Open 833: Twin Trap [Postgame]

[Vulture]

Hi, haven’t been following, will catch up today.

[Vulture]

I read and can go in depth after work, but I am both individually and teamreading redtea and Noraa as scum. Redtea is my preferred vote between the two, as I think Noraa’s personality and approach lends itself to being scumread from me.

But if they’re teamed they just came into today pushing on each other and hard distancing which is funny. I wasn’t sure about this but the pivot from Deimos to redtea was a ! moment.

VOTE: redtea

[Vulture]

I don't think hard distancing is the way scum act here when we're royally chasing our tails.

I don’t feel this game is tail-chasing in particular and with individual suspicion on both it’s an option.

...despite that, I’m not 100% sure it is S/S. Just had that awkward pivot where Noraa said “actually, these reasons work on redtea, anyone wanna bite?”

Could also be max 1 scum in them and it’s genuine pushing on one another. Dunno.

[Vulture]

To build a little tinfoil hut here, I guess one motivation could be they killed 1/5 on the Dorsey wagon and didn’t feel comfortable pushing on NM or Norwee.

Meh, feels weak even as I typed it lol.

[Vulture]

I’m a townie birdie. You’ll warm up to it.

[Vulture]

all I have to say is I'm wary of trying to read Deimos early after our last game so I'm not gonna have anything there for a while.

otherwsie- nope
but I can see how many people I can convince to vote nm with me VOTE: notmafiaVOTE: notmafiaVOTE: notmafiaVOTE: notmafia

Is the first elimination always town? Because how are you supposed to know who's who?

Majority of the time it is town because town have the majority. But it's not exactly a bad thing if it does end up being town who is eliminated, it can sometimes end up for the greater good.

Two words: temporal scope.

If redtea said that it's likelier for town to be eliminated

today

because

they

are the majority, I'd be jumping for joy. But given that they instead made the generalised claim that town is

always

the likelier elimination, I see "they" as a far more natural and grammatical pronoun than "we", because games where redtea either isn't playing or isn't town-aligned are included in "always".

This is a town post, with a town perspective/mindset.

I haven't read up and dont really plan to but idk what ur on. NM has some pretty sexy reads despite the fact that he doesn't post much. So get ur facts straight.

VOTE: Noraa

This pinging me.

This is pinging me.

I'm sure you are not mafia

Do u have READS

I don't feel the need to respond to redtea's posts this page because I think Norwee summarised my point very well here.

And it's not just "do you have reads", it's "where have you shown that you are trying to generate reads", y'know.

I get that most of the content so far is RVS and there are other players who have lacking analysis but redtea is one of us who has posted the most so I was hoping for

something

from them.

I'm afraid you expect too much.
Also the answer to "where" is "nowhere" except in response to kop #163 recently and Dorsey #121-#122.

looking at Dorsey's iso, I was hella ignored so
VOTE: Dorsey

That question goes for everyone else too actually.

I've played one game in recent memory with a50 and that's ongoing iirc.
why?

I refuse to believe Dorsey's town flip and will play the rest of the game believing this is a 3 scum set-up

same tbh umu

VOTE: Not_Mafia

lmao
why

didn't have any better ideas or?

fair enough ig
VOTE: Not_Mafia so he can show up and do something so I can unvote him again

nm death tunneled dunn in true love 1028 from the get go and he was on the money and i never forgot

then again it was like three months ago or something

enough
VOTE: Nora's
if you flip town I won't be happy

...redtea is softballing the NM stuff and always moves elsewhere so I don’t think redtea/NM(Dragons) is ruled out.

Especially since redtea didn’t go “cool!” or something to Tamara voting NM but went “why?” which doesn’t... match the mindset of “let’s kill NM!”

[Vulture]

Fresh eyes help.

[Vulture]

Redtea/NM is the new cool solve.

[Vulture]

Pretty sure that redtea’s just scum. The people calling him that are towny and this game has a weak little POE remaining.

[Vulture]

We should set NM to E-1 specifically so he is unable to do his self-vote opening

What makes you think N_M reads before he posts?

wake up babes new scum strat just dropped

Is the first elimination always town? Because how are you supposed to know who's who?

I'm a little confused
but no it's not always town, but town is, numbers-wise, always the most likely elimination, as they are the majority

This is the Thing that made me pay attention to redtea initially. The wording is stilted to me ("I'm a little confused") and I guess it feels... dunno, something that's thrown in but it doesn't feel right. It's a weak beginning but having some insight as to what happens later as well (knowing the flips + wagon) made me have more attention on certain slots.

Two words: temporal scope.

If redtea said that it's likelier for town to be eliminated

today

because

they

are the majority, I'd be jumping for joy. But given that they instead made the generalised claim that town is

always

the likelier elimination, I see "they" as a far more natural and grammatical pronoun than "we", because games where redtea either isn't playing or isn't town-aligned are included in "always".

