem with the answer and my direct solving of other slots afterwards, you can state those but you can't say I didn't engage you.

Yeah you're right, sorry

[Infinity 324]

The odds of my rereading and sift through pages of half ass meta explanation of why we should eliminate x person who is elim bait so we can’t elim them because they always get elimmed goes down and down with each new page

Did you have thoughts on the me/BM/nora interactions on the last few games, or not? I thought there was quite a bit productive that came from it.

[Infinity 324]

I dont particularly think xof is scum and I dont like how fast u jumped off me. I feel a townie would jump on me bc of suspicions that I am scum and investigate and dig around a bit even if only baiting reactions to see what's up. I dont think townies back off this easily and in such a ~pockety~ way. This is something I find strange and I think Isis will be at a scum lean for now bc of that.

Alice, talk to me about nora. I had her at a scumlean but I found this ^ again and I'm having doubts. Do you think scum!nora can fake sorting, just doesn't want to?

PEdit: No cobra, just wanted your thoughts. I kinda felt like dismissing all of it as useless may have been a cop out. I did have the same concerns wrt nora and BM.

[Infinity 324]

these two posts are unbelievably rude considering we dont know each other at all. and that might be coloring my xofelf read. on the other hand, it seems like a really cheap reason to scumread someone and dismiss them without actually having to do any work to sort them, so this also genuinely pings me as scum.

This reads town to me, as I've experienced similar things.

Besides that, I still see barely anything AI in taylor's ISO. I can see some of the things in BM's case (ex. fluff and scumclaiming as a joke being slightly more likely to come from scum) but I just don't think it's enough for a real read. The buddying and stuff reads just like friendly interaction and I find that kind of stuff useful as town because you need to work with people to win. It also just makes the game more enjoyable. I'm mainly just seeing a player who is busy and frustrated about BM tunneling her and not contributing a ton to the game as a result.

[Infinity 324]

Rereading my interactions with Battle Mage lead me to lean town on him. I don't think it's impossible that his interaction with me comes from a scum mindset, but he does seem to be genuinely trying to sort me rather than pushing an agenda. I think it's towny that he wanted to continue the engagement instead of backing off and going "oh look infinity doesn't want to engage must be scum". I also like that he started pushing me on other aspects instead of continuing to harp on the point about the murder read. (I know, I know, you're going to tell me I said the interaction wouldn't get anywhere. Guess I'm jaded for all the pointless TvT arguments I've seen that derail the thread.)

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: egotisi

[Infinity 324]

I'm willing to roll with something like a {me, plus, isis, infinity, gamma} town block right now I think

Wow, explain your plus, isis, and gamma reads?

[Infinity 324]

Egotisi: null leaning scum

In these early quote walls, there are a lot of questions which aren't always followed up on. If they are, they don't lead to a real read. They also often point out things that other people already brought up (e.g. the PR spec thing and murder's unvote potentially being scummy). The scumread on jewel, besides being very hedgy, feels like a way to say "look I have my own opinions" while voting someone who isn't the most active and won't be defended by many people.

Spoiler: egotisi quote walls

my two cents on ~setup specc~, anything going further than the obvious "scum picked [role] so town probably has [the role that is a counterplay to]" is risking slips which are imo more likely to happen to PRs than to scum so let's not

Taylor-town does not give impression of trying. Taylor appears to be trying here. Ergo, Taylor scum.

which taylor posts up until here gave you an impression that she's "trying"? or like, what do you mean by trying here?

This is odd but I actually have 0 clue on who scum could be, and I think taylor vs BM was NAI. I have some weak townreads though.

i found this a bit surprising, at this point i was feeling like i had like one and a half weak townread (exorcists and maaaybe murdercat) with a whole buncha people either being null or south of null (RanCan for stuff, BM with the questionable push, and xof/norwee feeling active-lurky)

can you share your townreads?

also i got the same feeling on the tone from xofelf!

VOTE: Random Canadian

?

-tisi

+1 to please don't call random canadian rc

I saw there were many hydras and that sounds funsies
so I came

you're probably the first person i heard say that (other) hydras sound fun
also hi noraa!!

well im used to RC having decent takes and effort.

also i like the people on the RC wagon.

where does this come from?

hmm this RC wagon is koving kinda fast
i think there could be scum on it

ok, is there any more to this? where / who do you think is the likely scum on the wagon and why?

-tisi

oh no, everyone is spamming, i'll fall behind in postcount with my wallposts D:
maybe i'll stop later i'll see

i can already tell this game is going to be hard work.

that's cool, do you mind answering/elaborating on top of 146?

you say u dont want to spectate then continue to spectate

Are you calling him scummy?

Isis are you town? I feel like your tone is a bit different this game but I really need you to sort Noraa for me

is there history between you/isis/noraa? and talk about your tonal read on isis?

With regard to 146 and 173, why are we being townread?
—Alice

tone + interest in solving the game that didn't feel fake/forced

i like isis for town atm, 211 is what i was thinking at the time

@cobra kai, do you mind getting an avatar? i'm gonna keep mixing up you and BM otherwise, and i don't think i can talk him into getting one

@plus i was going somewhere with bottom of 183, can you pls answer

why would ignoring a shitpost be AI? its lame but its not AI.

i like getting townread and worry about the dumbest shit

my mind is an enigma

bottom of pg 10, gonna grab breakfast, be back in a bit

-tisi

i think we've already learnt quite a lot. an unusually high number of people defending taylor without grounds.

who is actually defending taylor here? like is "not instavoting taylor the second BM asks for it" = "defending taylor"?

murdercat climbing up my reads with 268/269

hmm
isis, why are 279/280 towny to you? like they read like null-to-maaaaybe-nullscum posts to me

i found this a bit surprising, at this point i was feeling like i had like one and a half weak townread (exorcists and maaaybe murdercat) with a whole buncha people either being null or south of null (RanCan for stuff, BM with the questionable push, and xof/norwee feeling active-lurky)

Can you explain what you mean by active-lurky?

active lurking is like, posting meaningless post to appear to be contributing
both your and xof's posts neatly fit into that
like up to that point you were what, making an excuse why you won't post much because logging in is difficult, voting the mod, and joking about clint eastwood

is that all you wanna say after 7 pages? do you have any reads?

