RandomGem wrote:Got kinda lazy by the end of that post... Uh, I recognize 2 distinct entities between you two, and have trouble matching one to a name. 'Cause of those stupid avatars. Just like how Artem switched his... oh well, I'll catch it this time...
thinktank: xkcd map -> homer simpson in a blue suit -> bart simpson/nirvana album
ShadowLurker: ...eek, I can't remember -> jigglypuff
It was ShadowLurker who defended you:
ShadowLurker wrote:RandomGem has made many other contributions and it's obvious his self voting was just to stir up discussion in the early game.
It might help you to know that at the bottom of the thread, there is a drop-down menu where you can filter to read only a single players posts. It helps when looking for something someone said, or to analyse someone's posts in isolation.
I\'m very suspicious of ShadowLurker. Reasons right now I would prefer not saying (although I will reveal them very soon), but I would like to know what ShadowLurker thinks about all of the other players.
Artem wrote:"This is interesting..." is a weasel word too.
One prime difference is that I was not using it to illustrate suspicion, you were.
Fenchurch wrote:
Artem wrote:Drfiter's claim is different than both of these in the sense that he first claims vanilla (ok, could be newb-town that doesn't know any better like the two I linked), but then goes back on himself with "the mafia don't know if I'm a power-role". (I'm reading that as mafia realizing he's in trouble and attempting to fish for power-roles for his buddy.)
Erk, I know I'm not supposed to defend people... but I just don't read it like this at all. To me:
1. Drifter claims vanilla.
2. Drifter gets told that early claiming is bad for the town.
3. Drifter understands this, doesn't want to look bad for the town, and so tries to pretend to the mafia that his vanilla claim might have been a lie. (Probably unaware of Lynch-all-Liars policy, or of the fact that if we believe he was lying before, then why should we trust him on anything else).
4. Drifter either believes that his backtracking has worked, or is trying to convince us that it has, hence "mafia don't know whether I am a power role or not".
You're ignoring all his subsequent behavior, especially how hard it was to get anything out of him in regards to why he claimed. The thing that I don't like about him is taht if he didn't want to look bad for the town, then certainly being entirely uncooperative would not be the best way to go about that. Could you also provide the names of the people who claimed early in the three games you linked as I don't want to read three whole games =/
Artem, claiming protownness is drastically different from claiming vanilla.
chapter 5, I just gave them a couple days ago, not going to copy and paste them again. Have you been reading the thread?
:sadtorch Ken Hoang, A.D/Fuzzie, Cameron Ferris, Taj Johnson-George, Annie Duke, Patti Blagojevich, Maria/Tiffany :sadtorch
:torch Tammy/Victor, Dan/Jordan
ShadowLurker wrote:Could you also provide the names of the people who claimed early in the three games you linked as I don't want to read three whole games =/
I already did
It was a single game, two players claimed vanilla on Day 1. I provided direct links to the claim posts (the players' names were The Pope's Tiara and Syphen), and a link to another player's post which summarised these event. Post 268
ShadowLurker wrote:You're ignoring all his subsequent behavior, especially how hard it was to get anything out of him in regards to why he claimed. The thing that I don't like about him is taht if he didn't want to look bad for the town, then certainly being entirely uncooperative would not be the best way to go about that.
By your reasoning then, he was uncooperative because he DID want to look bad for the town? Given that he eventually gave a reason for his claim, I think it is more likely that he didn't know how important it was to explain himself, and perhaps even thought that by not talking then about it people might forget it happened (I think there are newbies who come here not expecting the amount of analysis and deliberation that goes on). I admit these are assumptions I'm making, but I'd say Drifter wasn't especially good at expressing himself - and on that basis I think some of the things he did were mistakes but not scumtells.
Conversely: I can't see any reason for a mafia player to claim vanilla. If there is a chance they can avoid a lynch without claiming, then that is always the best option, and if there isn't a chance, then it would make more sense to claim a power-role. Claiming vanilla eliminates your option to later try and claim a power role. Can you find me a game where a mafia player has claimed vanilla, especially early on Day 1?
The one thing I do find suspicious about the claim business is Drifter using the word "vanilla". Drifter later said that he hasn't played mafia online before, and I'm not sure whether the term vanilla is used in real world games.
