Mini Normal 2223 | Town Wins!

[ssbm_Kyouko]

The town games of his I've read though seem different than this one. Like he's trying in them. Here he isn't trying until toDay.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

But hes finally a wagon, I think in most of the games I read he was a D1 elim, so he had to try early so he could get thoughts out before dying

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I just dont know if he does the same as scum because I haven't found a scumgame yet

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I may have actually found something in N_M meta, fiNlly found a scum game. will have to go back to town games and look for it there too though

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Yeah only took a couple of towngames to find it's present there as well. I didnt really expect it to not be there.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I don't care about meta. Dwlee has done nothing this game. When pressured he continues to do nothing. It's egg time

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Damn I felt scummy typing that and I'm town. As an exercise in experiencing what it feels like to be dwlee (scum) rn I'd advise you all to try the same

[ssbm_Kyouko]

And then vote dwlee

[ssbm_Kyouko]

It's a joke about the time I mistakenly thought shrek was crumbing mason with dwlee in a scumgame of mine. Dwlee said why "me = fry me" and voted shrek (i thought "like an egg, and literally fry me meaning fry me, I am an egg")

Then shrek showed up and said "I leave all my possessions to greg the egg", and my dumb ass thought Dwle

e99

was the egg, where the 9s were g's

Then dwlee unvoted. And shrek had been absent and beetlejuiced into the thread when dwlee was like "petition to turboelim shrek". It definitely looked like a mason crumb.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Basically N_M is a miltank and if you were to cook a miltank you'd get steak, and Dwlee is an egg so if you cook an egg you get an egg

[ssbm_Kyouko]

And then T3 neighborized Dwlee that night after the crumb, and we had a Traffic Analyst, so I had tris, our TA, check Dwlee the same night, and it came back that he could communicate so that reinforced to me that dwlee was a mason.

That game was a fiasco lmao

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Hmm, short answer is no, I wouldn't

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Salsabil would be with Dwlee, or if there is an unclaimed vig, then n_m would be

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I asked you if you'd stake the game on it because it feels like the way that you (and dwlee?) are saying that I want to eliminate anyone

but

N_M feels like one of you knows he will flip scum, and I thought if that someone was you that I might bait you into saying you would.

Pedit: I just played a large normal with dwlee with a similar ratio of conftown

[ssbm_Kyouko]

But to be fair, the vig in that game was a combined babysitter vigilante and the scumteam had a babysitter enabler. So they can only confirm the vig if town eliminates the enabler first. But town did have a 2-shot voyeur that may have been able to confirm the combined BS Vig if they or the bsvig didnt get JKed.

My point is, a vigilante in this setup is definitely possible, especially if scum have something like an ungated rolestopper or roleblocker which could stop the friendly neighbor from confirming themselves

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Without knowing scum's power we have no way of knowing what is balanced

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I find it very unlikely we're up against 3 goons. That seems boring, and I feel like T3, or any mod really, wouldn't create a setup that boring. Maybe some townie is macho to weaken the town babysitter?

Doesnt really do any good to speculate, I expect something will come out toMorrow.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Or maybe maf has a strongman to shoot through the BS protection, so the BS actually swings the game toward Mafia if it ever claims and they can try to shoot the BS on a night they expect it to target town

Also if there is a vig in game I was thinking it would be geraintm or Manatee having multiple roles.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If we dont reach majority today we end up on odds toMorrow. Geraintm/manatee, if either of you have a vig shot, lmk, otherwise I'm probably not going to hammer

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I asked you if you'd stake the game on it because it feels like the way that you (and dwlee?) are saying that I want to eliminate anyone

but

N_M feels like one of you knows he will flip scum, and I thought if that someone was you that I might bait you into saying you would.

Pedit: I just played a large normal with dwlee with a similar ratio of conftown

It certainly feels like you have had a pattern of anyone but Not Mafia today. You’ve ignored G’s case on Not Mafia, flooded the thread with long wall posts with multiple other suspects. As I have stated Not Mafia is a literal troll player to me. I worry about him if he’s ever pro town.

I think furthermore if you genuinely believed that you’d be taking the free scum then hunting in me+Dwlee the next day.

The fact you’re not and saying no means something here.

Pedit: It’s possible scum have a PR of some kind which is why I delayed an answer hoping they would but I doubt it. The roleblocker/stopper would have to be on Manatee every night. While it is possible if you give scum more power, if someone claims vig without using it I would probably vote the vig for not shooting Not Mafia here.

It can’t be you because you would just vig if you didn’t get your way, you’re fighting too hard.

It can’t be me because I am not a vig.

So the only options at that point are Dwlee Salsa Not Mafia and Marci for a vig.
Unlikely Not Mafia because of play and just he doesn’t seem to care
So you’re down to two people you potentially see as a team together and Marci.

Odds are no vig exists.

Not sure why you're saying I'm ignoring geraintm's case on N_M, when I have acknowledged it already:

Assuming you are town, can you not see what Salsa is doing today? Why would you want N_M over Salsa? In fact, for anyone who is voting N_M (geraintm I've seen your reasoning but feel free to add more regarding Salsa if you like), why do you want to eliminate N_M more than anyone else?

I do flood the thread with cases more and more the later a game gets generally, it helps me figure things out the more I talk about them, and it usually keeps scum from shooting me because I demonstrate indecision.

If I'm wrong and one of you is not bussing N_M right now, then I'd be eliminating town 2 days straight and I dont want to eliminate rashly again considering I was wrong on Max.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

N_M is not a liability. MathBlade is fearmongering around him. He cannot lolhammer anyone in MELO if we dont vote prematurely.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Looks like geraintm is normally active before deadline. Would Dwlee, Math, and Manatee vote Salsa with me and he can hammer in the morning?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I am not comfortable making a snap decision like that while civ game is starting.

It felt like you ignored G’s case Kyo.

I don’t townread Salsa if the votes went that way so I would hammer.

It also felt to me like you ignored my case on dwlee

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: Salsa

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I dont think dwlee is gonna happen and she's my second choice

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Alright, we got

something

out of Salsa/Marci toward the end at least. I still have the feeling this is going to flip town though.

VOTE: N_M

[ssbm_Kyouko]

mods asleep steal pagetops

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Deadline expired 1h43m ago, and I hammered N_M about 45 minutes before deadline

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Oh I thought today was the last day...

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Damn it

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think Math is town after that. He could just have easily gotten support for Marci for quickhammering on D2, as his point was neither of them should be around for ELO. If Math was scum with N_M he could have pushed Marci instead.

Pedit: You need to consider who else is scum because the game does not end with me.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Seeing it was N_M and DGB so far that have flipped, whoever the third scum is was entirely alone D1, and was probably alone in choosing the NK. Personally I think this points the most towards Marci and Dwlee, but if Salsabil is town the play has just been atrocious. I couldn't make sense of it.

If I had to pick one player right now I really dont know. I was reading a lot of Roden overnight once I realized that the scumflips meant the third scum was essentially alone due to DGB and N_M's activity. This led me towards either Marci or Dwlee, as Roden was pushing on them both and was TRing DGB until I wagoned it. He was blind to DGB until I pointed it out. Before that, he was pressuring Marci and a little bit Dwlee, but my impression was it was mostly pressure on Marci. He came back around to pushing Dwlee in twilight, going so far as to tell him to "enjoy his babysit" iirc. I dont have my notes handy atm.

I still think we can look at the FN crumb and the Babysitter claim and question why it was Roden over a PR, and why was it Roden over me? It's easy to say Roden over me because I'm scum, but I found a readslist of Roden's that I think is kinda my salvation. He has me, DGB, as high TRs, and N_M as a townlean. Why do I, in that situation, flashwagon DGB at the end of the day and then kill a widely TRed player that considered me a part of their townblock? I, as scum, would probably shoot Titus there to kill the Babysitter while there are more town available and she is statistically more likely to target town than mafia.

So it comes back to, why was Roden killed over a PR? Easy enough to say if they saw the FN crumb that they figured Titus would have too, and thought she could protect Manatee. Also easy enough to say the last scum didnt want to risk being targeted by Titus. I think Roden was killed because he was pushing Dwlee and Marci. If he was killed for being TRed it would have been me, so there must have been another reason.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

The one thing giving me pause on is would scum!Kyo be that obvious there? Too scummy to be scum?

I don’t think it’s too scummy to be scum there. Too scummy to be scum would be an outright defense. What Kyo did was continually suggest other people.

I did this twice in Owners Market Blitz. Once on D1, Gamma was bussing his partner and I argued that Kitty (his partner) seemed like the "default" elimination. I fought for it to be anyone but Kitty, even directly appealed to Gamma to vote out a townie instead, and he didn't budge. I got flak for it from Nancy all game and I lived to MELO with Nancy, Marci, and Something_Smart

In MELO, I cased everyone. I wrote walls upon walls on every player, and I almost died for it because I was pushing everyone. In the end, Nancy and I caught S_S, but it was too late and we missed deadline and got a no elim. S_S killed Nancy and nearly convinced Marci to vote me out in ELO. But we won it. I'm a bit paranoid that scum!Marci is looking to imitate her OMB play in this game to trick me because I did TR her yesterday.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Salsa speaks English as a second language so wordplay like "I can be friendly" is something she could easily not pick up on.

Marci is easily confused. I dont know if that correlates, but I believe she could have missed it. There weren't any softs to pick up on in OMB, so I dont know if she would notice them or not. My gut instinct is to say she could have missed it.

Dwlee knew about the crumb as is evidenced at the start of D2

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Owners Market Blitz

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I also knew about the crumb because it was addressed to me and I immediately switched gears when Manatee crumbed to me. I think someone missed it tbh because if they didnt miss it they should have shot me.

I do kind of agree that shooting Titus on N2 is hard for Dwlee to do though when she seemed to be torn between him and omo during that day, even if she was more settled on omo at the end of Day.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

ALSO in OMB, I catch Gamma in essentially the same way that I catch DGB. I get to a stall in the game where my reads-based POE doesn't make sense anymore. I realize something is wrong and reassess (in this game I point put there is a hole in my reads somewhere), and I catch him off of an ISO read out of the blue. Same way as DGB. I think it is clearly not a bus by me

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I would never kill Titus N2 there. The "not mafia is a jailkeeper and protected dwlee" theory is dead now.

Did I say that?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I would never kill Titus N2 there. The "not mafia is a jailkeeper and protected dwlee" theory is dead now.

Did I say that?

I thought so? You were saying NM could be a scum! jailkeeper with me and maybe I just extrapolated from that that it would explain the Titus kill if I was mafia?

I didn't remember saying it in those words exactly but I did think about it, considering Titus and I just did the same to Cyrus when he a combined BS Vig and we had a Jailkeeper on our scumteam in that large. I dont think this is a TMI, I probably said it, but couldn't find it on my phone.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Not unreasonable to extrapolate that

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Spoiler: N_M meta

Lmao, just went to read some N_M games and the first one I open is a nightless micro where he gets hammered on page 1 as VT

Still looking, just thought I'd share.

This is also the extent of her attempting to meta Not Mafia versus say me.

For me she seems to be trying to find anything to scumify me and when it didn’t work she backed off.

It’s more like she’s scum who didn’t like I had her buddy pinned.

The reason for this is mainly I didnt expect to find anything useful. I've heard of N_M, I know hes a shitpost bot, and I figured there would be no point in metaing him. I had also decided already that I would eliminate him at deadline, and I didnt need to convince anyone to eliminate him since he was already E-1. I wasn't prioritizing him because it seemed a wasted effort since I'd be on him in the end anyways.

If scum, I would have just bussed N_M yesterday with little affair. There was no point in fighting it as hard as I did.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

@Kyo how did Not Mafia flipping goon change your reads if at all?

His flip confirms to me you are not scum, reasoning already posted. Me being wrong on him triggered me to reread again as I was wrong on him, so I figured I could be wrong on others.

Most notably from my reread I saw Saudade try to get something started on N_M on D1, I believe off the back of the marcistar or Roden wagon, but I'd have to go back and check again. Either way it indicates he was uninformed imo.

With the N_M flip I realized the last scum was likely isolated on D1 due to the activity of DGB and N_M. They didnt have active team resources to collaborate on directing the gamestate, so it makes sense to me that the N1 kill was selected solely because it would benefit the last remaining scum. When I reached that conclusion I decided to focus on Roden's iso. What I'm having trouble with though is that Roden's ISO points one way: (marci, dwlee were his points of focus), and Salsa is just completely separated from the action on D1 with the self-vote. She was overruled on Max iirc, but I'll have to continue to reread and see how she reacted to that.

It would be great if we could just go Salsa>Marci and win, but I finally got the mini 2216 scum pt unlocked and it's troubling how closely dwlee's planning in the scum thread there lines up with how he's playing here. Most notably in buddying up to powertown!Math, and the way he keeps the deepwolf in mind. In that game, his idea in the PT was to push that the D1 wagon on scum was all town, because he was on the wagon.

In this game, he was off the wagon and is keeping the deepwolf idea fresh in our minds. It's not just him though, I had been entertaining the idea Math could be deep wolfing, and Math is the one that brought it up in the first place and has also been keeping the idea fresh. Dwlee and Salsa stand to gain from that idea being fresh in towns mind, that there is a deepwolf on the wagon. We would naturally be inclined to suspect myself, math, and Marci. The thing is though, Dwlee is not trying to ram my lim through despite what I did yesterday. It could be because scum!dwlee will try it in MELO, but I think that's just paranoia. I think Salsabil's posturing at the end of yesterDay is the most scummy.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I will say though that I've seen town!dwlee buddy up with powertown and sheep them as well. It's just his style as a player and it makes it hard to know if he's scum based on that alone.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm looking at D2 as well because it occurs to me that before geraintm flipped IC on d3 that scum could have been banking on him as a mislim. Once he was revealed IC the poe got small quick - Dwlee, Salsa, Marci, and N_M.

I think we're looking at salsa here tbh. She, like N_M, was off of the DGB wagon, voting herself. She was pushing geraintm D1 and D2 and she seems lost for what to do on D3.

i actually think dwlee being off wagon in the way he was is a better look for him then the way omo hopped on

Wait, what??? Why not scum!

Dwlee

wouldn’t do that???

This could be genuine frustration coming through for Salsa. She may have planned to come into D2 having me push hard for a Dwlee elimination, and might have been shocked to find that some people were TRing Dwlee for what he did, when she had possibly planned to use it as a reason to mislim him. Is it a coincidence that when Dwlee did not go through, she swapped onto omo, the other half of the pair of players that I claimed on D1 were hesitant to hammer.

Math buried DGB they were town anyways, math is anti d1 bussing iirc

Slight correction:
As scum (which I am not) don’t bus unless I get something out of it. Very rarely do you get something from bussing a buddy D1.

This makes me think possible Marci+DGB+early voter on DGB to save Marci possibly.

I asked for no fast night to try to make sense of the vote patterns and couldn’t which is indicative of a deep wolf.

im confused, what r u thinking here..? do u think i could be scum pr..? why would "to save Marci"?

Correct.

I do not believe ManateeDude is scum. Therefore wagons are start are TvT or SvT between you and ManateeDude.

Ergo scum wagon was swapped from Scum Goon to scum goon which is weird and I don’t see scum doing it
Or scum PR to scum goon scum motivated
Or Town to scum motivated town motivated

Me and Titus are town which makes it more likely the swap was scum motivated unless we had an all town wagon on DGB.

ah i c i c,
whats making u think it wasn't an all town wagon? just that u think theres deepwolf, or is there something else?

I work from what options exist and what is probable.

An all town wagon is just not the most probable.

My lunch break is over but it’s a vibes thing.

A all town wagon doesn’t just suddenly emerge on two stalled wagons. It feels artificial.

I'm curious if you think it's possible that an all town wagon could have appeared based on seeing N_M and Salsa were self-voting? If both scum are self-voting and not taking action because they've seen town are eating each other, it could be difficult for them to get in motion quickly enough for them to stop a flashwagon on their partner.

Votecount:

• omo (4): MaxTheFox, Salsabil Faria, DrippingGoofball, Saudade
  Roden (4): ssbm_Kyouko, omo, Dwlee99, ManateeDude
  DrippingGoofball (2): marcistar, Titus
  Salsabil Faria (1): geraintm
  Not_Mafia (1): Not_Mafia
  ManateeDude (1): Roden

Spoiler: Votes Since Last Votecount

VOTE: dwlee99
why'd you sheepe me bro

Also, VOTE: owo - she's pocketing Not_Mafia, and her and marcistar are being cliquey. Fight the power. End the oppressive regime.

Everything up to 172 is RVS, but in no way does it try to get out of RVS

Hi I'm a miller

Would you happen to be...Informed?

informed of DN

What is DN?

Oh no.

I'm not sure what DN is but why do I feel a sinking feeling shit's going sideways?

A Death Neighborizer!?

Deez Nuts

But yeah it feels like RVS is going on a bit too long.

I think scum's getting restless with RVS and is waiting for someone to make a move they can pounce on

general consensus seems to be a dislike of their entry which i think is pretty nai

translation: stop wagoning my partner for wrong reasons

Hero solve: Max + Manatee + Marci

How serious is this?

Here there is a believable attempt to start solving, but since then, feels like a good amount has happened that Roden could be commenting on, especially given they feel RVS is going on too long

general consensus seems to be a dislike of their entry which i think is pretty nai

translation: stop wagoning my partner for wrong reasons

Hero solve: Max + Manatee + Marci

How serious is this?

Didn't get an answer to this.

But instead of continuing to look for solving info they're making a busy post.

