Open 811 - Lovers and Losers [Day 1]

[RationalMadman]

VOTE: bingle - you know the reason why

also,

i am lovers with bambi—she can confirm this. everyone should claim if they are a lover, and if they are, with who, or if they're vt. doing so will make this game much easier for us to solve the rest of it.

Actually, it si helpful not to oit and to force Townies and Scum alike to out with reads regardless of alignment.

Do you know it's actually pretty dangerous to random vote in this setup? You easily start a bandwagon that if jist one other (assuming you're Town) Townie piles on, then for all you know you vote off either the other pair of lovers or a vanilla Townie.

I will not be outing yet, I want to force others to read me and will out later.

[RationalMadman]

@tbone it's because i'm a very mechanical-based player, and if i get focused on something, (eg massclaim at the start to figure out the game from there), i tend to hyperfixate on it.

This setup is 0% mechanical in how things will play out, why would you even sign up for it? This comes down entirely to reads, not sure I townread your lover pair at all yet.

[RationalMadman]

T-bone is acting strangely 'I dosagree with you but we're cool right?' I don't Townread it. Vex's entry I default to a Town read for sure. Love that he cautioned the massclaim coming too soon but... Why did he then out instantly?

Regardless, Llama and also Bingle default Town for me.

[RationalMadman]

Vote RM

Do you think players will read you differently if you claim or not claim?

Yes, I do and Scum will struggle to know hownhard to hide their lover aprtner vs VT partner, the interactions will leak tells later on.

[RationalMadman]

Sorry I said Vex:s entry I meant Llama's entey, brain fart.

[RationalMadman]

I can't even explain the brainf art but I confused the lion avatar with Vex for no explainable reason, I meant I default Llama's entry to Town as well as Bingle's.

[RationalMadman]

I actually nullread Vex anyway, however I scumread T-bone.

[RationalMadman]

Vex Vience, can you and bambi talk im the PT during the day?

(This doesn't confirm me as vanilla townie), I am curious how rapidly you answer and what the answer is.

I ask as you're online rn.

[RationalMadman]

Sure it implies that but you knowing that amd answering so rapidly makes me Townread you now. I am also a lover and my partner I will keep secret for now unless you want me to out him/her/them.

It says that yes, it doesn't say you can't talk further than that.

[RationalMadman]

I had to ask the mod to find out as bothy partner and I were confused but what you say is indeed the truth.

[RationalMadman]

Rapidly, correctly and even got angry that I'd tedt yoy woth something yoy found trivial for scum to solve. It is all towny

[RationalMadman]

@RM - What exactly changed between not wanting to claim and when you did? Just trap setting or something else?

I have a vote against me and another lover pair is going to ge fenraged at me over it soon and I happen to now read one of them as Town so it doesn't serve me to withhold the claim as I mechanically questioned Vex and he passed the test but as a VT I couldn't necessarily do so at that point without leaking I am a lover.

My partner and I decided it's better not to out each other or roles but my oartner did warn me that if people demand it I should just give in.

[RationalMadman]

2) i didn't get angry. i don't know where you're getting that from.
3) obviously i'd answer correctly even if i was scum, because if i didn't i'd instantly out the fact i'm scum.

none of this implicates me as town as well. this is all just nai.

Not sure how to reply that you seemed angry and aggressive without indirectly insulting your self-awareness but let's say I'm wrong.

In my wrong interpretation of your response to me, you were aggressive, upset that I'd ask what you find so easy and now furthermore hostile towards me because I townread you for said reaction.

It is indeed alignment indicative, your aggression is what Town has in this setup more than Scum. Town is panicking and alert because it os the equivalent of complete darkness in an environment where only scum has night vosion goggles and unloke other setups, not a single bit of that vision will in any shape or form become passively clearer as things progress via investigation results. This meams Town feels much more pressure to do something and hunt while Scum wants the game as laid-back as possible.

[RationalMadman]

Im just trying to feel this all out because maybe im more drunk than I think... so claiming is a null tell now? Im just trying to read where everyone is in pro/anti claim and how (if at all) they see it alignment wise.

Claiming is always a nulltell but my actual role is going to help scum, who will prefer to pile on lone VTs to easier know to avoid picking on me. If they know my partner, it will help them pile on us both at once rather than accidentally townreading my partner so it's harder to justify later (or vice versa).

[RationalMadman]

Sure, thry votr you after I flip, deal Ana?

[RationalMadman]

Ana doesn't claim just votes me, so I'm assuming she is claiming lover if it's Vex vs myself in her eyes.

[RationalMadman]

Voting me so impulsively on anoure gut read isntt what Town would do here. She's risking two Lovers die if she's Town solely based on a fluttering read.

[RationalMadman]

Doesn't make any sense at all. I am being scumread because Vex seems to know the setup, makes absolutely not logical sense at all, I am assuming Ana is softclaiming Lover because of her vote being based on Townreading Vex

[RationalMadman]

I'm liver with bingle

[RationalMadman]

@mod where did Vex vote me?

[RationalMadman]

Nvm I understand what is written now the lack of gao between liens confused me

[RationalMadman]

What fucking reasoning am I being voted vased on, Vex seeming to know the setup? Being confident? You townread confidence?

[RationalMadman]

I don't understand Ana's reasoning at all, I believe she's the fake pair at present.

[RationalMadman]

Her voting me also blackmailed me to out my partner which I explicitly said I wanted to stall to release reads

[RationalMadman]

I townread VV's belief that he's pushing to solve/win the game for the townside.

There is nothing to solve this is an open setup...

[RationalMadman]

The only thing to solve was who are the pairs and singles and alignment hut you've ruined the first part

[RationalMadman]

[quote="In post 62, Bambi Jay"]If it makes you feel better Rational they made me do that in the last harder setup when I thought it was a better idea to hide everything. My partner wanted to go hard tho so I just said fuck it they do them.

Anyway, since I respect Bingle as a player I'll wait for him before trying to vote you out and quick elim you both. My plan still revolves killing the other 2 lover pairs first. So I'll let Bingle try to convince me it's Anastasia and Kerset first.

