Open 805 Panic Room Day 1

[catboi]

Σ(*ﾉ´>ω<｡`)ﾉ Hello!

I thought this game could use another cat~

Will start reading up (*･ω･)✎

[catboi]

Murdercat looks like a good vote based on his ISO, but I'd feel bad betraying a fellow cat (｡•́︿•̀｡)

[catboi]

Probably, but bomb-hunting day 1 seems like a fool's errand, if someone is scummy vote them IMO

on skims, Dany&dragon, infinity, and gamma look townie, and no, there is no rhyme or reason to who I'm choosing to look at, this is all gut and I reserve the right to change my mind at any time

[catboi]

Nay, while the ultimate chance of hitting the bomb D1 is low I think the process itself has other valuable outcomes

-Dumbass

Ehhh, do you have an idea of where to go with the process? To me murdercat is the one person that looks scummy, then there's a confusing null morass of {salsabil, n_m, penguin, yyotta}, and everyone else seems all right. This is all from surface-level ISO-skimming, though. I don't know what the bomb

would

be doing but I feel as though it'd depend heavily on the player that drew the role and mafia aren't necessarily going to go out of their way to defend the bomb on day 1 (which would also depend pretty heavily on who is scum).

[catboi]

Murder/yyotta could actually be s/s, that might be big braining it a little much, but it kinda looks that way. I'd be sad if both the other cats in this game are scum without me :<

[catboi]

Probably, but bomb-hunting day 1 seems like a fool's errand, if someone is scummy vote them IMO

on skims, Dany&dragon, infinity, and gamma look townie, and no, there is no rhyme or reason to who I'm choosing to look at, this is all gut and I reserve the right to change my mind at any time

So... how do you tell a bomb apart from a goon?

Don't ask me ┐(´ｰ｀)┌

Tell me, yyotta, cat to cat: what are your thoughts on MURDERCAT this game?

[catboi]

Sorry everyone I have to cut this short, but I hope to be back later tonight

Sorry everyone, I was officially burnt out. But I am fully back now. Sorry for contributing the game dying a bit.
If you think I'm scum because I'm playing lazy then so be it. But I am back now, and I hope I've earned the benefit of the doubt because I am a strong town player when I get going.

In fairness, I don't think it's because you're playing lazy

[catboi]

I was originally townreading MURDERCAT because he doesn't seem scummy to me. But then the MURDERCAT wagon built up and now I have no idea.

What did you think of his vote on you? You never responded to the points he made against you

[catboi]

Upon pondering murdercat's attempt at a case and briefly skimming PP's meta, I conclude he is still dead null.

[catboi]

Do you mind looking in his ISO and pointing to where that started?

On an unrelated note, I didn’t really like gamma’s reaction to me vs auro, repeatedly saying it was pointless and then not bothering to try to redirect or offer any game-related content. I don’t have much, if any, experience playing with him but I feel like he doesn’t really feel interested in solving.

- Daenerys

I thought on a skim he wasn't bad but I keep forgetting he's a player in this game, probably because he hasn't posted since I joined.

Re: murdercat pushing penguin, I think town!penguin is a deceivingly easy-looking push for scum to make. I’m not sold on town!penguin but I think it’s worth looking into who the top wagon was when murder tried to wagon penguin to see whether it could have been scum!murder trying to divert wagon away from a scumbuddy. Need to sleep so I’ll do that tomorrow after work hopefully.

@skitter what implications do you think the stalled gamestate has?

- Daenerys

MURDERCAT himself was the leading wagon.

I also still have serious reservations about dumb&dumber but am trying to compile like actually coherent sentences about it before I blow up the thread again. But from where I’m standing, they haven’t done anything particularly town-indicative. Can I get people’s thoughts on them please?

- Daenerys

They seem decent enough to me, leaning toward town.

also i realize i may be mis-interpreting 889. who is dead null: murdercat or penguin?

Penguin. It feels like the active lurking and filler posting is basically a playstyle thing for him and he hasn't really scumtold or towntold, he's just there. He could be scum but I don't think the stuff murdercat is pointing at says a lot either way and I have my own issues with murder's posting.