VOTE: Roden

The way Marci reacted to me pushing on them feels towny in retrospect, I was just a bit taken aback at the time when they were not suspicious of me which made me feel like there was TMI at play but at the end of the day scum leans towards actually questioning people who are FoSing them.

I'll sheep you for now kyouko VOTE: Roden

VOTE: omo

VOTE: Rodent
Kyo town?

I am masons with your mum

UNVOTE: Not_Mafia

VOTE: Not_Mafia

UNVOTE: Not_Mafia

He's the only one who is actually trying to play the game.

Scum!Not_Mafia is usually happy to troll.

I'm down for town reading Kyouko, if only because her reasoning for scum reading me is so bad I don't think scum would try it.

do u usually play like this..?

Like what? Her accusation is completely unreasonable. Let alone hypocritical since she hasn't commented on everything either.

i dont think its unreasonable, you seem a bit held back this game
do you usually play so go-with-the-flow held back type of style?

I've literally never played a game with you before? What are you talking about here?

And haven't you just been memeing all game and brushing off every accusation toward you?

VOTE: Marcistar

VOTE: Roden

i think ur getting way too defensive considering the people calling u out r not even full on saying ur wolfy

VOTE: ManateeDude

So you're saying you're not paying attention and just sheeping the first player to make a detailed scum read? And your own justification for voting me is that I'm "defensive"? You might as well be scum claiming tbh.

Votecount:

• Dwlee99 (4): Salsabil Faria, ssbm_Kyouko, Titus, ManateeDude
  ManateeDude (2): omo, Dwlee99
  omo (2): MaxTheFox, DrippingGoofball
  DrippingGoofball (1): marcistar
  Salsabil Faria (1): geraintm
  Not_Mafia (1): Not_Mafia
  marcistar (1): Roden

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2021-07-25 10:22:01).
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

Spoiler: Votes Since Last Votecount

VOTE: Manatee

sorry kyouko i think roden prob town here

VOTE: Titus

VOTE: Manatee

sorry kyouko i think roden prob town here

Okay, saudade, manatee are 2 town down I think. I was ready to vote manatee earlier too. Are scum not posting? Dwlee/Titus/?

? Could be max but i was in both her previous games and i can say with certainty that entrance is nai.

VOTE: titus

I am having trouble reading people so I'm sheeping my mason buddy.
VOTE: Titus

Roden i think ur theorycrafting bc ur reading into normal interactions on a way deeper level

You mean like me who you sheeped in voting Rowen?
VOTE: manatee

I am having trouble reading people so I'm sheeping my mason buddy.
VOTE: Titus

UNVOTE: OMO

VOTE: Dwlee99

and I'm still SR

OMO

FYI... Not sure about

Roten

atm.

Women = Roden, and I'm not switching because I like owo more. The cliqueyness was half-assed. It can be re-attacked later.

We get it, you're either scum claiming or you're a PR trying to hide yourself with scumminess so you don't get NK'd. Whatever, moving on.

This mentioning PR part seems TMI.

I don't understand how this seems TMI. How'd you come to this conclusion? The rest of your posting tracks, but this doesn't for me.

BTW last game I played with Dwlee he was scum and was talkative. Now he's quieter. Anyone who knows Dwlee better, is this NAI or no?

So you will meta N_M but not Dwlee? Why is that?

Upon skim the Titus vote stands.

In the last game she was the same, but you were more chatty, what change?

I have less to say and my eyes are glazing over on half of these posts.

VOTE: Dwlee
I think your attention span is better than you'd like us to believe

VOTE: Dwlee

Omgus haha.

VOTE: Kyo
This might be scum. The inattentiveness thing is a very strange thing to push me on and I think town!Kyo knows I sometimes am just like that.

VOTE: Dwlee

Also a lot of the pushing on me felt like they wanted me to out who my mason partner was cause it obviously wasn't Saudade.

I just wanted you to play, you're coming off as very passive and just sheeping other people. Even when pressured you're just lightly flailing. I don't think you're necessarily scummy, but you're not really doing much to help town and the Kyokou read isn't good. Who do you suspect besides her?

UNVOTE:

I'm gonna write up a reads list and figure who to push from there. Idk if Dwlee is the right vote today.

Apparently no one in FIA made my eyes roll behind my head trying to read their posts, so we move to this
VOTE: Manatee

Hi I'm a miller

Would you happen to be...Informed?

informed of DN

What is DN?

Oh no.

I'm not sure what DN is but why do I feel a sinking feeling shit's going sideways?

A Death Neighborizer!?

Deez Nuts

But yeah it feels like RVS is going on a bit too long.

Agreed.

VOTE: Titus

Town Titus wants out of RVS ASAP. Not seeing that here.

What dad joke?

When does a joke become a dad joke?

Heheheheh.

Gonna produce some content?

Also Roden’s post sucks. FoS’s can be on more players than scum. It’s also possible there’s four scum we don’t know

VOTE: Roden

VOTE: oʍo

Saudade town read dropping dramatically in just two pages. Didn't expect that.

its a lot harder to townread someone being an asshole

Yeahhhh...

Kinda wondering if this is gonna be a game where town cannibalizes itself Days 1 and 2 while scum just lays low for free.

First post I have vibed with you on. You might be town after all.

VOTE: Unvote

Marci- Same reason I suspect her that I do Manatee. However, I feel like Marci more blatantly tried to distance herself. Possibly scum trying to associate herself with a town!Manatee in order to build fake scum equity.

Also don't think Marci has been doing much solving or scum hunting, mainly just chatting with everyone and being friendly.

having trouble with my reads, though that isn't too much of a valid excuse. I have townreads mostly, and "they dont seem scummy enough to vote" reads, but im not really too confident in anything.

All things considered, I'm interested in voting out either Marci or Max unless someone can come up with a compelling enough case for somebody else.

whatchu waiting for? why didnt u vote in this post if ur willing to vote out either of me/max?

Who are your town reads? Who looks scummy but not enough to vote them?

I waited to vote because I wanted to see reactions to my lack of vote. I think your reaction is the most interesting, it reads like you want to "gotcha" me for not voting. But all you're doing is implying it's suspicious. Compare this to Math who made a full scum case out of it.

VOTE: Marcistar

Max- The root of most of my scum reads. She took a lot of heat early on then laid low ever since. Posts occasionally to avoid prod dodge accusations, but she isn't really doing anything. Most likely just trying to avoid attention, to the point it's becoming obvious.

I haven't been exactly laying low. Look at my ISO.

I've seen your ISO, a lot of your posts became very safe after your wagon cooled off. It's hard to read your posts and not notice how cautious you've been.

Saudade town read dropping dramatically in just two pages. Didn't expect that.

No he's just an pillion. An pillion with town vibes tho. I can't quite explain it.

Wait he got replaced? I didn't catch up yet. Welcome Math!

I can agree with this.

Votecount:

• marcistar (5): Roden, ssbm_Kyouko, Salsabil Faria, omo, DrippingGoofball
  omo (3): MaxTheFox, ManateeDude, MathBlade
  ManateeDude (1): Dwlee99
  Dwlee99 (1): Titus
  DrippingGoofball (1): marcistar
  Salsabil Faria (1): geraintm
  Not_Mafia (1): Not_Mafia

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2021-07-25 10:22:01).
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

Spoiler: Votes Since Last Votecount

Elimination on omo seems the safest to me at this point. They haven't countered my last response to them (466) at all despite posting after I posted it. They're just oddly detached despite being aggressive if that makes sense.

Wait, where is

OMO

?? They suddenly vanished!

UNVOTE: Dwlee99

VOTE: OMO

Titus is actually more likely scum than manatee I think so if people are down for a flash wagon

Hmmmm.....
Fine, will sheep you this time, if anyone from

Titus

and

Manatee

will flip green, you're red... deal?

UNVOTE: OMO

VOTE: Titus

VOTE: manatee
I'm content with a titus lim on the basis that it is outside my confident townreads because i cant read titus but would be a loss if they flipped town for us.

VOTE: omo

dwlee i cant figure out why u TR them

VOTE: salsabil

VOTE: marcistar I would come to manatee as well because I think this "limbo" in my reads is one scum buddying town/trying to create partner equity with town.

Manatee has better upsides in her posting. I also feel like Marci's vote has generally been wasted this game and that is where scum likes to sit when town eats each other up. Others are also guilty of this.

VOTE: omo

dwlee i cant figure out why u TR them

I can definitely sheep this given Owo’s push of Titus before her claim and lack of vote.

For all the sussing of Titus she had very few votes IIRC probably looking for a Titus susser, nonvoter

VOTE: Owo

Everyone is claiming, now it’s my turn... I'm an ascetic mafia rolecop

UNVOTE: Titus

VOTE: Marci

UNVOTE:

OmO looking better and dropping town tells.

oh yeah I forgot looker was towny, DGB goes up to my townlean area.

VOTE: Marci
I'll consolidate here since I saw a lot of votes here.

If it flips scum it'd be good to just plow through manatee and then reeval only if that flips town then.

Also don't think Marci has been doing much solving or scum hunting, mainly just chatting with everyone and being friendly.

Based on this alone, she's scum.

VOTE: marci

between the top 2 votecounts, bottom VC clears Marci IMO


I know my reads aren't 100% shit so with 3/4 of my d1 scumreads being wrong on top of the 4th one actually being uninteractive with DGB slot, I'd venture to say I'm right on Max and I should have pushed it harder when I got pinged at the start.

These VCs are actually what push me over the edge. Salsa is on all 3 of the peak wagons on town there, but when it comes time to vote DGB she is self-voting and complaining that this town doesnt want to cooperate. (Not sure if the complaints came on D1 or D2)

As of now I am leaning most toward Salsa and think that we do Salsa>No Elim, and try for a 3p ELO if we're wrong on Salsa. Theres still a lot to discuss though and I have notes to post on Monday

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Marci vote parking on DGB is indicative of something and I can't figure out what.

Make sure to read all of Marci's ISO D1 for context, and will probably need to open other players at times to see what she's responding to

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Marci vote parking on DGB is indicative of something and I can't figure out what.

I think based on D1 Kyo/Marci is much more likely.

Like too much points this to be Kyo and I will have time Sunday to read but I also don’t like how in her latest post she’s all like “yeah elim Salsa then if that fails no elim” when no elim changes like nothing. I die and it’s the same PoE if Salsa is town.

So like ??? If anything if Salsa is town we just run the 4P melo.

Theres a chance you or I die at 4 if we no lim and it could help the last town if they're paranoid of one of us. Will look for a deep wolf game of mine. Already posted all my old games, it's been a few years though so I'll have to look at them myself first. I've had 2 scum games since coming back and they were both bad performances.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

So it's old and it's a micro, but I think it's a good example of a deepwolf game you're looking for and it's only 36 pages.

Birds of Paradise

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Marci vote parking on DGB is indicative of something and I can't figure out what.

I think based on D1 Kyo/Marci is much more likely.

Like too much points this to be Kyo and I will have time Sunday to read but I also don’t like how in her latest post she’s all like “yeah elim Salsa then if that fails no elim” when no elim changes like nothing. I die and it’s the same PoE if Salsa is town.

So like ??? If anything if Salsa is town we just run the 4P melo.

Theres a chance you or I die at 4 if we no lim and it could help the last town if they're paranoid of one of us. Will look for a deep wolf game of mine. Already posted all my old games, it's been a few years though so I'll have to look at them myself first. I've had 2 scum games since coming back and they were both bad performances.

No there isn’t.

Assume a you + me + scum + one Townie combo.

It literally does not serve scum’s interest to kill there if your theory is true because you said it aloud.

I'm inclined to agree but I just saw scum kill in 4p MELO on no lim recently. Idk why they did, but they did. Could happen again, and doesnt hurt to try I think.

Going to bed

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm down for town reading Kyouko, if only because her reasoning for scum reading me is so bad I don't think scum would try it.

do u usually play like this..?

Like what? Her accusation is completely unreasonable. Let alone hypocritical since she hasn't commented on everything either.

Let me take you through the reasoning again since you seem to not follow, based on you a) saying my read is unreasonable and b) calling my read hypocritical.

1. Roden's ISO up to 172 seems content to participate in RVS.
2. Roden, in 172, complains that RVS is going on too long. Conclusion: Roden wants to move the game out of RVS. Up to this point, the thought process tracks. You

were

fine to participate in RVS, but now you are tiring of it.
3. In 173, immediately afterward, you ask omo how serious their hero solve is. In good faith, this can be seen as an attempt to get the conversation moving

away

from RVS. To this point, your purported stance on RVS and your actions still track with one another.
4. Things of interest that could be commented on occur while you are offline

Spoiler: The things that happened, raw quotes, no context

Is Not_Mafia trolling or what?

VOTE: omo for being the only other one not to confirm.

VOTE: MaxTheFox
This is a nervous scumclaim right here

In what way is it a scumclaim? I think I'm keeping the vote then...

In what way isn't it?

on a serious note i dont like lookers passivity in regards to being asked about voting

I think Looker's behavior is pretty town indicative in thought process, if very chaotic in nature.

Mention the post(s) you find town indicative please.

Which ones are scum indicative?

on a serious note i dont like lookers passivity in regards to being asked about voting

I think Looker's behavior is pretty town indicative in thought process, if very chaotic in nature.

Mention the post(s) you find town indicative please.

Which ones are scum indicative?

This isn't the answer of my question and their posts are either NAI or fluff so far.

UNVOTE: geraintm

VOTE: OMO

Is Not_Mafia trolling or what?

VOTE: omo for being the only other one not to confirm.

VOTE: MaxTheFox
This is a nervous scumclaim right here

In what way is it a scumclaim? I think I'm keeping the vote then...

In what way isn't it?

The burden of proof is on you, you accused me first.

omo is either scum or just trying to cause chaos. None of their posts make much sense as town, they're either baseless accusations or dodging questions.

omo is either scum or just trying to cause chaos. None of their posts make much sense as town, they're either baseless accusations or dodging questions.

Yes I am causing chaos. Why is that scummy?

omo is either scum or just trying to cause chaos. None of their posts make much sense as town, they're either baseless accusations or dodging questions.

Yes I am causing chaos. Why is that scummy?

It's scummy because it gets in the way of town's discussion. Especially since RVS is pretty much over.

And answer my question, with how you're dodging people's questions I'm happy to lock my vote onto you.

Weird bc I've been doing more discussion than you have. Sounds like youre your own obstacle to getting into discussion and you're projecting that onto me

Also what you claim isnt proof that is my intent nor does your analysis look at intent. Happy to dunk you if you keep this up.

Also VOTE: Marcistar masons unite on this

spoilered image removed from quote by ssbm_Kyouko

I want to change my vote, who should I vote and why?

vote whoever.
im voting looker because i felt like the whole "waiting on max" thing was just them making excuses to not post. and my vote kept, because i don't really like his posting following manatees questioning them.

omo is either scum or just trying to cause chaos. None of their posts make much sense as town, they're either baseless accusations or dodging questions.

don't think what they've been doing is really scummy rn, the game was not really serious and they seem to have been trying to drive it into serious zone.

Max has reacted alright to the few votes thrown at him actually

[color=8040FF]I want to change my vote, who should I vote and why?[/color]

hate this post.
+1 on my scum index

Also, VOTE: owo - she's pocketing Not_Mafia, and her and marcistar are being cliquey. Fight the power. End the oppressive regime.

looker looking like a good policy lim on top of the fact i dont really dont TR them at all

Don't like how quickly Saudade has let go of his hate boner

Why are Women voting Titus? Is she a misogynist?

tbh, i remember reading the vote count.. and i was just confused who women was because i dont remember there being someone named that.. am i remembering wrong?

Also, VOTE: owo - she's pocketing Not_Mafia, and her and marcistar are being cliquey. Fight the power. End the oppressive regime.

I confused owo with Manatee - it's all pink and blue

"cliquey" are u saying thats scummy..? whats making you want to use that to go after her instead of me..?
and, if ur confusing owo with manatee, why did u not switch onto manatee once u realized this mistake?

5. In 218, when you return, your immediate post is "Didn't get an answer to this." Your question was directed at omo, and if you had read to know he didnt answer you, you would have also seen he was husy engaging with one of the scumreads in his hero solve. A more appropriate follow up for town that was tring to sort omo would be to comment on his interaction with Max, or follow up with a question asking him to explain his read on Marci or Manatee, as it seems clear that he is serious about Max, and by extension, should be serious about the others.

In my opinion, you should have been commenting on the action from 4. 218 is the kind of post that scum makes to give the appearance they are genuinely scumhunting: "look everyone, when he didn't answer my question, I didnt forget about it. Call me town because I'm following through with this" - I used to do this as scum all the time. I would re-iso myself constantly and make sure everyone had answered my questions and if they had not, I would get loud about it. Because a lot of people will form scumreads because "this person is asking questions but isn't drawing meaningful conclusions", or "... but doesn't seem to care when they go unanswered"

There is the reasoning.

a) My read on you is not unreasonable.
b) The basis of my read is that you did not comment on things that could take the game out of RVS when you purport to be tiring of it. There is nothing hypocritical about my read, because I did not say I was tiring of RVS (though I was, and was having difficulty forming reads), and am bringing something that gets the ball rolling instead of doing very little about it and trying to make it look like I am doing more than I am.

To say my read is hypocritical is to show that you are not trying to understand my thought process. If you had tried to understand it, you would have known what my issue with you was, and you would not accuse me of being hypocritical. It shows you are thinking at a shallow level by reducing my read on you to "Roden didnt comment on everything so he is scum" and trying to flip that reduction around on me and call me hypocritical for not commenting on everything.

Ok, I'm convinced to vote

Roden

but my current SR

OMO

also voted them and I don’t think scum need to buss this early. I'll decide after finishing the catch-up ig.