But that leaves the 3 VT players as the people I was more afraid to read solo without a pair. Lovely.[/quote

Uou should rewpect every player equally. Wrre

[RationalMadman]

We're all equally likely to be scum as each other regardless of OGI respect

[RationalMadman]

I don't understand what is happening here. I am being scumread based on overconfidence of Vex and my oartner is being told he is respected so I will be given mercy? Stupid reasoning. Bambi's post is fluff to reassure me instead of attacking or defending

[RationalMadman]

It feels like you are trying to pour milk back into a broken bottle.

Yes, one you broke.

[RationalMadman]

Respect being "it would make me feel bad if I killed them before they can defend themself". I do respect most people that aren't hard lurkers and/or mostly jerks.

Lurkers and jerks can be town just as easily as any other player type. You should be just as ready to eliminate any player as another at any gamestart (in this case not the lover partner).

[RationalMadman]

I didn't want to out my partner exactly so any respect or disrespect to one didn't tarnish reads on the other, use your brains.

[RationalMadman]

Also it is only scum who'd want to rush the day, why would Town want to rush the vote here? This setup is 100% tells-based no investigations to rush towards

[RationalMadman]

However I don't like Bambi's entry at all, it seems designed to make me feel soothed and remain hostile to the Anastasia lover pair instead

[RationalMadman]

Ok vote me out idgaf, enjoy the loss if you're town and never ever vote someone on this bullshit reasoning again. If you're scum well dome you won by BS reasoning, that is if you aren't voted out next. Do it, vote me, I won't gamethrow amd vote myself.

[RationalMadman]

Vote me. I don't want to be in this shit situation later on where clearly everyone is biased and too incapable to read to townread me and bingle based on bias, better to eliminate me with the free miselimination

[RationalMadman]

This isn't WIFOM eliminate me right now and then eliminate Anastasia's pair, she deserves to lose wothe if Town pushing for no fucking reason

[RationalMadman]

No really. Lover pairs absolutely need to claim everything they talked about pregame for something I see. Like now. As in back when I asked first time.

I ranted to Bingle over several posts about being active not being weak or a pushover as this is dog eat dog setup solely based on aggression getting results.

He agreed and promised to try his best and agreed to my no-reveal strategy but warned he feared if I pushed too hard with it it would doom us so I remained stubborn andnhe promised jot to out us until forced to

[RationalMadman]

Bingle also let me know he's Jingle and has once played with me before

[RationalMadman]

Okay Vex, first of all it was a simple question. You don't need mod approval to talk about what was in the PT or the Masons would be modkilled infinitely. Just be general and don't quote anything.

Also Ration, what did Bingle talk about in the PT? Did he give you any plans to follow? Was it his idea to not claim?

No it was my idea entirely and he agreed with it but warned to not steamroll it of others pressured it to be massclaim

[RationalMadman]

Or she or they I am mot sure of Bingle pronoun

[RationalMadman]

I don't understand what is happening here. I am being scumread based on overconfidence of Vex and my oartner is being told he is respected so I will be given mercy? Stupid reasoning. Bambi's post is fluff to reassure me instead of attacking or defending

I am literally not voting you only because I wanna talk to Bingle. Don't try and attack me for showing mercy.

Also Ana if you wanna convince me it's those 2 instead of you be my guest.

Don't ever show mercy to scum in this game. If you think I am scum vote without any mercy, if you dobt hesitate for solely selfish reasons. Always play to win, never to be nice.

[RationalMadman]

If you doubt*

[RationalMadman]

I informed Bingle that we don't talk past D1's start as Bingle asked it in the PT and I'd already asked, it was a passing comment among the bigger discussion

[RationalMadman]

Already asked in PM*

[RationalMadman]

i don't like that reasoning rm.
you're claiming lover, meaning i have to read your slot as the combination of two players. i'm not gonna yeet a player on page five because i think they're scum in the pseudo-rvs stage of the game

I don't like any of your reasoning either, doesn't matter if we like each other's reasoning, just mattersnif our own is solid or not.

[RationalMadman]

RM I really don't understand your reaction from a TownPOV..

Because like you have only 1 vote on you? Maybe 3 if Bambi/VV vote you?

Kerset hasn't even joined the game yet.. The level of desperation you're throwing out feels not very much like it should be coming from a townPOV

I'm almost feeling like you are trying to sink your own ship to obfuscate who your partner is?

I had two, liar.

[RationalMadman]

@RM - So anything beyond claim talk?

No other than Bingle telling of the Jingle identity and me being surprised how agreeable the armosphere was betwen us of my suggested strategy despite Bingle clearly disagreeing saying we're just a Hydra and that it won't matter in the end

[RationalMadman]

Anastasia pretends to nit understand why I'd panic as a Lover who has someone else dying with me in a setup where only five votes are required to vote me out when two are against me and one of them is a non-lover.

[RationalMadman]

i'm feeling more and more confident on ana being town, and rm being scum ngl

You were quick to tell me what's NAI, what is AI that I or Ana has done

[RationalMadman]

I am now extremely certain I was wrong, when you vote me out vote Vex and Bambi after me. I was incorrect. Anastasia is being cleverly pitted against me and Bambi and Vex are feigning hesitation to justify thebvote one and disassociate later

[RationalMadman]

VOTE: Vex Vince

[RationalMadman]

Ana's pair is the town pair with me and bingle, Vex and Bambi are laughing in scum chat olaying both sides of this, it's very blatant.

[RationalMadman]

I am absolutely certain of this read now.

[RationalMadman]

Vote me and then vote vex or bambi either works since it's same pair

[RationalMadman]

Maybe it's correct and he wants us to murder Rational quickly to get it over with.

Disgusting OGI read that is false, a 'haja I was only kidding' remark to influence others to pile on me. The 'maybe' is a slip of consistently displayed assurance that I am actually Town shown from Bambi towards me.

[RationalMadman]

Today is Bingle andyself vs Vex and Bambi do not let them play any sides against each other anymore.

[RationalMadman]

"haha I can vote you but Ia let yo be as I respect Bingle you owe me yeah?"

No, I don't and neither does Bingle.

[RationalMadman]

We aren't friends here, one of our pairs directly wants the others to lose. Stop this act. I don't respect any of you less than any other. You're all trash and all amazing in your own ways, I focus on tells and indication of scum. If I think you're scum, I'll vote a d encourage others to. Idc if I reapect your lover partner like a god, I vote you.