[catboi]

i might be new but that doesnt mean you should say "newbie did this" for every move i make

it's like saying the "new guy" when you have a new person at school. it's a little patronising

I think this is a town post

Uh its just not a post scum makes?

~ skitter

nervous isn't the right word but this seems like you're getting annoyed at their questioning of you in a defensive way

Eh it was more that i dont have words to elborate than being defensive i would say

I already have townpings on 4 slots!

~ skitter

Also probably town

Slug’s post seems a bit glitzy in a way scum wouldn’t want
For skitter I just relate to that post on a personal level

Ehh, I awareded this points for effort on first glance but the reasoning doesn't really make sense?

MURDERCAT your play feels kinda flat rn
what's up?

okay
I'm just seeing that your current commentary seems devoted to optimal mechplay, which isn't that bad until factoring in that flatness

Also can someone come up with a good reason for MCat being scum or is this just because he’s not a TR yet
I feel like most games MCat gets pressed early as town

This gets a thonk.

[catboi]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

let's try this out.

[catboi]

I liked gamma bothering to try to meta-dive yyotta, but he voted her for having a prepared opening and hasn't shifted it since, and that opening was clearly a joke and extremely NAI, it just feels lazy at this point

dumb & dumber read is basically gut at this point (sorry!), just going on an ISO skim and saying hmm, this looks all right. I think they had a few posts I liked I could dig up if really necessary but for now I'm like, eh, I'll work with them because they haven't done anything I dislike

MURDERCAT's more complicated, I'll need a moment to put into words the issues I had with his posting.

[catboi]

This is an attempt to explain what I haven't liked about MURDERCAT:

Calling out PP for active lurking/"responding to safe stuff only" (225/229) feels like a cheap attack.

Murder what do you think of GC atp? I lean town on penguin for not trying to look town

Yeah I guess this is true. I wanted to see the GC reaction to that vote and to try to get PP to do stuff but then he just didn't lol. So I guess this vote is useless.
UNVOTE:

I think the pressure on GC is useful, it's content at least.

VOTE: YyottaCat

I'm going to vote here instead though because NM.

This is a pretty weak post, he says pressure on GC is "useful" but puts an empty vote elsewhere because of N_M, doesn't really contribute much in the way of meaningful pressure on either of them

The case on yyotta in 579 feels weak, he's taking a lot of stuff that feels like noob tells and attributing scumminess to it...but at the same time, I feel like if he's scum and he felt yyotta was flipbait he could push, he'd be going after her harder, and that's where my potential s/s theory came in.

Isn't skitter really good at scum? Like she is surface level townie sure but I am worried about that.

This feels like baselessly putting suspicion on someone, doesn't actually respond to anything they've said, just discredits townreads on someone because of a reputation.

Don't really like the excuse making in 716, that coupled with a lot of his posts being empty one-liners. Reaction to yyotta in 724 is an odd one, just "uhhh" at the scumread he's voting making a vote he presumably finds scummy? It's a very tepid response. Readslist in 734 feels especially flat, the reasoning feels like scum explaining things rather than town reasoning, especially don't like him only concludig with "we need more pressure here" about yyotta.

I don't like the unvote in 816 either, his explanation in 868 is just that it doesn't make sense that yyotta would be defending him as scum by asking why people were voting him, but I think he's smart enough to know scum aren't going to hop on every wagon and asking that single question isn't really a strong defense or a towntell, it looks more like him making an excuse to get off yyotta.

858 especially just feels like a post scum makes, the "trust me guys I'll start REALLY playing and be useful soon" that scum who's gotten off to a slow start uses to try to buy time.

[catboi]

I wrote that up without seeing dragons's comments on murder ftr. I didn't really highlight it there but in general his ISO feels like it has, well, a lot of the filler he accuses PP of, and he doesn't really seem to be pursuing his scumreads with any kind of vigor which I think is part of why he feels "flat", as others have said

[catboi]

Should also note that while I think salsabil was given too much credit for a single incorrect article in a post, her posting since catching up seems towny enough.