ShadowLurker wrote:Also,
Unvote Drifter
because I don't want to see someone hammer, accidentally or otherwise, while he's being replaced.
Drifter has been at L-1 for the last two pages. What makes you concerned about him getting hammered now?
thinktank wrote:yep
Please can you answer the questions Drifter and I asked in posts 259 and 260.
1 - “No comments on my lurking?”
Why are you trying to draw attention to yourself? This doesn’t really come off a scummy to me, but I’m rather annoyed that you are lurking, only to post “I’m lurking”
2 – “As for ShadowLurker's aggressiveness, it seems fitting for an IC, but on the other hand, he seems to have missed certain things in the thread, so I do not believe it is quite fitting.”
This seems to me to be an attempt to bring ShadowLurker out into the spotlight. He didn’t really explain what SL seems to be skipping over. However, I believe that I have not gone into great detail in the past, either.
3 – Fenchurch wrote:
I say this, because my feeling is that most of you attacking Drifter are barking up the wrong tree. To me, his actions come off as newbie town more than they do scum.
“I believe this too, and think his actions don't really indicate that he is scum, but on the other hand, it can't exactly be ignored because then if he was scum he would have a free ride for the whole game. Such is the game...”
So…? What’s up? What’s the choice, Sherlock?
4 – “Upon chapter 5's explanation, I made a (very very) quick scan. Fenchurch, I have found a random gem avatar to comply with your wishes.”
Buddying up?
5 – “Of course it's possible. I personally wouldn't claim at 3 votes, and if I was hypothetically scum, I wouldn't risk claiming a power role, and would claim townie instead. But now that I think about it, that's pretty much a useless claim. If I was at L-1 and pretty much going to be lynched, I would claim doc. I would hope for a counterclaim, because then my partner could kill him that night. This would only be a desperation/suicide move though, since it's pretty likely to fail.”
Probably the only post of his that I find to be a scumtell. If you didn’t want WIFOM and suspicion, why didn’t you just type “Of course it’s possible.”
6 – “I can see that my predicting scum tactics was a bad idea, just like I thought it would be. (But I didn't want to erase it since I had spent so much time...) At any rate, my analysis was more revealing what I personally would do, and not exactly a prediction of other people.”
I’d be surprised if you’d spent more than five minutes on the scumtactics guess.
7 – “I'd agree here too - Fenchurch's posts do in fact get longer after the pressure, but who wouldn't spend more time defending themselves?”
I think this is a good example that he’s trying to please everyone. “Yes he could be scummy, but then again maybe not.” Doesn’t really help much.
Aand, that’s all I could find interesting to me. Above all, I really don’t think he’s scummy. Why do you people get all over his self-vote? How is that scummy, it wouldn’t help scum or town.
Yay.
Drifter seems to have picked up his prod but has not posted. Since that prod contained an explicit warning, I will begin *sigh* searching for a replacement.
i think shadowlurker should have one vote for him from chapter 5.
however i am not suspicious of him at all. i am as sure as one can be at this point for drifter's scumminess. and as the posts go on Fenchurch's obvious defending of him raises some flags for me as well. i know he says he just wants to avoid a rushed lynch, which i agree with, he does so in such a manner that is questionable.
drifter has added nothing to this game, in fact has has convoluted it, just what mafia would want to do, confuse everyone. i stand firm.
lifeofpie: Was your post about RandomGem in response to a request, or is it just information that you are volunteering? I'm not complaining, just not clear whether I missed a post somewhere that prompted it.
thegeckoj wrote:Fenchurch's obvious defending of him raises some flags for me as well. i know he says he just wants to avoid a rushed lynch, which i agree with, he does so in such a manner that is questionable.
I'm a "she" - not that it offends me or anything, but reading this sentence confused me. There is a little gender icon just under my avatar.
I wouldn't exactly say I want to avoid a rushed lynch; I'm just not as convinced by some of the arguments that have been given for voting Drifter, and it seems only sensible to question them now rather than afterwards. The answers given might lead me make me change my mind.
Also, thinktank has said he doesn't support the Drifter lynch, and has yet to give his reasons why. I'd like to have a good understanding of everyone's position, before we choose to end the day.