Bambi is trying to seem inquisitive and understanding but if you properly analyse it, it's just positioning the pair of Vex and Bambi perfectly so both lover pairs Ana vs Rational can get voted off.


I have excellent grammar in real life. I rush to type on a smartphone at times here, I also like it as it forces people to read what I'm saying a little harder while deciphering it.

[RationalMadman]

This is a game. I want to have fun. Let me meme in peace or I literally just can tunnel you while not talking instead.

Also sup Bingle. Good to see ya.

Go ahead, don't empty threat. I want this to be you vs us.

[RationalMadman]

Okay so confirmed a few things... look at scum lover example and count link to PTs. Its one. So scum probably never got a scum lover PT. Which is why I think what VV-Bambi did is way too complex to be fake outside of them actually prepping for it. There is a legitimate chance scum never had one, so if they werent aware the entire topic talk is fabricated.

Ah if only I got Jingle bells or one of the list mods or something and I got the be the bad cop to their good cop and shit. That would've been fun.

I was hoping to be scum with llama, but I'd have been happy to be paired with you or Kori as well. It's been a while. Town PM kinda sucks tho.

Not sure why anyone would want that... granted I have a knack for breaking open setups haven been the old LM for five-ish years (and poking around my C9++/JK9++ massive town advantage formula is no longer being used???), but that usually means you want to be town with me

What are you talking about?

Whst did Vex do that required previous collaboration with Bambi so supremely?

[RationalMadman]

Oh yeah speaking of the word respect... Ration went hard on me for showing mercy? Do you know why Bingle? Like... Explain to me his thought process for me. He'll just yell at me if I ask him.

If you think me and Bingle are scum what use os this post?

If you think Bingle and me are Town this is useful to disarm us as you're trying to create rapport with Bingle after failing to with me.

[RationalMadman]

If you think Bingle and me are Town this is useful to disarm us as you're trying to create rapport with Bingle after failing to with me.

Both VV and Bambi know better than to try to pocket me.

Arrogance will be our downfall, never underestimate your capacity to be manipulated by someone. Bambi is playing to disarm me via you.

[RationalMadman]

?

Also yeah that's why I'm being non combative.

Plus I just need your vote with Vex and the 2 VTs to vote out the Anastasia pair if we find out they're the evil party.

Ration's cooperation there is not imperitive.

[RationalMadman]

Better hope hard

[RationalMadman]

We aren't friends here, one of our pairs directly wants the others to lose. Stop this act. I don't respect any of you less than any other. You're all trash and all amazing in your own ways, I focus on tells and indication of scum. If I think you're scum, I'll vote a d encourage others to. Idc if I reapect your lover partner like a god, I vote you.

Bambi is trying to seem inquisitive and understanding but if you properly analyse it, it's just positioning the pair of Vex and Bambi perfectly so both lover pairs Ana vs Rational can get voted off.


I have excellent grammar in real life. I rush to type on a smartphone at times here, I also like it as it forces people to read what I'm saying a little harder while deciphering it.

1) why is pushing someone who appears to be scummy wanting the others to lose? isn't that the entire point of mafia? to find the scum and push them? yes, obviously not all town will be perfectly townie, and not all scum will be scummy. but trying to push a scumread isn't gamethrowing like you're equating.
2) i really don't like all the spelling errors, because that means i have to take more time to actually figure out what you're saying. no offense to you, but if i'm spending a significant part of my time while reading the game simply trying to figure out what you're saying, i'm going to want to policy yeet you *just* so i don't have to read your stuff.

Yoy didn't push me, you played the middle and still are. Anastasia pushed me even after I said I was willing to go down, meaning it probably does add up that her read was genuine and she was ready to hard-gamble on it. Also Anastasia's responses were solely designed towards further getting others to scumread me which is Towny tunneling, not scummy tunneling as she knew very well if I flip Town how it looks on her. I also like that she did all this without her lover partner being around or backing her up, it is a very Towny dynamic where the Lover pair are running on independent initatives whereas you and Bambi seem artificially united in all ways.

[RationalMadman]

i think you're scum. i'm not pushing you because it's way too early for me to do so. i want everyone to post, and weigh in on this before i actually commit to pushing you. i also want to talk to your lover, because talking to you is about as productive as talking to a brick wall.
i will gladly provide a full case on why i think you're scum later in the day after we have more time to discuss things, and when i'm not about to sleep.

You think it now, give the case right now, no time to make shit up or use later information.

[RationalMadman]

it's page eight. your lover hasn't chimed in that much.
about half of the players haven't even said anything yet.
please explain to me in what world does me pushing a scumread this early makes any sense.

You don't have any read on me, you're just grasping at straws.

[RationalMadman]

Lovers

Town

RM and Bingle (of course)
Anastasia and Kerset

Both have displayed signs of having independent agendas without seeking approval and synergy with the partner within the pairings (lacking live day-chat and wanting badly to scumhunt from the get-go results in this) as well as dedication to voting off a scumread that entails willingness to be voted off first or afterwards.

Scum

Vex Vience and Bambi Jay

Too much to name even,

Generic posts full of fluff to seem Towny, proudly proclaiming oneself to be a passionately mechanical player in a setup that involves almost 0% mechanics... The only time I ask a mechanical question, expresses annoyance at me asking it since it is apparently too easy to decipher from the PM (which left it open to interpretation). This could be Towny on its own however... Since then, played both sides the millisecond it appeared as an opportunity, and operate as a pair throughout.

Bambi appears less sure of who is scum than Vex but both blatantly are playing both sides between the Lover pairs, Vex is only claiming to scumread me because it's convenient to claim and agreed with Anastasia while leaving full blame on Ana for the elimination when and if it occured, Vex also didn't dedicate with a vote despite claiming to have a read on me as scum and still passionately claims to have it with secret reasoning that is too precious to rush to release...

Junk, fluff, obfuscation... You come with what you want as a term, the posts are full of it.

_______________________________________________________________________

Lone/Solo

All three Null but T-bone very strange and forced interaction early on followed by nothing.

Llamafluff has successfully positioned into being an active and therefore blatantly default-towniest player but keeps trying to overplay this position, encouraging the entire game to switch dynamics and focus on the solo vanillas while knowing full well that the other 2 haven't towntold at all (Klick hasn't even posted yet).