[catboi]

Will catch up later, but I can finally say this.
I was in this game where town got banned for game throwing: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85633

It was heated and took literally all of my energy. I though it would end before this game started, but it turns out scum didn't know I was their traitor and they kept trying to elim me.
I am looking forward to mentally committing to this game.

@catboi: do you not think the other game could have caused that lack of vigor?

-Dumbass

Ehhh, maybe different priorities led to different energy levels, but I don't think it's enough to override my suspicion of his posting so far.

[catboi]

I'm town

VOTE: Murder Cat

Why is it that when you say that it makes me doubt you the most?

[catboi]

@Infinity

Why wagon NM?

Infinity's attempt to push wagon on NM seems strange to me.

Why's it seems strange to you?

Y'all are not disappointed in me? Did you already have low expectations? Lol

It feels more like a solid belief from you, gamma coming in with a weak driveby vote and a soft defense of murdercat is much weaker when that's the only content he's had since his replace in

[catboi]

Whose replace-in, might I ask?

my replace in, w/e

[catboi]

Is gamma jestering?

[catboi]

I believe you, so I'll keep my vote on you.

[catboi]

If you believe me about murdercat being a miselim why do you think I’m scum?

The manner in which you are expressing the read, and the confidence with which you are asserting it, looks like how scum who are aware of someone's alignment talks - in particular you mostly don't address the actual accusations against him, just say "he often gets wagoned as town" and say his play this game doesn't differ from another game, you go big on the assertion he is town rather than actually addressing the arguments made against him. Scum can get self-important about how their "read" of a townie is correct and emphasize how they are right, rather than whether they actually have good reason to hav that read. And to me, that looks exactly like what you are doing here.

singling out NM's vote based on timing is particularly arbitrary, it's like you haven't bothered to actually look through the people voting/scumreading murder and are just picking someone based on wagon positioning. It doesn't strike me as someone who particularly cares about reading murdercat or the votes on him.

[catboi]

1. presupposes murderkitty town
   
2. correlates to an unrelated game with
   1. a different playerlist
      
   2. a different design
      
   3. a different size
      
   4. different wagons and voting structure
3. nm isn't sircakez

like using a wagon from a different completed game as justification to vote a player in a different game is...

bad

PP beating me to the punch here.

galaxy brain theory - murdercat is bomb and gamma is goon trying to divert the wagon away? that would fit with gamma seeming “jester-y”, whoever said that.

- Daenerys

That was what I was thinking might be happening a little while ago, but it starts to feel almost too unsubtle at this point for that to be the case - the manner of the defense is starting to feel like a TMI townread.

[catboi]

what do you think about catboi saying it's too obvious and that Gamma/Infinity are actually TMIing town!murder?

- Daenerys

To be fair I didn't think infinity looked bad off it necessarily because his belief in his vote seems plausible, where gamma's reasoning for murder-town is poor and his assessment of the thread is lazy.

What's a "more subtle" way of dismantling the wagon on their buddy?

Perhaps a subtler way of going about it would be to accuse someone of TMI'ing them... :thonk:

-Dumbass

haaa, good one, I'll have to keep that in mind for the next time I'm scum~


Meh. murdercat promised to do things and is about to hit prod range, and penguin looks more town recently which makes murder look worse. I guess I'm in favor of getting a flip and ending the day at this point.

[catboi]

What leads you to that conclusion?

[catboi]

What leads you to that conclusion?

I'm continuously getting this feeling that

Daenerys and Dragons

vs

Dumb and Dumber

is not TvT

yeah why is that?

- Daenerys

Mostly gut, don't go through all of your ISOs yet, find hard to read actually.

I don't really feel gut is strong enough to say 2 people arguing aren't both town. That feels a very arbitrary claim to make. Town argue with each other all the time and in this case, right now, it doesn't feel to me like either of them is arguing in a scummy way.


I don't hate 1183, something about the way gamma explains his thought processes there seems believable. I do not like 1187, though.

[catboi]

VOTE: MURDERCATTO

I agree with Dumbass. previous pages have me less interested in voting gamma, let's flip murder.

[catboi]

timing of yyotta's voe on gamma is very bizarre.