-tisi

VOTE: xofelf

The fact that so many people are throwing shade here when I am totally null on them makes me suspicious. Sorry tayl0r, come vote here now let's see what happens.

This is feels like a non-reason(?) for a vote. You find them suspicious because other people find them suspicious? Do you have any other reasons for finding them scummy?

Also:

VOTE: RandomCanadian

I am going to very blatantly hop on this wagon because [reasons to be revealed later]

UNVOTE: by the way, served it's purpose

The idea was that there is likely scum on the wagon, just because it's easier to get 5 votes from 13 players than 10. If you remember from Noir, you had an early wagon on you that involved a vote from PP. I think that scum often takes the opportunity to distance with an early wagon, so I had a theory that Random Canadian might be scum getting hit by that distance vote (also I saw that Random Canadian had logged on but not posted in this thread, which seemed a little off to me considering how early into the game we were). Either way I was curious how votes would react as the wagon accelerated. It's probably not super useful right now but I think it will be nice to look back on after we get some flips. I did hate Isis's vote to leave the wagon but she did the exact same thing in Noir (and I hated it there too ). I'm not sure what to make of your unvote and revote.

Murdercat's progression on this feels off. You give no explanation for it, the wagon deflates after you voted, then you unvote and say it's for a test and it valuable after flips.

Why did you unvote rather than change to a different wagon? I know this may sound menial, but usually unvoting is a reaction to a post or something someone said.

-ego

[edit from the future] alright, so i sat down to read this game. it took me an hour to go through 4 pages. it's past 1am and my brain is not working. mr bailey promised to get to this game after work, i'll get to it when i'm not deceased first thing in the morning. ok cool. thanks. [/edit]

Immediately paranoid of Noraa.

- Norwee

norwee do you have reads

re 334: the reason i asked is because the "there could be scum on this wagon i guess lol bc wagon fast" in very early stages of the game with nothing else pointing at is like. weaksauce and p easy to post as scum, especially if you don't say who and like, do nothing about your "read" there

though at this point i'm thinking i was mentally overreacting about my read about that situation

@egotisi, it’s been a while since you voted, and after expressing suspicion on Murdercat, you didn’t vote him. Is he your strongest scumread? Where are you at the moment?

george wanted to talk to me first, but then we never ended up talking about it
i'm in a vc with him atm, he says the unvote seemed lamist, but the response was fine

right now i'm at trying to read the thread but my eyes are glazing over as it's already past midnight

[consider this a

prodge

preview of an actual post? idk. i was awake until 5:30am yesterday. i'm feeling dead.]

-tisi

anyway. lemme skim some iso's.

i originally voted for canadian because posts like 10 and 18 were giving me a distinct gut-scummy vibe of "i am posting things to appear active and/or helpful while not actually doing anything" (which was a mistake i made in a scumgame semi-recently which stuck to me) and i wanted to see if that would continue. it did not. i've already said why i disliked 478. the read on isis is, in a vacuum, *fine*. the rest of it is like, meh. i wanna see what he brings out once he returns.

xof i still think could be the easy and correct answer for scum, but my other head is telling me they're low-hanging-fruit. i think i'm interested in their read on gamma though, seems like there's meta there.

i've already spoken a bit about jewels in 146/316 and like... norwee is giving me the same vibes he did when i was playing scum against him. like, the closest he has to a read is 394, which like. it's bad. granted, i don't know how to read gamma, but nothing he's done or posted so far is like, jumping out at me or saying ~town~, so.

my current hot take: VOTE: jewel barons

-tisi

posts like 10 and 18 were giving me a distinct gut-scummy vibe of "i am posting things to appear active and/or helpful while not actually doing anything" (which was a mistake i made in a scumgame semi-recently which stuck to me)

This I find very interesting, because egotisi is kinda doing the same thing in this game. Sort of bold to point it out as scum, but I think they probably just aren't aware of it.

All that said, some of this could be a result of not being in the thread, so I'd like to see current thoughts and engage with them at some point if possible.

[Infinity 324]

Infinity 324 (1):

Noraa

Nora, was this supposed to be a compromise vote?

[Infinity 324]

So yes?

[Infinity 324]

I'm sorry if you're town nora and feel like I'm pushing on you unfairly, but I'm not really understanding what you're vote is doing atm.

[Infinity 324]

ofc you "don't understand" what purpose my vote has when its literally on you. But if you are hinting that you are a vanity wagon, I don't understand why you are zoning in on me since there are 6 wagons rn and u can't possibility think only mine is a vanity?

ego is still catching up, and I literally just said their vote is scummy too. Jewel Barons' vote on plus wasn't a vanity vote until you moved off it. Only yours and ego's are vanity.

[Infinity 324]

you call me out for having SRs that are OMGUSy yet I don't see anything different from you.

??? you didn't seem to have a strong scumread on my slot before I replaced in, and neither did ego

[Infinity 324]

Besides you, egotisi is the best vote I think, I’m hoping exorcists will be on board as well

[Infinity 324]

I summarized my reasons in 1112, basically I feel like they’re trying to look like they’re doing stuff but not.

[Infinity 324]

How well I can remember you doing things is a good predictor of scum IMO. Like infinity said, if there were a lot of posts that seemed reasonable at the time but I can't remember anything you actually did maybe they were just be busy posts and not real scum hunting. But I'm not sure if that works as well for a hydra.

Why do you think it’s different for hydras?

Do you think it's likely that Murdercat ISO'd me, and decided he'd quite like to have someone to target to look like he was scumhunting and just tried to construe everything I did as being scummy, when in fact it wasn't?

I think Murdercat is taking posts out of thread context. His answer to *liking* BMs post and then scumreading him is intriguing. Posts in ISO context read very different, and BM's progression on Taylor feels a lot more natural than he cased. I think his post came from a mindset of scumreading first, and then casing second.

VOTE: Murdercat

-ego

Why does taking posts out of context mean it’s scummy here? ISOing someone, by its nature, removes the posts from context.

[Infinity 324]

Why does taking posts out of context mean it’s scummy here? ISOing someone, by its nature, removes the posts from context.

