Mini Normal 2214 || Game Over!

[VFP]

Hello.
I'm out tonight, but I'll look when I get home.

[VFP]

I'm VT.

Where's your crumb, T3?

[VFP]

If T3 has a crumb I'll believe it.

[VFP]

Just look at me johnny interactions from earlier.

I don't see anything other than you saying about on going games?
What am I looking for?

So when I was a Mason with T3, I made it clear some sort of crumb is best and we did this.
T3 also kept a read on me (as I did back). It was a town read that changed into distancing, but there was posting to and about each other.

[VFP]

I assume anya is claiming odd night doc....

qJohnny is town.

Maybe.

[VFP]

the macho masons are worthless utility but the good news my guilty is elsewhere.

VOTE: VFP

So I'm guessing you are just a traitor.

[VFP]

"rolestopper"
as town?
See oska in mini normal 2211. VOTE: mini
Nah.

So with this game it was discussed about the difference with Rolestopper and doc, so this is plausible.

[VFP]

I think we no lim here but be back in a little

Isn't someone highly town read here?
What changes on a no kill either?

[VFP]

Scum wouldn't have a role blocker with 4x macho so let's not pretend that this is a thing from your PoV.

[VFP]

So Rae is confirmed scum (or me, sure).
But as I said it's probably traitor here.

There's also confirmed scum in Rae and the Mason claim at the very least.
Masons having 2 docs regardless if macho is extremely strong.
A role stopper and a cop is not only over whelming for scum to hit right, but this is a lot of town power in a 12p.
Although I suspect a role cop over a roleblocker (since the masons can target the same player) scum would need to be heavily equipped to counter this. I'm not sure what works here with 4 macho claims.
Not to mention a standard rolestopper claim in a mass claim means that the cop gets 3 results unless killed. That makes the roleblocker redundant alone.

[VFP]

So the masons are probably real.
Rolestopper to prevent a rolecop plus protect.

Scum team of 2 with a role cop and just a traitor.
Probably informed somewhere about macho is the game or x machos.

That leaves 2 scum in
Sigmund
shiki
Dwlee
Nero

I'll look at these.

[VFP]

Rolestopper implies roleblocker imo. Rolestopper can protect PRs from the roleblock.

Nah its going to more likely be role cop than roleblocker.
Roleblock doesn't stop the masons for protecting a non macho if they want to stop it.

[VFP]

Not to mention a standard rolestopper claim in a mass claim means that the cop gets 3 results unless killed. That makes the roleblocker redundant alone.

well it's a macho novice cop so can't check day one and can't be protected by rolestopper or doctor

Well they can be protected from action from the rolestopper right? Just not the death.
As I said, if mass claimed and done with the smallest amount of intelligence, then there's going to be 2/3 results before hand.

[VFP]

I think its just Nero Dwlee and Rae.
I'm not sure Rae puts Sigmund into possible lim range as buddies today. I also think they just want to get town onside and that's the reason for the town pile.

VOTE: Rae

We can lim Rae today and follow this, even though I'm suspecting strongly suspecting traitor.
But the lim shouldn't be outside of me and Rae and shouldn't be a no lim.

[VFP]

so it just leaves us in the same position right? needing to decide if rae is truthful or not?

Of course.
You can go for which either, but the approach to it today was pretty staged and it looked like Dwlee was trying to tell the traitor to go for the fake guilty.
Personally from my PoV this game is set.

[VFP]

You can go for which either, but the approach to it today was pretty staged and it looked like Dwlee was trying to tell the traitor to go for the fake guilty.

why do you think there is a traitor?

12p, no investigation role, makes the most sense.

[VFP]

Honestly if you're town and think I'm evil get that out of your head because there is zero way I kill the two people in the game who say they think I'm town. Gamma called me obvtown and Anya said she believes I wouldn't drive Gamma into the desert and you think I killed them over the obviously softing masons? You're insane.

I guess I'm insane then.
Or maybe I'm actually scum.

[VFP]

In fact I might put a vote on both Nero and Dwlee to show theres scum in me or them (or both) as well.

[VFP]

Okay, so new plan.
No lim.
Someone dies. Most likely a Mason since they are irrelevant as proven town.
I narrow the scum pool to me, Nero, Dwlee, and Rae.

Easy pickings.