[catboi]

Salsabil, have you done these type of detailed ISO reads in a game before?

[catboi]

if you can't talk about it, don't link it, thanks

[catboi]

btw i don't think the D&D hydra exchange, which is eating up of pages of energy, is helpful.

if y'all are trying to make a case on the other hydra, please get to it. otherwise can we please move on?

This was exactly the post I was going to make, especially given the time constraints we are under.




I do not like murdercat's recent posting and am still okay with voting him.

[catboi]

VOTE: murdercat
I'd prefer to let him town up if he's town but he's not really trying atp, plus I have unresolved concerns of my own from early on.

You can just say it's self-preservation you know

[catboi]

Let's wait for the flip.

[catboi]

VOTE: Infinity 324

[catboi]

Willing to say the hydras are town, salsabil is prob town, wish I had a 4th name I was comfortable with...I think GC is okay, has some interactions with murdercat that look non-partner-y but wouldn't bet the game on that read, necessarily.

[catboi]

Who's scum, Infinity?

[catboi]

Idk

ಠ_ಠ

[catboi]

VOTE: Infinity 324

curious why infinity over Mena, who I think are the two initial candidates for today's elim (but not locked in to just these two for today)

I disliked his progression on murder after a reread.

Idk my inclination is that scum hardbussed for cred to get into panic room, but that’s purely based on VCs and knowing my own alignment

The advancement of the murdercat wagon was so halting that I strongly doubt that, and the only real candidate for a hardbus there is dumb and dumber, who I find independently towny anyway.

[catboi]

FWIW, I still think murdercat's push on yyotta is potentially partner-y but points away from her being the bomb and so would vote elsewhere today.

(also, that was the most confident I've felt about a non-mechanical redflip in a while, feels good (*•̀ᴗ•́*)و ̑̑ )

[catboi]

FWIW, I still think murdercat's push on yyotta is potentially partner-y but points away from her being the bomb and so would vote elsewhere today.

can you explain this? I just ISO'd MC and I don't think his push looks partner-y, I think it looks like a safe park vote

I thought the push was pretty halfhearted and he backed down rather easily in a way that made it seem like he didn't really want it to go through. However, looking back at him, all his pushes were fairly halfhearted so I don't know how much weight that holds. I wouldn't say it's clearing but not my first choice for a vote.

[catboi]

Menalque: just calm down and read the game.We're not going to quick-elim you, just read up and give your take on things, constantly arguing and spamming the thread without context isn't going to help.

I'm not going to entertain paranoia about Dumb and Dumber right now because Auro was the one who convinced me to move off your slot and onto murdercat (that, and gamma looking a bit like inflamed town in his argument with d&d)

[catboi]

Scum wouldn't want bomb to get eliminated because that would mean an early loss to them. How is his vote partner-y though? “Halfhearted” doesn't explain it very much.

My thinking was he didn't really seem to push you in a manner that made it seem like he wanted you eliminated, you basically ignored him voting you then defended him when people started voting him, and he backed down for a bad reason, it felt like if you were town he saw as eliminatable he would have been more aggressive in his attack. But that's just a theory.

Is that a strong enough case to vote you over? probably not, I prefer my infinity vote.

[catboi]

Yeah, this game died hardcore, I was expecting more. In lieu of that, her is why I am voting infiity:

Murder what do you think of GC atp? I lean town on penguin for not trying to look town

I'm going to vote here instead though because NM.

?

meanwhile

VOTE: Gamma

Bad vote

MURDERCAT your play feels kinda flat rn
what's up?

Murder's play always feels flat until he hits the towny button. That said, I'm leaning town on him atm.

Murder what are you seeing with yyotta?

@whoever is interested: skitter is within top 3 players onsite with ability to read me. probably top 1 if not close to it. she has crazy accuracy on me. therefore I will consider scumreading me a scumclaim, from her specifically.

This is good context actually, thanks. I was confused about why everyone was accepting skitter's read on you when like, skitter might not be town?