Because it changes the meaning? Scum wants to twist words and make someone easier to attack. Murder took posts that were pages apart and cased them as an overall progression on someone.

Like, he called BM shading us inconsistent with the Taylor read, when it had nothing to do with it.

-ego

I’m wondering why you think it’s unlikely that town!murder built his case off of an ISO, not remembering the original context the posts were written in, and took the posts out of context by accident. Not saying that’s what happened, but it’s a possibility you don’t seem to consider.

[Infinity 324]

I'm willing to roll with something like a {me, plus, isis, infinity, gamma} town block right now I think

Wow, explain your plus, isis, and gamma reads?

why are you challenging every single one except yourself and the person who posted that townblock?

-GAMMA

Cause those are the people I wasn't sure on

???? Like yeah town can do scummy things. That can be an excuse for literally anything scummy. Do you know Murder's meta?

-ego

My argument here is that taking something out of context isn't scummy, at most it's bad play as town.

I've played one game with murder before.

[Infinity 324]

ofc you "don't understand" what purpose my vote has when its literally on you. But if you are hinting that you are a vanity wagon, I don't understand why you are zoning in on me since there are 6 wagons rn and u can't possibility think only mine is a vanity?

ego is still catching up, and I literally just said their vote is scummy too. Jewel Barons' vote on plus wasn't a vanity vote until you moved off it. Only yours and ego's are vanity.

except I'm pretty sure the wagon on your slot was pretty sizeable around the time Noraa voted. Why are you pushing alternative facts, especially ones that seek to make others look worse?

-GAMMA

Really? There wasn't a vote count for a few pages, but I'm pretty sure nora was the first vote on me.

[Infinity 324]

you call me out for having SRs that are OMGUSy yet I don't see anything different from you.
In fact I am the first to SR the people I SRed so if anything they are the OMGUSy ones not me

This feels a little mixed up, just because you were the first out of anyone to suspect X player doesn't mean it's not OMGUS if they suspected you first.

-GAMMA

PEdit: even if Noraa was the first vote, a wagon did form on your slot, so calling it a vanity wagon now is vastly underselling how much the wagon on you mattered, I feel.

There was a wagon on my slot on page 7-8. I don't feel that that's relevant, I felt like nora was just finding a place to park her vote (and potentially argue later that she wasn't trying to save her skin)

[Infinity 324]

Gamma can you elaborate your thoughts on nora a little more? You said you feel conflicted, what are the posts/things nora has done which are conflicting you?

[Infinity 324]

Nora stop sussing people because they vote you

[Infinity 324]

[quote="In post 1158, Isis"
Have there been some aha moments that are really, really close to something you did as town once?[/quote]

There were a couple moments like this. The antiness of being pretty close to deadline and the game being not very active is a big one that I experience a lot as town. Another one is trying to get people to engage over the BM, it very much felt like murder felt like he had something big and was hoping other people would see the same things he did. I believe there were other moments like this too, if you want I can try to find them. Notably, these are not things I would (or maybe even could) fake as scum, other people don't really read them as town and faking an emotion like that is pretty difficult imo. I feel that since I experienced similar things, if murder was scum and trying to fake these emotions they'd feel off to me since I'm so familiar with them and the timing or execution of them would clash with my experience. I hope that makes sense.

[Infinity 324]

However having slightly emotionally driven reads =/= these reads are worthless.

I think that if you're town they're very emotionally driven and you should really take a second look at that.

My read on you is null leaning scum.

I don't feel like I have much to respond to in this case, lmk if you want me to respond to something.

[Infinity 324]

1174 is the most high effort post I've ever seen from Noraa and it makes me super nervous

In what way?

[Infinity 324]

yeah

is it too late to flip Taylor today? I'm very ambitious still

Still don't really get why you want to do this lol

[Infinity 324]

Don't see it sorry

[Infinity 324]

Murder who's scum?

[Infinity 324]

Lol I know I still have 4 people I haven't really given reads on but if you have doubts about the current wagons it'd be nice to hear them now so we have a chance to start a new one

[Infinity 324]

Spoiler: egoposts

i think we've already learnt quite a lot. an unusually high number of people defending taylor without grounds.

who is actually defending taylor here? like is "not instavoting taylor the second BM asks for it" = "defending taylor"?

murdercat climbing up my reads with 268/269

hmm
isis, why are 279/280 towny to you? like they read like null-to-maaaaybe-nullscum posts to me

i found this a bit surprising, at this point i was feeling like i had like one and a half weak townread (exorcists and maaaybe murdercat) with a whole buncha people either being null or south of null (RanCan for stuff, BM with the questionable push, and xof/norwee feeling active-lurky)

Can you explain what you mean by active-lurky?

active lurking is like, posting meaningless post to appear to be contributing
both your and xof's posts neatly fit into that
like up to that point you were what, making an excuse why you won't post much because logging in is difficult, voting the mod, and joking about clint eastwood

is that all you wanna say after 7 pages? do you have any reads?

-tisi

VOTE: xofelf

The fact that so many people are throwing shade here when I am totally null on them makes me suspicious. Sorry tayl0r, come vote here now let's see what happens.

This is feels like a non-reason(?) for a vote. You find them suspicious because other people find them suspicious? Do you have any other reasons for finding them scummy?

Also:

VOTE: RandomCanadian

I am going to very blatantly hop on this wagon because [reasons to be revealed later]

UNVOTE: by the way, served it's purpose

The idea was that there is likely scum on the wagon, just because it's easier to get 5 votes from 13 players than 10. If you remember from Noir, you had an early wagon on you that involved a vote from PP. I think that scum often takes the opportunity to distance with an early wagon, so I had a theory that Random Canadian might be scum getting hit by that distance vote (also I saw that Random Canadian had logged on but not posted in this thread, which seemed a little off to me considering how early into the game we were). Either way I was curious how votes would react as the wagon accelerated. It's probably not super useful right now but I think it will be nice to look back on after we get some flips. I did hate Isis's vote to leave the wagon but she did the exact same thing in Noir (and I hated it there too ). I'm not sure what to make of your unvote and revote.

Murdercat's progression on this feels off. You give no explanation for it, the wagon deflates after you voted, then you unvote and say it's for a test and it valuable after flips.