Kerset and Klick both must post for us to sufficiently read but at the moment I would say that it's actually more certain of an elimination in the Lovers than the vanillas so I don't get the complaint from Llama, however that is because I know my pair is Town and have a strong read on which of the other two isn't.

[RationalMadman]

I don't really buy the story between RM and Bingle in their PT, it feels like RM made it up on the spot and Bingle had to roll with it. The interactions don't feel in character for Bingle

Why did Bingle not out then in his initial post?

[RationalMadman]

Llama I think you underestimate my own capabilities in messing about with open setups. This is my sort of thing as well, particularly when I'm aiming to keep a story straight as scum.
Vex/Bambi are likely just town, period.

I'm confused how any part of this post leads to the ending.

[RationalMadman]

Anastasia and Kerset

Both have displayed signs of having independent agendas without seeking approval and synergy with the partner within the pairings (lacking live day-chat and wanting badly to scumhunt from the get-go results in this) as well as dedication to voting off a scumread that entails willingness to be voted off first or afterwards.

Did you just judge my synergy with Ana, before my appearance?

If you flip it around, yes.

Ana would wait to make such aove and definitely before keeping it going if you were scum together, that's why I townread you two very hard, she kept wanting to vote me through to elimination no matter what I did and only rethought things ironically after I said vote me off and then vote Vex off but that is actually a Towntell to unvote there because Scum is likely to keep tunneling me or after unvoting would turn on the other pair, she just unvoted and stopped posting, indicating genuine authentic confusion and hesitation.

[RationalMadman]

Ana did all that without in any shape or form you showing up to agree with or support her, implying lack of dynergy and lack of off-thread (this thread) chat where things are secretly being orchestrated.

[RationalMadman]

Wow. So far not a single person besides Ration scumreads us atm. not even his lover.

Frankly if Tbone is scum he'll come back and super get rid of Ration with distancing. So I guess atm we can solve the solos instead.

Amazing, right? Then why did Anastasia unvote me? Why did Llama do the same? You think nobody is scumreading you? They're just scared to pick a fight.

[RationalMadman]

Hmmmm if Llama is the partner of Bambi, that nay have been a slip by Bambi since he should assume Llama could scumread him.

[RationalMadman]

May*

[RationalMadman]

She* sorry

[RationalMadman]

Bambi assumed nbodoy scumreads her, yet Llama unvoted me and never stated a scumreas on Anastasia.

[RationalMadman]

@rm, i want you to explain what caused you to go from townreading me, to suddenly scumreading me, on top of explaining your logic in the following quotes:

Spoiler:

I am now extremely certain I was wrong, when you vote me out vote Vex and Bambi after me. I was incorrect. Anastasia is being cleverly pitted against me and Bambi and Vex are feigning hesitation to justify thebvote one and disassociate later

Ana's pair is the town pair with me and bingle, Vex and Bambi are laughing in scum chat olaying both sides of this, it's very blatant.

Today is Bingle andyself vs Vex and Bambi do not let them play any sides against each other anymore.

We aren't friends here, one of our pairs directly wants the others to lose. Stop this act. I don't respect any of you less than any other. You're all trash and all amazing in your own ways, I focus on tells and indication of scum. If I think you're scum, I'll vote a d encourage others to. Idc if I reapect your lover partner like a god, I vote you.

Bambi is trying to seem inquisitive and understanding but if you properly analyse it, it's just positioning the pair of Vex and Bambi perfectly so both lover pairs Ana vs Rational can get voted off.


I have excellent grammar in real life. I rush to type on a smartphone at times here, I also like it as it forces people to read what I'm saying a little harder while deciphering it.

Lovers

Town

RM and Bingle (of course)
Anastasia and Kerset

Both have displayed signs of having independent agendas without seeking approval and synergy with the partner within the pairings (lacking live day-chat and wanting badly to scumhunt from the get-go results in this) as well as dedication to voting off a scumread that entails willingness to be voted off first or afterwards.

Scum

Vex Vience and Bambi Jay

Too much to name even,

Generic posts full of fluff to seem Towny, proudly proclaiming oneself to be a passionately mechanical player in a setup that involves almost 0% mechanics... The only time I ask a mechanical question, expresses annoyance at me asking it since it is apparently too easy to decipher from the PM (which left it open to interpretation). This could be Towny on its own however... Since then, played both sides the millisecond it appeared as an opportunity, and operate as a pair throughout.

Bambi appears less sure of who is scum than Vex but both blatantly are playing both sides between the Lover pairs, Vex is only claiming to scumread me because it's convenient to claim and agreed with Anastasia while leaving full blame on Ana for the elimination when and if it occured, Vex also didn't dedicate with a vote despite claiming to have a read on me as scum and still passionately claims to have it with secret reasoning that is too precious to rush to release...

Junk, fluff, obfuscation... You come with what you want as a term, the posts are full of it.

_______________________________________________________________________

Lone/Solo

All three Null but T-bone very strange and forced interaction early on followed by nothing.

Llamafluff has successfully positioned into being an active and therefore blatantly default-towniest player but keeps trying to overplay this position, encouraging the entire game to switch dynamics and focus on the solo vanillas while knowing full well that the other 2 haven't towntold at all (Klick hasn't even posted yet).

Kerset and Klick both must post for us to sufficiently read but at the moment I would say that it's actually more certain of an elimination in the Lovers than the vanillas so I don't get the complaint from Llama, however that is because I know my pair is Town and have a strong read on which of the other two isn't.

We aren't friends here, one of our pairs directly wants the others to lose. Stop this act. I don't respect any of you less than any other. You're all trash and all amazing in your own ways, I focus on tells and indication of scum. If I think you're scum, I'll vote a d encourage others to. Idc if I reapect your lover partner like a god, I vote you.

Bambi is trying to seem inquisitive and understanding but if you properly analyse it, it's just positioning the pair of Vex and Bambi perfectly so both lover pairs Ana vs Rational can get voted off.


I have excellent grammar in real life. I rush to type on a smartphone at times here, I also like it as it forces people to read what I'm saying a little harder while deciphering it.

