Titus v Nancy Drew (Game Over)

[Pyro]

Batsunami
Fey
Clidd
Morty and Rick
Red Eye Knights
Toogeloo
ItalianoVD
Saudade
Gamma Emerald
Starcrossed

SaraharaS
Dunnstral
Sherlock and Watson

5uffering

War and Peace

5uffering - My read on him depends a lot on his main which is a little frustrating
Starcrossed - Kanna is towny and Pooky is scummy
Dunnstral - Takes are fine, but the shift in tone is bothering me. I'm used to him being harsher as town

[Pink Ball]

Why Pyro can't be scum:
-Would have had to hard bus War and Peace and caused them to be launched
-Would have had to bus Sarah
-Had Sherlock suggest vanilla cop be locked to checking Pyro
-Claimed VT with a known vanilla cop around, and not nightkill that vanilla cop for several nights

Why Dunny can't be scum:
-???

We don't know what the bus driver did on N2, and my theory is that, if you're scum, you bus drove yourself with Auro

[Pyro]

Pink Ball, you have to jump over all these hurdles to think I'm scum. Why didn't I just claim any old PR while knowing there was a vanilla cop around as the bus driver? Why did I push War and Peace out when Nancy was against it and was going for Toogeloo that day? Why did Sherlock ask me to be vanilla copped?

I understand you have a gut or soulread, but please look at all of the things you have to make explanations for to consider me scum, and apply occam's razor with deadly force.

On the other hand, we have Dunny, who I have very clearly outlined is scum and why with my case. I truly believe all of those reasons are really good and I'm very confident on him being the final scum.

[Pyro]

A comprehensive guide on why Dunnstral is scum

SMITHING WITH GUNS

I'm an odd-night doctor

Night 1 was skipped

Night 3 I was on Starcrossed

I didn't get any kind of notification that I was redirected

Because of my role I thought that Kidamn's claim was very believable (it was claimed before the rolecop could do anything, too)

I argued against mafia having a doctor, but my own role and the vanilla cop claim made me think the gunsmith claim was more believable as well

Dunny claims odd-night doc in this post, stating that his own role and the vanilla cop claims made the gunsmith claim

more

believable.

I immediately question him on this - a gunsmith is a strong role, and to believe an odd night doc + even night rolestopper exist to create a follow the cop scenario to protect the gunsmith is very dubious. It's so much town power if you account for those 3 roles + the vanilla cop + the vig + the night skip + 2 or 3 masons. It's absolutely ridiculous from a balance standpoint. Remember, people were doubting War and Peace's claim because they thought a gunsmith + just the even night rolestopper may have been too dangerous of a combo, and Dunny has this information about his own role, and it makes him believe the gunsmith

more

, and not less.

There's a very simple explanation for why Dunny didn't think of how this was far, far too much power for town to have - and it's because he's scum with War and Peace.

I immediately question him on this, doubting how he could believe what he did:

you thought both protectives with an ungated gunsmith made the gunsmith claim more believable?
you didn't think that was too much power?
also what do you mean the vanilla cop claim made you think the gunsmith was more believable as well?

Vanilla cop carries a gun. i.e. false guilty
Doctor is a role that never has a gun, which is why I thought gunsmith felt believeable (even though I'm town and don't have a gun, it made sense to me that I'd be made to look suspicious for being doctor with a gs in the game)

I argued against mafia having a doctor, but my own role and the vanilla cop claim made me think the gunsmith claim was more believable as well

this makes no sense to me Dunny
you really need to explain why you thought two protectives that can cover all nights made you think the gunsmith was MORE believable and not less

Roleblockers, strongmans. And especially the day vig flipped. I think that was after the claim though, but I was thinking about that

He responds by saying scum could have a roleblocker/strongman. Scum

could

have these things, but even with them, town have far too much power at their disposal. I eventually pushed out War and Peace using this same logic. I'm very confident that town!Dunny does not see all this power and think it makes sense because scum

could

have certain roles, and because a gunsmith can get a false guilty on a vanilla cop, and a false inno on a doc, and ignore the glaring reasoning about how it creates a follow the cop scenario and how it's far too much power.