I mean, she's likely forced to read lilith correctly anyway if scum, because it looks sus if she misreads her. Them being scum together is unlikely by stats, and I get the sense that lilith is relatively easy to read in general. Which is why it's odd that I seem to disagree with skitter on lilith's alignment atm. Like, being prickly/antagonistic about an SR on you and channeling that energy into aggressively questioning the person who SRs you is strongly indicative of towny OMGUS imo.

I don't have a read on yyotta atm

I don't actually know murder's scumgame, I don't really think this is it though

Agree that GC's shadow read feels a bit more genuine than before, still leaning towards him being scum

I'm townreading both hydras, Dumb & Dumber to a lesser extent because auro is confusing and skitter is good at scum.

I've looked over GC's more recent posts and fitting them into a scum mindset keeps feeling like a stretch. Don't really know who scum is outside of that.

Murdercat show us your towny soul

Murder can you explain your read on the shadow/catboi slot?

This is the part where I really feel like murder is town but I can't explain it so I'm just gonna keep saying it hoping that does something

Early on, infinity defends murder as a townlean but only has a couple weak interactions with him.

@lilith Not much has changed since I TRed skitter early, we mindmelded on GC a bit. It's not really a read I'm interested in re-evaluating until later on

Everyone is towny, let's wagon NM

VOTE: nm

Because uh

I have way too many townreads and I don't like the murdercat wagon and he's not a townread for obvious reasons

Lilith can you try to explain what's been actively scummy about murder's content as opposed to just underwhelming

I've seen flashes of a town!murder personality here and I normally soulread him as town when he's town so I'm also reluctant to elim him today

I am sorta mindmelding with gamma here because I don't want to elim murder but I also am not excited about anyone else, that's why I voted NM at least, yeah it's lazy but I want to trust my reads enough to say that me having a lot of TRs means the unreadable players are more likely scum

@infinity
catboi’s post sums up most of it I think, have you read and responded to this?

Actually just looked at your ISO and you don’t seem to have mentioned this post at all, which is interesting because this is probably the biggest scumcase on murder so far, and you seemingly hard townread this slot before catboi replaced in. Is there a reason you haven’t responded to catboi on murder or engaged with catboi at all?

- Daenerys

I read the post, it didn't really do anything for me. Most of it is like, murder is making lazy pushes and reasoning because he's kinda being lazy this game. If you're interested I can respond to it in more depth

@lilith The argument isn't "murder could be lazy town"

It's "laziness isn't scum-indicative, especially for murder"

I just don't think any of the points against murder actually make him more likely to be scum, and he's felt towny to me so far

Fair point about not searching for other scum, I've been pretty demotivated and should probably be re-evaluating my TRs. But also, when I have reasons to TR a lot of the playerlist, yeah maybe players like NM and yyota, who I don't have reasons to TR, are more likely scum

I haven't gotten townvibes from NM, I'm (very) not confident I'll be able to read NM later

PEdit: I don't see it happen often, and I don't see why murder would think that would happen in this gamestate?

When the push starts to move against murder, infinity tries to start a wagon on not_mafia instead while being dismissive of the arguments against murdercat.

Yeah I'm not arguing that murder is town for it

I was arguing against the fact that it's scummy for murder to not be here atm, I think it's NAI

Small bit of equivocation, saying he's not arguing murdercat is town while defending him.

I prefer voting murder to gamma

I have more solid reasons to TR gamma that I can go into tomorrow, it comes down to the fact that he doesn't care at all about how he's perceived

Murder I just got some townvibes, I could be wrong there ig

VOTE: murdercat

Sorry murder </3

E-1

Then, abruptly, switches to being willing to vote murdercat for seemingly little reason when the wagon on him builds up.

[catboi]

Honestly looking back at the end of day 1 makes the gamma-bomb/infinity-goon theory feel very plausible which might explain why infinity came into the day completely flat. I was going to say I like the infinity vote for strategic purposes because I had some slight uncertainty with regard to gamma, but I think I pretty much always vote menalque on an infinity goon flip.

[catboi]

I think the mod needs a prod

[catboi]

Infinity is really...uh...avoiding this game, huh.