1) why is pushing someone who appears to be scummy wanting the others to lose? isn't that the entire point of mafia? to find the scum and push them? yes, obviously not all town will be perfectly townie, and not all scum will be scummy. but trying to push a scumread isn't gamethrowing like you're equating.
2) i really don't like all the spelling errors, because that means i have to take more time to actually figure out what you're saying. no offense to you, but if i'm spending a significant part of my time while reading the game simply trying to figure out what you're saying, i'm going to want to policy yeet you *just* so i don't have to read your stuff.

Yoy didn't push me, you played the middle and still are. Anastasia pushed me even after I said I was willing to go down, meaning it probably does add up that her read was genuine and she was ready to hard-gamble on it. Also Anastasia's responses were solely designed towards further getting others to scumread me which is Towny tunneling, not scummy tunneling as she knew very well if I flip Town how it looks on her. I also like that she did all this without her lover partner being around or backing her up, it is a very Towny dynamic where the Lover pair are running on independent initatives whereas you and Bambi seem artificially united in all ways.

i also want you to elaborate fully on your case against us. if i'm making a full scumcase against you, i want you to do the same

Nope. I already explained what did.

[RationalMadman]

Spoiler: case

@tbone it's because i'm a very mechanical-based player, and if i get focused on something, (eg massclaim at the start to figure out the game from there), i tend to hyperfixate on it.

This setup is 0% mechanical in how things will play out, why would you even sign up for it? This comes down entirely to reads, not sure I townread your lover pair at all yet.

first, the question about "why would you sign up for a game if you're a very mechanical player" comes off as weird, but is mostly nai to me. it's only the bit about not tring me that i really don't like.
second, i don't like how he's saying "not townreading." he later goes on and uses it as the equivalent to scumreading, which doesn't sit right with me considering he goes on to actually tr me based on flimsy reasons.

T-bone is acting strangely 'I dosagree with you but we're cool right?' I don't Townread it. Vex's entry I default to a Town read for sure. Love that he cautioned the massclaim coming too soon but... Why did he then out instantly?

Regardless, Llama and also Bingle default Town for me.

i agree with the llama read, but not the bingle read at this point in the game. this now makes sense seeing as bingle is their lover, but at the time, this felt really weird.
note as well, they're meaning llama and not me.

Vote RM

Do you think players will read you differently if you claim or not claim?

Yes, I do and Scum will struggle to know hownhard to hide their lover aprtner vs VT partner, the interactions will leak tells later on.

this post makes no sense to me from a town!pov. if you're town, it doesn't matter to them about how hard they're hiding their lover/goon partners—they know you're town regardless.

Sorry I said Vex:s entry I meant Llama's entey, brain fart.

I can't even explain the brainf art but I confused the lion avatar with Vex for no explainable reason, I meant I default Llama's entry to Town as well as Bingle's.

these two posts literally add nothing. i'd be fine with the first one correcting the second one, but the second post explaining it feels very TMI to me.

I actually nullread Vex anyway, however I scumread T-bone.

clarification about what his reads are. i guess it makes sense from a town pov to do something like this to get reactions, but at the same time not really?

Vex Vience, can you and bambi talk im the PT during the day?

(This doesn't confirm me as vanilla townie), I am curious how rapidly you answer and what the answer is.

I ask as you're online rn.

this post feels very awkward to me. "hey you said you're a lover, can you and your lover talk in your pt during the day? i'm also not confirmed to be vt because of this" is just a very weird position. looking at it as if the two of them were scum also leads me to believe that this is an attempt to get the town lover pair to publicly confirm if they can talk so they can keep a story straight.

Sure it implies that but you knowing that amd answering so rapidly makes me Townread you now. I am also a lover and my partner I will keep secret for now unless you want me to out him/her/them.

It says that yes, it doesn't say you can't talk further than that.

this post just makes zero sense, especially the latter part. like yes it does actually say that town lovers can't talk past the start of d1, and it does say that scum in general can talk past d1?
and also, the tr on me makes no sense, but i guess it could possibly come from town? it seems more like an attempt at pocketing because the tr is based solely on the fact i read the setup.

I had to ask the mod to find out as bothy partner and I were confused but what you say is indeed the truth.

tbf, i didn't think the wording was confusing, but i wanted to have mod-confirmation that the pt would be locked, which would give me an incentive to actually try to get mech play down at the very start. i feel like being confused about if the pt is gonna be locked comes from scum more often in this, because not only do scum lack the lover pt, they only have the one pt.

Rapidly, correctly and even got angry that I'd tedt yoy woth something yoy found trivial for scum to solve. It is all towny

i still don't like the fact he's trying to portray me as getting angry at him for asking me to literally read the setup.

@RM - What exactly changed between not wanting to claim and when you did? Just trap setting or something else?

I have a vote against me and another lover pair is going to ge fenraged at me over it soon and I happen to now read one of them as Town so it doesn't serve me to withhold the claim as I mechanically questioned Vex and he passed the test but as a VT I couldn't necessarily do so at that point without leaking I am a lover.

My partner and I decided it's better not to out each other or roles but my oartner did warn me that if people demand it I should just give in.

i don't see how the single vote against, and the other lover pair equates to having to reveal you're a lover at that exact point. if they were town, they could've just kept it hidden and seen if the scum lovers would've revealed they're lovers. i feel like this comes from scum realizing i've said that if only two pairs reveal, they're both ics, and they want to get that conf!town status.

2) i didn't get angry. i don't know where you're getting that from.
3) obviously i'd answer correctly even if i was scum, because if i didn't i'd instantly out the fact i'm scum.

none of this implicates me as town as well. this is all just nai.

Not sure how to reply that you seemed angry and aggressive without indirectly insulting your self-awareness but let's say I'm wrong.

In my wrong interpretation of your response to me, you were aggressive, upset that I'd ask what you find so easy and now furthermore hostile towards me because I townread you for said reaction.

