[MT2225] Chrono Trigger Chronicles - The Rise/Fall of Yakra

[Roden]

Like, I don't think it's Titus but I also don't think deep wolves should have priority over a meta read.

[Roden]

Mod is probably preparing the flavor flip.

[Roden]

So it's a deep wolf. Fun.

[Roden]

I've been deep diving Guillo's ISO since I think that'd give me the most information, tbh it's interesting to read what was a good scum game cut short. He hard bussed Robert Day 2, idk if he'd bus his other buddy as well though so I'm looking at his town reads.

[Roden]

Guillo tried to make me paranoid of AW and pressure her into voting either Robert or Dwlee. Robert kept pushing both Robert and Dwlee but kept trying to get Dwlee voted out first. The scummy intent here seems to be to manipulate everyone into voting Dwlee, shade AW for being hedgy, and make me tunnel AW for looking scummy. I think this just rules both of them out as deep wolves since Dwlee was the mis-elim bait and Guillo was trying to influence AW and shade her if she didn't do what he said.

[Roden]

Then case me and vote me out. I'd love for both you and AW to have egg on your face if you both really are town.

This is a town emotion.

Unrelated but it's hilarious that two different scum fell for this. I wanna check who else town read my meltdown now.

[Roden]

Wait why the hell was T3 Frog fishing if he didn't even need to know who it was to activate the Vig?

[Roden]

Can anyone help me get a read on mastina? Her posts read like a personal diary.

Well may as well, given I've given reads and don't have much to add to them since the game's technically out of the rvs but still feels like it's in the rvs in spite of being out so there's not a lot to have in terms of read progression.

Strongly North of Null:

House
Titus
Gamma Emerald
Angel Warriors
T3

North of Null:

Roden

Null:

Lukewarm (above the not-posters)
Marashu
Child of Fairies
Robert M Hunter (below the not-posters)

South of Null:

Guillotina

Strongly South of Null:

ssbm_Kyouko

I've not been able to get anything more refined than this though.

I don't think it makes sense for Mastina to null and scum read both her partners. Especially not Guillo who was clearly meant to infiltrate the town block and try to power wolf the game.

Has anyone else seen her scum games? If her playstyle this game doesn't match her scum games I think we can town bin her too.

[Roden]

Tbf we've only been rushing through elims because scum quick hammered Day 1, and two people immediately scum claimed the following days afterward.

[Roden]

I don't trust Luke. We have a deep wolf and ISO diving the scum slots isn't giving me definite clears.

Mastina please just pick somebody to claim next. That choice matters in regards to trying to read you.

[Roden]

You don't trust Luke despite the fact that he bused Cyrus for literally no reason if scum?

I mean, that also rules out Dwlee and Marashu then since they both pushed Cyrus. You're town reading Mastina and myself. That just leaves you and House but I don't think it's either of you due to Guillo interactions and because House 100% would've made Robert and Cyrus come up with better flavor claims.

We're in a really tough spot and I don't think it's wise to trust anyone unless we figure out a hard clear.

[Roden]

I think Dwlee99 feels overshadowed by me and see they have no chance of getting thread control with us townleaders still alive and his entrance into the thread looks as TMI and a forced way to try to look town.

VOTE: Dwlee99

Nora, vote with me, let's kill Dwlee

Dwlee isn't confirmed town just because of the DROO vote btw. I don't see why scum outs the fact they have an extra vote just to put Dwlee at E-3. It looks more like they're trying to scare people off their wagon.

I think so too. I think that Droo vote on Dwlee could be scum WIFOM, to make us think “ooooh, that sneaky vote on Dwlee, they gotta be town”.

Amateurs.

VOTE: Guillo
Okay I guess I'm kind of bored with Roden anyway so I'm fine seeing where this goes.

Lately I find that I can get behind this.

VOTE: Guillotina

Oh look at them. Dwlee and Robert who could not vote each other out of “solidarity” are now voting against me.

You guys are outing you know?

Towncore: Roden - Angels - T3 - House

Town lean: Marashu, Lukewarm

Null: Titus, Mastina, Gamma

Scum: Dwlee, Robert

I still want to kill Dwlee, let’s kill Dwlee they are scum, then we kill Robert. Or viceversa.