WAR BUT ULTIMATELY PEACE

This is all before any gunsmith claims:

97 - Dunny votes for WP
379 - WP have 3 votes and Dunny goes to vanity vote Sherlock instead (this is safe because they aren't a realistic wagon by any means right now)
404 - VC
486 - WP have received 2 more votes and are now at 4 with no real counter, Dunny moves back to vote them
535 - VC
657 - VC
770 - Dunny unvotes WP
1961 - WP are his SECOND TOP scumread

I'm not even going to try and assign an exact scum motivation behind this behaviour, but one thing is for sure, it's not natural and normal. Dunny is constantly shifting on and off the War and Peace wagon, and every single one of the votes are naked without any reasoning attached. This is scum!Dunny positioning himself on/off the wagon based on whether he wants to bus, and unvoting when he thinks they have a chance of survival. The thing that makes absolutely no sense with this uncertain behavior, however, is the fact that War and Peace have been a

solid

scumread for Dunny, as evidence by his readlist in the final post. This is scum behaving around a partner getting wagoned.

THE SHIP SAILS

During day 3, we're finally making this wagon on War and Peace go through. I've been pushing for them all game and we're finally making it happen. Where is Dunny while this happens?
4880 5595 - Dunny clearly still thinks War and Peace are scummy during this time, and has had that opinion for most of the game, but his actions simply do not match his words, and he remains stubbornly voting Toogeloo for the entire phase. This by itself isn't sooo bad, he may just be very confident Toogeloo is scum, however, what is bad is the fact he does not comment on any of the arguments made on War and Peace being scum even

once

.

No mention of how he still thinks their claim makes them town because of him being a doc, no mention that he thinks they might be scum because of this or that... nothing. It's classical scum behaviour around a partner.

SORROWS OF SARAH

4106 - Dunny townreads Sarah
4364 - Dunny townreads Sarah
6177 - Dunny votes for Sarah when she's essentially decided to be the launch

Once again, there's no progression from Dunny townreading Sarah to eventually voting for her. He claims later that he liked the cases put against her in 6303, but again, the fact he doesn't care to comment on the cases

while

they're being made, whether with agreement or disagreement, is incredibly scum-indicative. He's seeing whether the cases against her will stick or not and staying out of it completely. Also, it's funny that the reason we thought Sarah was scum (bad progression on War and Peace - from townreading them to randomly having them in PoE) is the exact same thing Dunny is doing to Sarah here. Pretty good scumtell, huh?

THE WAR THAT KEEPS ON GIVING

VOTE: Dunnstral
War and Peace's push onto him is really weird if he's town and does them no favours because it was an unpopular push
BUT if he's scum then maybe the logic they were using makes sense to them and they thought it'd make them look towny because they're technically correct
also they get some distancing in

War and Peace's push onto Dunny in 5519 really is strange if Dunny is town. Dunny at that point is close to UTR, and a very unpopular push for scum to make. Does scum!War really opt to push a townie like that who will only make them look worse? Absolutely not. Does scum!War opt to push a

partner

which they can distance from and that they actually believe the reasoning for? Absolutely.

SOMETHING SMELLS FISHY

1008 1092 6300

There were more instances of this but every time Dunny posted something like this, it just felt off and gave me pocketing vibes. I've felt that way towards Dunny all game - something about his tone is off and different from his play in Pooky v Flava. In that game, he was visibly irritated and almost antagonistic, getting annoyed at Noraa, as well as pichu and Ydrasse for their silly antics. There has been none of that this game, and his tone is night and day.

RETURN OF THE FELLOWSHIP

That concludes things. I want to thank my keyboard for allowing me this amazing opportunity, and I want to thank Dunny for being a good deepwolf for giving us this challenge at the end. Games aren't always fun being townstomps, so I appreciate the work you've put in, my friend.