Why did you unvote rather than change to a different wagon? I know this may sound menial, but usually unvoting is a reaction to a post or something someone said.

-ego

Just gunna point some stuff out as I see it. These posts directly contradict, but are from different heads. I'm not really sure what to make of that, is that just something that happens? Makes me feel like they were not discussing in PT, but I'm not sure why scum wouldn't be aligned in who they are pushing? But maybe it's not that important for scum to be aligned with a push early? I don't have a strong AI read on this but I am curious if anyone makes anything from it.

I think it’s probably more likely to come from town, since scum would probably be more careful about checking with their hydra partner to make sure they didn’t mess up. Not super AI though imo.

[Infinity 324]

Why are you so sure it won't?

i mean it could if the town PRs fuck up and are dumb. but they just have to feign ignorance and not be like "well im the cop so in all the scenarios i consider, therell be a cop"... like if it outs town PRs then itll out scum too, who are also TMI. itll take 2 seconds to go through and look at the possible options for town with 8 points, and then to look at which ones dont make sense given the scum roles.

I really don't think Tayl0r is this bold as scum? I know BM is sure, but like, can you actually imagine typing this out and pressing submit as scum?

I think she really believes what she’s saying regardless of alignment, don’t think it’s

too

bold but ehh

1112 is what I got on egotisi, I’m seeing quite a bit of parroting and questions that don’t really lead anywhere and in general an effort to look useful from egotisi. Note that Alice expressed suspicion of egotisi earlier so that vote makes sense, you have a point about the isis and jewel votes though.

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I mean I guess I see that POV and I did feel like the read on me re the BM stuff kinda came out of nowhere. But I don't know, is there anything in ego's iso that doesn't apply to Dunn? I think Dunn's ego vote was literally the first thing he said about ego all game.

The difference is that dunn isn’t try to look like he’s doing stuff.

[Infinity 324]

I’ll have to check dunn’s meta again, he does seem to be a bit more cautious than I remember him.

[Infinity 324]

Nice. I think ur town. Pointing out zofelfs reasons are NAI is good. This quick convo has me pretty convinced you are town. This reasoning makes me think of you in On this Day.

Why is this towny? It doesn't weaken the case on you much to say just xofelf's reasons are NAI

[Infinity 324]

I did some reading into nora's meta, her tone is so much lighter and much more solvy than this.

[Infinity 324]

Can I just sheep this instead of reading it myself

Sure, didn't you play a game with town!nora?

[Infinity 324]

Isis, I'd be interested by your thoughts on nora.

[Infinity 324]

Oh oops you gave them recently. Nvm

[Infinity 324]

ISO'd plus, he's like null leaning town for me. Gut says lazy scum would be more obvious, and 851 and 868 read town to me. I also agree with whoever said that 1104 probably is a town mindset, scum just posts PR spec in the pt I think.

Plus, why do you read taylor as town?

[Infinity 324]

I literally said they were town.

I pointed out something I didn't like. Is that a problem?

Hrrrm I think this posting make Noraa town but I’m also concerned for her an a level that has no impact on my read on her.

I feel like scum!nora just has a emotional reaction to people voting her and these posts are trying to justify it.

[Infinity 324]

Eh I don’t think you’re giving her a fair shake
Honestly I feel like your normally-critical mind has been a bit dull so far this game. It’s not a point against you rn as there’s a couple non-alignment based reasons I can see for it. I’m just a little wary of you.

It’s possible I’m confbiased, talk me out of it when you get the chance.

I feel like my attempts to read other slots have been good though at least?

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: Nora

Sure. E-1

[Infinity 324]

Wait plus unvoted

[Infinity 324]

Imo you should do it now in case there's a claim so we have enough time to sort out the aftermath.

[Infinity 324]

I only have two leans rn and they are weak asf

Might be conf biased, but this sort of fence sitting seems AI for scum Noraa

Tbf I think she had trouble finding reads in another town game (arthropods?)

[Infinity 324]

@mod I think xofelf is voting nora as of 1152

[Infinity 324]

Spoiler: town nora

I read thru most of 72's posts and this one doesn't have good reasoning if you ask me. Plus prolly did read thru everything but that one post stood out to him bc I'm guessing based on past experience, he knows that noobs r easy to pocket and saw Echo's post as pocketing. It seems to me like fair reasoning even tho Echo's intent wasn't to pocket but to someone that just replaced in, I'm sure it does look pretty sus.

Your conclusion was that plus and shelly were scum. Personally I think that what you have on plus rn is nowhere near enough evidence to be saying he is scum. He hasn't done anything that strikes me as sus so far. As for shelly, I have to agree that her tone was a bit off but idk if it's just me but I feel like I wouldn't have the best responses to anything if I reached E-2 that fast. Ik it's just Echo joking around ig but I'm sure seeing Vote:shelly a bunch of times from him wasn't exactly pleasant on the receiving end. And after people all started voting her, even the tiniest bit of "suspiciousness" in her posts got brought up. Other people were sus too but people seemed to only focus on her bc she was the one closest to getting eliminated. You said so urself that it should still be RVS so why are people honing in on one person?

lurker confirmed. it's happened twice. Both times he was prodded and both times he jumped on the wagon to eliminate shelly(except his first vote was invalid). Jumping on the wagon isn't that sus tbh cuz I do understand the arguments on why shelly is sus but each time he's prodded, he immediately posts something which confirms he's lurking and that's pretty sus.

@PlusJOYED
"my gut tells me that maybe one of them is scum but no way both of them r"
"maybe one of them is scum"
"MAYBE"
if that wasn't clear enough, it means that I think anything is possible except both of u being scum. I would also think that if the two mafia were smart, they wouldn't ever talk to each other. That way no one would ever think they r related but u talked to shelly a lot soooo that def makes me think u two aren't the mafia.