That said, I still think Drifter is probably the best lynch we have at the moment, and I'm not sure why ShadowLurker is backing off now. I don't see the benefit in waiting for a replacement: either we think what Drifter has done already is scummy enough to lynch him, or we don't.
thegeckoj wrote:idrifter has added nothing to this game, in fact has has convoluted it, just what mafia would want to do, confuse everyone. i stand firm.
Okay so here is an example of an argument where I will need a bit more explanation to persuade me. What do you mean by, he has convoluted the game? Which of his actions were intended to confuse, and how have they helped him?
The main thing Drifter has done is make himself the target of discussion - which I think if he was mafia he would want to avoid. You imply that he has been deliberately misleading, if I am to believe Drifter as mafia, I think his game has been anything
It was kinda by your request, to write a couple sentences about people. That and folks saying that I haven't contributed much. I'm just doing these sorta casually, so don't expect me to finish for a while. I'l probably leave yours until last because It's kinda daunting to go through all of your posts. Also, I am waaaaaay too lazy to put stuff in quoteboxes.
"Okay so here is an example of an argument where I will need a bit more explanation to persuade me. What do you mean by, he has convoluted the game?"
A quickie - Drifter claimed vanilla, said he might be a power (hungry) role.
I've changed my mind. I tend to do that from time to time. As more evidence tends to come in, opinions change and at this point, I believe drifter's actions have not been deliberate.
I find Fenchurch suspicious because it seems she gets quite defensive under pressure as well as overly verbose.
Armlx: What has he done to make you think he's scum.
Mizzy: Other than not scumhunt, not post much as of late other than jokes and lurk a bit?
Fenchurch wrote:I'm a "she" - not that it offends me or anything, but reading this sentence confused me. There is a little gender icon just under my avatar.
No worries. Could you answer the questions I asked in post 287? I know lifeofpie has posted his response, which I appreciate, but I'd like to hear yours as well.
thegeckoj wrote:idrifter has added nothing to this game, in fact has has convoluted it, just what mafia would want to do, confuse everyone. i stand firm.
Okay so here is an example of an argument where I will need a bit more explanation to persuade me. What do you mean by, he has convoluted the game? Which of his actions were intended to confuse, and how have they helped him?
he has convoluted the game be stating things then going back on them multiple times.
he first claims he is a townie, then claims he is a vanilla townie, then he claims he isnt going to talk about his role anymore because he wants to keep it 'ambiguous.' this is just newbie scum talk. he claimed the exact opposite of what he was and when people call him out he starts to back out, his explanation is he thought there was a time limit on the day. why would that even matter, why would you want to be the first to claim? if i was unsure of time limits and online protocol i would have waited for someone else to claim before i did.
this is all suspicious. the reason i said convoluted is because he repeatedly uses the excuse that he is new to online mafia. this is hard to read as there are some first timers (myself included) who make mistakes so now it really is hard to decide if he just doest know what is going on or if he is a really bad scum.
ShadowLurker wrote:chapter 5, I just gave them a couple days ago, not going to copy and paste them again. Have you been reading the thread?
Yes, I saw that. I don't know how much those were "thoughts" but instead little one sentence blurbs intended to satisfy the town. Call this gut and nothing else, but I'm convinced you're scum. Hopefully I notice something in the future. I've tried rereading the thread but all I get is this big target sign on ShadowLurker for reasons I can't figure out.
Fenchurch wrote:
By your reasoning then, he was uncooperative because he DID want to look bad for the town? Given that he eventually gave a reason for his claim, I think it is more likely that he didn't know how important it was to explain himself, and perhaps even thought that by not talking then about it people might forget it happened (I think there are newbies who come here not expecting the amount of analysis and deliberation that goes on). I admit these are assumptions I'm making, but I'd say Drifter wasn't especially good at expressing himself - and on that basis I think some of the things he did were mistakes but not scumtells.
Conversely: I can't see any reason for a mafia player to claim vanilla. If there is a chance they can avoid a lynch without claiming, then that is always the best option, and if there isn't a chance, then it would make more sense to claim a power-role. Claiming vanilla eliminates your option to later try and claim a power role. Can you find me a game where a mafia player has claimed vanilla, especially early on Day 1?