[Titus]

Blood for the Blood gods!

Note: God, I didn't mean this literally man. My cycle is really beating me.

[Pink Ball]

Pink Ball, you have to jump over all these hurdles to think I'm scum. Why didn't I just claim any old PR while knowing there was a vanilla cop around as the bus driver? Why did I push War and Peace out when Nancy was against it and was going for Toogeloo that day? Why did Sherlock ask me to be vanilla copped?

I understand you have a gut or soulread, but please look at all of the things you have to make explanations for to consider me scum, and apply occam's razor with deadly force.

On the other hand, we have Dunny, who I have very clearly outlined is scum and why with my case. I truly believe all of those reasons are really good and I'm very confident on him being the final scum.

I don't think your case is "clearly outlining Dunn as scum", and I'm not jumping over any hurdles to scumread you. My job is to vote one of you two and I have more reasons two townread both of you rather than scumread you, so I need REALLY good reasoning behind a scumread to decide which one of you is the last scum, and that good reasoning will only come from me.

[Pink Ball]

If I apply Occam's Razor on you, I'll apply it on Dunn too, and your case 9n him is full of assumptions that have simpler explanations.

Give me a case with Dunn's agenda. If you can't do that, then I'll do it. And with your agenda too.

[Pyro]

I gave Dunny's agenda...

For example:
He was townreading Sarah and wanted to bloc with her. When she was being pushed, he stayed out of it to see where people would land, and then only decided to bus her with no prior progression after it was clear she was going down. The agenda is that he changed his townread to a scumread when she was obviously going to die, and did not try and argue with people when she was being scumread because it would make him look aligned with her.

I could do this with all of the points, but I thought they were implied in all of my arguments.

I'm exhausted right now, played too much mafia today, so I'm checking out.

[Pyro]

@Nancy, @Morning, and @clidd:

Please let me know your thoughts. After making that case, I feel better about Dunny being scum than I've felt about any other scumread I've had this game.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Anyway, let me know when you wanna see it. I'm not presenting to an empty table smh

Your case is still about Dunn and Morning was a joke or just the explanation of your case on Morning was a joke but are you still going to present a case about scum!Morning?

It's about Dunny, Morning is a bus driver at heart, but not in this game.

But seriously wtf was that even about? She’d have to be double stacked to be bus driver in this game.

Have you seen Morning drive a bus irl? She's completely insane with the drifts and wheelies she pulls off. It's hard to believe until you actually see it

If this is actually true, I’ll take my chances jaywalking.

[Nancy Drew 39]

@Nancy, @Morning, and @clidd:

Please let me know your thoughts. After making that case, I feel better about Dunny being scum than I've felt about any other scumread I've had this game.

I will review it some more but one thing struck me. As I said, I was literally scum with Ircher and Titus in my very first scumgame ever and while his scumgame has dramatically improved since then, he is far more likely to scum distance than rand. He used to make lists where he would have his buddies extremely low on his lists. In the game where we were buddies, he had his entire team as either “scum” or “scumleans”, so specifically coming from Ircher your argument wrt to his Dunn push could definitely fit with that.

My working theory is that scum didn’t want the bus driver outed, which is why Krazy pushed so hard to be RS’d and wanted to make sure M & R weren’t. I also think the Fey kill was really sus and I really don’t see how that benefits you at all. My theory is that scum badly wanted Clidd elimed > Kid because she was pushing him the hardest.

I think it had to be extremely obvious that Starcrossed had to be my 2nd mason because PB obviously couldn’t be because of Saudade. I pushed Clidd to claim and other slots PR claimed but if you were a mason, you obviously would never have been pushing Starcrossed that hard. So whether or not Titus believed that Starcrossed or I was vigg, Fey was by then clearly spewed as a one shot unlike Tweetie, who’s NK would actually have not been as suspicious, so ONLY reason to kill her first was to frame Clidd. By limming Kid first, ruined scum’s plan but Kanna has had an extremely hard tr on that slot the entire game. Scum obviously failed to take that into account. Me and Kanna are extremely alike in that way, we both fight hard to protect our trs.