It is indeed alignment indicative, your aggression is what Town has in this setup more than Scum. Town is panicking and alert because it os the equivalent of complete darkness in an environment where only scum has night vosion goggles and unloke other setups, not a single bit of that vision will in any shape or form become passively clearer as things progress via investigation results. This meams Town feels much more pressure to do something and hunt while Scum wants the game as laid-back as possible.

once again, they're trying to portray emotions onto my post which i feel like is a blatant attempt at trying to pocket me.
i also don't get the analogy whatsoever, but if it makes sense to them, i guess that's cool.
i would also like to note, it does feel like rm has convinction in their words at this point about me being scum, which makes their later 180 on me very questionable

Im just trying to feel this all out because maybe im more drunk than I think... so claiming is a null tell now? Im just trying to read where everyone is in pro/anti claim and how (if at all) they see it alignment wise.

Claiming is always a nulltell but my actual role is going to help scum, who will prefer to pile on lone VTs to easier know to avoid picking on me. If they know my partner, it will help them pile on us both at once rather than accidentally townreading my partner so it's harder to justify later (or vice versa).

you can be scummy and your lover be town though? like, that's what i don't get with this. also, why would claiming help scum? scum have to get two miselims in a row to win pretty much, and if we flip a vt, we're obviously gonna look at the wagon so like, why would scum wanna pile onto the vts like that?

Sure, thry votr you after I flip, deal Ana?

rm i feel is acknowledging the fact that ana claimed lovers, and then goes on to say this:

Ana doesn't claim just votes me, so I'm assuming she is claiming lover if it's Vex vs myself in her eyes.

ana literally said she wants her ic card, *after i said that lovers are effectively ics*. like, that is literally just claiming lover without directly stating "hey i'm lover"

Voting me so impulsively on anoure gut read isntt what Town would do here. She's risking two Lovers die if she's Town solely based on a fluttering read.

this reasoning doesn't make sense to me either. ana literally provided her reasoning, saying that she liked my posting more than rm's, which leads her to believe that i'm town and that rm is scum.

Doesn't make any sense at all. I am being scumread because Vex seems to know the setup, makes absolutely not logical sense at all, I am assuming Ana is softclaiming Lover because of her vote being based on Townreading Vex

once again, going with "i'm not sure ana is lover"

I'm liver with bingle

this is nai, but i wanted to just include it so we have it in the case. this occured after ana claimed lover as well.

What fucking reasoning am I being voted vased on, Vex seeming to know the setup? Being confident? You townread confidence?

rm apparently doesn't know the reasoning why they're being voted, but states they want ana to flip after they do, like ???
how do you get to this without reading the rest of the post, especially after you say you type with poor grammar on purpose so people have to read your own posts?

Her voting me also blackmailed me to out my partner which I explicitly said I wanted to stall to release reads

they never said they wanted to stall; rather, they said they would out if i asked them to. so ???

I townread VV's belief that he's pushing to solve/win the game for the townside.

There is nothing to solve this is an open setup...

this post just sits weirdly with me. i commented on it already, but it still sits weirdly with me.

The only thing to solve was who are the pairs and singles and alignment hut you've ruined the first part

i don't like the "i want to keep lovers secret" type of thing. it kinda feels like scum wanting to hopefully get an easy victory after quickhammering a lover who didn't reveal that. additionally, why would town not want to have lovers outed when it makes the game easier to solve?

We're all equally likely to be scum as each other regardless of OGI respect

this post just feels very out of place? like, why state the obvious here?

I don't understand what is happening here. I am being scumread based on overconfidence of Vex and my oartner is being told he is respected so I will be given mercy? Stupid reasoning. Bambi's post is fluff to reassure me instead of attacking or defending

this post just doesn't sit very well with me. bambi's post was literally saying "i don't wanna kill you yet because your partner hasn't had a chance to defend themselves yet"
how is that stupid reasoning and/or fluff?
(this post is also quoted by rm just below it)

Respect being "it would make me feel bad if I killed them before they can defend themself". I do respect most people that aren't hard lurkers and/or mostly jerks.

Lurkers and jerks can be town just as easily as any other player type. You should be just as ready to eliminate any player as another at any gamestart (in this case not the lover partner).

i don't see the town motivation in saying something like this. "you should always be ready to kill someone, even if they haven't been able to defend themselves yet"
like, mate, do you not realize if we elim two lovers or two vts, we lose? like, of course we want to give people time to defend themselves, plus it hasn't even been a full irl day.

I didn't want to out my partner exactly so any respect or disrespect to one didn't tarnish reads on the other, use your brains.

this directly contridicts what he said in 32:

I am also a lover and my partner I will keep secret for now unless you want me to out him/her/them.

---

Also it is only scum who'd want to rush the day, why would Town want to rush the vote here? This setup is 100% tells-based no investigations to rush towards

once again, this contridicts an earlier statement. he wants us to be ready to elim someone at the start of the game, and then goes on to say "oh only scum would wanna do that" like what?? how the fuck are you *this* inconsistent?

However I don't like Bambi's entry at all, it seems designed to make me feel soothed and remain hostile to the Anastasia lover pair instead

i looked at bambi's entrance, and i didn't notice anything particularly weird about it? it makes sense to me as a reasonable human being thing to do in a game?

Ok vote me out idgaf, enjoy the loss if you're town and never ever vote someone on this bullshit reasoning again. If you're scum well dome you won by BS reasoning, that is if you aren't voted out next. Do it, vote me, I won't gamethrow amd vote myself.

Vote me. I don't want to be in this shit situation later on where clearly everyone is biased and too incapable to read to townread me and bingle based on bias, better to eliminate me with the free miselimination

This isn't WIFOM eliminate me right now and then eliminate Anastasia's pair, she deserves to lose wothe if Town pushing for no fucking reason

with no pressure on him, he starts saying this, which doesn't feel like a town thing to do. at all. there was no pressure on them, so there was zero reason to all of the sudden switch to "elim me"??

Or she or they I am mot sure of Bingle pronoun

this just takes up space for no reason, and i don't like it. like, i get trying to follow the pronoun rules and stuff, but honestly, i don't like this post.

I don't understand what is happening here. I am being scumread based on overconfidence of Vex and my oartner is being told he is respected so I will be given mercy? Stupid reasoning. Bambi's post is fluff to reassure me instead of attacking or defending

I am literally not voting you only because I wanna talk to Bingle. Don't try and attack me for showing mercy.

Also Ana if you wanna convince me it's those 2 instead of you be my guest.