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it was empirically +scum to use "we" in a context like that because such pronoun tells are fairly popular and something I know I've been self-conscious about before as scum, increasing the probability of making a sentence less grammatical for the sake of using the alignment-consistent pronoun.

My two cents.

oooh. Now I get it.
Well I'm sure glad there's someone smart here to make a concise defense. We would've ended up in a stupid 1v1 where I flail to try to convey this idea.

I feel like I'm usually pretty aware of my language when I'm offering game explanations like that, town or scum. I haven't scumslipped like that yet but ig there's a first time for everything.

This, too, is a stretch, I guess it feels like... pre-emptively defensive? "I would've flailed." Like, an excuse for stuff that didn't even happen which to me carries an implication of some kind of like... unmanifested guilt, is the best way to word this. Also the second part feels the same, maybe a bit cheeky.

I think redtea got slightly scummier over [their] last few posts btw

.....
i'm just. Going to let people on this list who've played more with me address this. I really don't see anything out of the ordinary, so if nothing else, it'll tell me who to scumread.

This, in conjunction with something else replied to Deimos27, makes me think that redtea is a bit afraid to engage Deimos in general and doesn't want to pick a fight/fall back on others for defense.

I haven't read up and dont really plan to but idk what ur on. NM has some pretty sexy reads despite the fact that he doesn't post much. So get ur facts straight.

true facts, he hasn't led me astray yet I think.
Then again I don't know if I've played against scum!NM recently if at all. For all I know scum!NM can't even be found without finding his buddies first. That's the impression I've been getting from others.

I want to vote the monkey. There's evidence to suggest he's evil, and his personality is not preferable.

VOTE: Almost50

Lol jk VOTE: Kop Let's figure out who's bad

I have time, let's talk. What should we discuss?

what made kop seem like a better start over a50?

personally, i keep trying to see if nm can be sorted early but i haven't been able to get that to happen yet.

More attention on NM, not inherently why redtea is scummy to me, but it feels important to highlight the weird stances that they take on him.

Is the first elimination always town? Because how are you supposed to know who's who?

Because I find it easier to believe that this is scum poorly faking noobtown than town with two completed games already still making such a noobish comment.

to me it seemed like Dorsey brought the question up because of having experienced a repeated pattern with limited data. That's how I understood it.

A small defense of Dorsey which I feel undermines what is already a weak vote on Dorsey.

Even for page 6 I think you are concerningly IIoA. There's an obsessiveness with self-meta and a complete absence of any semblance of an attempt to sort another player

Maybe because that's exactly what I was doing? Specifically shooting down weird analysis with easily accessible information?

okay, never mind. You're right. It's only worth anything if meta is something someone wants to or has the time to do. And if they don't then yeah, what I'm saying is useless. If I had accompanying commentary that didn't require that extra reading it would be one thing, but I didn't.

I got annoyed people don't automatically want to play the way I'm playing and it was dumb. If you pings were felt from whatever was in my first few posts you got pings. And if you get pings from THIS post, that's how it is.

I apologize.

^ This is what I meant by redtea wanting to placate Deimos: the apology and backing down when it comes to people who I think redtea might be afraid of, gamestate-wise. Deimos is townread by I think everyone, but rather than talking about it or going back and forth or anything redtea... tries to explain and apologize. Granted, there's a bit of snark to it, but even so including it at the end feels very... formal.

all I have to say is I'm wary of trying to read Deimos early after our last game so I'm not gonna have anything there for a while.

otherwsie- nope
but I can see how many people I can convince to vote nm with me VOTE: notmafiaVOTE: notmafiaVOTE: notmafiaVOTE: notmafia

looking at Dorsey's iso, I was hella ignored so
VOTE: Dorsey

is nm pocketing me?

Nah, I'm good

mod should let me vote twice just for this

(I didn't quote everything from redtea but I feel this little back and forth is giga-fucked.) Like oh, vanity vote on NM, a wagon pops up? Yeah I got ignored, choo-choo let's hop on. It doesn't feel justified given the early comment about Dorsey.

if norwee seems town he's probably scum
but trying to sort norwee early doesnt seem to turn out well so don't expect me to go after him

So are you null on him rn or what?

functionally

Day 2 I believe now for this, Deimos dragging out an answer that's clipped, wishywashy basis for the Norwee thing like "well I won't do it but here's some shade."