[Morning Tweet]

nvm Fey was actually a shit kill for Pyro, i would be fairly surprised if he opted for the wifom rather than the logical choice of killing me and star first. Fey's protection would be strong even if it seemed like the obvious route for scum pyro to take

Sorry to ask this, just paranoia hitting: what's all the evidence we actually have about the existence of a bus driver? Just the list, no analysis

just to summarize all we know just cause:

Kid's rolestop was bypassed N2

Koba's invest was swapped to Toog from REK N3

My message to Sara failed N4, likely because sara was attacked and swapped with koba

[Morning Tweet]

if Pyro's scum here his scumgame has improved significantly from an already pretty good baseline

I don't think the scumcase on Dunn would have happened if he were scum, neither would have the irritation towards kanna and us for SRing at start of day

And I don't foresee it being pb or clidd

So I could go back and pretend to notice what it is that made dunn scummy, but i think he played quite well actually, even if some of the fault is on me for not reading much further into the bit that made me tr him

i suppose my question to Dunn would be is, what did you mean exactly by how your role made you suspect WnP less, i suppose. Being able to point backwards and demonstrate how your role made you change your play and reads is really good for giving credibility to the claim but i didnt really think much about *why* your role made you think that just so much as it did

[Nancy Drew 39]

nvm Fey was actually a shit kill for Pyro, i would be fairly surprised if he opted for the wifom rather than the logical choice of killing me and star first. Fey's protection would be strong even if it seemed like the obvious route for scum pyro to take

Sorry to ask this, just paranoia hitting: what's all the evidence we actually have about the existence of a bus driver? Just the list, no analysis

just to summarize all we know just cause:

Kid's rolestop was bypassed N2

Koba's invest was swapped to Toog from REK N3

My message to Sara failed N4, likely because sara was attacked and swapped with koba

And now we have Krazy agreeing to him being vanilla copped while PB is correct that it can’t be an actual clear because of bus drive, it is still very significant. Scum should have probably had Sarah hardbus the bus driver because then the mech clear would be rendered meaningless which is why scum obviously wanted Clidd whacked before Kid.

[Pyro]

That's cool, whether we kill Dunny by virtue of you guys townreading me, or scumreading him, it works either way!

And Morning, you really were spot on with that early assessment you had of me, where you made me realise something that was missing in my scumgame.

[Pyro]

Does anyone know how much confidence each individual head of Batsunami could fake on a read like this, or how much emotion they could fake regarding being angry for people not biting?

In theory this feels towny to me and I think they do err towards town but something right now is pinging me about this, I think it is how they’re strong arming everyone and then saying they won’t get flipped? Even if Battle Mage is town. It is a LOT of confidence and I’m unsure if either of these players are ever like this...

Haha I never have confidence on the first 2-3 days, except for on some of my townreads which are always my main goal to get during this time. in that respect, Tsunami and I are polar opposites

I do not believe I've seen this from scum!Noraa, except perhaps in a game I modded where she and a scumpartner theatered confident SRs on each other for a while D1. Even there i dont believe they were calling for quick elims on each other though.

May as well bring the thread in on this, Noraa and I have opposite takes on Pyro at the moment. hopefully she's shared most of hers so i'll just focus on what ive been saying

Pyro halting the momentum on his own wagon (War and Peace) or at least shifting from it in order to investigate Starcrossed for a supposed ellitell appears town to me. It comes across as a thought he genuinely had and feels is important enough to mention and confident enough to push -- whereas I struggle to find a decent incentive for scum Pyro to do this. Especially cause ellitells are kind of unsavoury but definitely could feel accurate to the user. I wondered if this is a purposeful distraction to a scum wagon but that just doesnt make much sense when he's cutting off his own wagon really (this was before BM)

^This is fine, but something I think I can fake as scum without too much worry.