Yeah that can be a noob scumtell. One thing I was taught is that mafia partners can have a problem of not wanting to say if their buddy is scum or town. Though they still have to talk to each other to a lesser degree

Ok now that I think about it, it would prolly be a lil sus if two people had absolutely zero interaction with each other so ig a lil is normal. But seriously like y'all talked a TON. That doesn't strike me as something the mafia would have the guts to do under any circumstance. Also lol this is gonna sound really stupid but uh when u said "yeah that can be a noob scumtell" is that supposed to mean noobs determine who is scum based on reasons like this or you read me as a scum? Idk I get what scumread means which is saying I think ur a scum but idk what scumtell is.

shell seems t be srsly solving
plus isnt

Sirius I want to hear your take on this game. you haven't been posting much so I find it unfair that I can't bring myself to scumread u which results in me only being able to scumread other people that have been talking more when u could be scum choosing to watch town rip itself apart.

The difference is night and day imo

[Infinity 324]

I think she does shit like that as scum for wine purposes

[Infinity 324]

In these early quote walls,

there are a lot of questions which aren't always followed up on. If they are, they don't lead to a real read.

They also often point out things that other people already brought up (e.g. the PR spec thing and murder's unvote potentially being scummy). The scumread on jewel,

besides being very hedgy

, feels like a way to say "look I have my own opinions" while voting someone who isn't the most active and won't be defended by many people.

(1) yeah. that's how i play. not every question has a direct purpose. some are just to see if the answer Inspires me. if it doesn't, then tough luck.
(2) not sure what you mean by hedgy here? like i think i've been scumleaning/reading jewel barons pretty consistently?

-tisi

“granted, idk how to read gamma, but nothing he’s done is particularly town”

That’s what I mean by hedge

[Infinity 324]

“granted, idk how to read gamma, but nothing he’s done is particularly town”

"i''m scumreading norwee and the other head isn't doing anything town" doesn't really read as a hedge to me but i might be biased who knows lel

-tisi

Maybe that was the wrong word, it pinged me for some reason.

Basically I’m scumreading Nora because it doesn’t feel like she’s trying to solve the game, she’s mainly scumreading people for votes on her and not doing much to sort other slots. Meta is way off from her town game imo and pretty similar to scum (low solviness, high AtE). The Taylor read in 1272 makes no sense and feels like she made it up to have a TR.

[Infinity 324]

Tisi, thoughts on isis?

[Infinity 324]

Yeah there's definitely a ton of interesting stuff to analyze once we get a flip

[Infinity 324]

Murder do you want to give intent so nora can claim? Don't see us getting much else out of this day, unless you have serious doubts.

[Infinity 324]

@Gamma I know I wanted to talk to you about nora, but I'm pretty confident this is scum and I want to have time to move off in case of confirmable claim or something

[Infinity 324]

Nora needs to claim today.

[Infinity 324]

My head hurts from trying to do pre-flip wagon analysis. Let's run up nora.

[Infinity 324]

[Infinity 324]

Nora already softed pr. I’m

really

suspicious of everyone being fine with the nora elim and getting off at the last minute for no discernible reason, without even a claim.

[Infinity 324]

i do think noraa would reveal a lot at least. If Noraa red im pretty sure the team is Noraa/Ego/Taylor in an alternate universe.
I don"t think we're in that world.

Honestly it could be. But I also just think that it can be hard to justify blatantly putting your vote on a counterwagon, and it’s something I’ve had trouble with as scum. Another possibility is that scum were on Taylor/tisi as a counterwagon but couldn’t push it effectively since they weren’t active enough. I feel like there is too much to speculate on here without a flip.

[Infinity 324]

First, I want a claim.

[Infinity 324]

I never ever die day 1 as scum bc I'm always highly townread in my scum games.... In all my finished, I died day 3 or didn't die at all.
Honestly speaking, if I'm highly SRed day 1, I'm definitely town. If I'm not, it depends.
Since y'all r taking so much meta stuff into account, I figured this was necessary

You were pretty highly SRed when you first started playing from replacing in MafiaSunny. This tell is voided.

I’m pretty sure she also said that she’s never been under a ton of pressure as town lol

[Infinity 324]

VT is the best role.

I kind of wanted to be in control of the hammer but I trust Alice I guess

Noraa is still E-2 right? If so I'll vote

Pretty sure it's E-3 lol, taylor and plus unvoted

[Infinity 324]

infinity - are you strong?

?

[Infinity 324]

Not sure I buy the claim, but maybe I'm conf biased. I could do ego or maybe xof today.

[Infinity 324]

I'd love to see someone come in now with a novel suggestion which isnt the 2 claimed VTs and Ego.

Dunnstral?

[Infinity 324]

I don't want to claim and will be pretty salty to have to claim today.

I don't feel like this lines up super well emotionally, feel like nora was just using more wine

[Infinity 324]

I'd love to see someone come in now with a novel suggestion which isnt the 2 claimed VTs and Ego.

Dunnstral?

it's novel. i like it. you gonna case it?

Not really, I just remember dunn being less cautious with wording as town and I think scum could've easily wagoned town!dunn

[Infinity 324]

Murder was in that set of weak scumreads I’d put out earlier, and I at least feel like BM has acted towny since then, and I kinda wanna TR the way Noraa talked about considering claiming a random PR. Doesn’t seem like a scum mindset for fakeclaiming.

I feel like that's exactly a scum mindset.

[Infinity 324]

I don't want ego to flip cuz that's not going to give any information.

Don't agree, I feel like it gives us a lot of info in terms of wagon analysis

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: egotisi

[Infinity 324]

Gamma, do you still want to do egotisi? My preference is still nora tbh.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: noraa

I think gamma is town here btw.

[Infinity 324]

Pretty sure it's E-3 with me, plus, gamma, and cobra on the wagon.

[Infinity 324]

@Cobra see 1112 for reasoning on ego scum.

I’m probably gonna take alice’s advice and chill for a bit, I have work to do anyway.

[Infinity 324]

if y'all just mis-elimmed noraa, take a long hard look at yourselves during the night-phase, and flip taylor tomorrow like i've been saying all game.

and alternatively, if you're scum noraa....haha I knew it! I had you all along....

I don’t like this positioning

I read that as a joke

[Infinity 324]

Isis are you scum?

[Infinity 324]

No

Awesome Thoughts on taylor and dunnstral?

[Infinity 324]

I haven't liked any of Taylor's play after liking the "YAS LOOK AT ME" post. I can't remember very much of it and like

MURDERCAT

says that's probably bad.

Hmm, I feel like taylor hasn't really posted a ton since, and she's been kinda forgettable for most of the game.

