Mini 2228: Isekai uPick - Endgame

[ssbm_Kyouko]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm..

[ssbm_Kyouko]

nah
VOTE: dunn

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Most of what Kate said feels right, except that it's not me.

[Kerset]

VC2.5

Player	Votes	Voters
Gamma Emerald	2	Lukewarm, Dunnstral,
Kate Bishop	1	Gamma Emerald,
Dunnstral	1	ssbm_Kyouko,
Not Voting	---	WhemeStar, Cabd, Lady Lambdadelta, Kate Bishop,

With 8 alive it takes 5 to eliminate.

Today i fed a pigeon.

The day will end in (expired on 2021-09-27 20:00:00), or when an elimination is achieved.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

okay back from vacation

[Kate Bishop]

Hi LLD!

We have some cases on the last page and I would very much appreciate your input on Cabd (but you can reply to any of them)

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hi LLD!

We have some cases on the last page and I would very much appreciate your input on Cabd (but you can reply to any of them)

uhhh, kay. lol

can you give me a summary? consider me lazy and demotivated and in need of like, a kick in the pants to reboot

[Kate Bishop]

My biggest concerns atm are a) his manatee vote makes no sense as someone who said in his VERY FIRST POST it was about to be melo, b) he has spent most of the day trying to get ffery on his side and not solving (but real life is a bitch sometimes I get it) and c) his scumread on us reeked of OMGUS.

Ffery has a shorter version of the case with more individual points I can find after I eat lunch, but this is just a quickie

[Kate Bishop]

I got you

Here's a sketch of why we're scumreading you.

1. It starts with your manatee vote after Titus flipped. When Titus didn't flip at the end of Day 1, we assumed Titus' death probably wasn't happening for some reason, and we were avid to see how they both reacted to that fact at the start of Day 2. We held on to the thought that for some reason the flip might not happen until day 2, though. And then the flip did happen, and we had that discussionless vote where some player(s) not currently able to post (dead, or GiF) put a vote on manatee at the start of the day.

There was an approx 30 minute break between when Titus's flip was posted and when the votecount went up, with one vote already on Manatee. There's no way to know whether that vote was placed with the knowledge that Titus died, but I lean toward yes, I guess.

For the rest of us, though, we had 24 hours to take it all in, and two players voted Manatee -- and you were one of them. Which is why we voted you. We really expected the majority of players to choose no-elim, especially you. And you WERE aware of the situation the elim put us in: your first post of the day was to caution that we're at MELO.

2. Your scumread of us felt extremely reactive to our own scumread of you, and didn't seem to build out from there much.

3. Most of your interactions with us since then feel like you've been trying to get me to call off notsci, rather than to figure out/address our concerns.

and 4. we still are skeptical/confused that you got "masonizer" from our crumbs, when I made no reference at all to Action Dan (who was the masonizer in that game), and focused on my hydra and you.

There's a lot of additional words/links to the fullblown case, but those are the highlights. And I feel like hitting you with an essay isn't really going to be helpful given the circumstances.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yeah, right. I forgot that happened, I even reacted after it saying I voted for the wrong one (of you and Cabd).

Yeah I think I can't overlook the Manatee vote. I was on vacation and basically checked out but still knew that was a poor vote.

Honestly I forgot we could no vote? so I voted for someone who I thought was scum but probably wouldn't die without more consensus?

[Kate Bishop]

Makes sense. We've been operating from a PoE standpoint and have strong reasons to townread-

SSBM (her play makes sense with her claim, the posting frequency chart I shared)
Luke (his play falls in line clearly with what he did in Bloodstained and also good bits of paranoia)
Wheme (Cabd clears, but also the meta dive we did and Wheme being baffled at the scumreads from players he holds in high regard)
GIF (confidence and role)

You are in null, but we think you are town.

Then we have Dunn, with a guilty on him
Gamma, who is playing to his meta when his buddy has a guilty and the only thing he has done all day is try to discredit us and ssbm
and Cabd.

[Gamma Emerald]

ssbm_Kyouko

I’ve already hit on my reasoning about Kyouko, highlighting her posting frequency difference between alignments. Someone else mentioned her being in the forefront with shrewd thoughts, I believe this was DGB? I also don’t think scum-kyouko makes sense with how she’s played post-N1. Her vote on Dunn backs up her claim of a guilty, before she even claimed she noted ffery’s post about making sure that investigatives can out information. Of those who voted an actual wagon, hers is the one vote I don’t side-eye for this very reason. I also liked her reaction to the crumbs reveal, I feel like that felt like a genuine response from someone not used to playing with morph and myself, which would be hard to fake on a scumteam that likely was trying to decode them at earlier times.