Don't ever show mercy to scum in this game. If you think I am scum vote without any mercy, if you dobt hesitate for solely selfish reasons. Always play to win, never to be nice.

the don't hesistate to elim me thing just strikes me as weird. i don't know how to phrase it exactly, but it's the entire "elim me now" type of thing i'm not liking.

I informed Bingle that we don't talk past D1's start as Bingle asked it in the PT and I'd already asked, it was a passing comment among the bigger discussion

once again the phrasing of "we don't talk past d1" just feels very weird. i'd expect can't, but not don't.

i don't like that reasoning rm.
you're claiming lover, meaning i have to read your slot as the combination of two players. i'm not gonna yeet a player on page five because i think they're scum in the pseudo-rvs stage of the game

I don't like any of your reasoning either, doesn't matter if we like each other's reasoning, just mattersnif our own is solid or not.

"i don't like your reasoning, but i'm still townreading you because of stuff you did earlier" - this makes sense how?

RM I really don't understand your reaction from a TownPOV..

Because like you have only 1 vote on you? Maybe 3 if Bambi/VV vote you?

Kerset hasn't even joined the game yet.. The level of desperation you're throwing out feels not very much like it should be coming from a townPOV

I'm almost feeling like you are trying to sink your own ship to obfuscate who your partner is?

I had two, liar.

bringing this up is important how? it just feels like rm is trying to throw out posts to clog the thread.

Anastasia pretends to nit understand why I'd panic as a Lover who has someone else dying with me in a setup where only five votes are required to vote me out when two are against me and one of them is a non-lover.

he goes from wanting to be elim'd to suddenly saying that he cares about jingle dying alongside him, when the entire point of us not eliming them at that very moment was to give jingle time to talk? what
how does this make *any* sense from a town!pov?

I am now extremely certain I was wrong, when you vote me out vote Vex and Bambi after me. I was incorrect. Anastasia is being cleverly pitted against me and Bambi and Vex are feigning hesitation to justify thebvote one and disassociate later

VOTE: Vex Vince

Ana's pair is the town pair with me and bingle, Vex and Bambi are laughing in scum chat olaying both sides of this, it's very blatant.

I am absolutely certain of this read now.

the following quotes happen in the space of this sudden change of heart:

Ah if only I got Jingle bells or one of the list mods or something and I got the be the bad cop to their good cop and shit. That would've been fun.

Dang it Ana you better not be evil after proven to be a player after my own style. I'd feel sad now.

My heart is pure <3

Pure evil huh

i'm feeling more and more confident on ana being town, and rm being scum ngl

You were quick to tell me what's NAI, what is AI that I or Ana has done

so what's the issue here then? if it's two townies, then the third one joins in, scum can't quickhammer because that exposes them
if it's two scum, scum can't quickhammer because not enough people

@mod

- Can you confirm all sent roles are word for word/link for link identical to sample ones?

No one should be worrying about quickhammer here really I think, but at least be warry of where its at. Like no E-2 unless you are fine with it going through.

Pure evil huh

As innocent as the first snow flowers falling on Hokkaido in November.

this also has zero reason about why this change occurs, and he never elaborates on it. i get it, that town will change their opinion, but normally, they provide a reasoning, not just sudden 180.

---

Vote me and then vote vex or bambi either works since it's same pair

once again, he changes his stance from "i care about jingle dyign alongside me" to suddenly "nah i don't care anymore" like make up your mind ffs.

Maybe it's correct and he wants us to murder Rational quickly to get it over with.

Disgusting OGI read that is false, a 'haja I was only kidding' remark to influence others to pile on me. The 'maybe' is a slip of consistently displayed assurance that I am actually Town shown from Bambi towards me.

he doesn't seem to realize that bambi was joking about this, and takes it as if it's entirely serious? like, i know i have a hard time grasping jokes in situations like this, but i felt like that was pretty blatant.

Today is Bingle andyself vs Vex and Bambi do not let them play any sides against each other anymore.

he doesn't even explain how we're playing sides.

This is a game. I want to have fun. Let me meme in peace or I literally just can tunnel you while not talking instead.

Also sup Bingle. Good to see ya.

Go ahead, don't empty threat. I want this to be you vs us.

this post indicates to me that he is dead-set in me/bambi scum, yet never explains the read.

Oh yeah speaking of the word respect... Ration went hard on me for showing mercy? Do you know why Bingle? Like... Explain to me his thought process for me. He'll just yell at me if I ask him.

If you think me and Bingle are scum what use os this post?

If you think Bingle and me are Town this is useful to disarm us as you're trying to create rapport with Bingle after failing to with me.

or, get this, maybe we're trying to ask jingle about you, because you refuse to elaborate on your logic, and because we've said this entire time that we're waiting for jingle to read and catchup before actually doing shit.

If you think Bingle and me are Town this is useful to disarm us as you're trying to create rapport with Bingle after failing to with me.

Both VV and Bambi know better than to try to pocket me.

Arrogance will be our downfall, never underestimate your capacity to be manipulated by someone. Bambi is playing to disarm me via you.

once again, this is never explained.

We aren't friends here, one of our pairs directly wants the others to lose. Stop this act. I don't respect any of you less than any other. You're all trash and all amazing in your own ways, I focus on tells and indication of scum. If I think you're scum, I'll vote a d encourage others to. Idc if I reapect your lover partner like a god, I vote you.

Bambi is trying to seem inquisitive and understanding but if you properly analyse it, it's just positioning the pair of Vex and Bambi perfectly so both lover pairs Ana vs Rational can get voted off.


I have excellent grammar in real life. I rush to type on a smartphone at times here, I also like it as it forces people to read what I'm saying a little harder while deciphering it.

1) why is pushing someone who appears to be scummy wanting the others to lose? isn't that the entire point of mafia? to find the scum and push them? yes, obviously not all town will be perfectly townie, and not all scum will be scummy. but trying to push a scumread isn't gamethrowing like you're equating.
2) i really don't like all the spelling errors, because that means i have to take more time to actually figure out what you're saying. no offense to you, but if i'm spending a significant part of my time while reading the game simply trying to figure out what you're saying, i'm going to want to policy yeet you *just* so i don't have to read your stuff.