[Infinity 324]

Hmm ok

Do you have thoughts about the gamestate rn? BM seems to think all/most of the wagons are on town, what are your thoughts? Do you agree with murder that scum are likely to be lurking?

[Infinity 324]

Hmm ok

Do you have thoughts about the gamestate rn? BM seems to think all/most of the wagons are on town, what are your thoughts? Do you agree with murder that scum are likely to be lurking?

@isis

[Infinity 324]

Lol BM

Anyone feeling this?

VOTE: isis

[Infinity 324]

Idk, the way the wagons worked out yesterday I kinda feel like ego is town. There wasn't really a CW on them, their wagon popped up really fast and scum seemed to be fine with the gamestate of ego + nora being the top wagons

PEdit: VOTE: ego

[Infinity 324]

I believe that E-1, I would like to have some time in the day to talk about stuff, don't think scum can really use the info here. Ego being scum does make me a little less suspicious of isis, but I would like to hear her thoughts about the game atm

PEdit: :/

[Infinity 324]

Why does ego flipping scum make you feel better about isis?

That vote didn't look like a bus, there were other counterwagons that isis could've gone to.

Plus, you should definitely shoot someone. I think taylor

[Infinity 324]

I’m confused about who killed cobra, I think we massclaim?

I had a whole case written up on isis but I guess we’ll be boring and do the mech solve thing

[Infinity 324]

Ok maybe exorcists shot cobra. Then we have 1 other 2-power role, assuming plus is town. So healer, angel, or a fourth WH. I guess they don’t have to claim if they don’t have results, though an angel claim might help us PoE things down.

[Infinity 324]

Unless we have a 4th WH:

Plus shoots Taylor
Exorcists shoot cobra
Scum kill exorcists

Not sure what cobra’s result was, but I want isis today nonetheless. Exorcists probably inno’d dunn but idk

[Infinity 324]

The fact that isis wants people to claim makes me not want people to. I’ll post the case in a bit, have to make sure it’s readable to anyone else lol

[Infinity 324]

Infinity, why do you feel like MURDERCAT's "style" being close to yours proves a point that he's town? Like, usually when someone's playstyle is closer to mine, I have the opposite reaction, I get paranoid that I might townread them for something that's going to be part of how they play both alignments when they might really be scum. I spent a long time townreading scum in Nightless Vanilla because of this, also with a player I was meeting for the first time.

The first thing that worried me about isis was this, she seemed to realize it didn't have anything to do with my alignment so not really sure why she brought it up? It felt like she was maybe trying to break up town synergy

Spoiler: BM/taylor opinions

My mind might change as I finish this catchup but I think the scummiest active player left to me is Battle Mage with a lot of the remaining scum equity on quieter slots like Tayl0r.

Noraa has lots of unfairly caught scum vibes, but then I keep changing my mind

I think doing something with my vote is better than nothing so I'll go VOTE: Taylor for now.

Somewhat scummy that she'd warn people her energy was going to be lower instead of waiting to get pressured since she's usually so devil may care.

I'm townreading lots of things

Much of my thinking was that his read progressions don't make sense and the way he is mentioning reads doesn't fit well into pushing a player he wants to flip and trying to get other people to vote that person too, or being suspicious of someone and asking questions of that person to figure them out. It's a lot of tossing and changing places for no reason.

Generally when he articulates reasons they make sense, but it doesn't make sense that he is where his.

Like even if you spot him good faith on whatever excuse he is going to say about Datisi, why would he say, "I would be happy flipping egotisi today" while voting me and not seeming to scumread me any less than that scumleany reason he came up with? Shouldn't you be unhappy if you don't get your first choice?

Positioning is what I had in mind.
I kind of agree that Exorcists is bleeding obvtown though, whether that is scummy would just be paranoia over whether the weird timing of it was "I just reread some isos and Exorcists' obvtown iso is screamy" or "my partners pointed out/I realized I'm not townreading many people and Exorcists probably isn't getting voted out anyways" but I don't know how you'd pick one of those over the other.
Swift and Battle mage probably aren't both scum, and Swift doesn't look great either though?

Looking back, the progression on BM/taylor here is bad and I'm not seeing a natural emotional reaction to the BM/taylor interactions. Like, she doesn't talk about BM's case on taylor at all, which is odd. Since they are two of her top scumreads, the case would be a natural thing to analyze to get alignment-relevant info. It feels like she's trying to set up mislims on one or both.

I feel better about Swift, I liked the "YAS LOOK AT ME" post, because I think she came up with it out of a genuine desire to see herself talked about which she liked in Menagerie and I think she didn't seem to like in Noir.

There are a lot of instances like this where isis seems to be looking for reasons to read people rather reading the thread than letting them come.

Battle Mage - still feel pretty good here. I almost want to indulge the poor man with his Taylor elim even though I don't really see it.
egotisi - I would be skeptical of someone willfully ignoring alignment indicative information "for honor", but I had an aha moment that Datisi did in fact do that in Autumnal. I think the spew is actually alignment indicative, but, if Gamma's posting read null to me maybe I would feel more guilty
I'm not sure how to read egotisi.

MURDERCAT

calling my vote weak broke me a little inside and makes me feel like I don't have much I can bring to bear against the slot. I don't know who posted it but someone else said they seem like they are summarizing and feel IIoAish a lot and I think that's most of it.
...
Noraa - I want to hammer this soon. It seems more like she's faking townslips than townslipping to me, which is also like, something I would say metaphorically about the way she's been playing the game, not just mechanics stuff.
I think this is a point Infinity may have made or tried to make or maybe not, but, WIFOM is part of the game, and pushing for an interpretation of play that has some amount of weakness to WIFOM is part of the game, but making WIFOM arguments without appreciating or acknowledging the wine seems to come from scum more often than town. It's something I've experienced. In theory it could help both town and scum survive, it's one of those things I feel I don't have to understand to use as a guide just because it's a pattern I've seen before. So it's scum indicative. It's not like a brightline rule that you should start every other sentence with "I know this is WIFOM but" to be allowed to post, but there's something about the attitude and presentation that can differ. I don't think this will flip VT.