VOTE: Not_Mafia

lmao
why

didn't have any better ideas or?

fair enough ig
VOTE: Not_Mafia so he can show up and do something so I can unvote him again

nm death tunneled dunn in true love 1028 from the get go and he was on the money and i never forgot

then again it was like three months ago or something

This is... pretty horrible, honestly. Redtea has been voting NM before, expressed the want, spammed it, and then is like. "Why are you doing that you can't find anyone lol?" Like what in the world? It seems like Redtea forgot the stance or in the moment slipped towards trying to soft-defend NM/question why someone would go there when they... were trying to garner that attention before. And seems gloomy that someone is even testing the waters on it despite D1.

enough
VOTE: Nora's
if you flip town I won't be happy

And then this entire push on you, Noraa, is... it's perhaps the thing Redtea has believed in most during this game, and in a position where they are somewhat-scumread by people as are you, it is beneficial to push you over someone like, TA, Norwee, etc, who would both bite back and most likely not be eliminated over redtea. It's an easy pickings sort of deal as your name has been bandied about.

Basically, not a lot of real opinions, not a lot of want to push said opinions unless they're necessary, on the Dorsey wagon (I believe the people other than your hammer, tbh, were much townier than redtea), afraid of confrontation. In a game where I feel at this time there is a definition between towny people (Norwee, Deimos, and TA) and the rest, redtea stands out as the Worst Offender.

[Vulture]

But hey, there you go.

inb4 I was right when I joined it's redtea/Noraa and they both work together to get me elimmed today and 480's the walkback on a partner.

[Vulture]

I mean, I've seen it and done it before. I don't think it's a good play, but it is one that's done.

[Vulture]

Looking at the wagon, I think it is a possibility that the scum felt boxed into a degree.

Your scumgame has improved recently, but neither does it make you infalliable/unable to make subpar decisions.

[Vulture]

Basically tl;dr because I find arguing with you an exhausting headache at times, you are not a bad scum player but not omniscient, so a 'bad play' is possible. I am not pushing it as the most likely and my comment about your backtracking is mostly snark.

[Vulture]

I only made that comment because I have already slipped previously on this alt.

(:

[Vulture]

Think carefully about how you want to engage me.

[Vulture]

!

[Vulture]

All I know is that you don't know me and I don't know you so there's nothing to think about

Lmao.

[Vulture]

Lmao.

[Vulture]

Better to go through my games to find out.

[Vulture]

No, actually.

You'd know why I am not if you checked.

[Vulture]

Nope.

[Vulture]

Gotta put in the legwork.

[Vulture]

It's not a matter of guessing. I have quite literally alt slipped.

[Vulture]

See? Easy.

[Vulture]

Builds the spirit up.

[Vulture]

If you think that I am going to use the past ~10 or so posts as anything other than my own amusement for making you dig for my main account you have a poor understanding of how I function as a player.

[Vulture]

At best, giving you the information/making you find it allows you to see better my perspective, particularly regarding my view of you as a scum player.

[Vulture]

I am town for my contributions thus far. I do not have the strength of a vote/wagon/etc to support this, but at the very least I have proven I am thinking through the pieces of this game and not going with 'easy options' simply because they are easy, but because I believe they are scum.

Your turn.

[Vulture]

If you think that I am going to use the past ~10 or so posts as anything other than my own amusement for making you dig for my main account you have a poor understanding of how I function as a player.

Don't think I've ever truly understood you. I've tunneled you as town. Completely misread guilties from you as scum. I dont get your play even though I keep thinking I'm starting to get it.

This is perhaps more sincere of an answer than I expected, frankly, which means I don't quite get all the nuances there either.

(None of this was done out of ill will, either.)

[Vulture]

At best, giving you the information/making you find it allows you to see better my perspective, particularly regarding my view of you as a scum player.

Perhaps. I always struggle playing with you as town because I'm always so scared of being pocketed and it's kind of stupid because the actual game that you are scum and I am town, I just know I'll get pocketed in an instant. But I also swear we're never the same alignment but maybe alts change that who knows.

Fun fact: I roll town on this alt a whole lot more, and have only rolled it once. Repped into a scum slot, but otherwise majority town.

I also do not play as I traditionally do as scum on this account, anyways.

[Vulture]

Mmm.

I'll sleep on that statement because I don't know if the way you've spoken about your hammer is taking responsibility, but I am bored and tired now, so good night.

[Vulture]

Meh.

Last time I checked redtea had called my case stupid but that wasn't worth engaging with. I feel like if there was more oomph behind them, I wouldn't have to hand hold and go, "Why is it stupid, redtea?" Shouldn't have to pull teeth to get a rebuttal.

No reason to change my vote.

[Vulture]

Hmm i like post 482 from Vulture. (The case on Redtea)
So that makes me want to do Redtea.
I feel like they haven’t been openly or brazenly scum. But they are struggling a bit to keep up with other people’s towniness. Which makes me think they could just be scum that’s having a bit of a rough one right now.
I can’t really remember any post that made me think: "ah yes, this comes from town."
VOTE: Redtea

fair assessment but I can't believe you agreed with vulture's case
"case"
which is another point towards scum!you this game IMO but I also want to see what others think about it

Vulture I just want you to know your case on me is atrociously stupid.