[VFP]

Actually I think we can prove this today.
Nero and Dwlee vote me, this will confirm that scum is either me plus 2 others (including these 3) or this is the scum team.

VOTE: VFP

[VFP]

Surely me scum wouldn't be giving up here but going for LAMIST?
while town me is geniune.

[VFP]

I know we talked about game throwing earlier but if VFP is actually town this is actually game throwing.

The only way this is game throwing is if the scum team is exactly Rae, Sig and Shiki.
From your PoV you know that Rae or me are scum. You think both, right? So your vote with Nero's shouldn't be an issue to put me to E1?

So unless you doubt that I'm actually scum here and town read Nero, what's the issue?

[VFP]

Think of it this way... the scum team is confirmed to me.
If I then convince a lim on Rae and they flip traitor, I'm confirmed, as a traitor claiming a guilty on a scum mate is actually throwing.
We then auto win because my PoV has the scum team.

If I'm scum, then it doesn't matter anyway and still benefits town.

[VFP]

If I was 100% certain you were scum I'd vote you. I'm not. It's MELO, I don't drop easy votes in these game states.

But.youre 100% sure scum is in me or Rae, correct?

Tell me, do you believe that from your PoV the scum team is possibly Rae, Shiki, and Sig?
Because that's the only scum team town you can see as a loss by voting me.

[VFP]

Couldn't it be Nero, Rae, and Sig?

Not from my PoV.
But actually it could be for you.

Do you think that?

[VFP]

Think of it this way... the scum team is confirmed to me.

to you it is

rae

+

one of {sigmund, dwlee, nero cain}

right? so how does this narrow anything further than it already is,

No, to me it's just Dwlee and Nero with Rae.
Rae never puts Sig into lim range here. It's a mis lim and lose. Scum Rae has 1 mis lim to aim for so adding the scum buddies in the middle keeps focus away from there.

I'm pretty confident here that I won't be hammered at E1 with Nero and Dwlee.
There's a good chance I'm scum here so town Nero and Dwlee should favour this unless they want to claim a town read on the other...

[VFP]

Why not from yours...?

Because Sig is the back up plan.
Obviously I'm going to say I'm town here here and that Rae is scum regardless if I'm town or scum.

So with this gambit, Rae wants to end the day today.

[VFP]

It's just DW, VFP and Sig is all.

POE is a bitch

Then vote me.

[VFP]

do you think that rae would have claimed macho simply because of minimegabyte's flip then? or possibly the role cop you suggested earlier?

I don't know the reason to the claim. Maybe to try and make it believable as to 4 macho roles.
But I know that the claim is false.

[VFP]

Vfp if you're town I'm reporting you for game throwing btw.

I think you're just worried here because it confirms the scum team to me.

[VFP]

Why are you treating me as more likely town here than scum?

[VFP]

If Nero is town and you're town game is already over. Shiki has won our hearts and minds.

Isn't the game over anyway if Shiki is scum?
If Shiki Sig and Rae were the actual scum team, then don't I get limmed regardless?

[VFP]

Nero and you town implies shiki sig rae scum. They're equivalent.

Do you think Nero is town?

[VFP]

Nero is this going to come down to who can towntell harder in 2 days?

Nero and you town implies shiki sig rae scum. They're equivalent.

Do you think Nero is town?

No

So explain to me how I am game throwing if 2 scum are voting me?

[VFP]

Even without a Dwlee vote here, Nero and Rae are confirmed scum to me with no hammer.
As I said, a traitor flip confirms me, regardless how you like to play it, a scum team flip doesn't confirm me.

[VFP]

I'm cleared to town with a brain I think. I don't kill Gamma I don't kill Anya.

Okay? I don't think scum me kills Anya there.
What's the argument here?

[VFP]

VFP you're treating my reads like I know everyone's alignment or something.

your scum, ofc u do

This scene brings a tear to my eyes every time.
I'd nominate.

[VFP]

Even without a Dwlee vote here, Nero and Rae are confirmed scum to me with no hammer.
As I said, a traitor flip confirms me, regardless how you like to play it, a scum team flip doesn't confirm me.

Buddy, you're two votes from hammer. Even fypov you can't confirm Nero!scum.

Yes I can.
3 scum. 2 people voting me.
If either are town then I get hammered. Rae I already know is scum.

[VFP]

I'm cleared to town with a brain I think. I don't kill Gamma I don't kill Anya.