Here, the SR on egotisi weakens for weak reasons. The nora SR also feels manufactured to me. Another example of looking for reasons for a read. Something I noticed here and other places is the attempt to have original reasons almost for the sake of it. If a lot of other people agree with a read, town often feels less need to justify it, whereas scum may be worried about being called out for sheeping. Similarly to BM's case on taylor, it's also very weird that she doesn't really talk about others' reasons for voting nora. (She says here that I made the WIFOM point when I didn't, and in any case it was clear that wasn't my central point against nora). Talking about "indulging" BM with him taylor elim along with...

I haven't liked any of Taylor's play after liking the "YAS LOOK AT ME" post. I can't remember very much of it and like

MURDERCAT

says that's probably bad.

seems like a made-up progression. Normally when I TR people and then forget about them I tend to keep TR'ing them unless I reread, it takes effort to question an established read. Feels like setting up a mislim on taylor.

1720, because it feels like "scum are probably lurking but I want to justify my nora vote anyway".

Now it feels like she's confbiasing on murder when she didn't seem to have a strong SR to begin with? Rather than focusing on her apparent top scumreads, me and xof.

[Infinity 324]

Unless we have a 4th WH:

Plus shoots Taylor
Exorcists shoot cobra
Scum kill exorcists

Not sure what cobra’s result was, but I want isis today nonetheless. Exorcists probably inno’d dunn but idk

that'd make no sense. why would they pick strongman then? they could of gotten avenger or something better for 4 joats

WH is worth 2 points. We have 2 flipped WH's plus you, that makes 6 points. We have at least 8, since scum has 5 (rb + strongman + rolecop).

[Infinity 324]

I do think cobra had a guilty on isis, probably wasn't expecting to die so he wanted to get a track off.

[Infinity 324]

Sus Isis, I think she faked medbay scan

Lol you can't fake medbay

[Infinity 324]

Maybe isis is strongman?

[Infinity 324]

I think we just lim the guilty here, last scum is in {gamma, xof}. If scum has strongman and isis is town, we're left with me, murder, gamma, xof, dunn. We lim xof, dunn is NK'ed. Me, murder, gamma in lylo. I'm confident enough murder is town to go there, and it's

very

unlikely.

[Infinity 324]

Please don't say "just lim the guilty". Like that unnecessarily adds to the frustration of getting mislimmed for stuff totally independent of all the play I put into the game.
Pick some other way to describe it please.

Sorry

I do think you're scum regardless though.

[Infinity 324]

Please don't say "just lim the guilty". Like that unnecessarily adds to the frustration of getting mislimmed for stuff totally independent of all the play I put into the game.
Pick some other way to describe it please.

Really hope this is just scum AtE, if it's not I feel really bad I enjoyed playing with you a lot

[Infinity 324]

I mean we could also just yeet xofelf? I feel better towards gamma than xof and we are in the same position tomorrow if we miss right?

There's 2 PRs left among scum, I don't particularly want to wait

[Infinity 324]

I think isis is understandably very upset that scum got fucked by 2 cop guilties.

[Infinity 324]

I mean we could also just yeet xofelf? I feel better towards gamma than xof and we are in the same position tomorrow if we miss right?

There's 2 PRs left among scum, I don't particularly want to wait

I’m curious how you intend for that math to work when we have 2 scum alive.

3 PR's*

and idk, either it's 2/1 or 3/0 in terms of how they're distributed. I just think this game gets easier the more scum we lim since they have fewer night actions.

[Infinity 324]

Oh that should make it easy

Anything else people want to talk about or?

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: isis

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE: Ok we can talk about stuff. I am actually more suspicious of gamma than xof, mainly cause of his play today. Though maybe it's just cause I expect townies to all be confident when it's likely town wins and gamma doesn't seem to be. I would like to hear his reads, because he seems to be throwing shade at a lot of people.

[Infinity 324]

Well the thing is I’m doubtful this is going to be a town win. Especially with you trusting MCat for ??? reasons, when I find MCat rather suspect

Gamma if I'm town murder is town. Promise.

[Infinity 324]

Why does scum!dunn cc isis here when we were basically gonna clear him?

[Infinity 324]

Well the thing is I’m doubtful this is going to be a town win. Especially with you trusting MCat for ??? reasons, when I find MCat rather suspect

Gamma if I'm town murder is town. Promise.

I don’t trust this AT ALL.

You think I'm wrong or scum?

[Infinity 324]

No, you're not wrong on that Infinity, that would be a very ridiculous play from scum, and I don't think Dunn is that kind of weird as a player. What I mean is more, okay if that is what's up, then what does that mean exactly?

We probably have 1 other commuter in the setup (or maybe another 1-point PR). Scum probably took strongman to have healer as a safeclaim.

I think you’re scum versus wrong, because if it’s a scenario where your wrong I don’t understand why MCat is the person you’re being wrong about. You behaved in a very specific way to me early that you don’t seem to have followed through on.

Do you want to elaborate on this?

[Infinity 324]

Hi everyone! I've been following this game and all I know is that murdercat is town.

Going to reread a bit and give my reads soon, since I might have a lot of null reads I'll give possible town and scum narratives for those players so people can tell where my head is at, at least.

How confident was this at the time? What were you seeing from MCat?

I was very confident. 1177 is the best way I could describe it, he's constantly thinking along the same lines as I am, and there's a natural-ness to how he plays that I can't describe but matches up with how I play as town.

[Infinity 324]

But then who killed Cobra? Like if there's 2 WH, scum kills exorcists who kills Taylor. There's no way for it to work given the flips right?

I guess cobra killed taylor in that scenario.

[Infinity 324]

Gamma, you've changed your playstyle so much from when we last played together that I'm not as confident in reading you anymore. I'd probably have to ISO you again. (I do think that question is towny though)

[Infinity 324]

@Gamma I was following 2171 for a while and thought you were scum there for similar reasons, which is what's giving me pause here.

[Infinity 324]

I think isis is understandably very upset that scum got fucked by 2 cop guilties.

on the flip side vigs killed 2 townies. it is what it is.

Yeah but the townies were in the PoE, so it was still good for town. They may have been limmed anyway. Unfortunately cobra isn't still alive, but he crumbed his result so

[Infinity 324]

Gamma I want to see you trying to figure out who's scum.