This kind of shallow thinking: I'm not going to vote for my scumread because my other scumread is voting them, is scum-indicative. Town doesnt have a perfect picture and should expect that they could be wrong on one or the other, and shouldn't be worried about this on D1 with no flips. I think more likely she is waiting to see which way the tide is turning before voting

Women = Roden, and I'm not switching because I like owo more. The cliqueyness was half-assed. It can be re-attacked later.

We get it, you're either scum claiming or you're a PR trying to hide yourself with scumminess so you don't get NK'd. Whatever, moving on.

This mentioning PR part seems TMI.

I don't understand how this seems TMI. How'd you come to this conclusion? The rest of your posting tracks, but this doesn't for me.

They could say town but used the word pr which pinged me.

As mentioned in 487, I was pinged by Salsa calling this TMI. Knowing the flips now though, Roden was saying Looker (DGB) was either scum claiming or a tpr trying to dodge the NK by scumming it up. To say that mentioning PR here is TMI doesnt make sense from a town perspective. It is common knowledge that a strategy as a TPR can be to make yourself a viable candidate for a mislim on a later day so that you dont get NKed (see geraintm's lurking playstyle in this game). Roden isn't saying "you're a PR", which would TMI he knows Looker is town (he wasn't town), Roden is saying it's one or the other. Again this is common knowledge, so accusing Roden of TMI here felt wrong to me as it seemed a reasonable statement for an uninformed townie to make.

I think what was really going on was 2 things: 1, by saying it's TMI, it paints Roden as scum (chainsawing), and 2, the implication is that Roden is TMIing scum!Looker as town, which is a defense of Salsabil's scum buddy Looker.

Also, if the word PR pinged her, she's probably on the lookout for it. Maybe Salsa thought he was actually TMIing that he was a PR and that's why Roden died. Just to PR hunt.

I was getting the feeling that Dwlee is just a flailing townie.

Hmm...

However, Roden is advocating that Dwlee, one of Salsabil's prime scumreads, is town here. Killing him removes that obstacle.

How do you feel about a policy geraintm or Not Mafia?

Why is Not Mafia so high despite like no posts?

I've no problem ig.
For the reason

Not_Mafia

is getting townnread here, I'm not actually sure about it cause I saw scum!him did that.

So she's fine with a policy on N_M on D1, and she's seen him do this as scum, but on D3 she doesnt vote him until the pressure comes onto her. Until then, she is content to vote alongside him on a counterwagon to his, with me, who she is now scumreading... for being wrong on the person she was counterwagoning? I'm actually not recalling why she is SRing me because it looked weak to me and I was expecting it from end of her D3 play.

Titus is actually more likely scum than manatee I think so if people are down for a flash wagon

Hmmmm.....
Fine, will sheep you this time, if anyone from

Titus

and

Manatee

will flip green, you're red... deal?

UNVOTE: OMO

VOTE: Titus

Now this is a ridiculous proposal in and of itself, but suddenly she is willing to sheep dwlee when she's been interested in eliminating him pretty much all game to.this point.

What a hypocrite pl!!
When I was voting

OMO

and

Dwlee

, either I was completely ignored or they were strongly townread by others which made me back off a little and I decided to sheep others. But now I am not town to all of you because I went against

Titus

or to your precious M3 group, which you guys want to eliminate???
You guys deserve each other, not gonna post anymore, screw yourselves!!

UNVOTE: Marci

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

Read-list

Town:

ssbm

,

Math

,

Titus

,

Roden

Scum:

Dwlee

,

OMO

,

goofball

Rests are null now, will be changed after the D1 and N1 flips most probably.

Hmm, what's wrong with this readslist?
1. Dwlee in her scumreads, even though she was just seemingly flipped on him and was sheeping him
2. N_M in "the rest are null", when she has stated already that she has seen that N_M has played this exact way as scum before.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I give you guys 2 propositions:

1. Eliminate me today and

Dwlee

tomorrow.

2. If you want to keep me alive today but eliminate me in the melo/elo, then eliminate

Dwlee

today!

My rl is a mess rn, can't help you that much.

Ok

Dwlee

, I

think

I can believe you for a short time

UNVOTE: Dwlee

VOTE: Marci

By reading all these, now I think it'll be easier for town to sort scums on melo/elo by eliminating me today.

Marci

is saying right, they are also an easy target, so we both are towns ig.

ssbm

still town to me, that left:

Dwlee

Not_Mafia

Math

You can go for in this order tomorrow.

UNVOTE: Marci

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

Sorry Salsa but I always vote self-voters, including myself

Thanks for the scum claim, who are you trying to save?
Btw, don't remember if I say this already but I don’t buy your

I can read

geraintm

read, it’s sounded TMI. And at that point, if you could really read them correctly (while they were not active that much iirr), then you

should

read me properly too, because you were the mod in one of my scum games and you played with town!me in several game as both alignment. Yes, I change my play style recently but why scum!me will play like this, what benefit I'm having rn?

TL;DR you're scum!

UNVOTE: Salsabil Faria

VOTE: Not_Mafia

UNVOTE: Not_Mafia

VOTE: Dwlee

Reason? Top scumread

So the above 5 posts are like, Salsabil's progression throughout D3. Again there's this pattern of scumreading Dwlee, but when it is convenient, sheeping him. She briefly cases N_M, but it really feels unnatural to me. Somehow him self-voting is a scumclaim today when it was no problem on D1. For some reason, D3 he was trying to save someone, but Salsabil doesnt name who it is because there's no competing wagon, unless you want to count Dwlee? It feels made up, and she has no qualms about voting other players with little to no reason. So the cas here feels like TMIing her partner. And Salsa and N_M were voting Dwlee with me yesterday, so her stance on N_M doesn't align with her voting or her reads on dwlee.

Another thing, is

Manatee

really confirmed?? I mean I know she claimed friendly neighbour and sent pm to

ssbm

but

ssbm

herself not confirmed yet. Are they can be scums??

Also questioning the manatee confirmation is just wild. Manatee had messaged Math as well, so what, Manatee, Math, and I are all scum covering for each other? After DGB is already flipped. This just cant be real

One of the reasons I'm not that much invested in this game because I don’t roll

scum

here.

Another thing, I'm

not

stupid as scum. The mistakes I made here which you think I made as scum, scum!me will never do that, I

always

read the thread.

What were these mistakes, and who thought you made them?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Is Not_Mafia trolling or what?

VOTE: omo for being the only other one not to confirm.

VOTE: MaxTheFox
This is a nervous scumclaim right here

Hi guys!

VOTE: Saudade

*Visibly overreacting*

*Visibly ignoring*

NM, Salsa, and Saudade are also town. Manatee is another potential mafia.

^quotes are because I thought geraint also wasn't voting, was wondering why manatee did not ask geraint. But I had forgotten 59, thought geraint only made 1 post

But you voted

Titus

instead of

ManateeDude

.

Go to the top quote and read what happens between these two posts, then keep reading Salsa's catchup. Note that Salsabil's catchup doesnt comment on N_M or Looker at all, and they're both getting some heat in this period of time.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

^actually it does comment on them in a positive light, which feels worse to me.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Kyo if you’re sure of your case why are you not voting?

I think I did end up voting the more I read, but I didn't vote at first because I have overnight read notes I wanted to post this morning.

One of the reasons I'm not that much invested in this game because I don’t roll

scum

here.

Another thing, I'm

not

stupid as scum. The mistakes I made here which you think I made as scum, scum!me will never do that, I

always

read the thread.

What were these mistakes, and who thought you made them?

You mentioned those already! Interesting fact is that you are thinking as

scum

I did all of this to put all the attention towards my back while having

Not_Mafia

and

DGB

as my scum-partners!! Either you're stupid!town who think I'm stupid!scum or you're the deep wolf who setting up for a LHF miselimination.

I didn't use the word mistake, so I'm wondering what specifically you are referring to, because I can't tell from context. You didn't quote any particular post of mine when you said that originally - you quoted yourself, and it is not clear what you are talking about.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

This is what I found overnight. Some I've discussed already - the general concepts, but I haven't had access to my notes to get specific post numbers over the weekend.

Some observations that came in order:

• Titus has now flipped, so we know that on N1, scum knew she was a town Babysitter
• Scum did not shoot Titus or Manatee because crumbs were missed.
• DGB died while it was travelling IRL and wouldn't have been around to help spot the FN crumb imo. When it got ran up as a wagon, it only had time to post a pleading post about "my husband is in the driveway already" or something like that. I think it's clear it did not have time to read closely. Not_Mafia seems to have been Not_Reading,
  so that leaves just the third scum responsible for both spotting the crumb, and choosing the NK.

The last part in bold is what prompted me to read Roden in ISO for motive. In retrospect, I don't think I found the actual motive, because I think the last scum is Salsabil. This is what I found that was pointing toward either Marci or Dwlee as the last scum.

Quotes in/around Roden's ISO

Also a lot of the pushing on me felt like they wanted me to out who my mason partner was cause it obviously wasn't Saudade.

I just wanted you to play, you're coming off as very passive and just sheeping other people. Even when pressured you're just lightly flailing. I don't think you're necessarily scummy, but you're not really doing much to help town and the Kyokou read isn't good. Who do you suspect besides her?

UNVOTE:

I'm gonna write up a reads list and figure who to push from there. Idk if Dwlee is the right vote today.

This felt similar to me how boxxy caught Dwlee in Mini 2216, which is detailed at the bottom of this post.

[ManateeGal], Titus, and Kyo

@roden

I feel like you keep asking me questions I've already answered or saying things about things I've posted that aren't true.

Why are you editing your own post to make your quote look more credible...?

So if I understand correctly, you told me I was misinterpreting your accusation. You aren't suspecting Kyouko just because she voted you. But here you're directly saying you suspect Manatee and Titus because they voted for you. You even throw in Kyouko

again

and say her vote is terrible.

What exactly am I misinterpreting?

I edited "you" to Manatee for readability... Dude what

You changed the content and formatting completely. The original post didn't look like the hero solve you tried to make it look like afterwards at all.

And it isn't that they're voting me alone. It's that they're voting me for terrible reasons. That's scummy

What terrible reasons? Were my reasons good then?

I grabbed these last 2 without any annotation on them, I think to show that Roden was pushing Dwlee during D1.

TOWN READS

Kyouko- Probably the closest we have to obvtown.

DGB- Looker spewed town before they replaced in.

TOWN LEANS

Not_Mafia- He's been inactive the past couple days but he was actually trying to solve early on.

Titus- She's not trying too hard to look town, she's actively trying to gain information, and her responses feel genuine.

Salsabil- She only has one read that I disagree with, which actually helps make me think her reads are authentic and not just following general consensus.

NULL

OMO and Saudade (not Math)- Both are Null for the same reason. Both have been fairly chaotic, which helps generate content, but they're not doing a whole lot of actual solving themselves.

Geraintm- Not much content to look at. He's done this as town before but it's ultimately NAI.

Dwlee- Idk why they're making such a conscious effort to look scummy. It makes me think possibly just confused town, but they've played long enough to know better.

SCUM LEANS

ManateeDude- I feel like she has scum equity with Max and Marci after we had our back and forth. She occasionally gives town vibes with her posts though, so not a definite scum read.

Math (not Saudade)- Terrible entrance, terrible vote, and fake sounding questions all make him sound incredibly scummy in a short amount of time. Combined with my read on Saudade, this slot doesnt feel good at all to me.

SCUM READS

Marci- Same reason I suspect her that I do Manatee. However, I feel like Marci more blatantly tried to distance herself. Possibly scum trying to associate herself with a town!Manatee in order to build fake scum equity. Also don't think Marci has been doing much solving or scum hunting, mainly just chatting with everyone and being friendly.

Max- The root of most of my scum reads. She took a lot of heat early on then laid low ever since. Posts occasionally to avoid prod dodge accusations, but she isn't really doing anything. Most likely just trying to avoid attention, to the point it's becoming obvious.

All things considered, I'm interested in voting out either Marci or Max unless someone can come up with a compelling enough case for somebody else.

This is the readslist I found while reading Roden that I think points towards me not being the last scum. In this post, Roden has me, DGB as TRs, and N_M as a townlean. Roden was also widely TRed and a part of the townblock. It would have been easy to not bus and keep Roden alive, and if I was going to bus for towncred, I think bussing N_M would have been the better play as he's a liability to be policied anyways. With what did happen though, it wouldn't make sense for me to kill Roden N1.

Marci, if you're town I really want you to defend yourself. I don't want you mis-elim'd if you're just a passive player, so please make a case for yourself.

The biggest thing that's pinged me are your associatives with Max and Manatee, and then the blatant distancing that happened afterward. Something I commented on and that Kyouko noticed too is that it also looked like you were trying to build fake scum equity with Manatee. Your vote on Looker/DGB also doesn't read as town since you've made several accusations and suspected others since then. Why did you never change your vote/why are you so certain about DGB?

These are the things that need to be addressed the most IMO.

This is where Roden starts to shift his focus onto Marci. I actually thought at first that this is where he landed for the day and began thinking Marci is more likely that Dwlee to want to kill Roden, but then toward EoD Roden comes back onto Dwlee a bit.

To be fair max probably deserves to be null on my list, I'm quite focused on manatee/marci and max sits down there still because she was there before

Pedit: oh okay well, hmm. I think Roden is town, I guess is all I can say. What do you mean he's "being weird" with you

Read our interactions. He misunderstands my posts in I almost all of them.

This isn't an explanation. This is actually just incredibly frustrating because I keep asking you to restate your posts since I supposedly keep misunderstanding them. I just asked you to do so again and instead you say it's weird that I don't understand your posts. This is just circular logic.

VOTE: Kyo
This might be scum. The inattentiveness thing is a very strange thing to push me on and I think town!Kyo knows I sometimes am just like that.

I know vibe checking is punishable by death at this point, but man the vibes on this read feel off. Do you really think Kyouko should go just because she made a push on you?

Uh no and I don't think this is a good faith attempt at repeating back what I said at all.

I didn't repeat anything back. How else am I supposed to interpret your post if your only accusation against Kyouko is "she should know that I don't pay attention"?

You said I voted Kyo for pushing me. If that's your interpretation you're severely misreading what I'm writing or trying to misrep me to make me look scummy.

Restate your accusation then. I'm standing by what I said, and I'm not gonna let you gaslight me into thinking I misread what was a very blatantly lazy retaliation post from you against Kyouko.

Proof that I asked you to and that you refused to do so.

This is where things start to heat up between Dwlee and Roden toward end of D1

Because if you can't figure out how to read my posts this is going to be terrible as long as we are both alive.

Refusing to cooperate is a scum tell then. Enjoy your likely Babysitter visit.

And this is where Roden implies Dwlee could get Babysitted. Maybe this was enough to scare scum!Dwlee, but again, since my overnight read, I've read more of Salsabil's D1 and seen that even outside of the times she was self-voting to avoid the DGB wagon, she has done other scummy things. It's no longer a case of "well she self-voted when we were eliminating scum", there are additional times where her votes and her reads and posts are inconsistent, especially so around N_M, and around Dwlee, who she keeps flip-flopping on. She goes from scum-reading Dwlee to sheeping him and then back, I think more than once.

Mini 2216 Scum PT Quotes

Okay cool. Honestly I'd appreciate any help in picking the night kill. Read all of day one if you can. It's pretty short and also a dumpster fire for us. I think I'm suspicious af rn and there are a lot of solid people townreading each other so I kind of want to set you up to end game if we can. There is a claimed roaming detective and we have to consider who should make the night kill and where.

Dwlee did not seem to consider shooting a claimed PR - in this game neither claimed PR died (we know Dwlee knew Manatee was softing FN)

I would agree that it is best to kill a widely townread person. I was thinking of whether I could claim town complex fruit vendor but I don't think that is plausible enough. If I tried it I would target boxxy to confirm him as a PR and then claim it. I don't think it works as a town claim though.

Roden was widely townread. A similarity, but in fairness, this is a lot of scum's reasoning when killing

Not sure about killing Kyo. Are we trying to set up Seanzie kind of? I was thinking it might be good to kill on the wagon and then maybe make the argument that the wagon is locktown and because I'm on it that argument might benefit us.

In this game, Roden is killed on the wagon, and then the deepwolf argument is made. This part in particular is more specifically similar to the current game than the previous quote, and is one of the most concerning things about Dwlee.

Lol Boxxy's read of me is so dead on accurate.

Boxxy's read on Dwlee from main thread of Mini 2216

Snipped quote

Reading Dwlee99 in iso, I don't like it. He seems a little too agreeable in how he joins up with powertown monkey/nom.

Goes from really liking my play

let's do boxxy guys. it's a good wagon

This is a super weird take?

I've liked boxxy's posting a lot.

I'm still trying to figure out nom though. I don't know if nom withholding the tell is inherently scummy but I'd really like to hear it if it's going to be justifying a scum read this early especially when it feels like cyrus town-slipped.

To joining the wagon once it had momentum but the content had not changed.

Okay, I've read over that interaction and I see what you're talking about now. I wish boxxy was here to respond and give some updates but I feel like him not is kind of by his own design.

VOTE: boxxy

Finally he hammers cyrus once it was a foregone conclusion. It just feels a bit too much like trying not to be objectionable and make friends with powertown.

VOTE: Dwlee99

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also a lot of the pushing on me felt like they wanted me to out who my mason partner was cause it obviously wasn't Saudade.

I just wanted you to play,

you're coming off as very passive and just sheeping other people

. Even when pressured you're just lightly flailing. I don't think you're necessarily scummy, but you're not really doing much to help town and the Kyokou read isn't good. Who do you suspect besides her?

