Mini Theme 2198: Animals Upick 2 [Game Over]

[Xtoxm]

Votecount 1.11

mastina(4)

~ April Ludgate, Korina, Rathe, Noraabear

Korina(3)

~ Smoke and Mirrors, mastina, PenguinPower

TheFuzzylogic99(2)

~ Superb Subtlety, Whemestar

PenguinPower(2)

~ Battle Mage, Raya36

Battle Mage(1)

~ TheFuzzylogic99

Not Voting (1)

: Mad Hatters Tea Party

With 13 alive it takes 7 to FLIP.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2021-03-07 15:12:44)

[Mad Hatters Tea Party]

It is me personal opinion, that in the little time we have available to us we need to compromise and quickly.

I am willing to exile April, Tigger and Wheme. The reasons being "whom?", "By the heavens, stop bouncing!", and "janitor", respectively.

I do not see how a janitor can be a role that is town aligned.

[Superb Subtlety]

Voting for pressure in order to place is perfectly reasonable and loses that effect to some degree if you say that's what you're doing

You've also focused on the only vote for which my reasoning was unclear. That you've cherrypicked that in order to place me tells me all that I need to know

I don’t really have a read yet on TFL and I don’t think Mastina’s the best wagon but I have very strong reasons not to trust certain things you said about my role which I’m currently unable to elaborate on. That could be NAI but I don’t think it’s beyond your scum range to make bad setup spec reads. Wheme auto jumping to my mod confirmed role as scum is even worse. Only thing that doesn’t make sense to me about Mastina is that she’s townlocking two slots who are doubting my role. Also, in the one game I played with you where you were scum, you were extremely active but in all the games you were town, you were a lot more lurky, so tell me why I should trust you here despite your - what read to me as possible attempts to rolefish me - is that fair? Because you are trying to take charge of this game which wouldn’t be a concern for me at all, had you not done anything to make me super paranoid of you.

I really want to have a much more confident read on you but that’s hard when I’m super paranoing on you. So if you’re town here, please help me to see it?

Which things that I said about your role?

I want to reiterate that my questions on your role were NOT a push. However, I believe what you said about it. I think you're town now- I was null on you when I started asking you questions because while you're fairly easy to place there wasn't exactly a lot of content to go on, and as I have said you're easiest to place when someone has pushed you.

I don't think I've done any bad setup spec here, Nancy. The only conclusion I've reached from pure setup spec here is that I said there were probably a bunch of net null VT-esque roles in the game, and I said that before quite a few of the net null VT-esque roles claimed. That is verifiably good setup spec. Inaccurate mechanical stuff is definitely within my scumrange as I've actually cleared myself before as scum under some very specific circumstances, and I don't pretend I never make mistakes as town, so yes- it's explicitly NAI if taken in isolation, but I haven't even done that yet.

I did NOT make a push on you based on your role, and tried to explain that multiple times. The thing is, Nancy, you do have a tendency to make assumptions as you're reading, and you don't challenge them later. You often end up completely misreading a situation. While I did try to correct those assumptions for you, I think you also have a tendency to not listen to people when you disagree with them, or especially when you think they're scum. It does help to place your alignment, which is one of the main reasons I did end up pushing you (so that I could place you. I did not think you were scum.) But I want to clarify now while you're more inclined to read my posts that the mechanics regarding you was not, and was never a push.

Okay but what happens if you vote someone else

I know you're saying you can't but if you were to actually type out a post where you vote someone else and post it then what happens

When I posted this, I was not saying you were lying. I wanted to know what happens if you were to vote someone else.

There's a key mechanical difference here that I would like to establish that is going way over your head

For what it's worth, I haven't once said you're scum or that anything relating to this is scum indicative. This is just mechanics, not a push

I explained this afterwards. But you still continued to believe that I was pushing you on mechanics, so I thought I might as well actually push you on something to see how you react. But you completely missed that, because the only important detail that you could see at the time was that I was pushing you.