[Infinity 324]

Let's wait for people to talk about what they need to. There's no rush

[Infinity 324]

No, you're not wrong on that Infinity, that would be a very ridiculous play from scum, and I don't think Dunn is that kind of weird as a player. What I mean is more, okay if that is what's up, then what does that mean exactly?

We probably have 1 other commuter in the setup (or maybe another 1-point PR). Scum probably took strongman to have healer as a safeclaim.

Strongman interacts with both possible 1 point roles, and there's two of those.

The other one of which does not need to claim today

Nah, this rolestopper doesn't stop kills anyway

[Infinity 324]

Spell Shield: protects the target from harmful magical abilities, but will not stop normal kills

[Infinity 324]

Check the wiki. It's a ~special~ (bad) rolestopper

[Infinity 324]

Yes, thanks for reminding me. We should do VCA and partner analysis tomorrow/during night/now if people want before we decide if we want to go gamma or xof first

[Infinity 324]

Why are people just clumping me with xof tbh

PoE

[Infinity 324]

Yeah we're only ever limming isis today (sorry isis ). But people want time to figure stuff out, so we should give it to them.

[Infinity 324]

I’m VT and very confused, I don’t think you should’ve claimed but

[Infinity 324]

Dunn probably fakeclaimed

[Infinity 324]

Let’s wait for dunn

[Infinity 324]

Oh didn't realize gamma claimed commuter wtf

[Infinity 324]

Why could we have 9 points but not 10? But also, why would we have 9 or 10 points unless scum is wining the hell out of us? Please let dunn be fakeclaiming and confirm it's isis/gamma

[Infinity 324]

I'm VT I literally just have a soul read on murder that's all it is. It never changed since d1.

[Infinity 324]

Oh

[Infinity 324]

We either have 8 points (in which case it's gg because last 2 scum are guaranteed in {isis, plus, murder}) or we have 9 points and Dunn was faking.

I think it's isis/gamma, we have 8 points and dunn was faking.

[Infinity 324]

@MOD can scum pick roles freely within their power limit or do they have to pick their limit’s worth?

I did mix up the setup but maybe I mixed it up in a way that was accidentally correct?

The way I read the set up, scum may choose to sacrifice some of their points, as long as there was a valid set up that did not go over the point limit presented to them, I did not need to assign roles.

[Infinity 324]

Ok I mean we can talk about that I guess, but I don't think gamma fakes there with a role that is known to be not in setup

Ugh you're right

[Infinity 324]

???????
Why’d you state you wouldn’t meta me earlier @Infin? I know you kinda spoke on that already but it wasn’t a full enough explanation of what you were thinking
VOTE: Isis
I’m just about ready for the day to be over. I need to think hard about this game tonight.

It was related to ongoing games, in mini 2171 you were not playing to the town meta I knew.

[Infinity 324]

What is my “town meta” to you? I know I have a consistent scum pattern I’ve shown in games with you, I haven’t detected any sort of trend in my town games with you.

I remember in the newbie and some other games you were super eager and wanted to get the game moving as much as possible at all times. Your tone has changed a lot since then, which means I have to approach reading you differently.

[Infinity 324]

Makes sense

[Infinity 324]

I think scum big brained themselves

[Infinity 324]

Murder I think you just got unlucky

[Infinity 324]

Let’s wait for dunn

[Infinity 324]

The only reason we are limming isis is because of my beautiful case in 1849

[Infinity 324]

I feel like you haven’t been putting them in bigger context though?

[Infinity 324]

I'm pretty sure we win even if you're somehow town, we just get plus and murder

[Infinity 324]

True, we'll figure it out when we get there I guess

[Infinity 324]

Yeah! I think that's why I chose it

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: isis ok

[Infinity 324]

I guess gamma just tried a desperate move, but trying to lim the cop who guiltied scum is like...no

That’s for when we’re in Lylo and nothing fucking makes sense anymore

If it’s not isis/gamma I’ll give up on logic forever

[Infinity 324]

Gamma I feel like dunn being scum makes the most sense fypov

[Infinity 324]

Gg everyone, I enjoyed this playerlist quite a bit, wish we had gotten to play real mafia for a bit longer though.

As for the setup, I think 4-6 points might work out a bit better than 5-8.

[Infinity 324]

Good shit gamma, would probably never had caught you on play.

[Infinity 324]

the infinity-MCat townpair

Infinity is the best

<3

[Infinity 324]

Also sorry noraa for pushing for your lim d1

[Infinity 324]

Isis you went down fighting that’s for sure.

[Infinity 324]

Isis you went down fighting that’s for sure.

What about me?

You too I mean isis was actual confirmed scum though.

[Infinity 324]

I think this is also an example of scum outplaying themselves a little bit. The d1 bus on egotisi made it more likely for them to get copped, and that + only taking 5 points of roles means you’re more likely to lose to mechanics. Not that you deserved it in any way but

[Infinity 324]

"only taking five points of roles" dude I would have picked those roles if they costed 7 points, we didn't do it for the massclaim mind games, those were actually the best roles.

Rolecop is the only time that counterplays trickster, and we thought there were probably 3

You thought there were 3 tricksters?

[Infinity 324]

Ok, normally I consider rolecop weakish but that makes sense

[Infinity 324]

The framer seemed pretty scary tbh

[Infinity 324]

Also I thought scum did get full setup info? "The undead are told which village roles are in the game"

[Infinity 324]

Oh I see.

[Infinity 324]

4 witch hunters seems more likely the way I read the setup, but I could be wrong

[Infinity 324]

Intuitively I don't expect Joat having double chances to generate to produce quadruple Joats. That would be off by 2x. If their double chance to generate somehow generates equal Joats. That's off by 1x. That was my napkin math

I mean you already know there's at least 3 joats in the setup though

[Infinity 324]

It was a tough game for scum, in the end it mostly just came down to setup.

[Infinity 324]

Tayl0r was so obvtown

Really?

[Infinity 324]

gg! I was in Exorcists. I think we probably should've lurked more and not crumbed to survive longer, but it didn't matter at the end of the day.

Norwee's scum magnetism is rubbing off on you, Isis. You gotta be careful when you play with him in future.

What a cameo