UNVOTE:

I'm gonna write up a reads list and figure who to push from there. Idk if Dwlee is the right vote today.

What is similar from Boxxy's read in that game to Roden's here? I don't think there are any similarities. Boxxy's point was that I flip-flopped on him extremely easily to join the wagon on him, and I only hammered Cyrus because it was going to happen anyway. Both things were true. Roden's posts you quoted were mostly about me not explicitly explaining why his interpretation of my post was wrong.

The similarity is in green. Since taking these notes though I feel comfortable that it's a playstyle thing for you and the act itself is NAI. To get AI with it, the context of who your targets are, and your reads on them, matters.

I'm assuming in 2216's PT you were actually saying the assessment of your flip-flop is what was spot on? When I read it, I thought it was the buddying powertown and sheeping that you were referring to.

I dont think you have anything like that in this game off the top of my head. Your read on me has flipped at times (or has flipped to scummy and stayed, I'm not sure), but I dont think there is scum motivation in your change of opinion

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also 621 is what seemed similar to Boxxy's read to me. The other posts were just to illustrate that Roden was pushing you. I was going through Roden's iso looking for who he was pushing because I realized the Roden kill was probably the sole choice of the last living scum, and I think that is important in catching the last scum.

As I said in that post though, I think when I was reading Roden that I didnt actually find the true reason he died, rather, later on I found that he was advocating for you as flailing town, and Salsabil's reaction to that was questionable. Combine that with Salsabil's reaction to Marci saying on D2 that you're town for not hammering DGB, and that if anything omo looks worse. Salsa seems confused or upset that people do not want to mislim you immediately on D2. She probably killed Roden because he was your advocate. Salsa switches gears and pushes for omo instead at that point. I think Salsa was wanting to mislim you on D2 as it was in line with her D1 read, and I had made the case that you and omo were not voting DGB with the rest of town on D1.

Kinda like how I was as scum in 2213 (I think this was the number - Osuka modded the game) with Zyla. I just kept pushing Zyla D2, because she was my D1 scumread. It's easier to look town when you're being consistent, and by tunneling you can avoid taking stances on other players that you may need to mislim later.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Yes it was the flip-flop that I thought was accurate.

I will just reiterate that I would never kill Titus there because I think I was just as likely her shot as Omo was. I think that kill should basically locktown me.

I think I agree with your order @Math, it's the same as my order from yesterday, I think I'm just a little concerned about Marci maybe? She ~feels~ town and I think so does Kyo, which makes me think we just win off of killing Salsa, but if we are wrong on Salsa I'll be confused.

I view this as more a battle of PoE. We have two shots to get it right. Eventually we have to guess somewhere. If we are wrong we reread overnight and try again.

I think this, worst case scenario, is you and me deciding Kyo or Marci.

If this doesn't end with Salsa I'll be disappointed tbh

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Might be good to see what Marci has to say before hammer, in case Salsa doesnt end the game, but aside from that I dont have anything to add right now. Math will presumably say what he has to say about his Sunday reading on me Tomorrow if Salsa doesnt end this

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Y’all boring

Was this a scumclaim?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Me watching Dwlee rn

[ssbm_Kyouko]

!

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Are you scum, I'm finna /in a mini and cant til this game ends

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think by "kidding" she means she doesn't actually blame Looker and N_M for the difficulty of the game

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I had a dream over the weekend that dwlee was actually masons with saudade the whole time

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think we should give no lim a shot.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: no elim

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: no elim

I hate this vote. We know scum have to kill now or lose. Why would you cut day short before getting reads from everyone we can use tonight?

Getting reads from everyone right now will inform scum's kill decision. I don't think anyone but me has been rereading overnight anyways, and I did my reread last night. I'm ready for final 3, don't need additional reads from anyone.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think the standard rule is still to require a majority for no lim - I don't think the rules in this game stated that no lim would be hammered by 50%

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Mmm that's not logically consistent with what you were saying earlier

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I actually thought the norm in repeated no kill/no elim was for mafia to win and town to lose, not for a draw or for both to lose, but knowing it's lose lose I'm prepared to go through 3 no lims without discussion to force mafia to lose or make the least possibly informed decision

I was going to just try no lim once and see if mafia would kill

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Marci can you hammer no lim?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Or @T3 can you come up with some kind of compromise so we dont have to wait over 3 weeks to finish this if scum decide to no kill? Maybe allow 50% to hammer no lim once 50% of the day deadline has passed or something so we can finish a bit quicker?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'll revote then, 1 more vote is hammer so dwlee you can do it when you're ready to end the day

VOTE: no lim

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Pls send your speediest nights to t3

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Wow it's really come to this then

[ssbm_Kyouko]

So I had decided yesterday that dwlee was town and most likely Marci was the last scum, I did not read anymore last night but I did read 2 nights ago and that's why I wanted to keep quiet yesterday.

Math keeps me alive because deepwolf. I keep math alive because deepwolf.

Math what conclusions did you draw from your sunday read from 1-2 Sundays ago?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I also dont kill Marci though as scum because I just went to 3p lylo with her in OMB where we were both town and successfully convinced her to vote scum. I think scum!me is the only one who would not be threatened in 3p by her being indecisive

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Additionally I do not kill Roden n1 due to his D1 reads, and if I wanted to, I could have just not started a wagon on DGB

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Math why is it Dwlee, and Dwlee why is it math?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Lol you should be telling me why it's math tbh

Because math hasn't actually solved anything this game and for all he said he would be reading on that sunday he didnt actually read any of it. He went through the trouble of asking for my.scumgames but didnt follow up. He talks about proper procedures and offers mechanical advice, but doesnt actually scumhunt.

I was going to have you two.convince me of who it was if Math had actually read, but it seems that was just him looking busy

VOTE: math

Gl dwlee

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Lmao so when I summoned voltron to destroy DGB its partner literally bussed with the 6th vote

[ssbm_Kyouko]

You kept me as a "town lock" because you thought I'd never suspect you and you knew I'd never be elimmed. It's a free useless read.

You spam the thread with a lot of words to seem like you are hunting but you're not. It's a common deep wolf strategy as people tend to town read lots and lots of words and effort versus judging the player. It's an inherent bias.

Unfortunately for you dwlee has seen how much I talk as scum

[ssbm_Kyouko]

And hes seen me casing as town before, this game's lasted long enough that large 233 and chrono trigger chronicles have ended

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I disagree that Lookers behavior is town indicative, if anything its just his personality trait and his prefered way of expressing himself

I dont like not mafia, which in my opinion is a great basis for elimination who in?

VOTE: maxthefox

VOTE: dwlee99
why'd you sheepe me bro

VOTE: omo

VOTE: Titus

always down to lynch not_mafia tbh

Saudade is down to shade mafia but is not down to vote them btw

[ssbm_Kyouko]

He hadn't done anything scummy besides self-vote, which is normal behavior for him, and I could see reasons that you, marci, Salsa, and Math could be scum. N_M was a policy elim for everyone on board (except Math, just bussing) and he happened to be scum

[ssbm_Kyouko]

oh and he crumbed doctor, I had forgotten about that - but I felt that was a relatively weak reason compared to Marci, Salsa, Math, or you

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Never played with N_M before to my knowledge

[ssbm_Kyouko]

The police are coming for you Mana

also Saudade crumbed cop

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Not Mafia is hammer happy.

Not Mafia has no hammers. Means he is much more likely to be scum.

This is the first time you're providing this evidence. If you had told me this 2 days ago I would have read N_M games to look for this pattern, confirmed it if it's really true, and happily voted him out. You didn't provide evidence though because it looks better for you the longer I resist the wagon

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm pretty sure nobody on the N_M wagon had an actual reason to be on it, everyone voting him was doing so for what he had not done. I don't think anyone cased him, aside from me pointing out he had softed doctor twice, and if someone had claimed vigilante I would have turboed him.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Not Mafia is hammer happy.

Not Mafia has no hammers. Means he is much more likely to be scum.

This is the first time you're providing this evidence. If you had told me this 2 days ago I would have read N_M games to look for this pattern, confirmed it if it's really true, and happily voted him out. You didn't provide evidence though because it looks better for you the longer I resist the wagon

Correct.

If you provide damning evidence scum and town hop on and it’s game over for reads.

Since Not Mafia wasn’t playing it was more important to see who resisted it.

How is it important? Anyone who resisted it would have had no reason to vote him because no case had been provided. If he had been town, there would be no information gained by seeing who resisted it. Scum could have been resisting for towncred, and town could have been resisting because they felt other players were more likely to be scum. The way you phrased these posts indicates that you withheld information with the expectation that N_M would flip scum, and with the plan to push anyone who resisted the wagon in upcoming days.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

What's more, if you don't provide evidence and nobody has provided evidence, it is easy to bus N_M as scum because nobody is running around demanding explanations for why anyone voted him now that he's flipped. There was an unspoken agreement that seemed to be in the air that he had done so little that no case was needed. It would have been easy to bus N_M. If I were scum, it means I chose to bus DGB on D1 after 4/5 viable wagons on town. Why would I not bus N_M on D4 and get on with it? I'd just be in ELO with Dwlee and Marci now, maybe even Manatee and Marci tbh. Math didn't have either of the conftown's on his side, but I think as scum I would have easily won a Manatee/Marci ELO

[ssbm_Kyouko]

NM was scum by PoE.

For you maybe, because you were in the POE that Math, myself, and conftown were working from. You had a pool of 3 and 2 mislims left, so fypov there was no risk in voting N_M. For me, I had 4 in the POE, a sneaking suspicion on Math, and 2 mislims. It was much harder for me to POE down to N_M than you, even after I read enough to determine that Marci was actually town after all, which I had done on D4

[ssbm_Kyouko]

NM was scum by PoE.

For you maybe, because you were in the POE that Math, myself, and conftown were working from. You had a pool of 3 and 2 mislims left, so fypov there was no risk in voting N_M. For me, I had 4 in the POE, a sneaking suspicion on Math, and 2 mislims. It was much harder for me to POE down to N_M than you, even after I read enough to determine that Marci was actually town after all, which I had done on D4

Also, we've now seen that only 1 of the 4 in the POE were scum, so it wasn't actually a strong POE with 2 scum left and 6 unconfirmed players

[ssbm_Kyouko]

conftown

voters that were on the end of day DGB wagon and are not confirmed

confscum

Left myself yellow for everyone's convenience

Day 1 Votes

Votecount 1:

DrippingGoofball

(3):

marcistar

,

ManateeDude

,

Titus

Titus

(2):

Roden

,

ssbm_Kyouko

omo

(2):

MathBlade

,

MaxTheFox

ssbm_Kyouko

(1):

Dwlee99

Salsabil Faria

(1):

geraintm

geraintm

(1):

Salsabil Faria

MaxTheFox

(1):

omo

Not_Mafia

(1):

Not_Mafia

Votecount 2:

DrippingGoofball

(4):

marcistar

,

ManateeDude

,

Titus

,

ssbm_Kyouko

omo

(2):

MaxTheFox

,

Salsabil Faria

MaxTheFox

(2):

MathBlade

,

Dwlee99

Titus

(1);

Roden

Salsabil Faria

(1):

geraintm

Not_Mafia

(1):

Not_Mafia

marcistar

(1):

omo

Votecount 3:

omo

(4):

MaxTheFox

,

Salsabil Faria

,

DrippingGoofball

,

MathBlade

Roden

(4):

ssbm_Kyouko

,

omo

,

Dwlee99

,

ManateeDude

DrippingGoofball

(2):

marcistar

,

Titus

Salsabil Faria

(1):

geraintm

Not_Mafia

(1):

Not_Mafia

ManateeDude

(1):

Roden

Votecount 4:

Dwlee99

(4):

Salsabil Faria

,

ssbm_Kyouko

,

Titus

,

ManateeDude

ManateeDude

(2):

omo

,

Dwlee99

omo

(2):

MaxTheFox

,

DrippingGoofball

DrippingGoofball

(1):

marcistar

Salsabil Faria

(1):

geraintm

Not_Mafia

(1):

Not_Mafia

marcistar

(1):

Roden

Votecount 5:

marcistar

(5):

Roden

,

ssbm_Kyouko

,

Salsabil Faria

,

omo

,

DrippingGoofball

omo

(3):

MaxTheFox

,

ManateeDude

,

MathBlade

ManateeDude

(1):

Dwlee99

Dwlee99

(1):

Titus

DrippingGoofball

(1):

marcistar

Salsabil Faria

(1):

geraintm

Not_Mafia

(1):

Not_Mafia

Votecount 6:

marcistar

(4):

Roden

,

ssbm_Kyouko

,

Salsabil Faria

,

omo

,

MathBlade

(MathBlade added to the Marci wagon in this VC quote because they voted Marci shortly afterward and were on the wagon at its height)

omo

(2):

MaxTheFox

,

MathBlade

ManateeDude

(1):

Dwlee99

Dwlee99

(1):

Titus

DrippingGoofball

(1):

marcistar

Salsabil Faria

(1):

geraintm

Votecount 7:

DrippingGoofball

(4):

marcistar

,

ssbm_Kyouko

,

ManateeDude

,

Roden

Salsabil Faria

(2):

geraintm

,

Salsabil Faria

marcistar

(1):

MathBlade

omo

(1):

MaxTheFox

ManateeDude

(1):

Dwlee99

Dwlee99

(1):

Titus

Not_Mafia

(1):

Not_Mafia

Roden

(1):

DrippingGoofball

Votecount 8:

DrippingGoofball

(7):

marcistar

,

ssbm_Kyouko

,

ManateeDude

,

Roden

,

Titus

,

MathBlade

,

omo

Roden

(2):

DrippingGoofball

,

Dwlee99

Salsabil Faria

(2):

geraintm

,

Salsabil Faria

omo

(1):

MaxTheFox

Not_Mafia

(1):

Not_Mafia

Day 2 Votes

Votecount 1:

omo

(2):

ManateeDude

,

ssbm_Kyouko

Votecount 2:

MaxTheFox

(3):

omo

,

Dwlee99

,

ManateeDude

omo

(2):

MaxTheFox

,

Salsabil Faria

Dwlee99

(1):

ssbm_Kyouko

Votecount 3:

MaxTheFox

(4):

omo

,

Dwlee99

,

ManateeDude

,

Salsabil Faria

omo

(2):

MaxTheFox

Dwlee99

(2):

ssbm_Kyouko

,

Titus

Votecount 4:

MaxTheFox

(6):

omo

,

Dwlee99

,

ManateeDude

,

Salsabil Faria

,

ssbm_Kyouko

,

marcistar

omo

(2):

MaxTheFox

,

Titus

Salsabil Faria

(1):

MathBlade

So on D1 Math does not vote DGB until it is inevitable as there was a deadline flashwagon on DGB. The only reasoning he provides is "Ditto" in response to Titus saying she TRs everybody on the wagon. He was not on the early day DGB wagon with the rest of the townblock.

On D2 Math doesn't vote for Salsabil until it is too late for it to change the Max wagon's course. Going to go look at his case/reasoning on why he voted Salsabil D2

[ssbm_Kyouko]

@Math:
1.

How is it important?

2. How did you get

this

from 2277?

NM was scum by PoE.

For you maybe, because you were in the POE that Math, myself, and conftown were working from. You had a pool of 3 and 2 mislims left, so fypov there was no risk in voting N_M. For me, I had 4 in the POE, a sneaking suspicion on Math, and 2 mislims. It was much harder for me to POE down to N_M than you, even after I read enough to determine that Marci was actually town after all, which I had done on D4

You mean you lock town me earlier when it suited you.

You were the one in control of the PoE/gamestate not me.

Also, not sure how or why me being in control of the PoE/gamestate is relevant, but it is an incorrect conclusion. You were in control that day. I tried to convince everyone to vote Dwlee or Salsa, possibly Marci early on that day, but in the end we all voted for N_M, who you had been bussing all day. If anyone was in control of the gamestate, it was you. Again though, I don't see how this is relevant. Just pointing out it's wrong.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

oh @Dwlee another thing, you saw Koba peg me as scum instantly not once but twice, and in this game he says I'm town. Still looking at other stuff but I can get details on this later if you don't recall it

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Not Mafia is hammer happy.

Not Mafia has no hammers. Means he is much more likely to be scum.

This is the first time you're providing this evidence. If you had told me this 2 days ago I would have read N_M games to look for this pattern, confirmed it if it's really true, and happily voted him out. You didn't provide evidence though because it looks better for you the longer I resist the wagon

Correct.

If you provide damning evidence scum and town hop on and it’s game over for reads.

Since Not Mafia wasn’t playing it was more important to see who resisted it.

How is it important?

Anyone who resisted it would have had no reason to vote him because no case had been provided. If he had been town, there would be no information gained by seeing who resisted it. Scum could have been resisting for towncred, and town could have been resisting because they felt other players were more likely to be scum. The way you phrased these posts indicates that you withheld information with the expectation that N_M would flip scum, and with the plan to push anyone who resisted the wagon in upcoming days.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Your entire argument about the DGB wagon was “Math has a life therefore he is scum” Lmao

I never said anything like this, can you quote whatever it is you are "paraphrasing" (twisting) and explain how you got from my post to your misrep?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

@Math:
1.

How is it important?

2. How did you get

this

from 2277?

NM was scum by PoE.

For you maybe, because you were in the POE that Math, myself, and conftown were working from. You had a pool of 3 and 2 mislims left, so fypov there was no risk in voting N_M. For me, I had 4 in the POE, a sneaking suspicion on Math, and 2 mislims. It was much harder for me to POE down to N_M than you, even after I read enough to determine that Marci was actually town after all, which I had done on D4

You mean you lock town me earlier when it suited you.