The 'expected' implementation of a leashed vote is that the mod sets your vote to the leash target and no longer acknowledges when you try to change it. This is why myself and Wheme both initially asked for you to change your vote to prove it. It's not really a big deal that Krazy has opted for a different implementation which cannot confirm the leash, but I did want to confirm that this was indeed the case. When I was asking about your role there was a reasonable chance from my perspective that you had misunderstood it, so I wanted to clear that up.



Regarding activity, could you tell me which scumgame it was in which I was active? If it was the one where I was a traitor I would note I only managed to keep that up for 1 dayphase. My activity is strongly linked to my motivation to play in a given game, which usually is pretty low if I am scum. Activity is AI for me, but it's not an absolute. I have also started to cut down that motivation in the earlygame in general because my classic style of play tends to lead to my NK on N1. If you want any further analysis then Mastina is the expert on my meta.

[Superb Subtlety]

It is me personal opinion, that in the little time we have available to us we need to compromise and quickly.

I am willing to exile April, Tigger and Wheme. The reasons being "whom?", "By the heavens, stop bouncing!", and "janitor", respectively.

I do not see how a janitor can be a role that is town aligned.

Welcome to the theme queue

Off the top of my head;
Janitor vig
A rolecop that steals role PMs so they don't flip when they die at any later point in the game
A role that janitors itself on flip
A doctor-janitor could be pretty interesting due to the implications of a strongman kill
Any other basic combination of roles where the janitor is neg utility vs a strong town utility- eg Janitor-Watcher
A percentage based role (boooo those suck)
Just a straight up town janitor to exist as the equivalent of a miller to a rolecop
Something that I can't immediately conceive of because I'm thinking in my frame of mind rather than Krazy's

There are many possibilities.

[Superb Subtlety]

Votecount 1.11

mastina(4)

~ April Ludgate, Korina, Rathe, Noraabear

Korina(3)

~ Smoke and Mirrors, mastina, PenguinPower

Battle Mage(2)

~ TheFuzzylogic99

TheFuzzylogic99(2)

~ Superb Subtlety, Whemestar

PenguinPower(2)

~ Battle Mage, Raya36

Not Voting (1)

: Mad Hatters Tea Party

With 13 alive it takes 7 to FLIP.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2021-03-07 15:12:44)

@mod: Based on previous votecounts I assume the TFL does not have a double vote, however please correct me if this votecount is accurate.

~Fixed

[Mad Hatters Tea Party]

One thinks that the King should perhaps flavour claim, in addition to their role claim; due to the time constraints, however, this is unlikely to happen.

VOTE: TheFuzzyLogic99 then, as the only viable compromise to me presently.

[Superb Subtlety]

How have you missed his soft

[Superb Subtlety]

Who's the king of the jungle

[PenguinPower]

Riiiiight - because wheme is obviously a compulsive janitor and korina is a compulsive coroner and there exists no blocking roles in mafia at all.

Meanwhile - actual investigative and protective roles exist, but let’s push through a wagon on a potential beneficial role who likely won’t be able to claim with the time remaining.

Sound plan.

I’m no compuslive sorry for enough been drink I all night long I’m so sorry

It was sarcasm.

[PenguinPower]

VOTE: tfl

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Riiiiight - because wheme is obviously a compulsive janitor and korina is a compulsive coroner and there exists no blocking roles in mafia at all.

Meanwhile - actual investigative and protective roles exist, but let’s push through a wagon on a potential beneficial role who likely won’t be able to claim with the time remaining.

Sound plan.

I’m no compuslive sorry for enough been drink I all night long I’m so sorry

Korina is compulsive? That’s almost certainly a town modifier but a non-compulsive janitor clearly put into the setup to balance a coroner role, makes me think this could be a scum role. Him clearly shading a literally mod-confirmed role, isn’t helping my read on him any.

[Superb Subtlety]

Korina is not compulsive; you have misread the post

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I'm going to just hardclaim then:
I'm a coroner. What purpose is there for a scum coroner?

Coroner is a role that hard-counters a janitor, so it'd make sense in this game for there to be a role that gives my role some use.

then fucking rolecop me, why do I care?

And also, you can see my reason to believe why there's a scum janitor, because this is supposed to be a VT-less game. Literally, a tracker can also prove my role, because I can only visit dead players.