Yoy didn't push me, you played the middle and still are. Anastasia pushed me even after I said I was willing to go down, meaning it probably does add up that her read was genuine and she was ready to hard-gamble on it. Also Anastasia's responses were solely designed towards further getting others to scumread me which is Towny tunneling, not scummy tunneling as she knew very well if I flip Town how it looks on her. I also like that she did all this without her lover partner being around or backing her up, it is a very Towny dynamic where the Lover pair are running on independent initatives whereas you and Bambi seem artificially united in all ways.

once again, not reading the fact we're waiting on jingle to show up before i do anything. i also never played the middle, i have very explicitly stated that i thought kerest/ana were town.

i think you're scum. i'm not pushing you because it's way too early for me to do so. i want everyone to post, and weigh in on this before i actually commit to pushing you. i also want to talk to your lover, because talking to you is about as productive as talking to a brick wall.
i will gladly provide a full case on why i think you're scum later in the day after we have more time to discuss things, and when i'm not about to sleep.

You think it now, give the case right now, no time to make shit up or use later information.

he's expecting me to make a full case at 3 a.m. when i have work at 11 a.m. and i stated i was going to sleep. this post is inheriently nai, but it makes me very angry so i'm including it.
this case has been two hours in the making as of writing this. i am not making a full-case like this at 3 a.m.

it's page eight. your lover hasn't chimed in that much.
about half of the players haven't even said anything yet.
please explain to me in what world does me pushing a scumread this early makes any sense.

You don't have any read on me, you're just grasping at straws.

trying to claim i don't have a read on them when poe would dictate that they're scum, and the fact i've stated i think they're scum multiple times already.

Lovers

Town

RM and Bingle (of course)
Anastasia and Kerset

Both have displayed signs of having independent agendas without seeking approval and synergy with the partner within the pairings (lacking live day-chat and wanting badly to scumhunt from the get-go results in this) as well as dedication to voting off a scumread that entails willingness to be voted off first or afterwards.

Scum

Vex Vience and Bambi Jay

Too much to name even,

Generic posts full of fluff to seem Towny, proudly proclaiming oneself to be a passionately mechanical player in a setup that involves almost 0% mechanics... The only time I ask a mechanical question, expresses annoyance at me asking it since it is apparently too easy to decipher from the PM (which left it open to interpretation). This could be Towny on its own however... Since then, played both sides the millisecond it appeared as an opportunity, and operate as a pair throughout.

Bambi appears less sure of who is scum than Vex but both blatantly are playing both sides between the Lover pairs, Vex is only claiming to scumread me because it's convenient to claim and agreed with Anastasia while leaving full blame on Ana for the elimination when and if it occured, Vex also didn't dedicate with a vote despite claiming to have a read on me as scum and still passionately claims to have it with secret reasoning that is too precious to rush to release...

Junk, fluff, obfuscation... You come with what you want as a term, the posts are full of it.

_______________________________________________________________________

Lone/Solo

All three Null but T-bone very strange and forced interaction early on followed by nothing.

Llamafluff has successfully positioned into being an active and therefore blatantly default-towniest player but keeps trying to overplay this position, encouraging the entire game to switch dynamics and focus on the solo vanillas while knowing full well that the other 2 haven't towntold at all (Klick hasn't even posted yet).

Kerset and Klick both must post for us to sufficiently read but at the moment I would say that it's actually more certain of an elimination in the Lovers than the vanillas so I don't get the complaint from Llama, however that is because I know my pair is Town and have a strong read on which of the other two isn't.

once again, i never said i was annoyed at him for this, but he apparently thinks i am. he also never explains his train of thought about how he got there.

tl;dr

- i think rm is scum based on the fact they constantly keep 180ing their opinions, contridict themselves multiple times throughout mulitple posts, and then makes claims like me and bambi being scum, yet never actually backs it up with anything, making it seem like they're just shit out there to see if they can build support for it.

VOTE: rm

When I flip Town, they will eliminate you, I got nothing to fear. Nothing. I have the power here, you're the scared one.

You get me eliminated and the VTs honour my dying read/wish. Simple. I am not budging on this read it's blatant.

[RationalMadman]

Also, there was an extreme towbslip from Anastasia that I didn't initially tead as Towny but after thinking about it, it's the most Towny slip ever.

When Anastasia entered the game she instantly talks as if she mentally thought she'd outed as Lover already. She then proceeds to vote me and justifies it by a Townread on the other Lover pair's Vex. The complete mindlapse where I had to prompt her to realise she hadn't claimed implies she mentally assumed 'duh I am Lover' innher mind while genuinely forming the logic in her initial post that she voted me in.

[RationalMadman]

Townslip*
Read*

[RationalMadman]

I want my IC card and am happy to bet that RM will flip scum here.

if two other people claim lovers, we now have four mechanically confirmed ics due to the nature of the setup. if we have four others claim lovers, we now know there's two scum within the six lovers, and one scum within the remaining three vts, and we can solve from there.

i also propose we solve lovers before we solve vts, just so we have more ics to work with, and so we can remove most of the scum from the game.
ok? ok.

i want my ic card = i am town lover
i literally said if we solve lovers, the remaining lovers are mechanical ics.

What is IC? In character?

[RationalMadman]

for real this time
Jingle why did you refuse to argue Vex? Is it too long or what?

I didn't?

I didn't read the isodive, because why would I. I did ask why Vex thought RM being all over the place was specifically scum indicative as that's what the tl;dr boils down to. He has no consistency and he's flailing about, which I agree is a true statement. The question is why does that make him scum?

I got a lot more consistency than your consistent flipflopping. It is absolutely blatant which pair is Town at this point. If yoy for one second think Vex is Town and Bambi too, then at the very least read the Ana/Ker pair and realise how towny they are.

[RationalMadman]

And yes, I replied to Bingle who is my lover.

[RationalMadman]

Also the vibe I get from like all of RM's posts is that he's trying to cheat his way into getting a cheap townread out of someone
which matches his earlier description of his gameplay being 'be aggressive in this dog-eat-dog world'

I was asked what we discussed in our PT. Bingle will tell you but he claims to have not properly read and just told me not to coach. I said be aggressive or others will pile on us, I knew it and damn I was right.

[RationalMadman]

VOTE: RationalMadman

When me and Bingle flip Town you'll vote Vex after, agreed?