You were the one in control of the PoE/gamestate not me.

Also, not sure how or why me being in control of the PoE/gamestate is relevant, but it is an incorrect conclusion. You were in control that day. I tried to convince everyone to vote Dwlee or Salsa, possibly Marci early on that day, but in the end we all voted for N_M, who you had been bussing all day. If anyone was in control of the gamestate, it was you. Again though, I don't see how this is relevant. Just pointing out it's wrong.

How is who resisted a prob scum wagon important? Lol.

You indeed were in control. I stated facts calmly and convinced people NM. You flailed after.

I don't know how it's important who resisted N_M, who was not probscum, but was policy/poe (a 1 in 4 poe, so literally not a good chance that he would flip scum via poe) - you're the one that said it was important. I'm asking you to explain how it is important:

Since Not Mafia wasn’t playing it was more important to see who resisted it.

Oh I see. I was in control, but we eliminated your preferred elimination, we ignored 2-3 of my preferred eliminations, and I had to compromise on your preference. You have an unusual sense of what being in control means. Could you explain how I was in control?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Hi I'm a miller

Would you happen to be...Informed?

informed of DN

What is DN?

Oh no.

I'm not sure what DN is but why do I feel a sinking feeling shit's going sideways?

A Death Neighborizer!?

Deez Nuts

But yeah it feels like RVS is going on a bit too long.

Agreed.

VOTE: Titus

Town Titus wants out of RVS ASAP. Not seeing that here.

general consensus seems to be a dislike of their entry which i think is pretty nai

translation: stop wagoning my partner for wrong reasons

Hero solve: Max + Manatee + Marci

How serious is this?

Didn't get an answer to this.

{Looker, Roden, ???}

Kinda feeling Looker Titus +1 here. Maybe Roden for the 3P.

This is the first vote and what follows it up after Math replaces in. His starting point is that Titus, Looker (DGB), +1 could be the scum. I kept reading his ISO and there is no other progression on DGB until it is time to vote it in the flashwagon. So if Math both wants to avoid a no lim and is presumably still SRing DGB/Looker, then why is this the reason he provides? Also, if his reads were Titus/DGB +1, then why after he stopped SRing Titus did he start flopping around onto all other sorts of wagons without addressing his previous SR on DGB/Looker at all?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Just realized the pedit stopped this post before I went to my next one:

ATTENTION ALL VANITY VOTERS:

Dwlee99 (1):

Titus

DrippingGoofball (1):

marcistar

Salsabil Faria (1):

geraintm

Not_Mafia (1):

Not_Mafia

You don't want to miss the 5:15 to Limtown.

Owo is a vanity wagon. Much as I would love their elim they aren’t for today.

Koba’s consistency is bad as either alignment and the best way to read them is under pressure and when they are under pressure they get yelly and screamy. While Owo is my top wagon I would love to elim best not today unfortunately because if we try odds are we no elim.

Remember when I caught DGB with 962 and a bad ISO? 977 is looking a lot like 962 in retrospect. Also, the things you were posting around then indicated you wanted to keep the vote on one of the current wagons

to avoid a no lim

, but when you joined DGB's wagon, it was not

to avoid a no lim

. I think you were just looking for some towncred since it was too late to stop the wagon.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Because A) I don’t do read walls and B) was communicating to Titus Manatee was friendly neighbor

The wagon had steam I didn’t know if Titus saw the crumb.

Like this is seriously pointless. I know you’re scum and you have to shade me.

Why are you so concerned about trying to make a gotcha versus waiting to see what questions Dwlee has?

You look like floundering scum here and are literally sinking yourself.

What's funny is scum!S_S tried the same thing on me in OMB. He tried to just sit back and coast through ELO and wouldn't present any evidence, he also said I wasn't doing myself any favors.

You dont even see the problem with 2297 though. You had a scumread on Looker since the first set of reads you posted upon repping in but you voted for several other players instead. Then, when you did vote for DGB, you didnt say anything like "yeah I also SR DGB because xyz", you said "Ditto" (I TR everyone on this wagon). Your SR on DGB was always fake

Btw Dwlee I have a huge wall coming on D3 analysis, as well as more individual points coming that all stack and stack evidence against Math if you're not already convinced by what's come out today

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Just posting from the potty rn and the wall is on my pc

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Alright I was just rereading D3 to compare it to Mathblade's narrative of D3 found here:

I mean scum resist scum wagon. It’s kinda obvious.

I start the day with a Marci + Salsa
You buddy me with Marci + Salsa + NM
Then you call for mass claim
The day was dominated by you then me and G were not mafia pushers.
Just because the final elim was on not mafia does not mean “in control”

That elim was hard fought for

Note mostly that Math is saying the elim was hard fought for. Throughout these quotes, you'll see that N_M is only ever a policy elimination for Math. You'll also see that just before deadline when I was pushing for a Salsabil wagon I had 3 town and Math willing to vote Salsa, meaning if I were scum with N_M, I could have flipped the wagon onto Salsa right at the end of the day using Dwlee, Manatee, and Marci. Math was also willing to hammer and in this hypothetical I am scum with N_M, so I even would have had 4 townies not counting myself or N_M willing to elim Salsa. Instead I hammered N_M.

Spoiler: Day3 (The big wall)

I am kinda thinking Marci Salsa.

That naked hammer was sus as fuck.

And got your message Manatee. You’re still a friendly neighbor.

So far it checks out, Math is starting with Marci/Salsa

A cursory scan of Marci's ISO to look at why her vote stayed on Looker/DGB all day reveals this - while looking in there I paused for Salsabil interactions. If she is scum, Salsa could be the last, and I think vice versa holds true.

So the left overs are your scum reads then? Between the four of them, who do you think we should vote?

i dont like pushing my opinions onto people
-
dwlee and drippinggoofball are the ones i would choose between the 4
but then i feel bad for dwlee
so im fine with my current vote

This is a really weak reason to stay on DFG. The 4 Roden asks about, for context, are DGB, Dwlee, geraintm, and Manatee. Town!Marci used the "I feel bad for [a replaced-in player] getting voted out" in Owner's Market Blitz recently, and I mistakenly thought that meant she was scum with the replaced-in player. But as town, she didn't vote that player. Dwlee is a replace-in, but so is DGB. The "feel bad" doesn't apply to DGB here though, so there is a difference here that initially appears like a similarity to her last towngame with me.

Marci can you do a reads list? Claim (if you haven't)

im just a vt, so its not too much of a loss to town

Not_Mafia -

not too sure

MathBlade -

I had good vibes on saudade (238, 326, 412, and his stuff about u titus seems pretty good) and i have decent vibes on mathblade > i like his like catching up on things alot, though im not really too sure where they stand rn
i think hes just genuinely putting thoughts there, and not just trying to whatevers easiest. so this is prob like townlean

oʍo -

their early game stuff seemed like they were just trying to move stuff forward, the vibes tell me theres nothing with bad intentions there. (463, 464, 853, 854 specifically good vibes, if u want something stronger than just pure vibes ) townread.

Roden -

(222, 294) im not usually used to people throwingaround the term "scum claiming" so easily so these originally felt weird to me, 244 originally to me seemed like he was just doing it cuz it was whats popular, originally i didn't really like him much. As the game went on though, i realized its just I don't vibe well with his playstyle so im not too confident placing a read here. I could see him being anything.

geraintm -

idk

DrippingGoofball -

originally i didn't like looker because it looked like looker was just making excuses, 206 and its correction in 209 was goodish tho.
drippinggoofball really just hasn't done too much, which makes me comfortable with my vote <3 <3 i don't know any meta on them so i cant be like "meta meta, hes town" or anything, so im just keeping at it until i either get what i wanna see or i die x3 <3 (657, 875) i don't see too much of an explanation

Dwlee99 -

535 by itself doesn't seem too weird, but it just stands out alot in their iso. i think thats where they really started like putting their foot into the game..? i also don't like how long they let the mason thing with saudade go on. i like (619, 761), dislike 703 since they dont rlly explain much. generally, his posts look good on quick glance, but i think they could be easily faked as scum.

MaxTheFox -

im not too sure on how to read them. i don't agree with their read on owo, i dont see anything wrong with it though, i think theyre something like a "only time can tell" sorta thing.

Titus -

tbh im not sure what a babysitter is but like ill trust it i think.. though im a bit confused on the timing of ur claim

ssbm_Kyouko -

i think ssbm_kyouko is really good at being a townleader often ^.^ i think theyre townie the vibes are just there. they seem rlly focused on me/manatee so i hope they have a backup plan if things go wrong :'(

ManateeDude -

they do alot of short posts and change votes alot, im not too sure how i feel about her anymore tbh. but like i had a townread here originally, but i just like.. the vote changes feel weird and sometimes like theyre taking opportunities.

Salsabil Faria -

i remember my townread on her felt stronger before, but isoing her doesn't really keep up those same vibes. i would say townie vibes, but keep her between the lower rankings of the townie vibes imo. alot of her posts aren't rlly doing much, and her post count makes it seem like shes in thread more than she actually has been (in my mind at least).
im still traumatized from the exploder game
(so lower ranks of the townie reads for her).
^ theres some ideas of the players, not really good and def not spicy at all tho
man that was kinda alot of work and took a bunch of hrs

Because town has zero motivation to settle and let themselves be elim'd.

Scum may do so to invoke WIFOM, or to make the exact argument you're making. Because yes, why would scum just lay down and die?.

i often do it as town for not so good reasons
but sometimes ill want to do it just so that my townreads dont get picked on.

Thing is, you can't claim you're not fighting back. You've been sprinkling suspicion on others throughout all of Day 1.

wheres me sprinkling suspicion on others..? i prob wasnt doing it to defend myself tho since i remember never really feeling like i needed to defend myself much earlier

Your associative with Max isn't direct but through Manatee. Your statement though implies you checked your ISO to fact check yourself, which is weird since you should just know if you talked much with Max or not.

i dont think i checked my iso at that point, but if i did it was prob cuz i was confused.. i have the worst memory

I will say though that your defense here is actually more reasonable than I expected. I'm just not seeing the town motivation for using scum tactics like buddying and distancing, nor for why you haven't really pushed your biggest scum read.

doesn't really matter too much, but i do buddy often to people who i feel like

have

to be town.. kinda gets me in an awkward spot when i rethink on them tho
dont really know why i do it.

Of the wagons that have come up so far who do you think could be scum?

lowkey don't remember all the wagons, the one i do remember (dwlee) i think could easily flip scum tho.

If you can’t find any who do you think would be the deep wolf pushing you in that scenario?

don't really think much of my wagon is sus (916) but if theres one on there its roden, but i wouldn't be too confident to put the title on him that fast.

Open the spoiler for a D1 readslist from her

It almost checks out. I don't see how this is buddying, but I am looking at Marci with Salsa and see it as possible. We're only a few pages or less into D3 though and already halfway through Math's summary. I think he just skimmed the beginning of D3 and filled the rest in with what is convenient for him.

i thought townblock was kyo/me/marci/titus +tentative omo & MB

I think Marci + Dwlee now possibly.

Kinda wanna see other people’s posts and see what they think of Dwlee’s recent posts.

Just including to show that Math did not start the day entirely looking at N_M/Salsa/Marci as he was saying

I'm no longer doubting Math, now when considering Marci's DGB vote. I also think scum!Marci is TMIing her partners in RVS if it's {DGB, Marci, Salsabil}.

Titus was also suspicious of Dwlee/omo as a unit I feel like, though she did associate omo and Math, with omo being more likely. I think it's clear her Babysit was meant to be insurance to kill a scumread in the event of her death. I think scum!Math and scum!Dwlee might have been more careful in case Titus targeted one of them. I don't think the scumteam felt they were at risk of being targeted.

That really leaves 2 of Marci, Salsabil, N_M

The reason Titus did not die N1 may have been because Saudade was scumreading Titus D1 and Math was still in the process of mending Titus's read on his slot. D2 I think Titus had been convinced of Math's towniness. Math says he doesn't bus for no reason, the reason he would bus DGB is to buddy Titus.

We should probably mass claim today BTW

While I do call for a massclaim, technically Dwlee calls for it first and Math has either forgotten or omitted this.

Dude stop with the trolling or I just policy you.

If you’re not going to try now then I have 0 assurances you’re going to try in elo.

Consider this as your last warning.

Stop trolling or die.

Going to count the number of times Math states N_M is a policy elim starting here. 1.

VOTE: Not Mafia

Math then votes N_M (policy)

I'm just gonna tunnel Manatee Dude

Good luck with tunneling confirmed town I won’t help you spam to get out of claiming.

Until you play the vote stays.

This reads like Math is really trying hard to dig his scumbuddy out of the dirt. "Good luck with tunneling confirmed town, I won't help you..." sounds like the kind of thing you say to a teammate that is not playing to win. Math is actually frustrated that N_M is not playing to win here.

VOTE: not mafia

I wasn’t Kyo and if someone had I would have voted them probably almost instantly barring a really good claim. Because this is a normal and not a theme game these tend to be lower powered affairs. All other PRs claimed/flipped are confirmed town.

So if something like say a 1 shot vig existed it would end up having a huge protown swing given scum vigs can’t exist in normals (I think that change was made).

I really think Marci or NM should be the elim today.

Still is angling for other elims besides N_M

I want to mudder (sic) the cow.

If that means vote out NM, why not join my spicy Not Mafia wagon?

Asks Dwlee to join

I don't know where the vote count is at.

Can you like make an unofficial one? That response is pretty bad.

Says his reason for not joining is bad

I would say based on these last few pages your stock would diminish greatly if Salsa is town and Marci is scum because you actively tried to derail the Marci elim. Before today if you had asked me that question I would say Dwlee then NM then you but if that was the case throw you all in a pressure cooker and see who comes up.

I know this is a non answer but if we elim Salsa and he’s town that’s a scary proposition here because I have had a feeling a deep wolf was on DGB’s hammer and

not having been able to sort there really irks me

.

Not having been able to sort there really irks Math. Yet, he asked me for my scumgames, he asked me for my best deepwolf game. I gave them to him, he said he would read them in his Sunday read, but he didn't. He's making a show of being frustrated, but doesn't actually put any effort into solving me.

I would rather policy NM or just do Marci
What’s your case on Salsa. I don’t have experience with them.

Can you sell me on it?

+1 to policy. Total 2. Also looking to elim Marci, or now Salsa. But he won't case Salsa, he wants me to do the dirty work for him. You'll see this is a pattern as well if you read in Math's ISO.

VOTE: NM

Now that Dwlee does vote N_M, when previously MAth wanted him to vote N_M, Math scumreads Dwlee for voting N_M. Dwlee had specified he was waiting for the VC and this vote comes right after the VC does.

VOTE: Unvote

I don’t like Dwlee’s naked hop on after having had plenty of time to do a VC or react to cases.

I just can’t tell if this is lazy Dwlee or scum Dwlee. I probably will be busy most of today but will read as I can.

Yet still Math is using the fact that Dwlee didn;t do his own VC as a point against him, when Math already knows Dwlee doesn't want to do an unofficial VC and wants to wait for the real VC.

Why am I scum?

You are normally a bit more engaged in the game by this stage.
I don't think town not mafia would just sit there and let their elimination happen, they'd realise they need to be more active and have a few more thoughts. But we've had nothing from you.

I also think unless you turn it on in spectacular fashion, you'd only be doing it now because you've been called out so much. I think you are in a lose lose situation

This is Geraintm's case on N_M. The only case presented on N_M the whole day. amd what is Math's response?

I see that G but it’s still policy.

Not mafia didn’t have posts on site far as I can tell. It could be because scum or RL it’s kinda one of those lines I just don’t cross.

In an ideal world we just elim both Not Mafia and Marci before elo but we can’t. Like I find it odd that Kyo is saying Salsa is scummier than Not Mafia and Marci and I want to hear that explanation.

Boom, you guessed it, it's... POLICY for the 3rd time, even when presented with a case from conftown. Confotwn that Math is going to appeal to later today. He'll appeal that geraintm and Manatee should be leading the way (doing Math's dirty work for him)

If there is a vigilante or any town killing role I put the odds that "babysitter" is scum north of 80%, regardless of Titus' scummy day play.

VOTE: dwlee

Dwlee/N_M last 2 scum

I can be sold on this group except one thing:

Why were you so sure on Salsa, what did you think about her? This sudden shift seems odd now that I ask you for a case.

I am kinda nervous on policying NM but if we don’t have a rock star case it’s what we should do.

I don’t give a rats behind about “putting scum!me” to bed. Anyone who has played with scum!me knows that paranoia is healthy.

I am getting kinda paranoid of you/Not Mafia.

Now Math is possibly sold on N_M/Dwlee, but is feigning concern about my shift on Salsa. I say feigning because when I address his concern, he doesn't respond. We'll see that coming up.

I really would love to hear from G/Manatee about Kyo’s change in read.

I think then based on they say we either flash NM or not.

Something doesn’t sit right and I am not sure how to say it so I am just going to let this sit and see where G and Manatee come in.

Now he's wanting the conftown to push me for him, he's literally admitting he's going to wait and see where the conftown lead. Super scummy here to not just present his own arguments against me if he is truly SRing me. What this shows is that he is afraid that confotwn won't agree with him and that he will get turned against if he pushes me. I never show that fear or caution when pushing Math. Math is afraid scum.

I really would love to hear from G/Manatee about Kyo’s change in read.

I think then based on they say we either flash NM or not.

Something doesn’t sit right and I am not sure how to say it so I am just going to let this sit and see where G and Manatee come in.