I don’t agree about no-elim today. But that’s personal preference.

Wheme_Star

So, I am going to preface this with I am disappointed in how little solving Wheme has done throughout the game. But disappointment does not make him scum.

First off, I’m going to reference a Tenet read. In particular, Tammy’s read on myself. This is one of the things I’ve been mulling around in my head with regards to how he reacted to the overwhelming scumreads towards the end of Day 1. There’s no denying how high a regard he gives to the members of morph and LLD, and I think scum-wheme wouldnt play the confusion angle with regards to the scumreads on him.

Second off, he can only be scum with Cabd. If Cabd is town, Wheme is confirmed town. I’d even argue given the way everything shook out between that role, wheme genuinely looks pretty town. The “Oh wait I am the person youre looking for” after all the gammarci confusion seems too out there to be a cabd/wheme scumteam. Its such a ridiculously hard interaction to coach.

Third, and credit for this goes to fairylit- she mentioned his claim being awkward and inorganic in NQN, but his claim here felt natural.

Dunnstral

This is coming down to PoE. A common thought fairylit and I had day one that if there was a player that has us pocketed, it was Dunn. He hit every single note we had perfectly, and has continued this onto day 2. But therein lies the problem- I can’t remember a time Dunn has hit every note I have thought perfectly, beating us to the punch on several occasions.

There’s also the whole, you know, tracker situation. But yeah.

GuyInFreezer

Giffy had a fine entrance to the game, and there was a decent chunk of solving. Combining this with his claim, a role that removes him from elimination contention, I find it hard to believe he is scum. There are some issues in his ISO, (read:EOD1 hammer) but I still think odds are he’s more town than not. I think that hammer is a ballsy move for Giffy to make as scum.

When discussing with fairylit, she notes his confidence as one of the big points in his favor here- particularly in his final statements about us letting wheme slip through the cracks. She also compared to Illicit, where he played a much goofier game compared to his srsbsns play here.

Lukewarm

I’ll start with the elephant in the room- my biggest issue with Luke’s play so far was his reaction to the fakehammer. Gamma and I have already discussed this earlier on today, but I felt like it was not a genuine response.

That being said, there are redeeming parts of his play in this game (it’s why he's in the top tier of our reads!). I really liked him digging into Cabd’s claim, particularly the flavor parts. As those of us that were present during Bloodstained remember, he was very big into analyzing the flavor to try and sort out what is going on.

Second, his paranoia today has screamed town to the high heavens. It has thawed even my icy heart. 3601 reminds me of the Bloodstained Titus case. 3626 is just frankly, too batshit to be scum. My biggest issue with his recent readslist is I don’t think Gamma/Wheme make sense together, but I understand I am not everybody.

Lady Lambadelta

LLD’s claim is the very first thing that makes me think town, but I need to consider loltowndesharder. When I look at her play under the microscope, her notable things from day one were pushing to eliminate people who proceeded to both flip town. And I understand I am in a glass house here and not trying to dispute it, but it is something that factors into my read. We are both a little curious as to her vote on us over the no discussion vote. We wish she was doing more things today and I do hope she reads this and engages more! Particularly on the Cabd section, as I value her opinion on the topics I’m going to discuss in it.

Overall she is in my POE but I am leaning her town and Dunn scum.

Gamma Emerald

Gamma is an interesting case. First off, let’s discuss their claim. 3768 gamma claims the characters looked alike, but when I compared Rem to Shiro I find it hard to believe this? I could be wrong but wanted to bring this to the general attention. The reason this bothers me ties in with the claim, as Cabd and Gamma have BOTH pointed out out, this is very similar to a certain Beloved Princess claim in a recently completed game. But therein lies the problem- I have NEVER played with a Beloved Princess. And now, all of a sudden, there’s two consecutive? This stretches what I am willing to believe. I suppose the point I’m positing here is if it’s possible that Gamma is lying but claimed a flavor that would fit a beloved princess. This can be taken as its entire own point, and is unique from the others as this is purely speculation on what is going on here.

Now, let’s look at marci’s play- hardcore lurking. As we all know, Scum-marci went down in three hours in Tarot. She has done absolutely nothing of consequence here, besides make one quote wall and make a post about why she was not doing things, but the slot coasted entirely through day one off of Cabd’s (incorrect) say. Had this not occurred, the slot would have most likely faced increased scrutiny. There’s also the notes from Luke about how marci is not likely to be playing the crumbing game like that, at all.