The one thing I do find suspicious about the claim business is Drifter using the word "vanilla". Drifter later said that he hasn't played mafia online before, and I'm not sure whether the term vanilla is used in real world games.
Haven't read the game just yet. Not enough time until next week at least.
He was uncooperative not
because
of something but simply because with this being his first game, he is incapable of ideal play (cooperating is ideal for both town and scum there obviously) which I agree is newbieness. But the newbie scum mindset from my experience is much more likely to lurk and hope those things go away or just brush over them. The thing is, his actual reasons were poor and were basically just playing the newbie card and they took so long.
The thing about Drifter's claim that bothers me is that he first claimed townie, and then went back and emphasized that using the different word, "vanilla." Now in standard, townie just means saying you're town which means nothing but Drifter tried to claim immediately as if he was extremely worried. Once again, newbie scum would be the only ones who would actually have something to worry about. A newbie town would know there is nothing against them that early.
Fenchurch wrote:Drifter has been at L-1 for the last two pages. What makes you concerned about him getting hammered now?
As he's shown that he's deliberately lurking now and getting replaced and I want to hear what the replacement has to say.
chapter 5 wrote:
ShadowLurker wrote:chapter 5, I just gave them a couple days ago, not going to copy and paste them again. Have you been reading the thread?
Yes, I saw that. I don't know how much those were "thoughts" but instead little one sentence blurbs intended to satisfy the town. Call this gut and nothing else, but I'm convinced you're scum. Hopefully I notice something in the future. I've tried rereading the thread but all I get is this big target sign on ShadowLurker for reasons I can't figure out.
...And these are the "reasons" that you're going to reveal later? Without anything substantive, I'm going to have to ignore your case as there's not anything I can actually respond to.
:sadtorch Ken Hoang, A.D/Fuzzie, Cameron Ferris, Taj Johnson-George, Annie Duke, Patti Blagojevich, Maria/Tiffany :sadtorch
:torch Tammy/Victor, Dan/Jordan
ShadowLurker wrote:chapter 5, I just gave them a couple days ago, not going to copy and paste them again. Have you been reading the thread?
Yes, I saw that. I don't know how much those were "thoughts" but instead little one sentence blurbs intended to satisfy the town. Call this gut and nothing else, but I'm convinced you're scum. Hopefully I notice something in the future. I've tried rereading the thread but all I get is this big target sign on ShadowLurker for reasons I can't figure out.
Ironically, I get that feeling about you.
I think that you attempted to start a wagon on Fenchurch and when that wagon wasn't picking up steam, you unvoted and went to lurking.
thegeckoj wrote:he first claims he is a townie, then claims he is a vanilla townie, then he claims he isnt going to talk about his role anymore because he wants to keep it 'ambiguous.' this is just newbie scum talk.
What makes you so sure that these things indicate newbie scum? I've posted a link to a game where two newb-town players claimed vanilla early on. Can you find a link to a game where an early vanilla claim was made by scum?
lifeofpie wrote:he made the mistake of claiming with just one (or two? Not quite sure. There weren’t very many) vote on himself.
ShadowLurker wrote:Drifter tried to claim immediately as if he was extremely worried.... A newbie town would know there is nothing against them that early.
As RandomGem mentioned at the time, the vanilla claim came just after a votecount where Drifter had 3 votes and his name was in red. If someone was used playing rapid games with lots of quicklynches, then I think this would be a reasonable time for them to claim.
ShadowLurker wrote:But the newbie scum mindset from my experience is much more likely to lurk and hope those things go away or just brush over them.
This I can't argue with.
Regarding thinktank:
thinktank wrote:I've changed my mind. I tend to do that from time to time. As more evidence tends to come in, opinions change and at this point, I believe drifter's actions have not been deliberate.
The fact that you changed your mind was obvious, I asked
what
made you change it, and "more evidence" is not really a sufficient answer. What makes you think Drifter's actions aren't deliberate? And even if they're not deliberate, what makes you think they aren't scummy? You seem to be intent on posting as little as possible, which bothers me.
Regarding chapter 5:
Stating the obvious perhaps, all I can say is his/her gameplay seems very deliberate, but I can't tell whether it's coming from scum or town. Posts very little, but leaves pretty much no areas open for questioning - or at least I have so far been unable to come up with any.