Whoever we elim today, is who I visit tonight to see their role PM, because that's the only action I can take.

pedit:

then fucking rolecop me, why do I care?

or track me tonight, and see I visit a dead player. Regardless, it proves my role.

I couldn’t find anything wrt compulsive but I can’t see why scum has a coroner.

[Superb Subtlety]

It is possible that scum has a coroner, just as it possible that town has a janitor. This is the theme queue

I townread Korina for his mindset around his claim and the internal consistency of it all
I townread Wheme for his play. His claim is potentially town indicative but we can't give it extra credit when it follows a godfather claim getting locktowned by the more vocal people in the game because scum could potentially want in on that. But Wheme is town on play

[Mad Hatters Tea Party]

How have you missed his soft

Who's the king of the jungle

The Lion is the King of the Jungle, however, a lion does not live in the jungle, nor do they have Kings.

A Janitor would imply a creature such as a Vulture, or certain shrimps

[Superb Subtlety]

The path from animal to role PM is not as straightforward as you might think

Koalas are not known for hosting game shows, for example

[PenguinPower]

sigh

No one has claimed compulsive. It was sarcasm directed at Raya in reply to her logic.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

Spoiler:

Voting for pressure in order to place is perfectly reasonable and loses that effect to some degree if you say that's what you're doing

You've also focused on the only vote for which my reasoning was unclear. That you've cherrypicked that in order to place me tells me all that I need to know

I don’t really have a read yet on TFL and I don’t think Mastina’s the best wagon but I have very strong reasons not to trust certain things you said about my role which I’m currently unable to elaborate on. That could be NAI but I don’t think it’s beyond your scum range to make bad setup spec reads. Wheme auto jumping to my mod confirmed role as scum is even worse. Only thing that doesn’t make sense to me about Mastina is that she’s townlocking two slots who are doubting my role. Also, in the one game I played with you where you were scum, you were extremely active but in all the games you were town, you were a lot more lurky, so tell me why I should trust you here despite your - what read to me as possible attempts to rolefish me - is that fair? Because you are trying to take charge of this game which wouldn’t be a concern for me at all, had you not done anything to make me super paranoid of you.

I really want to have a much more confident read on you but that’s hard when I’m super paranoing on you. So if you’re town here, please help me to see it?

Which things that I said about your role?

I want to reiterate that my questions on your role were NOT a push. However, I believe what you said about it. I think you're town now- I was null on you when I started asking you questions because while you're fairly easy to place there wasn't exactly a lot of content to go on, and as I have said you're easiest to place when someone has pushed you.

I don't think I've done any bad setup spec here, Nancy. The only conclusion I've reached from pure setup spec here is that I said there were probably a bunch of net null VT-esque roles in the game, and I said that before quite a few of the net null VT-esque roles claimed. That is verifiably good setup spec. Inaccurate mechanical stuff is definitely within my scumrange as I've actually cleared myself before as scum under some very specific circumstances, and I don't pretend I never make mistakes as town, so yes- it's explicitly NAI if taken in isolation, but I haven't even done that yet.

I did NOT make a push on you based on your role, and tried to explain that multiple times. The thing is, Nancy, you do have a tendency to make assumptions as you're reading, and you don't challenge them later. You often end up completely misreading a situation. While I did try to correct those assumptions for you, I think you also have a tendency to not listen to people when you disagree with them, or especially when you think they're scum. It does help to place your alignment, which is one of the main reasons I did end up pushing you (so that I could place you. I did not think you were scum.) But I want to clarify now while you're more inclined to read my posts that the mechanics regarding you was not, and was never a push.

Okay but what happens if you vote someone else

I know you're saying you can't but if you were to actually type out a post where you vote someone else and post it then what happens

When I posted this, I was not saying you were lying. I wanted to know what happens if you were to vote someone else.

There's a key mechanical difference here that I would like to establish that is going way over your head

For what it's worth, I haven't once said you're scum or that anything relating to this is scum indicative. This is just mechanics, not a push

I explained this afterwards. But you still continued to believe that I was pushing you on mechanics, so I thought I might as well actually push you on something to see how you react. But you completely missed that, because the only important detail that you could see at the time was that I was pushing you.