Wow, great counter.

WHY is it "stupid"?

I think I wanted to see how seriously people took it before bothering to respond

Like looking now ^. Why wouldn't you sincerely engage it if you like... cared about solving, I guess. You're waiting to read the room before you decide what to do and spelling it out for everyone to see.

[Vulture]

I'm probably going to phone it in until/if redtea breaks it down for me why I'm wrong on them.

[Vulture]

Gonna have to spell it out.

[Vulture]

So, everyone agrees that redtea is a good elim, but then I need to specifically die for it because...?

I think everyone's giving redtea the time to actually do something to try and defend themselves but they're not. Reads more like low WIM scum.

[Vulture]

I kinda think ur the scum out of the two right now. I could be wrong and I guess we should hope I am otherwise tomorrow is elo. It reads more like town who doesn't know wtf to do than low WIM scum to me at least.

Okay so you're calling me scum but you're not actually saying why.

[Vulture]

Okay so, you've thought about it, you think redtea has a chance to be scum, you have an idea of who's scum with them.

But you still want to kill me... even though you're also admitting that you don't really scumread me...?

[Vulture]

Started here:

Ok actually redtea's ISO is much worse than I originally thought now having read thru some of it after looking for that quote.

Basically all of redteas iso is just agreeing with someone or shading people.

spicy idea

Nope. That's not the problem.

I don't reference ongoing or use things I can't point to. How do you think you've changed?

tfw you hit submit a second too late

fair enough

(this isn't copy-pasted from my other post like this, this is paraphrased using my memory):

Spoiler:

I've been trying to find a balance between more casual play and tryharding, because doing the latter all the time gets stressful eventually bc of the expectations I put on myself; knowing the effect lurking can have on your slot is additional pressure. In an effort to keep having fun, I've been experimenting with my playstyle, to mixed results. I'm still figuring it out the ideal effort/fun/results ratio.

I haven't read up and dont really plan to but idk what ur on. NM has some pretty sexy reads despite the fact that he doesn't post much. So get ur facts straight.

true facts

, he hasn't led me astray yet I think.
Then again I don't know if I've played against scum!NM recently if at all. For all I know scum!NM can't even be found without finding his buddies first. That's the impression I've been getting from others.

I want to vote the monkey. There's evidence to suggest he's evil, and his personality is not preferable.

VOTE: Almost50

Lol jk VOTE: Kop Let's figure out who's bad

I have time, let's talk. What should we discuss?

what made kop seem like a better start over a50?

personally, i keep trying to see if nm can be sorted early but i haven't been able to get that to happen yet.

Even for page 6 I think you are concerningly IIoA. There's an obsessiveness with self-meta and a complete absence of any semblance of an attempt to sort another player

Maybe because that's exactly what I was doing? Specifically shooting down weird analysis with easily accessible information?

okay, never mind. You're right.

It's only worth anything if meta is something someone wants to or has the time to do. And if they don't then yeah, what I'm saying is useless. If I had accompanying commentary that didn't require that extra reading it would be one thing, but I didn't.

I got annoyed people don't automatically want to play the way I'm playing and it was dumb. If you pings were felt from whatever was in my first few posts you got pings. And if you get pings from THIS post, that's how it is.

I apologize.

looking at Dorsey's iso, I was hella ignored so
VOTE: Dorsey

eek

is nm pocketing me?

Nah, I'm good

mod should let me vote twice just for this

shade

Norwee how much have you played with Noraa

A couple of games.

Upon re-reading D1 I shouldn't have bothered asking because you are likely town

if norwee seems town he's probably scum
but trying to sort norwee early doesnt seem to turn out well so don't expect me to go after him

[quote="In"post 287, Noraa"]

Pray tell why you would assume my comment pertained to the Dorsey flip instead of the almost50 nk, especially given all the context immediately following?

almost was literally almost certainly not vt by tone and the way he was so slippery feeling. i dont see how anyone can look back and be like oh its surprising almost was a pr.

what Deimos said about this

but also like, he clearly made that first comment BEFORE isoing aka "looking back at" almost50, sooo what's your deal exactly?

SHADE

But they're unlikely to be confbiasing because they expressed a tr on me D1 so it's more likely these posts come from a scum agenda.

hahahahahahah this applies to you far better than myself unfortunately

this sounds ridiculous and if you want anyone to take it seriously you better do some PbPA

Shade~

Nora's post sounds baseless and omgus

Shade ^^

if norwee seems town he's probably scum
but trying to sort norwee early doesnt seem to turn out well so don't expect me to go after him

So are you null on him rn or what?

functionally

So you saying you think my play is townie but that is something you think is scummy for me?