Coming into today, as I’ve already reiterated multiple times, Gamma seems of a one-track mind to discredit us. He admits to this in 3791, that a good chunk of his play today has been a pursuit of revenge for the S_S elim. This parallel’s a comment he has made in Haunted Village regarding MurderCat, one of the main pushers to follow a crumbed guilty on his scum partner. Note how he attempts to use shade over an incorrect read in an early stage of the game to try and pull favor. The strange part of this is his fixation on us. Yes, we did derail the Whemestar wagon (who Gamma now believes is town and has ignored this), onto S_S. But there were other votes on the wagon too. Particularly, Cabd. My issue with Gamma’s play today is that despite a devolving read on Cabd that Gamma speaks to in 3816, there is a dramatic difference in his approaches to us and Cabd despite both of us being on the day one elimination.

Assuming his claim is truthful, there is the core point that Gamma helped vote out the very role that he admits could help handle his role. And while we are on the subject of this vote, let’s take a look at the reasons Gamma gives for his vote, shall we? 3373 He notes it was a snap decision, but tried to change it in the notes PT to wheme. This is my first eyebrow raise, as it is hard to understand submitting an action one way then expecting a submission in another way to count? It seems like a copout. This then kinda gets retconned in 3937, which focuses more on the not digesting the Titus flip enough and ignores the supposed missed vote altogether.

A final note that bugs me is that his scumteam (from the time this was originally written) is similar to the same list WE posted, just with us over him. I find it hard to believe people think we make sense as scum with Cabd, but I understand I might be too close to the issue to see the big picture. Others can feel free to weigh in on this and tell me if they do see it, however. His scumread on Cabd changes as of 4125, around the same time he starts his "do a no elim" for Dunn!

Let’s discuss Gamma’s reaction to the guilty, shall we? He is staunchly in the camp to leave Dunn alive, going so far as to repeatedly attempt to discredit ssbm(4093, 4094, 4193, 4289). This is interesting to me, as when I review Haunted Village, I have Gamma insisting to leave his buddy alive based solely off a fakeclaim, attempting to ignore a crumbed guilty. We also have him saying not to trust us similar to how he tried to make people not trust MurderCat. A similar stance about not trusting someone regarding a townie trying to defend MurderCat. This is an example of Gamma stalling and asking for another day off the guilty, comparable to this, and this. Gamma's recent scumteam is both the person with the guilty and the person trying to see the guilty through! Who's the third? Dunno, you'll have to ask him!

In non-guilty meta data, Gamma pretending to be lost despite a guilty compared to a similar tact pulled here, despite a more drawn out day.

Cabd

This is the part everyone has been waiting for.

Let’s start with the claim. I’ve already said I find it incredibly hard to believe it is a happy accident Cabd posted my exact crumbed word four posts later, so I don’t believe his “I wouldn’t let a masonizer fferysci live” on that principle.

Second, even if I DO believe that, let’s look at his intro to today. It almost feels like he’s worried we had a guilty on him with it. But that’s how I feel about his interpretation to our crumbs. I just find it weird we are on such opposite sides of the spectrum with this given combined history.

I’m going to not go into Gamma associatives at this point, but I think there is a plethora of suspicious interactions there.

The manatee vote is absolutely awful. As much as Cabd’s tried to insist that it isn’t similar at all to Yggrasill, I disagree. He had a scumpool in 2512 that as the pre-day elim had multiple townflips in. One of which was Titus, who while not flipping at EOD1 did flip overnight and had multiple people with LESS setup background in the same pool of what happened. It’s really strange to me that Cabd would both not vote no-elim, and then be so singleminded and not consider all options before voting manatee. Manatee, who provides town a second elim and a second chance to hit scum. Who flipped town.

Now, let’s look at how Cabd has approached us today! The main focus of his posting has been us, which is standard. However, it is about our read, getting us to see his alignment. To use a bork turn of phrase, he’s trying to play around this tonally. There is so much focus on hitting the frustration that we can’t see his alignment (which is weird given last he spoke he was scumreading us, despite alluding to the read changing over the course of the day) but no focus on finding the scum if it is outside of him. It feels a lot like shutting down to avoid giving out any more information than anything else to me.

Even the morph interactions on 9/15 feel like Cabd is petitioning fairylit to change my read. There is a good amount of AtE, a lot of the same heartstrings I played myself on the backend of Bloodstained. But then consistently dodges opportunities to talk about the other members of the game- and I realize he is sick and am taking this with a grain of salt, but it’s still concerning. He likened my confidence to Yggdrasil morph, but with worse reads. Despite not commenting on any read but his own. This hyper-fixation on his own play instead of the world around him is concerning.

