Open 811 - Lovers and Losers (New Game+) [Game Over]

[yessiree]

VC 2.22

With 8 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Bambi Jay (3)

- LlamaFluff, RationalMadman, Anastasia

RationalMadman (3)

- Bingle, Kerset, Bambi Jay

Note voting - VFP, T-Bone

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2021-06-02 16:00:00)

[VFP]

Even Bambi can explain what RM / Ana has done as scum.
I know from you're PoV they are confirmed, but let's ignore the confirmed part for a moment.

[Kerset]

Over those two days Llama did nothing to convince people that they need to vote bambi. All he cared about was to make sure that RM dies before him, even that for him every lover pair was possible bambi teammate. It could be Bambi/Bingle/Kerset or Bambi/Tbone/VFP. Town!llama should be worried that miselim is incoming and needs to make sure that it is bambi, who dies today. What did he do? He spend two days arguing that RM should die before him, because he knows that this is his scummate and his elimination will only move us forward in to the next day.

[VFP]

I read the entire thing differently and it seems more frustration. Even I wasn't understanding it at first until I had to think it over and over.

The problem with your argument here is that Llama is still correct.
Town Llama argues that town do ot lim on him just as much as scum Llama.

The difference is scum Llama has no option but to use this argument, as town Llama thinks of this from experience alone, so it's basically down to a 50/50 with this as the argument alone for me to put Llama as scum.

Thoughts on Llama's day 1, and thoughts of how Bambi has not been concerned all game with.me and T-Bone?

[T-Bone]

Because he fucking wants you dead what do you think I mean.

Point to a time where you disagrees or argued with Llama at all this game.

@T-Bone - if you see what Llama is doing as lying, then so is Bambi here, right?
Bambi has been manipulating this entire argument with the only counter that just isn't true. Llama doesn't want RM / Ana dead.
Either I'm just reading entirely wrong or Bambi is doing what I expect them to be doing here and confusion the argument.

I don't think this is anything. Bambi!town knows Llama is scum.

[Kerset]

Hard to tell, bc for me llama was just laying low during d1. Still point could be made that he never tried to solve lovers, neither d1 or d2.
Bambi was just scummy day 1 XD idk maybe she believes in the power of friendship

[T-Bone]

I don't see how anyone thinks Llama is mafia here.

The only team he could be paired with is Me/RM.

If you look at the interactions between my slot and llama's slot, does it really look like scum theater to anyone?

I am town.

Llama is town.

Let's vote out Bambi and we can talk about which lover pair to eliminate tommorrow.

This is a sudden tune change. Earlier it was 'Llama is scum and no one is listening to me.'

[Bambi Jay]

Hard to tell, bc for me llama was just laying low during d1. Still point could be made that he never tried to solve lovers, neither d1 or d2.
Bambi was just scummy day 1 XD idk maybe she believes in the power of friendship

Friendship solves problems.

Also I just townread Tbone and thought it would be best to have an ultimate townread as well. You heard me before but the winning strategy of find the one townie and kill the rest was my original plan.

Honestly the fact we almost got Ration and Ana from me following before was funny. Honestly, I'll admit this, the main reason I wanted Kerset and Bingle gone first is because Bingle and Kerset probably could've convinced whoever was the other VT (being Smart appearantly) that I was the scumteam with those 2 instead of them being evil.

So yeah. My plan started to get rid of the less townie to me lover pair that was competent enough to get my town pair killed. Then it turned to try and policy Ration.

[Bingle]

Completely unrelated to the game and aimed at the mod, but:

@Mod: since Llama surpassed me in votes for a bit but we're tied again, is he set to die in plurality or is it me since I was at 3 first? That seems like important information to have rn.

In case of ties, the player who reached the most votes

first

will be eliminated

I just noticed this (and it's in the rules so it's how plurality should work in this game) but this is actually not the standard implementation of plurality.

Standard is most recently highest:

If A is at four and B is at three then someone unvotes A, A would be on the chopping block. If A and B are at 2 and someone votes A then someone votes B, A would be on the chopping block.

I'm only bringing this up because I thought I'd explained that in the setup thread before game start, but apparently I hadn't. If you were aware of this but chose to implement plurality the other way that is also fine, I just like being informative.

[T-Bone]

I feel like that confirms RM/Ana as the scum pair though, that's the sad part. I can literally just pull all of Ana's 'Llama is scum and I'm done with this game' quotes and put it beside 1734 where basically nothing has changed except the sudden need for a Bambi elimination.

Meaning the solve is absolutely RM/Ana/Llama I think.

[RationalMadman]

Kerset and Bambi actually distanced perfectly this game, I have been rereading stuff and their interactions are very difficult to scumreead, however Bingle overplayed by outing an early townread on Bambi and since then Bingle and Kerset have dedicated to playing down the middle (until this exact moment when it's not optimal anymore).

I already predicted that because of the crazy play from Bambi, that pair actually had become more likely to be scum with her and I stand by what I've said. I have nothing more to add.

Vote correct or don't, it's your fault either way. You already were voting us wrong Day 1 and now I know it was as town (VFP and Tbone) so it won't surprise me if this repeats.

[VFP]

I don't see how anyone thinks Llama is mafia here.

The only team he could be paired with is Me/RM.

If you look at the interactions between my slot and llama's slot, does it really look like scum theater to anyone?

I am town.

Llama is town.

Let's vote out Bambi and we can talk about which lover pair to eliminate tommorrow.

This is a sudden tune change. Earlier it was 'Llama is scum and no one is listening to me.'