Sorta
I thiiiink if you sound towny but relatively sober (not in an alcohol consumption sense), that points towards scum!you

Shade~~

fair enough ig

VOTE: Not_Mafia so he can show up and do something so I can unvote him again

[/quote]

I actually think the reason I think Deimos is scum applies much better to redtea here. Like all those votes look opportunistic as fuck and they're unwilling to give a single straight up read?? That iso is PACKED with shade.

Like the thing is. Redtea is clearly reading. But they aren't actually contributing anything to the game. All of the posts are agreeing with shit that doesn't matter or shading people/refusing to actually give reads. The level of engagement with the thread and the 1 dimensional reads do not match up ESPECIALLY given that join date. Like there really is no excuse here. You wanna mark Deimos off as stubborn town, sure I can believe it. This is really different. This has nothing to do with stubbornness. This is clear engagement with the thread and no legitimate thought process besides pocketing and poking around looking for soft spots

Ok here lets rise the stakes because I think I'm definitely right. If redtea is town, elim me tomorrow.
I dont think I'm wrong because this behavior just doesn't come from town.

Actually thats sort of game throwing idk if I can say that but that's how certain I am. Redtea's play checks off all the boxes in the scum checklist here. agreeable, floaty, shady, uncertain, every. single. box.

To here:

the overall speed of this wagon is really slow when most people agree with it.
if red tea is scum, p sure I know who the buddy is.
but i think vulture needs to go today instead now.

er that was worded very poorly

what i meant was that it seems too perfect to be real. my main thing is that i think redtea would've moved the vote off of me by now if scum. no reason to not get some supporters in a time like this. they just aren't trying at all to get TRs and it doesn't feel right.

I kinda think ur the scum out of the two right now. I could be wrong and I guess we should hope I am otherwise tomorrow is elo. It reads more like town who doesn't know wtf to do than low WIM scum to me at least.

Like what is this change. Lol.

[Vulture]

I actually think the reason I think Deimos is scum applies much better to redtea here. Like all those votes look opportunistic as fuck and they're unwilling to give a single straight up read?? That iso is PACKED with shade.

Like the thing is. Redtea is clearly reading. But they aren't actually contributing anything to the game. All of the posts are agreeing with shit that doesn't matter or shading people/refusing to actually give reads. The level of engagement with the thread and the 1 dimensional reads do not match up ESPECIALLY given that join date. Like there really is no excuse here.

You wanna mark Deimos off as stubborn town, sure I can believe it. This is really different. This has nothing to do with stubbornness. This is clear engagement with the thread and no legitimate thought process besides pocketing and poking around looking for soft spots

yeah essentially.

redtea has done absolutely nothing to pressure. they haven't budged a single bit and thats pretty insane for scum to do.

even if i do think they could be scum with certain people and dont really scum read you, i still think redtea isn't likely scum.

everyone has a chance to be scum so that doesn't apply

[Vulture]

Like what is this change. Lol.

redteas iso is bad. their reaction to pressure is extremely concerning in a very different way and it's been bothering me for a while why everyone just agrees it's scummy. Because when everyone agrees someone is scum, it's either horrible scum or just town.

So you admit you dislike their iso enough to case it. You think they're very concerning. You wonder why most people agree that it's scummy?

Because, the majority of people in this game are town, who are recognizing scummy behavior. Redtea, if scum,

is not doing anything that a partner can defend.

[Vulture]

It's literally the town nodding because their iso is bad and then their partner not having anything they can do/salvage from the iso so they nod along too, and said partner doesn't hammer because oh, people are willing to give redtea time to try, so they can try to see what happens.

[Vulture]

I think it's subpar play, tbh, to undermine an ISO worth casing by saying 'they're not doing anything, it's town!' when there are also plausible explanations for why scum would react this way.

[Vulture]

I haven't interacted with redtea AFAIK. They called my case stupid, that's it.

[Vulture]

I haven't interacted with redtea AFAIK. They called my case stupid, that's it.

So, like, you disagree with my case then even though we outlined, more or less, the same reasons to dislike redtea or you don't. There's no 'interaction' to judge.

[Vulture]

like what? scum wants to live more than anyone else in the game. i just dont see scum behaving this way and you hard pushing redtea is just not helping in the slightest.

This makes no sense.

I'm hardpushing them. Yes. If they're town they can deign to respond to my case and talk to me instead of saying "just wanted to see what everyone else thinks before I decide if I need to run damage control."

[Vulture]

no there was interactions between the cases. i cant remember if it was direct or not but there was interactions that I found scummy. Initially I thought redtea was scum out of the two but now I'm not so certain

Please quote where I have interacted with redtea beyond ISOing them.

[Vulture]

like what? scum wants to live more than anyone else in the game. i just dont see scum behaving this way and you hard pushing redtea is just not helping in the slightest.

This makes no sense.

I'm hardpushing them. Yes. If they're town they can deign to respond to my case and talk to me instead of saying "just wanted to see what everyone else thinks before I decide if I need to run damage control."

how in the world does that make more sense coming from scum than town? it literally doesn't make sense as either but makes a hell lot more sense as town than scum.