Okay? I don't think scum me kills Anya there.
What's the argument here?

Anya wanted to kill your slot wtf are you talking about you don't kill Anya.

I kill for roles not threat.
As I said, what's your argument?

Do you not kill someone because they are town reading you, or do you kill to use the "they wanted you dead" card?

[VFP]

Oh right okay I guess if you're town you know Nero is evil.

Exactly.
Once I know the full scum team it's pretty easy from there.
And a traitor flip = scum surrender.

Or I'm just scum.

[VFP]

This could make sense if it was isolated to just Anya, but I don't kill Gamma there.

Well I've only read a few ISOs so far so I can't comment on Gamma.

[VFP]

I have the scum team shaking here.

[VFP]

I mean, I give credit to the theatre, but I'm not convinced.

[VFP]

you've got me there actually but maybe they just didn't know or care as vfp repped in over night.

One person says I kill Anya because I replaced in and didn't read.
Another says that I kill Anya because I was a scum read to Anya.

Who knows. Maybe I just have a personal hate for Anya? *clenches fist*

[VFP]

lol @ posting a game from 4-5 years ago.

Lol @ scum theatre

[VFP]

I'm going to bed.
Let's see how right I am with this in the morning.

[VFP]

UNVOTE: VFP

[VFP]

So Dwlee is actually confirmed town.
The fact the game didn't end already means Rae and Nero are 100% scum here.

[VFP]

So it's basically a 50/50 on the 3rd right now unless 1 is just a traitor.

[VFP]

I mean, I'll lim Nero or Rae myself.
But I think the right play for town is to always lim in me or Rae.

I don't think you understand here how powerful 2 masons having macho doc is.
Even if you want to believe there is roleblocker instead of a roelcop then add it to your argument. The Rolestopper gets stronger with each town PR.
Do you honestly think that the game is balanced with that?

The only reason Novice was added to the role is because Rae didn't want to have to give any other results.

[VFP]

The more results the muddier it can get on questions.
Scum want to give as little as possible.

Ask yourself, why did Rae not check Nero?

[VFP]

I havent finished reading yet, but is Shiki a scum read to Rae day 1?

[VFP]

I couldn't see it day 1 and just looks like a town read.

Although, I will say the amount of scum comments to Sigmund to only vote once then instantly change vote isn't a good look on Sigmund.

[VFP]

Well going by his ISO, Human/Nero and Sig appear to be his favoured scum.

[VFP]

Let me give you a hint here.
Giving a town read on either 1 is pointless here, and giving a scum read on either 1... well that's just not happening if Sig is also scum.

Read over the interaction Rae has about Sig the entire time. That's not from someone who believes it.

[VFP]

the fact vfp boldface lied about me being able to get three results is not only factually incorrect but laughable. i just happened to get lucky.

How is it a lie?
Mass claim day 2 without including the macho part from you or the rolestopper.
That means scum have to kill both masons and the role stopper before targeting you.

Thats 3 kills, 3 results.
Even with a role blocker.

It takes half a brain to do.

[VFP]

Here's a counter to the Novice.
What use is rolestopper night 1 if you believe there is a role blocker?
If masons want to ensure someone is protected, both target.
The Rolestopper is redundant night 1 with a Novice.

If you say that scum have a rolecop instead of a roleblocker you can argue it more.
So for town Rae it favours rolecop over roleblocker, correct?

I'll also point again to how powerful masons with two macho docs really are. Add another confirmed protective, plus a "novice" cop. You then have that fine line in 12p where 2 scum having powers still don't match up, yet 3 takes it over the edge.
Even more so if there's no traitor.

[VFP]

Let's also clarify, regardless of my align the self vote had nothing to do with AtE but was 100% tactical.

Either I'm scum looking for LAMIST and trying to muddy who my buddy is, or I'm town who has 2 confirmed scum from that play.

@T3

get your shit together when you come back in here, we both know this isn't what scum me does.

[VFP]

The problem is with your theory is, I subbed into Elo.
There's going to be lack of frustration here for me as either alignment.

My goal as scum here is just to distract who my team really are, as we pop off all 4 machos (or 3 if it's scum theatre)

Town me has 2 scum.

[VFP]

Ouch!

[VFP]

The only other 1 I have been in since coming back is

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86587

This was 12p with a traitor.

[VFP]

You can't rule out that scum me could also mean scum Rae.