[catboi]

I TR'ed gamma because he wasn't trying to look town and because the emotion in defending murder felt very genuine, some of the logic he used didn't make a lot of sense but that isn't scummy. Scum!gamma has to have a bit more self-awareness there, and realize his defense isn't going to do much there, especially with no effective counterwagon.

Is that the extent of your reason for townreading gamma? because you claimed there were "more solid reasons" and this feels...not solid.

I have more solid reasons to TR gamma that I can go into tomorrow, it comes down to the fact that he doesn't care at all about how he's perceived

Murder I just got some townvibes, I could be wrong there ig

[catboi]

Someone set us up the bomb

we get signal.

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

Kind of want to memeflashwagon

[catboi]

I thought he was at E-1 but effectively scumclaimed so we could just move down the line to menalque anyway

[catboi]

loool I somehow missed the entire end of page 70, whoops

[catboi]

Either it's just gammaslot, or Infinity wanted us to think it was gammaslot, but there's no way we don't flip it, wish I'd gone for the fast win yesterday but o well~ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[catboi]

Tempted to just vote and see if I wake up to menaque being hammered but I'll give him a chance to post

[catboi]

k

VOTE: menalque

sorry you had to rep into this spot

[catboi]

Fwiw my top suspect is catboi lol

-Dumbass

Will "I wouldn't have bussed" work as a defense? >_>

Obviously not, but it's true. After the game I just got out of as scum, I really regretted voting my partner day 1 because I got trapped on hem and it bought me minimal cred. If you look at day 1, I was a critical vote in putting momentum on murdercat over gamma, if I had wanted to I could have kept on voting gamma and let the wagon build there instead, I think it was entirely possible, I'd have tried to rally my partners to vote town. I really think it's just as simple as neither murdercat or infinity wanting to vote gamma, and infinity shifting his read on murdercat only when gamma became the counterwagon to MC.

I also almost certainly don't kill PP and salsabil when you're a lot more likely to be wary of me as scum, even if PP was clearly town after the murdercat flip.

UNVOTE:

Kind of want to memeflashwagon

I thought he was at E-1 but effectively scumclaimed so we could just move down the line to menalque anyway

loool I somehow missed the entire end of page 70, whoops

These seem pretty weird for when he thought Infinity420 was at E-1

-Dumbass

I legitimately assumed infinity had given up as scum pushed to the brink (didn't see the hammer), and went, "okay, he's guaranteed scum, might as well go for the assumed partner here because they're probably bomb". I hadn't seen the hammer from n_m. Don't know why I'd bother with such a maneuver as scum.

[catboi]

weird if whoever is picked to be neighborized is eliminated, regardless of when it goes into effect. then there would be no recruiter?

Or if they're nightkilled. I guess then there are no more recruits? That seems more scumsided than I thought.

[catboi]

the neighborhood doesn’t matter anymore, we just need to find the bomb and kill them.

Well, strictly speaking, the original recruit is still conftown but there's 0 reason to talk about that out in the open

[catboi]

I’m slightly irritated by the lack of desire to sort my slot via actually sorting me vs my predecessor but equally I understand it I guess

I don't know what you're expecting, exactly? I gave you time yesterday, we wagoned infinity instead, today you just talk about how your reads probably aren't that useful, you're not really giving us anything to work with

And it's not like we can really ignore the preponderance of evidence from flipped scum that point toward your slot - it's not impossible we're being misled but I think it's more probable that scum just sort of faceplanted on day 1 this game and that's why we are where we are, I would literally never clear you at this point, that's just how it goes

[catboi]

Not mafia, we were ~95% confident on that

Not mafia, we were ~95% confident on that

Ic, not n1 recruit to clarify

yeah lol

VOTE: not_mafia

Reason?

he's my mason buddy

[catboi]

Gamma and murdercat had just won a game as scum where the team stuck together and defended each other, maybe they were hoping to repeat the same strategy here? I've no idea. Defending his teammate as the bomb just dug the scum into a hole that was impossible to get out of because it turned attention on him and then they had to scramble to save gamma. Kind of dirty for gamma to sub out there.

[catboi]

Thanks for hosting, in the future I would recommend having a backup mod for instances when you aren't around so nights don't have to get extended, other than that it was all good