It makes sense if scum are frozen and don't know what to do and they're unsure of how to reply. It's pretty simple.

[Vulture]

Where are the interactions, please?

[Vulture]

Why?

[Vulture]

Vulture I just want you to know your case on me is atrociously stupid.

This was the response to like 7 different posts. I remember thinking that was a strange interaction.

It could come from different possibilities.
if redtea were town, they were overwhelmed and didnt know what to say
if scum, they wanted to just "end" the argument.

thats the best way to explain how its a negative interaction but it's hard to say who is scum

...so, you said there were interactions and I said the only thing that redtea said was my case was stupid. I have already pointed this out. Where are the other interactions?

Why?

Feels like you did read up...

Yes, I did. In fact, if you read the first two words of that post I said 'I read.'

[Vulture]

I read

and can go in depth after work, but I am both individually and teamreading redtea and Noraa as scum. Redtea is my preferred vote between the two, as I think Noraa’s personality and approach lends itself to being scumread from me.

But if they’re teamed they just came into today pushing on each other and hard distancing which is funny. I wasn’t sure about this but the pivot from Deimos to redtea was a ! moment.

VOTE: redtea

I dont like this entrance post in hindsight

[Vulture]

The interaction is unsettling in the sense that you are directly SRing while redtea is indirectly SRing. This interaction is just very scummy and likely SvT

TvT doesn't look like this. There is almost always a back and forth that is direct and straight forward for TvT
SvS always looks more natural than this. These are much harder to catch.
Makes the most sense as SvT

...okay, so why am I the scum in this "interaction" again...?

[Vulture]

I remember you said you didn't read though

I did not read prior to joining in. I caught up in the ~1.5 hours as this game was short.

[Vulture]

Like, you're going to have to plainly spell out why I am scum for pushing someone who I think is scummy, who everyone else /also/ thinks is scummy, and why it is my fault that their lack of rebuttal to me makes me scum.

[Vulture]

i already answered this and either way it doesn't matter. if you are town, you believe redtea will flip scum so you have nothing to worry about.

Nope, it does matter. You just tried to derail the redtea wagon, so you have to own up to that.

[Vulture]

i dont get what the purpose of this even was from town you

Purpose of what? Replying to someone who voted me?

Pray tell, what am I supposed to do if not that?

[Vulture]

Maybe I should have taken a leaf out of redtea's book and have just called everything you said stupid.

[Vulture]

and why it is my fault that their lack of rebuttal to me makes me scum.

scummy interactions always have scum. this read has only failed me once in the past. it is one of my few reads that have been correct throughout games and if you're scum, you know exactly why you're scum.

No, I don't. Lay it out for me because I have yet to understand why you're putting the weight of redtea's inaction and words on my alignment.

[Vulture]

i dont get what the purpose of this even was from town you

Purpose of what? Replying to someone who voted me?

Pray tell, what am I supposed to do if not that?

Instead you just asked me why like three times and I replied three times. What do you get from that as town???

What do I get from interacting from someone calling me scum for poor reasons? The ability to have them explain their mindset and point out the poor reasons and have people recognize what they are saying.

[Vulture]

and why it is my fault that their lack of rebuttal to me makes me scum.

scummy interactions always have scum. this read has only failed me once in the past. it is one of my few reads that have been correct throughout games and if you're scum, you know exactly why you're scum.

No, I don't. Lay it out for me because I have yet to understand why you're putting the weight of redtea's inaction and words on my alignment.

your red role pm would be the reason....

"You are scum because you have a scum PM."

Yep. You got me.

[Vulture]

What else is there to do?

[Vulture]

...yes, as seen by me having a better case for redtea and then also changing my mind on Noraa being scum with redtea to you being scum with redtea.

[Vulture]

I feel like shit right now ‘cause I’m sick, dwelling on Noraa’s redtea defense as TMI or something and will come back with a conclusion on if I think that or not later. Makes it way more annoying when they outright say “why would I defend redtea as scum like this”. Wifom sucks.

Back to bed for me.

[Vulture]

I'm tired and feel like crap and probably not going to put a lot more thought into this game. If I'm wrong scum'll hammer if not, happy to confirm that it's between me/Noraa today. Partner's probably STD who's finding every reason to waffle on Noraa and shade me for voting redtea, even though I had laid out a lot more reasoning why redtea was scum in my eyes at the time of posting that content.

VOTE: Noraa

tl;dr Noraa pushed redtea with the same reasons that they used to describe their viewpoint of the game in 724 (also, note that this post does the most work in giving a reason to townread TA who is townreading Noraa) earlier on, and then switched to defending redtea at the end of the day yesterday so that they could make a WIFOM argument of 'why would I do this as scum!' Also the hammer D1. Also, they're giving reasons to townread everyone to keep their options open.