Give your best shot at explaining it? I dont think anything should not be sitting right

I ask him to explain for himself rather than waiting for G/Manatee because I can smell his shit

Also have you looked even briefly at large 233?

He asked me for some meta on scum!me and I provided it to him, so I was checking if he had read it - I think he says he didn't yet but would catch up Sunday/overNight

I really would love to hear from G/Manatee about Kyo’s change in read.

I think then based on they say we either flash NM or not.

Something doesn’t sit right and I am not sure how to say it so I am just going to let this sit and see where G and Manatee come in.

Give your best shot at explaining it? I dont think anything should not be sitting right

I'm not sure how to, but if you're going against your top town read someone who can't be scum to your eyes, there should be a known justifiable reason or at least a double check.
And no I haven't. It's super late for me and I have work in the morning.

My point also doesn't involve 233. I'm trying to figure out if you swapped because you're town and had that notion or if you're scum and realized support for Salsa wasn't going to happen and then went to Not Mafia either as a mis elim or a bus. I'm trying to get to your brain state of what made you so sure before your swap to wanting Not Mafia.

I will look at that though when time permits.

To be clear I want Dwlee but think numerically that N_M may be the safest bet because he hasn't been involved and will be a liability to town in MELO if he and Dwlee are both town. Going for N_M today, for me, is insurance in case I am wrong about dwlee. I feel confident in Dwlee though so if I can get a wagon through here, I will. If I cant, my compromise is N_M because regardless of his alignment he is a good elim.

I'd also like you to respond on dwlee specifically because if we lim dwlee today and he flips red, N_M is tomorrow. If N_M flips town tomorrow, I will be in MELO with you, salsabil, and Marci. I have reasons to think Marci and possibly Salsabil are not scum with Dwlee, but dont have them for you. If we make it this far, I want to have your responses down now so I can look back on them and consider your equity with dwlee. If you're town, this will help town win in MELO, so you should respond whether you're town or scum. If town, to help me sort MELO, and if scum, to appear helpful.

Here is where I state my intent to vote N_M at the deadline. I follow through with this when the time comes.

There’s way too many posts for me to read and catch up on before work so just answering G’s question and will get to the rest at lunch / after work.

Regarding Not Mafia I agree with the sentiment. I however can’t read a trolly player like Not Mafia to save my life. I think if we are going to policy him it has to be today because if we hit town today instead then tomorrow policy elims are off the table and we have to hit scum.

Here Math admits he can't read N_M to save his life, so when he said that scum!N_M doesn't have hammers and town!N_M does have hammers, that was just a lie. also this is another +1 so I think 4 times he's said N_M is policy. Really "fighting hard" for this lim I see.

So no, I haven’t read all the wordy words because 10 minute break but this is where my thought is at

Kyo + Salsa are pretty much gunning for Dwlee.
So if we elim not mafia and town or scum since Not mafia isn’t really being talked about in context of not mafia I don’t see that changing.

So Nm town flip a conf Townie dies
Then tomorrow we are either in MELO with two players set on Dwlee or we are in double elim two players set on Dwlee

I know it’s probably somewhere but what are your current reads Dwlee?

Math skims over all my case on Dwlee - because it's TVT. Then he asks Dwlee for his reads (even though we shouldn't be discussing our reads so close to ELO)

So from your POV best case scenario NM is elimmed flips scum (I am not going to consider NM town here because the next question means we lose)

Then assume you are elimmed

Then me 1 conf town and kyo/salsa/Marci left.

Assume conf town dead and then the scum in that three kill in kyo/salsa/Marci as I am incredibly easy to buddy as evidenced by the townreads.

What do you think elo looks like and who kills whom?

And saying scum kill me is not an option. You’re not allowed to change the parameters of the hypothetical I am hunting this for a reason

Now Math specifically leads Dwlee into some final 4 scenarios to see where Dwlee's mindset is. He's setting up the Final 3-4 right here.

Okay so it's final 4 of you, Kyo, salsa, Marci. Then there's a no lim and you're off limits to kill for some reason.

I think Kyo would kill Marci because she could paint Salsa as DGB/NM's teammate pretty easily due to the lack of focus that I think Salsa has shown in sorting those slots.

I think Salsa would kill Kyo because Marci is an easier flip. But maybe she WIFOMs it and kills Marci now that I'm saying this.

I think Marci would kill Kyo for the same reasons Kyo would kill Marci. Salsa seems like an easy flip here.

That's what I think in that scenario, but I think you would be night killed if this actually played out because it gives way less info as to who is scum and keeps two townies able to be eliminated.

Note that Dwlee thinks I would kill Marci and that Marci would kill me. This is really where Math turns to buddying Dwlee and stops pushing him for the rest of the day. He's spotted that I have hard pushed town Dwlee and he is preparing to bring me and Dwlee to the end.

Why not? If you die and town wins who cares?

It's a waste of an elimination

Not to me it’s not.

I think it’s likely because no one is defending Not Mafia he flips scum.

We elim you, either the game is over or we go to 4P elo.

At this point we decide to no elim or just play it out.

I think this gives us the best chance at winning. I think Dwlee is town here but I am not confident enough to stake the game on it but I think this is what we do.

Here Math says that

because

nobody is defending N_M it's likely he flips scum. But I've been hard pushing other players all day. So why is it not, "because Kyo is defending N_M, it's likely Kyo is scum if N_M is scum"? It's because Math is saving me for the final mislim, because once I flip town, he's toast. There's too much deepwolf paranoia in the game for him to win if I die.

I think NM > Salsa > Kyo wins right now (assuming NM flips scum)

Another reason why Math brings me and Dwlee to final 3

But muuuuuuuuuuuuuuum I don't wanna

First off I am a guy.

Second off you’re really not making a case you’re town here.

This isn't policy but it's also not "you're scum because x", it's again hedging on pulling N_M out of the ground. Math still has not committed to SRing N_M because he's always poised to flip if N_M actually tries and can get himself TRed.

The hammer on DGB never got town cred >> Owo was in the PoE
Not wanting to vote them can be spun either way.

Salsa self voting I am kinda ignoring because it’s antitown if she is towb and if she is scum she wants her elim.

Math is ignoring Salsa self-voting but doesn't acknowledge N_M's self-voting.

I know there’s a lot of words and stuff I am supposed to read since work just ended I am just not feeling it.

I think we should do NM today since he’s not playing. If y’all feel more confident in a read do it. I just don’t.

VOTE: Not Mafia

policy +1: total 5?

ok im going to preface this with saying i do not believe there is any reality where kyo flips wolf here. im not going to entertain any theories involving flipping her and i really do not see how kyos positioning at EoD ever is scum alongside Goofball. feel free to argue but this is something i'll remain firm on.

dwlee im actually coming around on?? i think they didnt respond awfully to kyos push which is ++town in my book

i'll tentatively trust kyo w her salsa stance just bc im struggling w reading her

marci is an anomaly to me. reminder to go back and read her iso

N_M once again digs himself into a deeper hole and i dont think hes a great elim,, my worry would be keeping him around is worse

i feel like im missing smth in general which is just. guh demoralizing i want to be able to give a strong read but im pretty cluttered in my head

If I'm scum, manatee is in my pocket and I maybe take her to final 3 despite her being confirmed.

ok im going to preface this with saying i do not believe there is any reality where kyo flips wolf here. im not going to entertain any theories involving flipping her and i really do not see how kyos positioning at EoD ever is scum alongside Goofball. feel free to argue but this is something i'll remain firm on.

I agree that today she shouldn't be the flip, but I feel like the hard bus day one thing is totally possible and if NM flips scum, her push on me looks really bad. Look into her case against me as if NM was confirmed scum and tell me what you think.

Like look at the embedded quote. I take Manatee and Math and it's the easiest final 3 for scum!me.

i really just cant force myself to look at that D1 and say she flips scum given the fact she had the option of marci that was super easy to sustain given her previous statements. in all honesty im circling back to your point and defaulting to "N_M is town" which isnt helpful,,, so could i bug you for an explanation cos i feel like im missing smth sorry :/

I've seen scum do that sort of hard bus before. Look at Yggdrasil for instance. LLD suddenly hard bussed Anya when the other wagon was town.

Now that's just to say it's possible. If the mafia are somehow aware that the game is low-investigative power, doing a bus like this for towncred could be extremely helpful.

And that also isn't to say that NM!scum implies Kyo!scum, but that I think the possibility of Kyo!scum goes up if NM is because of her implicit defense of him here. If you'll notice, Kyo began by pushing me and NM as a team. But Kyo never really mentioned NM in this argument, and sort of took it for granted that he would flip red. That is beneficial for two reasons if NM and her are buddies: if she can mislim me today, then tomorrow there is less credibility for a NM flip because it's sort of policy at this point, the team theory of me and NM fell through, and people don't like policy eliminating in MELO.

On the other hand, if NM flips red today, Kyo can point to her partner theory to get me flipped tomorrow and put her in MELO.

ty that makes a lot more sense!! i will sleep on it and revisit what u said tmrw but for now im happy placing a metaphorical vote on N_M

Manatee says she'll revisit it, but when I push for Salsa later, she's still down. I don't think there's any way scum!me loses in a final 3 with Manatee.

Snipped because of broken quote tags ruining my wall

At this point there’s so much posting I kinda just wanna just the night to catch up with it.

Does anyone have anything brief they wanna say or any reason why NM should not be the elim?

Math says he wants to catch up in the night, but he never catches up, and he never reads my scumgames which he asked me for specifically.

If you flip town, then either Salsabil or N_M is fine with me as I don't see Marci being scum here, and I only see scum!MathBlade with scum!Dwlee. I would prefer Salsa tomorrow, still for individual reasons, then Final 4 should be Me, Math, Marci, and N_M, and of those 4, N_M is clearly the scum imo. You should agree with me as well because you have vibes that Marci and Salsa are not teamed.

Assuming you are town, can you not see what Salsa is doing today? Why would you want N_M over Salsa? In fact, for anyone who is voting N_M (geraintm I've seen your reasoning but feel free to add more regarding Salsa if you like), why do you want to eliminate N_M

more than

anyone else?

It seems like everyone is afraid of having him in MELO tomorrow, but nobody but geraintm or I have offered reasoning as to why he is scum (that I can recall). The fact that everyone's quietly letting this happen feels wrong - does nobody else get that feeling?

Mine is specifically game control.

I as pretty much confTown in like a majority of worlds should not be tipping my cards to scum at this point.
The entire idea of elo is to force scum to play by a very tight area of control.
Ideally if possible you want to force scum to vote first.

Not Mafia has a penchant for bucking any sort of rule or system set in place which means that if whoever we elim today is town we have a wildcard I can’t predict.

He has been given several chances to show a bare minimum of caring about the game and just hasn’t. Therefore he is either scum or just won’t give a damn in elo.

The more he blatantly trolls the more I think the former.

If I tip my hand too much the way I am thinking then scum adapt the scenario

Take a look at Calculasia where I was scum. Titus played that elo absolutely perfectly the way she was supposed to until she started publicly questioning which teams.

By breaking things down too much you give scum a clear path to victory.
There’s a sweet balance here.

We know the kills scum have to take which are conf town A and B. They have to make those kills OR they will no longer be in control of their vote. By remaining tight lipped at this specific moment whoever is scum doesn’t know I am a threat or not.

Elo is a big game of chicken and almost every time scum vote first town wins and vice versa if ran right.

For me to override what is a superior strategy every single time I have to be convinced that that person is 100000% scummier than someone who is seemingly not playing.

Which to be fair I don’t know if that bar is even possible.

This is again referring to N_M being policy in the end of this post. Towards the beginning though, see the bold. He specifically says that killing N_M over Salsa is about

game control

. Yet now he says I was in control that Day, when he was openly talking about being in control of the game, it just doesn't line up.

I started digging deeper into his meta while reading Calculasia when I noticed he talked about Flea The Magician (fae was town) being readable like a chicken, if you put them in the oven and wait long enough you'll know what they are. It reminded me of what he said about Dwlee earlier in this game:

teapot read

Kyo you specifically posted [redacted] which is part of why I think you're full of crap.

I cant post anything specific about an ongoing game. If you're town you can figure it out for yourself.

Then if we can’t talk about an ongoing game it shouldn’t be alluded to. Is there another way to imply what you mean without skirting rules?

I said directly what I mean. I thought dwlee was lying about their eyes glazing over, like making up an excuse for why they're not very involved right now.

I'm not going to lie about being diagnosed with inattentiveness for mafia. If you think I'm scum whatever but that reason is absolutely awful.

I don't think you're lying about a diagnosis, but I do think you're not as in the game as you would be if you were town

Got it. I misunderstood. I was thinking you/Dwlee were talking about ongoing. I missed the context in the speed read. Dwlee in my opinion is not a good liar. I think that pushing them over RL if they are scum is the wrong way to go about it. Dwlee scum I think if you make them talk they will scumfirm or townfirm themselves but they’re a teapot read.

Yup.

I ask people to “prove” where they stand based on things to see if they are consistent. Votes is a way to do that. Sometimes I use questions.

We have right around 2 days until end of day and I have to start work in a moment.
Right now, you’re the top runner for elimination so testing you and your words is my priority.
If you don’t try to lead a wagon around someone pretty fast odds are you’ll be the flip.

So if you’re town it’s in your best interest to case someone or be as active as possible to find a probable scum and convince the rest of us they’re scum or to do something.

I do think you’re a teapot read and if you just do it I think you’re sortable.

A teapot read is one that boils overtime when put under heat. Eventually the flavor of the person will be known. Players like you and flea are that way to me.

Then case her.

In the additional games I was examining I was ctrl-f'ing his ISOs for words like "burn, heat, fire, tea, teapot, kettle, oven, chicken, turkey, roast, time, wait" etc. and couldn't find it in the first couple of towngames. When I was opening his ISOs I realized he almost always replaces in the same way, with one distinct difference. Sometimes he uses an exclamation point, and other times he does not.

In Calculasia, scum!Math called Flea a teapot read. He doesn't use this term in any of his other games that I found. I know Dwlee is town now and it seems like Math has done the same thing again. Called a townie a teapot read, I mean.

This just seems like a desperate attempt not to elim Not Mafia lol. Like that’s just not even worth a response.

Back on D3 when I make an admittedly weak case on Math, he just laughs it off and says it's not worth a response. He's avoiding, and at first it seemed like because of the exclamation points, but maybe he was really more worried about getting called out on teapot reading you the way he did to Flea when he was scum in Calculasia.

This just seems like a desperate attempt not to elim Not Mafia lol. Like that’s just not even worth a response.

Facts are facts

Still no response after I goad him, I would think town might get at least somewhat engaged by this post. He doesn't even SR me for this because he's scared of what challenging me before ELO means

Math would stake the game on N_M being scum? As in you die tomorrow if he flips town?

I would put the odds pretty high he flips scum.
Bet the game, maybe.

I die tomorrow if he flips scum, no. That would be playing against wincon.

Right now I am playing the game to not lose.
Not Mafia being the elim almost assures that we (town) wins.

If Not Mafia is town and town decides that I am scum for it, then I am the elim.

Also this is a funny post - probably a typo, but fun to think of as a scumslip. The bold makes sense because as scum, N_M is literally playing against wincon by chain-limming his teammate and himself lol

Disregard my exclamation point point

VOTE: dwlee

The first time I went through I was looking at Math's whole ego and clicking what looked like Games, then when I went to get quotes I did an advanced search for Author "MathBlade" Return results as "Post Topics" and Search Forums under "Mafia Games" to filter out all the other topics I was sifting through visually the first time.

I've already found 2 towngames in the first 4 or so I opened that have exclamation points, so the presence is not AI after all

Why even look in the first place? What prompted that?

You are insistent on speeding through this day, killing N_M without a case, ignoring any points I make against Dwlee. You talk about guiding us into a favorable ELO situation but it's exactly the way a deepwolf would win this - just talking mechanics that are protown and claiming it is protown to keep your reads close to your chest here. It positions you to be flexible to vote anyone left in MELO.

You, as town, should have a similar POV to me, as we are both the consensus townreads that are likely to be responsible for the decisionmaking in ELO due to the fact the conftown will die. You should realize, as I have, that there is no risk in outing what we're thinking as town right now - neither of us die before MELO, so our reads will not influence scums' kills, and even if they do, scum have to choose to leave conftown alive to kill either of us. That is what is

actually

pro-town. Instead you are trying to close discussion. By not talking now, we have fewer conftown to talk with when tomorrow and the next day come.

So I get suspicious, because your play doesn't

feel

quite like town. I feel like you

look

town but are intentionally leading town down the wrong path, and on top of that, you seem to be ignoring anything I have to say about Dwlee, who is my top scumread by play. I would expect town to engage me on this, but you aren't, so I get suspicious.

That's why I looked in the first place. Also I'm only alive in one game right now so I have a lot of time to look at meta for this one, and I hadn't looked at you yet. I've looked at Salsabil, Dwlee, Manatee (on D1), and you now. I already dived Marci in Owner's Market Blitz very recently, and I was scum with Titus in a large that has completed now, and scum against her in the Mini that traitor T3 guiltied my partner Manatee in, so I felt like I'd know if she was scum.

geraintm I was happy to leave a day yesterDay and it turned out he was IC so I never had to meta him. I feel like meta'ing N_M will be useless because of his playstyle but I should probably try.

Only when I have backed off a little and it becomes safe to do so does Math return to engaging with me

VOTE: dwlee

i think

Here is further evidence that Manatee would be good for me to take to the end - she listens to my dwlee case, though she is convinced by his response that he is satisfactorily town. I could still bring Manatee/Math to the end though and win easily if I were scum.