Cooperate with me then i might consider your suggestions.

I want a pelt today. Let’s kill in my PoE

VOTE: Dwlee99

Or

VOTE: Robert

Choose

People may not agree atm but we have really strong reasons to support each one and will case them if needed but dont touch them before asking for the case cuz they town af

If Robert flips scum we killing Dwlee back to back, then Gamma, i need to see my suspicion about the Droo vote cleared.

I think droo stole gamma's vote and it's a scum night action.

I'm not gonna lie this looks like TMI, this and your entrance. Or you are better at figuring out mechanics than i am.

If Gamma’s vote has been in fact stolen, im locking him town.

VOTE: Dwlee99

Well this is completely incongruent

What is incongruent? Have i ever said that i dont scum read you?

Gamma having his vote stolen = lock town

Droo voting me = scum WIFOM

Fixing my last post

Third time is the charm?

Ok. What is incongruent about it?

If Gamna’s vote was stolen last night, he is lock town for having his vote stolen, that is definitely a scum ability.

This same scum ability could very well place that vote on anyone, including their own to WIFOM us into changing our reads. By the way the Droo vote has been used, it tells me that most likely the votes on you and Robert are WIFOM and that you both are scum, because there is no way scum are so incompetent to waste such a powerful action and not secretly hammer a target at L-1 and instead vote you guys the way they did.

The other option is they are doing it to feed my paranoia of you and Robert, but again, why waste that action to fool just me.

I dont buy it. I need you dead to find out.

Why do you think scum couldn't target their own with the vote stealing ability? The same logic applies to both scenarios, but you're being selective about it because you want to push a lim on me.

Why would scum want to steal their own vote when they can steal it from town? Im sorry but that question is dumb.

Why would scum want to steal their own vote when they can steal it from town? Im sorry but that question is dumb.

For this exact reason possibly? Now I have a townread on Gamma, so I don't think it has happened here, but that you didn't think about it makes me think you're not seriously trying to sort people. You're being performative.

Yah Dwlee is scum for sure. I would shoot you right now if I could.

I dont know in what language i can speak to you for you to understand, it’s like you are purposely ignoring the difference between night action dynamics and day action dynamics.

Let’s see.

Scum need to secure mischops right? Stealing the vote to use it as your own increases those chances. Why would scum steal their own vote instead of stealing one from town to accomplish that goal, why steal it from scum when there is risk of being watched or detected by someone else and get called for it? What is the reward for it? Instead of just run the same risk but stealing it from town and have one extra vote they can use. No! I dont buy that shit.

It is different with you because they can manipulate our reads with the Droo vote placement. Maybe im giving too much credit to scum and maybe they are a bunch of amateurs with no idea of what they are doing and are spewing you and Robert town with it, if that’s the case, good for us, but we still have to find out and chop one of you, and you wanting the same lock town read that Gamma is getting for having his vote STOLEN as opposed to you having the Droo vote on you is… unrealistic and dumb, sorry not sorry.

Hey Guillotina, why do you act like me and Robert have to have the same alignment because Droo targeted both of us with the vote? How does knowing mine or Robert's alignment inform the other cause of that? Couldn't they have targeted scum with the second vote for WIFOM? This is huge TMI right now.

You just speak BS after BS. My read on both of you formed before the Droo. I tested both of you to see if you’d voted to yeet the other and you avoided it and before that i had scumread both of you individually. It’s all in my ISO, you cant fool anyone. I firmly believe that the Droo vote on you was a gambit to try to make us second guess our read on you, I’ve played this game for several years, ive done and seen those tricks before, although when i do those gambits i actually make town kill each other not make town laugh at me like in this game. I laugh at these wolves, you can’t even Nk a target dude and you trying to WIFOM us?

I’ll coach you guys to become better wolves after game, for free, just so you dont say im arrogant.

---

After reading all these posts, it's hard for me to think Guillo was hard bussing both of his team mates. I just don't see the benefit of that. I don't think Dwlee is scum here unless someone wants to make an argument that this was all just scum theatre all along.

[Roden]

Well Frog didn't speak up then, because I'm also VT. Probably for the best because they just die tonight anyway if they out themselves.