[Vulture]

*weak party streamers.*

[Vulture]

I'm going to take some more allergy medicine so have fun everyone, we'll see if I pop back in here.

[Vulture]

Yeah, it does. You throw out a reason to townread everyone as to not alienate someone who might work with you, and then hunt down who you want to kill once you know the lay of things.

Pretty simple.

[Vulture]

Meh. Game’s lost because of Tamora so.

Noraa just sat there poking around at what someone would theoretically do as scum instead of going back over the game itself and it doesn’t get much more obvious busywork and attempting to fake-solve than that.

[Vulture]

FWIW I ~feel strongly~ it’s Noraa and STD and given that one of those is a radically harder elim than the other, I tried to force it today so tomorrow could be an easy day of voting out STD.

[Vulture]

Work time now.

[Vulture]

When I see “feels strongly” I assume someone’s not changing their mind tbh.

[Vulture]

Like if you’re willing to listen to me: Noraa opened today townreading everyone to get a lay of the land (not pocketing, but keeping slightly on good sides) and then picked someone to try and kill. They’re making posts explaining their view of the game that contradict how they treated redtea’s slot for the sole purpose of pocketing you.

[Vulture]

Also, looks like they were setting up this situation in calling the interactions between me and redtea (that didn’t exist) as TvS and then also calling me the scum in them for illogical reasons (which I was pointing out even then). They had no reason to flip flop on redtea and only outed their “viewpoint” of the game after they were already dead. Defending redtea was strictly to make the argument they don’t do that as scum.

[Vulture]

I don’t really think I need to say much on the desperation Noraa has to get Tamara to vote.

[Vulture]

Do you want me to quote the game where you directly defended all of your scum partners? Scum you is direct, yes.

[Vulture]

Okay, I’ll quote the Final Fantasy game when I’m home.

If anyone wants to check that before I am home, Noraa directly defended her scum partners on the Mystic Bears account. Noraa is direct as scum and it’s an open lie to say otherwise.

[Vulture]

I mean, it’s not twisting if I am sourcing a game that finished like ~two weeks ago that people can also read.

[Vulture]

At least one of us has made a coherent case here.

—

Feeling sicker today so minimal presence, game’s Final Fantasy for aforementioned meta. Defended SirCakez, Elsa Jay, etc etc. The comparison is in mentality (direct/blunt/open) rather than the actions themselves. Back to bed.

Also @TA: holding you more accountable now than before because of your identity. Reference back to that game thanks.

[Vulture]

Cheers to a town loss.

[Vulture]

I think I’d be more annoyed if I played from the start but meh.

[Vulture]

Why wouldn't I just bus. Zzz.

Whoever's the town btwn Norwee and Tamora, nice throw.

[Vulture]

(StD in a shocking turn of events gets to be town. Woo.)

[Vulture]

Why wouldn't I just bus. Zzz.

Whoever's the town btwn Norwee and Tamora, nice throw.

You cant win without Fenny :/

...yes, I can? Lol.

It just goes to final 3.

[Vulture]

There's no scum motivation to force a play that allows town to hammer test and do as they will to clear one another in certain configurations by forcing my hand here as scum to kill you, when I could just bus, kill someone and work with two people instead of four.

[Vulture]

Like clearly everyone here wanted/was amicable to kill StD. Why do I go against the grain and force something infinitely harder for myself. Please, tell me.

p-edit: ...I mean, Norwee thought I was townie and aligned with my thoughts, yes? I can go back and quote the posts where he did that. Pocketing is kind of the thing I 'do' as scum. Why wouldn't I try to convince Norwee instead of doing this, exactly?

[Vulture]

You haven't done anything but out your scum team and bet on town hammering me thinking that play cant come from scum

...again, why do I do this as scum when I have a much easier path to win, exactly?

What have you done to refute my points against you? What have you done this game that's towny? 'Tone.' Right.

Lest we forget the hammer on D1. Lmao.

[Vulture]

I think arguably your reaction/treatment of me when you figured out who I was signals that you were afraid of me.

(This alt is like, all but outed anyways, so: hi, I'm Ydrasse.)

[Vulture]

I don't think I've ever seen you in endgame situations, except like... Death Curse, which you lost...

[Vulture]

I do think it's a little funny though because throughout all of this, you're still slipping a little bit the mindset that you can never die at night, even when you're positing me as scum. Because I can kill you if I'm scum, yeah? And you're not even considering that. There's no scenario that you've thought about that has you as a nightkill which is like... hmmm.

[Vulture]

I mean, you didn't pocket me forever; I was at the point where I was literally saying "hey, please look at this person's play, it's weird." So, ya know. Also the posts where you were freaking out over the check.