I asked you if you'd stake the game on it because it feels like the way that you (and dwlee?) are saying that I want to eliminate anyone

but

N_M feels like one of you knows he will flip scum, and I thought if that someone was you that I might bait you into saying you would.

Pedit: I just played a large normal with dwlee with a similar ratio of conftown

I had the feeling one of you knew he would flip scum, looks like I was right on that.

Looks like geraintm is normally active before deadline. Would Dwlee, Math, and Manatee vote Salsa with me and he can hammer in the morning?

Here I try to get a wagon on Salsa instead, and I get support from the following people:

Looks like geraintm is normally active before deadline. Would Dwlee, Math, and Manatee vote Salsa with me and he can hammer in the morning?

I'd be ok w that

Manatee is ok with it

I'm okay killing Salsa because I think she has equity as an NM partner, but I'd still prefer to kill NM.

Dwlee is okay with it

I am not comfortable making a snap decision like that while civ game is starting.

It felt like you ignored G’s case Kyo.

I don’t townread Salsa if the votes went that way so I would hammer.

N_M is willing to compromise if the votes are there

VOTE: salsa

Manatee actually votes at this point, so N_M wagon moves to E-2

wheres the votes at rn IM SCARED TO VOTE CUZ I DONT WANNA BY ACCIDENT HAMMER AGAIN-

Marci saying she is scared to vote indicates she is talking about voting Salsa, not N_M, with the context of the conversation

Alright, we got

something

out of Salsa/Marci toward the end at least. I still have the feeling this is going to flip town though.

VOTE: N_M

Salsa votes N_M right before this, putting him back to E-1, and I hammer the wagon now that I've gotten some content out of Marci/Salsa (mostly wanted it from Marci as she had been very quiet). I follow through with the intent I laid down much earlier in the day to compromise on N_M if necessary. I thought we were about to hit deadline and didn't want to go no lim.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Other individual quotes coming

[ssbm_Kyouko]

TOWN READS

Kyouko- Probably the closest we have to obvtown.

DGB- Looker spewed town before they replaced in.

TOWN LEANS

Not_Mafia- He's been inactive the past couple days but he was actually trying to solve early on.

Titus- She's not trying too hard to look town, she's actively trying to gain information, and her responses feel genuine.

Salsabil- She only has one read that I disagree with, which actually helps make me think her reads are authentic and not just following general consensus.

NULL

OMO and Saudade (not Math)- Both are Null for the same reason. Both have been fairly chaotic, which helps generate content, but they're not doing a whole lot of actual solving themselves.

Geraintm- Not much content to look at. He's done this as town before but it's ultimately NAI.

Dwlee- Idk why they're making such a conscious effort to look scummy. It makes me think possibly just confused town, but they've played long enough to know better.

SCUM LEANS

ManateeDude- I feel like she has scum equity with Max and Marci after we had our back and forth. She occasionally gives town vibes with her posts though, so not a definite scum read.

Math (not Saudade)- Terrible entrance, terrible vote, and fake sounding questions all make him sound incredibly scummy in a short amount of time. Combined with my read on Saudade, this slot doesnt feel good at all to me.

SCUM READS

Marci- Same reason I suspect her that I do Manatee. However, I feel like Marci more blatantly tried to distance herself. Possibly scum trying to associate herself with a town!Manatee in order to build fake scum equity. Also don't think Marci has been doing much solving or scum hunting, mainly just chatting with everyone and being friendly.

Max- The root of most of my scum reads. She took a lot of heat early on then laid low ever since. Posts occasionally to avoid prod dodge accusations, but she isn't really doing anything. Most likely just trying to avoid attention, to the point it's becoming obvious.

All things considered, I'm interested in voting out either Marci or Max unless someone can come up with a compelling enough case for somebody else.

Not only do I

not

kill Roden because of this, Math

does

kill Roden because of this. Roden is the only one on the DGB wagon that SRs Math.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think we should look at who avoided the wagon for questionable reasons

Votecount:

• MaxTheFox (6): omo, Dwlee99, ManateeDude, Salsabil Faria, ssbm_Kyouko, marcistar
  omo (2): MaxTheFox, Titus
  Salsabil Faria (1): MathBlade

Day 2 will end in (expired on 2021-08-02 11:22:01).
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to eliminate.

Spoiler: Votes Since Last Votecount

VOTE: Owo
I think I like my vote here based on day play and will help me figure out if we are in scum Owo land or if we are in town Owo land which then has drastic consequences for the game as a whole imho

In fact,

VOTE: owo

Feel more confident here than Dwlee atm.

I said im lurking. salsa what r ur thoughts on max rn? you lay down a vote but im curious how serious it was

Said already, I think her lurking in this game is scum indicative, the vote on her is moderately serious. Like

Math

, I also think now we have at least one deepwolf (considering both

Dwlee

and

OMO

are town).

u said u think im town, so who does that leave as the deepwolf?
"considering both dwlee and omo are town" how do you know that..?

What if it’s

Max

and

geraintm

? 2 lurkers

i do think geraintm has a decent chance of being scum here, but max im kinda unsure on.

pedit: these wagons are giving me the spooks. omo and dwlee voting together, and Max and Salsa voting together, cross-voting
TvS wagons I think.

i dont think scum would wanna wagon together so openly. do you think they would?

1-5 Maricstar omo dynamic is interesting. Marci might be a wagon to save owo.

didn't think of this originally.

Looking at this VC here, assuming Titus town, I know I am town, then if there is scum in the wagon it is in Marci/Kyo/owo if the wagons are TvT as I suspect then a Marci Kyo wagon pops up again. I coulda sworn Kyo was the first voter on DGB though I am going to have to reread that.

i voted drippinggoofballs slot early on (i think in the first few pages..? not sure exactly) and just never moved off.


- -

out of 1333s vc,
i dont think owo would be a good move, they've felt generally towny to me this game.

max is a good vote, im not sure if i exactly trust theyre vt rn.
so is dwlee, they could be doing a lot more but they aren't doing much.

i really really really want geraintm today to give us stuff, they better not slide by like a slipperly snake

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

Hey Titus, how do you feel about flash wagon part two?

Marci brings up a good point and if y’all are all town and I am just paranoid then Faria is just buddying the shit out of me and I am wrong.

Didn't catch up fully but my reads are formed, might as well.

Weird bc I've been doing more discussion than you have. Sounds like youre your own obstacle to getting into discussion and you're projecting that onto me

Also what you claim isnt proof that is my intent nor does your analysis look at intent. Happy to dunk you if you keep this up.

What discussion have you been doing until page 10? Most of your posts up to that point were, as I said, question-dodges. What town intent could this possibly have? But honestly it's early and I'm not locking onto you yet. Do better.

Reads:

TOWN BIN

MaxTheFox - I'm town.
Salsabil - good tone and trying to solve the game early = town in my eyes.

TOWN LEAN

Saudade - at first I didn't like their tone but I don't really see scum being likely to be so nonchalant, if that's the right word.
Manatee - gut read. Trust me on this.
Not_Mafia - yes he is a troll but at the same time it looks like he's actually contributing and trying to solve. Unlike the other Miltank avatar in the game...

NULL

Everyone else, expect another list later in day 1 when there is more content.

SCUM LEAN

omo - trolled in an useless way, dodged questions, picked up the slack in the last page which is why I'm not binning them as scum,
DGB (Looker) - another gut read. I'll let DGB post before voting them though.

SCUM BIN

Nobody yet.

Reads (this is sorted within tiers):

TOWN BIN

MaxTheFox - I'm town.
MathBlade (this was Saudade) - his attempts at solving earn him a lot of good boy points.
Salsabil - kept up the good tone.

TOWN LEAN

Manatee - gut read remains.
Not_Mafia - read stayed.
Dwlee - 50% meta read on this, dubious, I'm not locked onto this in any way.

NULL

marcistar - barely there. Lurker.
ssbm - just generally doesn't ping me as

anything

.
Titus - same.

SCUM LEAN

geraintm - suggested no-lim day 1 which is usually considered a bad idea. Also lurking.

SCUM BIN

omo - see the previous list, except their accusation of a scumclaim is serious now apparently.

---

It's easier for me to townread than scumread people, I found.

Weewooweewoo sound the alarms
VOTE: Max

In actuality I skimmed her iso in the other games she posted and I think this is clearly scum!Max.

VOTE: maxthefox

I think it’s very antitown to look off wagon here unless you’re policying Not Mafia

The people who were off wagon (who are still alive) are me, Not Mafia, and G

G is confirmed town
Not mafia was inactive for most of the day
And me who defending Max the entire time.

Even if we assume Not Mafia scum unless you’re assuming a Me+Not Mafia team (something I know to be false) then we know there is scum on Max’s wagon and it’s where we should look.

Just a reminder that Max's wagon was all town and Math knew that and whiteknighted Max for towncred, then says it's antitown to be looking off the wagon (unless you're going to policy his partner in which case it's 100)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think scum killed Titus because it was obvious she was going to target me or omo that night.

I touch on this in the wall but I think part of why Math did not kill Titus D1 is Titus may have still been harboring suspicion. The way he reveals the FN crumb to Titus in secret with the songs is a way to buy her trust before he kills her N2.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

^whereas I probably just kill Titus N1 because the ratio of town:scum is the highest on N1 and it's the easiest to avoid the babysitter hitting mafia on N1. I provided the same reasoning to scum!Titus in Large233 when we killed Cyrus - the longer we waited, the more likely it would be that Cyrus would target scum, just by statistical chance.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I would say based on these last few pages your stock would diminish greatly if Salsa is town and Marci is scum because you actively tried to derail the Marci elim. Before today if you had asked me that question I would say Dwlee then NM then you but if that was the case throw you all in a pressure cooker and see who comes up.

I know this is a non answer but if we elim Salsa and he’s town that’s a scary proposition here because I have had a feeling a deep wolf was on DGB’s hammer and

not having been able to sort there really irks me.

This is also in the wall but in case it gets skimmed, I want to highlight that Math complains about sorting the deep wolf but does not read my games that he asked for of his own accord. He asked me for my best deepwolf game and I gave him a pretty short one. I also referenced Large 233 numerous times in this game, and provided a list of all my games onsite up until the few most recent ones. He said he would catch up overNight and on that one Sunday, but he clearly never put in the effort to solve me despite complaining about it.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

This was also in the readwall but I wanted to highlight it

So from your POV best case scenario NM is elimmed flips scum (I am not going to consider NM town here because the next question means we lose)

Then assume you are elimmed

Then me 1 conf town and kyo/salsa/Marci left.

Assume conf town dead and then the scum in that three kill in kyo/salsa/Marci as I am incredibly easy to buddy as evidenced by the townreads.

What do you think elo looks like and who kills whom?

And saying scum kill me is not an option. You’re not allowed to change the parameters of the hypothetical I am hunting this for a reason

Okay so it's final 4 of you, Kyo, salsa, Marci. Then there's a no lim and you're off limits to kill for some reason.

I think Kyo would kill Marci because she could paint Salsa as DGB/NM's teammate pretty easily due to the lack of focus that I think Salsa has shown in sorting those slots.

I think Salsa would kill Kyo because Marci is an easier flip. But maybe she WIFOMs it and kills Marci now that I'm saying this.

I think Marci would kill Kyo for the same reasons Kyo would kill Marci. Salsa seems like an easy flip here.

That's what I think in that scenario, but I think you would be night killed if this actually played out because it gives way less info as to who is scum and keeps two townies able to be eliminated.

In these posts, Math is fishing for who he should bring to MELO/ELO. The reason Marci died is that you think I would kill her.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Math would stake the game on N_M being scum? As in you die tomorrow if he flips town?

I would put the odds pretty high he flips scum.
Bet the game, maybe.

I die tomorrow if he flips scum, no. That would be playing against wincon.

Right now I am playing the game to not lose.
Not Mafia being the elim almost assures that we (town) wins.

If Not Mafia is town and town decides that I am scum for it, then I am the elim.

Also in the readwall, but wanted to highlight that this is likely a typo, but fun to read as a scumslip lmao

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Waiting for the wall and not voting based on the dream even though I want to.

I had a question and it evaded my mind. Maybe I'll remember later

If you do you do.

At this point my case is pretty clear.

I can go back and forth with Kyo but it’s pointless.

Yes I said NM was policy and already explained why I didn’t provide why.

You didn’t want to meta read your buddy because you’d be screwed.

It’s pretty simple.

I have to work. Game is in your hands Dwlee if you have questions lemme know.

>You haven't posted a case on me
>You're now backtracking because you're caught lying about why you voted for N_M (you also awkwardly voted for DGB for the wrong reason, if you were town you would have been voting for a scumread, but that was a fake scumread all along)
>You and I both know there is no point in metaing N_M

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I also have to work now but we have like 6 days to go through this - next on my list is to analyze Math's defense of Max on D2, and to see if he shows any interest in policy eliminating N_M on D2 before Geraintm reveals as IC.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Threatens to wall post to get a hammer uwu

2303 is the wall, in the spoiler

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Math, did you or did you not read any of Large 233, or my deepwolf game?

If you did, what did you think?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I didnt care what you were thinking last day phase because I'd townbinned you the Night before and I was suspicious of Math/Marci. I became increasingly suspicious of Math when he started to change his tune on giving reads before ELO, so I hunkered down on pushing for no lim and tried not to comment on much else.

I don't remember thinking you were suspicious of me, but even if I had thought that, I wouldnt really care whether you were, because you were going to no lim, and if you had suspicions on me I would deal with them today if you were still alive

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Imho it’s between Kyo and Marci for the final scum. I have work but will check back later tonight. I think they should give their cases on scum.

Comes into what he thought would be the last day uncommitted, again looking for someone else to do the work for him.

VOTE: No Lim

?

I think this kinda doesn’t really matter to no lim Dwlee. I would rather sort this out with you rather than one of us guess wrong.

I think scum either no kill or kill me if we no elim.

I think both of us sorting this out together gives the best chance at victory.

If he thinks he's going to die, he should be reading Marci and I now and determining which he thinks is scum and casing one or both of us himself, while he and dwlee are both alive. It doesnt occur to him that if Marci or I are scum that we could kill dwlee to cut off his closest ally. At the time it was still 3 votes to hammer no lim. He's also fine with Dwlee going for no lim, but not fine when I do it below:

This has not been clarified in the rules, but when there are 3 consecutive day/night phases without any action from the mafia andno elimination the game will end and everyone will lose.

The result of no elim/no kill loops is revealed

VOTE: no elim

immediately dwlee and I are on the same page - we can no elim 3 times to force scum's hand. Before knowing it would be lose-lose, I was just going to try no elim once or twice, to see if scum would kill. I actually thought that Math would not kill so I was surprised to see final 3 the next day.

VOTE: no elim

I hate this vote. We know scum have to kill now or lose. Why would you cut day short before getting reads from everyone we can use tonight?

So I dont know how "we" are meant to use the reads at night but possibly Math is slipping that he wants the reads to influence the NK. Certainly he isn't talking about rereading overnight because he hasn't done that at all in this game.

VOTE: no elim

I hate this vote. We know scum have to kill now or lose. Why would you cut day short before getting reads from everyone we can use tonight?

Getting reads from everyone right now will inform scum's kill decision. I don't think anyone but me has been rereading overnight anyways, and I did my reread last night. I'm ready for final 3, don't need additional reads from anyone.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Someone will likely die tonight and we want their opinion before end of day so we have it in elo.

Mmm that's not logically consistent with what you were saying earlier

What I was saying earlier relied on the usual interpretation is that no elim no kill ends in a draw or happily every after and everyone lives.

Since this is not the case the answer changed.

In the last few I just point out that outing reads now will inform the kill decision and that Math is not being consistent in his response to that criticism. He said he was expecting a draw but now knows both teams lose, and this is what changes it for him. I think his plan was to just take this to a draw if necessary. Sometimes in chess, with the Black pieces (partnered with N_M and your other partner was caught on D1) it is respectable to earn a draw, especially from a losing position.

I want to see what’s on other people’s minds for when I die. Kyo said she won’t >> Huge FoS.

Again Math thinks he will die but is not willing to put out any of his own ideas. He wants others to present cases for him.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Yesterday I thought:
No kill means Math is scum
Dwlee getting killed means Marci is scum
If I die it's not on me to solve it anymore, but it would mean Marci was scum. Since dwlee and Math are attached at the hip, town will win if I die.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I did not expect Math to kill Marci

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I also thought if I died possibly it could be Math, but in that case I felt it would be futile to try to convince Dwlee to eliminate Math before F3, and that a Math-Dwlee-Marci final 3 would result in a dead Marci regardless of my efforts yesterDay

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Getting a bit sick so this is coming from my phone.

Just some D2 stuff, looking at Math's stance on Max that day.

Because I find that you asking a random lurker for a claim rather troubling when again, fypov this game would likely be close to solved.

Yet furthermore you’re asking this in one of three scenarios
A> You think/know Max is a PR and Titus protective babysitter town and therefore outing a PR is a good way to ensure Titus can’t protect them
Or B > You think/know Max is a PR and You think / know Titus is scum and are banking on a protective
Or C> You think/know Max is a VT

None of these situations are good to ask for a claim in.

Another incongruency.

I do not have a stance on Max as Max is quiet along with a few others

But this is not consistent with town play.

Pedit: Congrats Titus!

Early in the day Math purportedly has no stance on Max, but throughout the day is passively resistant to the wagon. He doesnt come out and say anything to defend Max for a while but is pushing Dwlee to provide a case on Max.

Math why do you think Max is town?

Because no one has followed you yet I really gotta go sorry.