[Roden]

We're not getting anywhere. If it was up to me I'd just turbo elim Mastina and then Luke if Mastina is wrong. Mastina has game knowledge and theoretically should've been able to give Robert and Cyrus better flavor claims, but she admitted we've been moving the game along too fast for her to keep up, so she just might not have had the time to help her scum buddies.

The one thing that bugs me most is why Cyrus gave up so easily. I don't understand why he just admitted he was scum instead of fighting to the end, we weren't even planning on voting him out yesterday despite how suspicious he looked but he still scum claimed anyway when pushed to better detail his flavor. If anyone else has played with him, can you explain if Cyrus is one to easily give up like that? Because if not, I think it just means he was bussed and it can't be Mastina.

PE: Well ok then lol, we got content the moment I complained we weren't getting anything.

[Roden]

Can I get a link to that game?

[Roden]

Hmm...Cyrus barely even interacted with his scum buddies there. His play seemed largely the same as here though.

[Roden]

VOTE: Mastina

I think Guillo was working triple duty to try to control the game. Robert was scum read from the start and everyone still left in the game at this moment besides Mastina all could have done something to help him power wolf, either through helping build narratives or discussing flavor claims. We 100% know for a fact that Robert had no help in finding a half-decent flavor claim, to the point that I recognized the post he made about Spekkio came from one of the fan wikis (Robert even took the info from the wiki I linked earlier in the game). Guillo admitted he had close to no knowledge about Chrono Trigger too, so it all implies that the entirety of the scum team had zero info to work with.

Dwlee technically would be a candidate for being the third scum with no knowledge of the flavor, but not only did he help get out Cyrus, if he's scum then Guillo was hard bussing both of his team mates which...yeah, that's just awful play and I'm pretty sure he's better than that. Because if he did manage to push out both his team mates then there's just no fucking way he reasonably makes it to ELo without getting NK'd. Dwlee also tried to 1v1 me at the point Guillo was hard pushing him, which is just hard to believe they'd think was a good play if scum when I was being begrudgingly town read by almost everyone at the time.

AFAIK nobody else is ignorant about Chrono Trigger knowledge, nor would they be incompetent enough to let Robert and Cyrus keep making bad flavor claims and then scum claim.

My best guess is that Mastina could've helped with all of that, but was unfortunately absent/the game progressed too quickly for her to be of much help. Scum flailed all game and I'm feeling confident it was because it wasn't always a full team effort.

[Roden]

Do we have a majority agreement that Mastina goes first?

[Roden]

Oh thank god I didn't throw, that's all I can ask for.

GG everyone! I feel kinda bad that we broke the game a bit with flavor but man...those fake claims just weren't it. Nice job to Dwlee though for softing as hard as they did and still never getting caught.

[Roden]

Hey Roden, I was town. Your Meta was bad

Yeah yeah I know lol, tbf I moved past that awhile ago but yeah, my meta reads weren't good. What stuck out to me was that you wanted me gone as a policy elim but then you back tracked and town leaned me when I confronted you on it. It felt like an odd string of reactions, like you were trying to protect a scum buddy from getting wagon'd since there were a few popular choices, but then got wary because you realized I self voted for a legitimate reason.

At the end you were only at the bottom of my town reads because everyone else was too townie to me. Guillo's ISO confused me because I legitimately could not figure out who the third scum by association was for the longest time and you just fit the bill closer than everyone else, until I considered Mastina at least.

[Roden]

Btw Nora, a good 80% of my volatility with you/scum read was fabricated to see if you'd react the same, plus I figured you'd likely scum read me if I uncharacteristically played nice. I did think you were scummy towards the end of Day 1, but by Day 2 I actually thought you were town hy association with House, and your interactions with Guillo kinda hard cleared you afterward as well since he kept trying to convince you to do what he wanted.

The bit that was definitely real was when I got mad about the nuance thing, it just felt unnecessary I guess. I do apologize for getting mad but that part legitimately got under my skin.

[Roden]

Oh thank god I didn't throw, that's all I can ask for.

GG everyone! I feel kinda bad that we broke the game a bit with flavor but man...those fake claims just weren't it. Nice job to Dwlee though for softing as hard as they did and still never getting caught.