The other thing i noticed was Pyro going for the full solve including one of his own townleans (without even going over the reasoning until a few posts later). i feel it betrays he's thinking pretty deeply about his reads, certainly more than surface-level takes on each individual player. Pyro definitely has does this in the past, even successfully calling out lots of scum this way, so it doesnt surprise me to see it

^This is a really good reason and made me realize I don't really do this as scum. Much appreciated for the intel.

Not convinced yet although Pyro does come off pretty fluid this game, very active, he does not like scum as much as town. i dont have a lot of experience with him as scum although this does match my town expectations

^Oh, and this is generally a towntell for me. The WIM does come to me easier as town, but it's not a surefire tell.

~Bat

This one

[Nancy Drew 39]

if Pyro's scum here his scumgame has improved significantly from an already pretty good baseline

I don't think the scumcase on Dunn would have happened if he were scum, neither would have the irritation towards kanna and us for SRing at start of day

And I don't foresee it being pb or clidd

So I could go back and pretend to notice what it is that made dunn scummy, but i think he played quite well actually, even if some of the fault is on me for not reading much further into the bit that made me tr him

i suppose my question to Dunn would be is, what did you mean exactly by how your role made you suspect WnP less, i suppose. Being able to point backwards and demonstrate how your role made you change your play and reads is really good for giving credibility to the claim but i didnt really think much about *why* your role made you think that just so much as it did

Oh he has an extremely impressive scumgame but not a suicidal one and both the Fey NK + Krazy Vanilla rolecop thing would definitely point to that. Also, his entire positioning on W & P is also pretty weird if scum. I guess I only suspected him because of PoE but I like him focusing specifically on Dunn, where as Dunn is pushing Clidd the hardest but still leaving the door open to push Pyro. Iow, Pyro being specifically focused on Dunn speaks to a townie mindset. Sure that can be faked but not something you see with any great frequency, so that alone in addition to everything else makes me think it isn’t him.

[Pyro]

Also, I feel bad for getting irritated and apologies for that, mitsuha. I know you're cheering for me behind the scenes and the comms sabotage was just a fluke

[Nancy Drew 39]

That's cool, whether we kill Dunny by virtue of you guys townreading me, or scumreading him, it works either way!

And Morning, you really were spot on with that early assessment you had of me, where you made me realise something that was missing in my scumgame.

I’m not sure which post you’re referring to but I wish I had read it before Trust Fall, is all I can say about that.

[Pyro]

lol dw, it was just my avatar that fooled you in Trust Fall. I'm still gonna switch to a waluigi one next time I roll scum against you

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also, I feel bad for getting irritated and apologies for that, mitsuha. I know you're cheering for me behind the scenes and the comms sabotage was just a fluke

“comms sabotage”????

[Nancy Drew 39]

lol dw, it was just my avatar that fooled you in Trust Fall. I'm still gonna switch to a waluigi one next time I roll scum against you

No, it was your correct read on me plus I also wrongly tr Pooky for ironically the exact same reasons you claimed to.

[Pyro]

Also, I feel bad for getting irritated and apologies for that, mitsuha. I know you're cheering for me behind the scenes and the comms sabotage was just a fluke

“comms sabotage”????

Yeah, scum probably sabotaged her computer irl and made her see scummy posts of mine that didn't exist. Hats off to Titus for the creative use

[Pyro]

lol dw, it was just my avatar that fooled you in Trust Fall. I'm still gonna switch to a waluigi one next time I roll scum against you

No, it was your correct read on me plus I also wrongly tr Pooky for ironically the exact same reasons you claimed to.

I thought those were pretty decent reasons at the time

[Nancy Drew 39]

Also, I feel bad for getting irritated and apologies for that, mitsuha. I know you're cheering for me behind the scenes and the comms sabotage was just a fluke

“comms sabotage”????

Yeah, scum probably sabotaged her computer irl and made her see scummy posts of mine that didn't exist. Hats off to Titus for the creative use

Titus is Neo from The Matrix, who knew?