So now about 100 posts later, Dwlee asks Math why Max is town. At this point, Math has not said Max was town yet, but apparently from Math's response he now is thinking Max is town. The reason isn't very strong though, just that nobody followed Dwlee. I suspect Math committed to townreading Max after Max claimed VT though, because if you TR a VT it leaves you open to try to push wagons on other players that may have a PR.

Math why do you think Max is town?

The short version is that much as I reviewed your post is the argument is the ISO is bare and she’s lurking.

So? I don’t know her. I don’t know what she does as town vs scum.

I haven’t seen anything that is anti town other than lurker which fits a ton of people.

Between that and no one chomping on the bit to join you or interact means that scum likely don’t care/don’t want to be seen on the wagon, making her likely town.

Guess you can call it gamestate vibes.

Now there's more of an explanation, but I think the conclusion is wrong. He says scum likely dont care/dont want to be seen on the wagon, but that ignores the possibility that scum dont want to bus when they're already down 1. This is something Dwlee brings up next. It feels like Math is working backwards from Max being town, rather than trying to sort Max.

Or scum aren't hopping on because she is scum.

Possible but not probable.

Aiming at a lurker is kinda a dart board in a dozen.

They either A> produce content B> Get replaced or C>Get policy elimmed.

Surely we can do better than a policy elim after getting scum?

So now math is referring to Max as a policy lim and Math is against it. This is a stark contrast to when Math was crusading to policy elim scum. I think it shows Math is informed that he has one stance on policy eliminating town, and another on policy eliminating scum.

Lack of interaction with a scumbud is incriminating, would you not say?

Not when it describes like a good chunk of the game.

Like that’s what I don’t get here.

I could pick out a good 3-4 people who are “non interactor”s with DGB why her?

This is just wasting Dwlee's time having him chase after Max. A good portion of Math's content on D2 is getting Dwlee to chase Max, and getting me to look at Titus. I actually had forgotten about that until I reread. That is the scummiest thing Math has done this game I think. It really stuck out to me at the time but I never got a response from Titus and I got distracted by Max and forgot.

Basically theres an interaction where Math is pressing me to scumread Titus, by asking leading questions about her. I TRed her, but wasn't sure about Math, so I was trying to sort Math through the interaction. I was answering his questions which were about Titus' claim, and he started accusing me of being inconsistent with regards to Titus - like I TRed her yesterday so why am I shading her now and not voting her. I shut him down for it as well, and I think that's why he steered more clear the rest of the game, because I wasn't easy to cast shade on. I told him I wasn't shading Titus, that I still TRed her and that I was more interested in sorting him via our interaction, that I was trying to inspect Titus from his pov to see if I missed anything. I dont think he liked that. Seems like Math's MO is to get town to eat each other - he doesnt get his hands dirty.

If it's not clear why Mathnis town on red flip, it is that Saudade moved the wagon from Looker to Max, and Looker/DGB flipped Goon

Quoting this because Max flipped green so Saudade (Math) moved a wagon from Looker (DGB) to Max on D1.

If you need reasons, town!max isn't a tunneler, she actually interacts. She posts more. She doesn't call people misguided town.

Scum!max does call people misguided town and her reaction is to buddy in response to pressure (see dwlee). She comments on the night kills. She posts reads lists with little to no reasoning attached. She lurks more.

Scum!max means town!mathblade and last scum is probably salsabil. The last 2 scum having English as a second language explains why Manatee and I were both not killed. That and my solve at end of day 1 pointed to 2 town.

I promise to take a look at that game but how exactly is max tunneling this game?
I am shit with scumreads but I am pretty good with town ones and Max is a townread.
Like call it a vibe but I really think she’s town.
I wish I could explain it but I don’t think she is scum.

Even when Math is calling Max town, in the same posts he is asking me to prove she is scum. Same way he did to Dwlee when they were trying to Wagon Max: "No Max is town for no reason, but you should scumcase her and get back to me (:"

Yay an actual case! I will sleep on it tonight and look stuff up.

Maybe my vibes are wrong.

And then I post a case, Math says he'll sleep on it, but seems interested, and then Max dies before Math comes back.

Math

hardly

defended Max at all. A couple of times he would say he thinks Max is town, but would provide no dayplay-related reasons, just gamestate. Generally Math just seemed indifferent about Max, but he wanted Dwlee and I both to chase cases on Max, in the same breath in which he would call her town.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Cant quote 2338 because I cant embed more than 10 quotes together

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm not sure where I chainsawed Looker, I'm assuming you're talking about my Titus vote? I was scum with her in another game at the time and felt like she was kinda lurky in that game. She seemed a bit lurky here too so that's why I voted for her.

Regarding Roden and Looker: I had a weaker read on Looker than Roden. Looker was vibes, Roden I had a case I wanted to push. I determined by pushing Roden and interacting with him that I was wrong and correctly TRed him. By this time I think Looker had been replaced and I was getting good vibes from DGB. I thought it was being more proactive than Looker and mistakenly thought it was town, and shifted my.focus elsewhere. I later realized when it seemed like all of the other wagons were dead ends that something was not right in my TRs, so I went back to examine the ones that I had not sorted under pressure. At this point DGB's ISO stuck out to me and I turned the tides on it. I was not angling for a no lim, I wanted to hit scum and did not think Marci, Manatee, or Roden were going to flip scum. We still had plenty of time left to find an elimination, and it was scum DGB that was trying to force us to choose between two town wagons about 2-3 days from the deadline. I believe you also, more lightly, pushed a similar sentiment when you said omo is a vanity wagon and you moved your vote elsewhere.

I was the "star" of OMB and Siege of Aurelia as well. I am powertown. I am not very good at scum and more often than not play it passively. As town I am vigilant and oftentimes I flip flop. I'm not scared to be wrong, or to go against a previous read, because I reread a lot, especially when I mislim town.

I definitely dont focus continuously on dwlee on D1. I have a lot of different scumreads throughout D1, and I push and sort many of them.

Allowing a null slot to avoid being the D1 lim because my townreads trust in the slot is not a problem. I am uninformed, so I had no way of knowing what this slot I had trouble reading was. I was willing to let him go for the day, like I did with Dwlee. On D1 for me it's about finding out who is town, who is not necessarily town, but not likely to be scum, and then flip someone in the poe. I didnt see you pushing for N_M's elimination on D1 either.

As for knowing N_M lolhammers: word gets around about him, and I read a lot of games I dont play in, because I am often reliant on meta. I have read games that included Not_Mafia, and have heard he will lolhammer, and that people joke about "N_M-1", as in E-2, because N_M will hammer if you out someone on E-1, so in games with him you have to be careful and put people to E-2 but not E-1

I didnt even read 987 or 983 but I can tell you it was not me going for a no lim. I have played a lot of games and I know better than to no lim except in rare circumstances like MELO. I never give up on catching scum, even close to deadline. I love a good flashwagon. You'll notice though that I did not automatically push the 6th voter on the wagon, as that was Math, and I was most focused on Dwlee, Omo, and Max the next Day.

I did intend it to go all the way. I had the chance to flashwagon Salsa as well and I didn't do that. I've eliminated scum twice this game, though the second time I was compromising. I am always willing to compromise on someone I don't hard TR to achieve an elimination, which I proved on D3 or 4 when we killed N_M

[ssbm_Kyouko]

So one thing I'm thinking about is the Titus babysit and the Roden night kill. I think Kyo talked about the Roden NK but didn't talk about how Titus' babysitting choice played into it I think?

The reason I think this is important is because Math was pointing out the claim to Titus, and she then decided to babysit Manatee. Kyo why do you think Math didn't NK Titus there (beyond just that Titus didn't think Math was the towniest) and Math why do you think Kyo didn't NK Titus?

2 main reasons that come to mind are 1) Math was buddying Titus successfully and her babysitter claim was still in question. He knew she was town but maybe he as her sibling expected her to be lying to trick him in some way, like to bait him into shooting at her if she was like, a commuter or a hider or Bulletproof or something.
2) and this is he more important one, Roden was the only person in good standing, possibly the only person fullstop, who wafull stop, Math as a scumread. Saudade was fairly TRed I think, and Math was too, but Roden was suspicious of Math. I think Math's style is passive and that this kind of kill will grant him better success than going for Titus, because he wont be pressured if the only one SRing him dies.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

My theory is that she knows Roden or she has to be the top dog so getting me and Koba to fight gives her space but that didn’t happen. I don’t know her enough to know which this is

I never tried to get you and Koba to fight so this is just made up. I also had no reason to be threatened by Roden if I was scum. Look at his reads. He trusted me, and he sheeped me.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

With an inactive N_M as the second scum, the Roden kill was a solo project. It makes no sense for me to have killed Roden, and it does make sense for Math to have done it

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think you're trying to manipulate me into voting Titus with the leading questions tbh. I dont know if it's scum or controlling town though.
Titus, or anyone else with mathblade experience: is this something he tries as town? To "lead a horse to water", as it were, and dichotomize the horse based on whether they drink?

To be clear I have about a billion (hyperbole) scum games.
I am sure if someone wanted to paint me as scum that does a certain thing they could.
When I am scum (again not here), I manipulate the gamestate not people. Townies become scum more than I ever would. In the linked game I had Xlos and DGB were my puppets doing the scummy things I couldn’t. I don’t outright manipulate here. It’s why as scum I am almost never wagoned because I am honest and truthful to a fault and nothing is off limits and I consistently try to bring scum and town meta in alignment to avoid trust tells.

This is the only reply to my 1318, not even Titus replies. Dwlee do you remember this interaction, or do you want quotes of it? I think it's the most concretely scummy thing that pinged me about Math in this game. Most of the other reasons to SR him are contextual I think, but this was an interaction that really bothered me that went largely unnoticed by everyone else, which is evidenced by the fact 1318 got no other replies, but Math replies in a kind of preemptively defensive way. "I'm sure if someone wanted to paint me as scum that does x they could"

Going to sleep

[ssbm_Kyouko]

My theory is that she knows Roden or she has to be the top dog so getting me and Koba to fight gives her space but that didn’t happen. I don’t know her enough to know which this is

I never tried to get you and Koba to fight so this is just made up. I also had no reason to be threatened by Roden if I was scum. Look at his reads. He trusted me, and he sheeped me.

That’s what you tried to do with the Roden kill.

That’s literally my point.

It wasn’t a fear kill it was a strategic one.

how does killing Roden lead to you and omo fighting? Was he mediating you two or something?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

testing something

[ssbm_Kyouko]

My theory is that she knows Roden or she has to be the top dog so getting me and Koba to fight gives her space but that didn’t happen. I don’t know her enough to know which this is

I never tried to get you and Koba to fight so this is just made up. I also had no reason to be threatened by Roden if I was scum. Look at his reads. He trusted me, and he sheeped me.

That’s what you tried to do with the Roden kill.

That’s literally my point.

It wasn’t a fear kill it was a strategic one.

how does killing Roden lead to you and omo fighting? Was he mediating you two or something?

Killing Roden leads to us fighting because Roden said me and omo was either SvT or TvS. If someone pointed that out that causes us to fight. A strategic kill is one that manipulates the gamestate.

Did I or N_M point out that Roden was calling you and omo TvS? I dont recall him saying that. Sounds like you're revealing why you would kill Roden tbh

[ssbm_Kyouko]

targeting babysitter is dangerous no matter what and im of the belief mafia missed my soft

It seems that way but it could easily be scum that

ignored

your crumb to make it appear that they missed it.

Missed the crumb:
{Max (newb), Salsa (English as a second language), Not_Mafia (not_reading)}

Ignored the crumb:
{Dwlee, omo, Titus, MathBlade}

Marci/Geraint, I don't feel confident putting them in either category. Either way, I think if one scum missed the crumb they both did.

pedit: these wagons are giving me the spooks. omo and dwlee voting together, and Max and Salsa voting together, cross-voting
TvS wagons I think.
UNVOTE:

I agree with like 90% of your prior wall post. I still think if there is a deep wolf they could kill Roden here. Saying more or why stops what I am hunting for.

This post however I find very “off”.

I don’t really think there should be a “missed” or “ignored” category.

Assume Faria is scum. Their buddy could have seen the crumb and interacted with it and then Faria posts asking what a Friendly Neighbor is.

Two, assume I am scum (incorrectly) you can’t seriously tell me that I would be in the ignore column when I have a post telling Titus who claimed babysitter to look at post 45 (which has town buddies -> common FN crumb, page 40 the “friendly” and page 41 where I post a WWF video that has protecting Manatees midway through. Like you could argue I am in the ignore category but you really would need a third category for deliberate manipulation here.

Three, the more I think about it the more I don’t like this sort at all. We don’t know who the scum are or what they are thinking yet.

Using the Roden kill I could paint almost anyone as scum.

But I think we learn more from who scum push.

Four, why are these wagons that stalled TvS yet you’re treating the D1 wagons with Marci and Manatee as TvT?

Fifth, I am pretty unsatisfied with your answer. You seem like a deep player. I get gut vibes Titus is town but a lot better argument Titus is scum is that she argued protecting Manatee was about day claim yet she says she saw the FN crumbs after I pointed them out and was “taking a risk” making her answer about day play wrong or her answers about the video are wrong.

Maybe this is why Roden died?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I haven't quoted 886 in my ISO at all btw

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I haven't quoted 886 in my ISO at all btw

Unless it's inside a spoiler tag, I can check that

[ssbm_Kyouko]

And it's not inside a spoiler either

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I pr hunt as scum, you can open any pt I've played scum in and see it

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Other motivations for the kill always come secondary to me

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Nah what I mean is, my kill choice is motivated by pr hunting. I hunt for crumbs as both alignments. One of my biggest weaknesses as town is putting too much stock into something I think is a crumb. Leads me to.incorrectly TR scum sometimes so I'm trying to be conscious of that.

targeting babysitter is dangerous no matter what and im of the belief mafia missed my soft

It seems that way but it could easily be scum that

ignored

your crumb to make it appear that they missed it.

Missed the crumb:
{Max (newb), Salsa (English as a second language), Not_Mafia (not_reading)}

Ignored the crumb:
{Dwlee, omo, Titus, MathBlade}

Marci/Geraint, I don't feel confident putting them in either category. Either way, I think if one scum missed the crumb they both did.

pedit: these wagons are giving me the spooks. omo and dwlee voting together, and Max and Salsa voting together, cross-voting
TvS wagons I think.
UNVOTE:

There's no slip here, and this isn't the only time I bring this theory up. I come back to it many times, it even ties into the conclusion that the Roden kill was a solo decision.

If anything your response was a scumslip, let me grab it

[ssbm_Kyouko]

targeting babysitter is dangerous no matter what and im of the belief mafia missed my soft

It seems that way but it could easily be scum that

ignored

your crumb to make it appear that they missed it.

Missed the crumb:
{Max (newb), Salsa (English as a second language), Not_Mafia (not_reading)}

Ignored the crumb:
{Dwlee, omo, Titus, MathBlade}

Marci/Geraint, I don't feel confident putting them in either category. Either way, I think if one scum missed the crumb they both did.

pedit: these wagons are giving me the spooks. omo and dwlee voting together, and Max and Salsa voting together, cross-voting
TvS wagons I think.
UNVOTE:

I agree with like 90% of your prior wall post. I still think if there is a deep wolf they could kill Roden here. Saying more or why stops what I am hunting for.

This post however I find very “off”.

I don’t really think there should be a “missed” or “ignored” category.

Assume Faria is scum. Their buddy could have seen the crumb and interacted with it and then Faria posts asking what a Friendly Neighbor is.

Two, assume I am scum (incorrectly) you can’t seriously tell me that I would be in the ignore column when I have a post telling Titus who claimed babysitter to look at post 45 (which has town buddies -> common FN crumb, page 40 the “friendly” and page 41 where I post a WWF video that has protecting Manatees midway through.

Like you could argue I am in the ignore category but you really would need a third category for deliberate manipulation here.

Three, the more I think about it the more I don’t like this sort at all. We don’t know who the scum are or what they are thinking yet. Using the Roden kill I could paint almost anyone as scum. But I think we learn more from who scum push.

Four, why are these wagons that stalled TvS yet you’re treating the D1 wagons with Marci and Manatee as TvT?

Fifth, I am pretty unsatisfied with your answer. You seem like a deep player. I get gut vibes Titus is town but a lot better argument Titus is scum is that she argued protecting Manatee was about day claim yet she says she saw the FN crumbs after I pointed them out and was “taking a risk” making her answer about day play wrong or her answers about the video are wrong.

In point two of the response, this may be you slipping that you neither ignored nor missed the crumb, rather you deliberately manipulated. Thing is, "ignored" was the deliberate manipulation, but because you were focused on the crumb when deciding who to kill, you point out that if you were in one of the categories it would have to be a third one for deliberate manipulation

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Like it's clear from a town POV that ignored meant "saw the crumb, but didnt act on it", but because your kill decision was centered on the crumbs, you felt that ignored was the wrong word

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I dont really have anything to add rn, hoping you're hammering Math but either way you go he played a pretty good game considering we got DGB day 1 and he was left with N_M.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Yeah geraintm wasn't activated he was auto flipped d3

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Wait so Math are you just a goon? 3 goons vs IC/FN/BS?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think the day modifier on an IC has always been a thing and that it's just an oversight that Day is not marked as an explicitly normal modifier specifically for the IC role.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Gg town and thanks mod

I wasn’t crumbing doctor btw, that was just coincidence

I love when I accidentally scumread an unintentional soft that happens to be from scum and not town

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Reminds me of OMB where I incorrectly believed a softed cop inno in MELO and it happened to work out that the player actually was town.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Yeah I remember, it was supposedly your cop inno but actually scum had bought cop and they pointed out your "cop inno" to make it seem like you had won cop