He did some decent "I'm definitely not frog" posting as well lol

I have a guess for who it is I think

Unrelated
UNVOTE:

True, I thought Frog was AW at the end but I guess that was a fake crumb now to draw the NK.

Btw @Dwlee, how did you know to protect T3 on N1?

[Roden]

What stuck out to me was that

you wanted me gone as a policy elim

but then you back tracked and town leaned me when I confronted you on it. It felt like an odd string of reactions, like you were trying to protect a scum buddy from getting wagon'd since there were a few popular choices, but then got wary because

you realized I self voted for a legitimate reason

.

I never wanted you as a policy elim. I wanted you to stop self voting.

So he is either a townie who should be policy voted for not playing to win, or he is scum trying to make a play.

Either way, I am happy to vote him as long as his self vote is in place

.

I had you as a town read day 1. Day 2, I thought that you had been a bit worse, so pushed you down closer to null. (Then I policy voted you). Then you push on me looked like shit, and I started entertaining the idea that you really were scum. Then when I did meta on you, it put you back to town.

The second bolded part never happened. I am still frustrated that you self voted, and this line in particular pissed me off

Nora I'd literally rather spite you and get us both voted out if you're going to go out of your way to throw this game for town. I want to go to the dead PT, see your confirmed alignment, and laugh as you crumble Day 3.

A policy vote kinda heavily implies a policy elim, and I think if you had tried to explain it that way in-game I might've actually tunneled you for it. Though tbh if you'd articulated your emotional response I would've likely town read you for it instead.

[Roden]

I guess the thing that actually confused me this game, was that you and house seemed to not reconsider prior thoughts given new information.

House was suspicious that I pitted his claim against Roberts claim. Which, sure. Be suspicious of that PRE flip. But once Robert flipped scum, that stops making sense for scum!Luke to do. Linking him there actually just means I am spewing House town.

You were both suspicious that I "asked for cred" on T3 (which was meant to be a joke btw) but then did not come back once T3 flipped town, and think wait. Scum luke would not have done that.

Also, scum luke is never going to be out actively asking for cred. Instead, I would be subtle and Agree with House's push, and link back my own stuff, and then vote T3. Show that I spotted it, instead of ASKING house for it lmao

Like I said, once we got to seven players it just became a point of who looked the least townie in a group of people who looked really town. It wasn't that I wasn't reconsidering prior information, to me it was "how do we have a group of people so blatantly town?", but then the answer was just that one person never had a chance to look scummy.

Like, if it wasn't Mastina, who should we think it is? You can argue you don't make those plays as scum, but neither does everyone else.

[Roden]

80% of my volatility with you

ehhh stop right there. thats a horrible way to read people. i would have policy elimmed you there as well and that is what poking people with big sticks typically leads to anyways.

This is kinda exactly why I had to play it that way. You made it really hard for me to try to scum hunt and solve because you kept loudly and aggressively discrediting me whenever you weren't town reading me. I correctly deduced that Kyouko vs Guillo was TvS and was a fake interaction (Guillo was scum and Kyouko admitted she faked parts of her interaction). And I was right in saying you and Kyouko vs me was likely TvT because both of you were acting too aggressive and shortsighted to actually be scum. But then you hard defended Guillo, got Kyouko mis-elim'd, and said I had to be scum because I was playing with too much nuance to be town.

Like, what exactly am I supposed to do in this situation if I can't get town read by you through normal means? Your influence alone didn't get me widely scum read of course, but it absolutely did not help. I had to play into my "meta" to get you to back off before both of us derailed the game. You don't have to like it, but if I have to play up being unpleasant to get town read then I'm going to be as unpleasant as I possibly can be. Once you backed off you can clearly see I was no longer on chopping block, so I stopped and just went back to solving.

So yes, I'm sorry I was unpleasant. But I genuinely believed I didn't have a choice if I wanted to avoid getting mis-elim'd and have a chance to actually find scum.

[Roden]

Hopefully that explains some things for Luke as well.

Also, /pre-in.

[Roden]

And to be clear. If you post anything similar to that post in a future game, I will vote you for it all over again.

I wouldn't, if only because it was situational to begin with, and it wouldn't work if it was expected anyway.