The 'expected' implementation of a leashed vote is that the mod sets your vote to the leash target and no longer acknowledges when you try to change it. This is why myself and Wheme both initially asked for you to change your vote to prove it. It's not really a big deal that Krazy has opted for a different implementation which cannot confirm the leash, but I did want to confirm that this was indeed the case. When I was asking about your role there was a reasonable chance from my perspective that you had misunderstood it, so I wanted to clear that up.

Regarding activity, could you tell me which scumgame it was in which I was active? If it was the one where I was a traitor I would note I only managed to keep that up for 1 dayphase. My activity is strongly linked to my motivation to play in a given game, which usually is pretty low if I am scum. Activity is AI for me, but it's not an absolute. I have also started to cut down that motivation in the earlygame in general because my classic style of play tends to lead to my NK on N1. If you want any further analysis then Mastina is the expert on my meta.

Just to clarify I didn’t mean to suggest that you were necessarily doing bad setup spec in THIS game, only that doing so wouldn’t be out of your scumrange. In Vengeful Ghosts you were extremely active but a lot less so in Doubles and Boon uPick but in Pokemon Battles, you kind’ve picked up near the end of D2.

I think I might possibly have misinterpreted your you wanting me to test my vote as a push but someone - can’t recall whom atm? - did in fact shade my role by suggesting that Pengun’s prize wasn’t what I claimed, so if that was you, that’s where I got the rolefish thing from.

However, now that you are claiming it was a reaction test, I feel better about you. since reaction tests tend to come more from town. However if you recall, Auro did that as scum in Boon uPick.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

One thinks that the King should perhaps flavour claim, in addition to their role claim; due to the time constraints, however, this is unlikely to happen.

VOTE: TheFuzzyLogic99 then, as the only viable compromise to me presently.

Why do you think flavour is useful in this setup?

[Mad Hatters Tea Party]

The path from animal to role PM is not as straightforward as you might think

Koalas are not known for hosting game shows, for example

I am aware, Scar from the Lion King is a likely connection here.

PEDIT: My animal of choice has directly attributed to my abilities. You will see.

[Smoke and Mirrors]

It is possible that scum has a coroner, just as it possible that town has a janitor. This is the theme queue

I townread Korina for his mindset around his claim and the internal consistency of it all
I townread Wheme for his play. His claim is potentially town indicative but we can't give it extra credit when it follows a godfather claim getting locktowned by the more vocal people in the game because scum could potentially want in on that. But Wheme is town on play

What use would a coroner be to scum and do you think it makes sense that coroner and janitor would be the same alignment?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

The path from animal to role PM is not as straightforward as you might think

Koalas are not known for hosting game shows, for example

Perhaps in Oz?

[Smoke and Mirrors]

sigh

No one has claimed compulsive. It was sarcasm directed at Raya in reply to her logic.

Yeah I just read #1333.

[Superb Subtlety]

I think I did say I didn't think that was the real prize, actually, which was my kneejerk reaction

If it was indeed a lie that would probably be town indicative though

I later came to the conclusion you probably wouldn't be able to convincingly lie on this as either alignment

[TheFuzzylogic99]

How am I anywhere close to being scum here. ...... I have been consistently scum hunting all game. If you want to kill me today then fine but its a bad move for town.

Subtle argument for me being scum seems to be that I am misreading them and not paying attention. However these things are always indictive of scum as town can be lazy as well. I have given reasons for my votes andthen explain why. Subtle has not done that at all. They had tunneled Korina for atleast a third of the game with little reason other then they believe she is lying about her role but gave little reason why they believe this, Btw they have given no rationale on why they think my words are intentional and not just me be being lazy or stubborn. The also pushed an easy target in Rathe .

Subtle seems to think they are leading the game but I have little evidence for that. Almost all their action has been them following other players. I believe that either they think they are leading or maybe are trying to be
a leader. They have been stubborn all game and do not seem to listen to other people argument. See her case aginst Korina. I dont know if this is her being town or overagressive scum/ Tis is why I am not going to vote them.