He even is trying to play a “Explain how scum me would play this role” despite knowing that a supposed scum-Cabd would know his buddies flavor, and could easily make a statement like that that would either A) be claimed with someone or b) be viewed as a red herring altogether. He explicitly said he wanted to play it how Bell should have played it, and I struggle to see why we should townread him for it? For playing the role to the letter how its supposed to be played with no variation, in a game where the entire context lies in variation?

I’ve sat back and let fairylit try to talk to him and get him reimmersed, and all he’s tried to do is “show her the light.” Cabd has shown he knows how to get on her good side, and he’s going all out to do that instead of trying to find the scum that we would supposedly be missing. That’s my problem with his play today, and this all is why I need a second opinion from LLD.

I don’t really have much to say but just look at the stances on everyone and think about what Kate is going for here

[Kate Bishop]

heh.

[Kate Bishop]

Kill Dunn>Rolecop Cabd (and if he flips ANYTHING other than Informed townie kill him on the spot)>Kill Gamma. If we die and Cabd is just "Informed" y'all can look at a different third scum option.

I would like to hammer.

[Lukewarm]

From my pov, the chances that [gamma, Dunn] contain at least one scum are increasing my the second, as we have not gotten a scum quick hammer yet.

If gamma is really a town beloved princess, then a quick hammer on him is a scum win even if gif were to come back tomorrow.

So it is looking like either gamma is scum or Dunn is scum so the scum team does not have quick hammer potential right now.

(Or both are scum)

[Lukewarm]

I personally want to leave it as is, no one else voting, for several more hours. Long enough for everyone to check in.

Then we can discuss which we killing today

[Kate Bishop]

Both are scum. I just think it makes most sense to resolve the mechanical guilty first.

Not upset to kill Gamma first. I still want the hammer.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

why do you want the hammer?

Like you're on suspect watch this day and I feel like I'm the one with a swing vote in the middle trying to sort this shit

[Kate Bishop]

Because I would take great joy in not only dunking scum-gamma, but also being the final vote in the dunk.

Like, you think you're the swing vote, sure. If you take a quick look back at everything Gamma has done today, the main three things are A) discredit us, b) discredit SSBM, and C) try to assert his role has to exist. I don't know how often you've seen a beloved princess, but I have only ever seen it the one time and find it REALLY difficult to believe there's another one this soon.

Between Dunn and SSBM, there's a consistency in SSBM's iso that lends itself to the tracker claim. For instance, lasering in on Titus's gravedigger comments back on day one. The vote on dunn to telegraph it over the no-discussion vote.

Cabd we already laid out.

I know you hate walls but I have it pretty clearly laid out in my wall on the last page about why Gamma is scum and how his play around the Dunn guilty lines up with his play in Haunted Village when trying to defend his buddy from a guilty. I have quote links and everything.

[Kate Bishop]

Like, I *will* vote early if you make me

I just want to hammer for shits and giggles

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Because I would take great joy in not only dunking scum-gamma, but also being the final vote in the dunk.

Like, you think you're the swing vote, sure. If you take a quick look back at everything Gamma has done today, the main three things are A) discredit us, b) discredit SSBM, and C) try to assert his role has to exist. I don't know how often you've seen a beloved princess, but I have only ever seen it the one time and find it REALLY difficult to believe there's another one this soon.

Between Dunn and SSBM, there's a consistency in SSBM's iso that lends itself to the tracker claim. For instance, lasering in on Titus's gravedigger comments back on day one. The vote on dunn to telegraph it over the no-discussion vote.

Cabd we already laid out.

I know you hate walls but I have it pretty clearly laid out in my wall on the last page about why Gamma is scum and how his play around the Dunn guilty lines up with his play in Haunted Village when trying to defend his buddy from a guilty. I have quote links and everything.

Are we assuming that GIF is coming back tomorrow night and so this isn't MELO?

[Kate Bishop]

That seems to be consensus.

As a side note, I don’t think gammas actual flavor lines up with comments he made earlier (Rem does not look like Shiro imo) so I’m not sure I believe that in the first place?

We want Cabd checked by Wheme overnight. But Gamma has been on a one track defend Dunn and Cabd mentality for the better part of the day.

[WhemeStar]

FUCK IT IF WE LOSE WE LSOE

VOTE: GAMMA

[Gamma Emerald]

sigh
I really hoped I could have done better. Wheme is there any way I can change your mind? I feel like Kate is trying to twist my words against me, I admitted to the flavor similarities being a stretch but that boils down to Cabd using vague descriptors

[Gamma Emerald]