In fact, the only 2 that are clear from being my scum buddies would be the masons in that situation. Because that's mechanically cleared.
Town me is Rare / Nero + you or Sig.

[VFP]

Ah okay, I didn't understand that part originally.
Then yes, I agree since I'd lim Sig over you as it currently stands.

[VFP]

wait unvote need to think about no elimination again

Even with a Dwlee vote it's only E2 with just 1 scum off the wagon.

[VFP]

Also, a no lim is going to be worthless here.
Tactically scum just no kill, or just kill a mason.

[VFP]

Also, a no lim is going to be worthless here.
Tactically scum just no kill, or just kill a mason.

sure but rae potentially gets an extra check in {dwlee, nero cain, sigmund}, and there isn't any downside right, like i know from your point of view rae is mafia so sure worthless to you, but, hm, interesting to me why rae was so opposed to this earlier even if he thinks he is unlikely to get another result

From a town view, sure.
I guess Rae has to go with the roleblocker or not stance then as well.

[VFP]

That almost sounds pretty good.

[VFP]

I think that's the part that Dwlee is missing.
Me scum getting the lim is Rae dead 100% as town.

[VFP]

You get told if Rae is claiming roleblocker or not.
If town Rae claims to not be blocked then it shows scum me has inside knowledge at the very least.

[VFP]

Pointing out others PoV is not scum claiming.

[VFP]

I'm down to lim Nero first.

[VFP]

For obvious reasons onto of being scum.

[VFP]

Go on Dwlee. End this misery.

[VFP]

What PRs did scum have?

I still think town underestimated how strong masons with protect powers are, even if Macho.
A cop on top is just insanely town sided.

I didn't want to argue it in the game, as the fake guilty on me would make my counter argument just meh. However, Rae coming into the day with a meta argument that they don't fake claims, while having no meta to back it up should have been a scum sign. I was expecting someone to pick up on it, as again, if it was me saying it, it would have just been discredited.
Rae also made it pretty obvious to be appealing to the town read players, and this isn't just because I knew it was a lie, it's something I would have picked up on even if Dwlee was the fake guilty.

I'll also explain my thought process to self voting since 2 players wanted to play it off as game throwing.
I had a guilty claim on me and I was confident that the masons where town unless we only had 1 PR, and that Shiki was just an appeal from Rae, making them most likely town.
Even if Shiki was scum, the influence would mean I'm the lim 100%.
There had to be scum in Dwlee and Nero although I suspect both. Town want to be more cautious in this situation and Nero showed his scum side with the vote, and that's why I felt comtable going to bed without unvoting as 2 scum were on me.
It was either I get limmed or get the scum team (which it did). I'm not one to promote this kind of play on Elo as a standard but replacing in at Elo with no scum flips to work with and just a fake guilty on me, I had to attempt to work out the team with the least threat of losing the game.
I was then going to go through with looking into the scum and their ISO to help suggest why I should be believed, but after Dwlee and T3 made up their minds before I had a chance to do this I knew it would have been wasted effort and decided against this.

TLDR - I had low risk to be scum hammered here with the information that I personally knew.

Thanks for subbing me in, and thanks for the game all.

[VFP]

VFP I think you should have made the arguments if you felt like no one was noticing the points. It's better you say it than no one at all, and towards the end I really just got the impression you were flailing/trying to throw the thread into disarray with all your "I could be town... Or scum" it just felt really awkward.

Yeah maybe so. It normally works out worse when I try to explain in game for me.
As town I give the facts rather than a push there. Again, I can back this up as meta and show where when in games but self meta is just really meh and I try to keep it to a minimal.
My point wasn't so much there's a real chance I'm scum, but more of what you're
PoV on me is. I can see how it comes across but I was more surprised that T3 didn't town read me considering I feel they know the obvious parts from my town to scum game.

Also, I'm not taking anything away from me helping in this loss. I'm still trying to get better at explaining my stances or giving better reasoning to scum as a whole.
You can catch the scum team, but it means nothing if you can't get them voted up.

[VFP]

That makes sense, i did say you probably knew that there were Machos.
I was actually expecting a rolecop though, so I guess even more credit to scum for a clean win here with what town had.

:pedit: I guess the boss just wasn't happy with putting your fingers in his personal cookie jar!

[VFP]

I wouldn't even lock on a hammer.
I just want people to talk to! :<