Yeah I agree with that, it's 1 thing to see Bambi as scum because they have to but not to be in disbelieve that Llama still looks scum to players.

I feel like Ana is trying to lay low as well, or am I wrong?

[T-Bone]

I read the entire thing differently and it seems more frustration. Even I wasn't understanding it at first until I had to think it over and over.

The problem with your argument here is that Llama is still correct.
Town Llama argues that town do ot lim on him just as much as scum Llama.

The difference is scum Llama has no option but to use this argument, as town Llama thinks of this from experience alone, so it's basically down to a 50/50 with this as the argument alone for me to put Llama as scum.

Thoughts on Llama's day 1, and thoughts of how Bambi has not been concerned all game with.me and T-Bone?

My argument (and I think Kerset's argument, not to put words in their mouth) is that Llama is going above and beyond simple 'logical arguments' to make sure that no matter what, he isn't eliminated.

He wants everyone to contingent their scumread of him on Ana/RM.

He argues very dishonestly that town!Bambi should vote RM/Ana and not him.

He tried to claim something that Kerset/Bingle didn't do town cleared him. Then he tried to claim falsely something they did do also town cleared him.

Like, these are things that have happened this game. I see the argument for 'Llama is only scum with RM/Ana' that you're making. What I don't see is the argument that there's anything he's done to indicate he's town.

[T-Bone]

Vote: Llama

I'm comfortable going back to this, especially with Ana switching for no reason.

[Bambi Jay]

Are we actually going back now or is this just cuz you haven't noticed we currently switched to Ration to make VFP and Bingle feel better.

[T-Bone]

Also VFP. If Llama can only be scum with RM/Ana, then flipping Llama as scum ends the game, yes?

Whereas if you think RM/Ana can be scum with both of them, then we're just repeating this argument of Bambi vs Llama on Day 3.

[RationalMadman]

Also VFP. If Llama can only be scum with RM/Ana, then flipping Llama as scum ends the game, yes?

Whereas if you think RM/Ana can be scum with both of them, then we're just repeating this argument of Bambi vs Llama on Day 3.

At this point tell me what you want me to say or do. I don't understand why it isn't obvious to you.

Llama is not scum, look at the depth of Llama's posts vs Bambi's, just observe it. Llama has had more logic all game, it's a fact.

[Bambi Jay]

Also VFP. If Llama can only be scum with RM/Ana, then flipping Llama as scum ends the game, yes?

Whereas if you think RM/Ana can be scum with both of them, then we're just repeating this argument of Bambi vs Llama on Day 3.

This is also what me and Kerset have been saying.

Why is 2 people from separate lover pairs and a VT siding with each other if this isn't the entire dang town? There's no "that's the scum trio" like Ration Ana and Llama cuz Kerset and Tbone aren't connected at all.

I know your hesitating VFP but you know Tbone is town and there's plenty of evidence against team Ration now to believe Bingle and Kerset are town. If those 2 agree with me what Llama is doing is scummy... Isn't that enough?

[RationalMadman]

vfp DO NOT VOTE LLAMA

please listen to me please, tell me what you are basing this on Tbone.

[Bingle]

FWIW, I think this entire discussion about the "Vote RM/Ana over Llama" thing is fully NAI. Llama is objectively right, but that doesn't mean he's town or scum for it. I thought TBone was scummy for trying to make the focus about it, right up until Kerset agreed with him and I realized that maybe other people don't see this kind of situation as so easily solved as I do.

My biggest concern with Llama's play is the lack of anything else today. The refusal to attempt to solve in the lovers to give information was sketchy. The Day 1 push for VV that led to me shifting that wagon onto VV when I got cold feet I felt was town. Bambi today is a mild townread by gut, but I was pretty hypertunneled on TBone at that point so I thought it was mechanically Bambi due to pairing with LF. I'm back to a 50/50 in LF/Bambi and my answer is: I'm gonna sheep the conftown.

[RationalMadman]

VFP DO NOT VOTE LLAMA, you literally carried this game by not voting Llama before just tell me the reason you think it's me, tell the full reason

[Bambi Jay]

Also VFP. If Llama can only be scum with RM/Ana, then flipping Llama as scum ends the game, yes?

Whereas if you think RM/Ana can be scum with both of them, then we're just repeating this argument of Bambi vs Llama on Day 3.

At this point tell me what you want me to say or do. I don't understand why it isn't obvious to you.

Llama is not scum, look at the depth of Llama's posts vs Bambi's, just observe it. Llama has had more logic all game, it's a fact.

Scum can use logic. I don't like logic as much. I do like winning and being bold and placing my faith in others. Mafia is a game of TRUST more then logic.

Llama hasn't been doing things in good faith and doesn't feel trustworthy. I have made poor plays on paper because I trusted my townreads and my scumread on you. Logic isn't winning you this game man.

[VFP]

Also VFP. If Llama can only be scum with RM/Ana, then flipping Llama as scum ends the game, yes?

Whereas if you think RM/Ana can be scum with both of them, then we're just repeating this argument of Bambi vs Llama on Day 3.

If we're right we have 4 confirmed town to discuss and an entire game day.
RM/Ana has more of a chance to flip scum than Llama. That's just how it is.

[Bingle]

That post got away from me a bit. I thought it was mechanically Bambi since TBone couldn't be paired with LF is what the second to last sentence should have ended with.

[Kerset]

VFP DO NOT VOTE LLAMA, you literally carried this game by not voting Llama before just tell me the reason you think it's me, tell the full reason

Why are you not saying 'do not vote me'? If you are town then voting you will also end the game.