And no, you're not suggesting that I ever nightkill you, you're still suggesting I bring you to final 3 with Norwee or something, and kill Tamora.

[Vulture]

I die we lose the game
Vulture dies I die overnight

Scum team Vulture/Fenny.

Nope, you're not suggesting the world where I nightkill you if StD (my theoretical partner) is bussed today, if you're so good at obvtowning. Why not?

[Vulture]

Also, regarding the accidental hammer:

1) You pushed Dorsey on some pretty bad reasons.
2) You hammered; I'm asserting that you knew about it and tried to play it off.

Not really a bad reason, honestly, to call someone scum.

[Vulture]

Also I have been asking Tamara for her vote whereas you've been pressuring her into voting with you saying that the game is lost when she's literally explicitly said she wasn't decided like lol one comes from a town mindset while the other very clearly doesn't. Psychological tricks and pressure are scum tools.

...yes, you were desperate to get her to vote so I would die. You were pocketing her beforehand talking about the psychology of how a PR and VT would think, lmao.

You're accusing me of doing the same thing you did.

[Vulture]

ope, you're not suggesting the world where I nightkill you if StD (my theoretical partner) is bussed today, if you're so good at obvtowning. Why not?

Its pretty clear what the quote is saying. Dont pretend you dont get it...

Nope, you don't get it:

Why are you assuming that I wouldn't nightkill you for some reason if StD dies in the day, if I'm teamed with StD? Where is that mentality, or worry?

[Vulture]

tw: emetophobia, etc etc

Spoiler:

Well, now I'm throwing up, so I'm gonna step away from this game. GL to all who read, vote whatever, do whatever, etc etc.

[Vulture]

Jazz hands, prod dodging.

[Vulture]

Easier with retrospect to go back over things, reviewing Norwee now.

Looking over it now:

- The jump that Norwee makes opening the day thinking I'm town and siding with me more to then going back and picking at my thoughts and posts is gross. Like, there's not a real... progression? I guess the progression is supposed to be 'I think Noraa sounds very towny' but clearly he saw something he liked in my starting posts, and posts before, and then suddenly he has a new perspective which is like "I hate this, and I hate that, and you had a plan this is gross." But I don't know why he didn't have these thoughts before, I guess? Like if you dislike someone with that much vitriol you should notice before and not after.

- I think their interaction is pretty bare looking over it. Noraa isn't really trying to get Norwee's thoughts on anything that matters, because she's asking him "what would you be doing here if you were scum?" Which... sure, you can meta that question and go back and review his games, but 1) I don't think Noraa would do that, frankly and 2) she's not actually asking him about his thoughts on the game we are playing -now-, or his actions, or why he did this or that. It's a pretty fluffy exchange that doesn't actually implicate any of Norwee's actions but it makes it look like they're trying to do something.

- And then he tries to rush the day to end, I guess assuming that TA hammers me over Noraa given past posts? Idk. This is a dumb point but hey ~whatever I've got~.

Spoiler:

I'm not gonna vote, but i do lean more on the side of Vulture being town here than Noraa.

I could probably get a TR from norwee more easily by SRing him.

Why?

I'm not gonna vote, but i do lean more on the side of Vulture being town here than Noraa.

I feel the same strategically but disagree with the conclusion.

I'd like to hear STD chime in.

You’re gonna have to explain what that means champ.

I already said i'm not voting yet.

Norwee, lets say your holding a red role pm, what would you be doing right now?

Umm.
Idk, that depends on some other factors. Such as who i would be scum with.
But if we're talking standard procedure then i just try to find some good miselim option and push there.

Behavior and vibe wise what do you do

How would i know that? And why do you need to know?

ok lets say its elo and theres a townie who's been waffley on you slot. You could get their vote or you could make them a mislim. What do you do and why?

Again, i think the context matters.
But i guess i'm a bit more pockety as scum so try to get them on my side maybe.

I mean i'm not a frigging genius when it comes to playing as scum, most of the time i'd be happy with myself if i could do just the basics without being seen straight through.
Anyway what was the point in that? Did it help you read me somehow?

Fuck, i’m doubting myself so much now.

STD why did you vote.

Noraa what do you think i should do here.

Idk, i feel like Noraa sounds really townie in these last pages.

STD voting and unvoting is also really strange and i kinda feel like town wouldn't do that? Cus i don't see the point.

So if TA wants to bank on STD/Vulture i might be fine with that i think.

I feel like i wanna vote Vulture because there isn't much point in waiting anymore. If i do and there is no hammer then that should at least confirm that scum cannot be TA and from my POV it has to be Vulture/STD. (and possibly Noraa/me from TA's POV.)

VOTE: Vulture

TA?

If TA was scum with Noraa i’m going to cry.

Why wouldn't I just bus. Zzz.

Whoever's the town btwn Norwee and Tamora, nice throw.

Don't like this Lamist.

Like clearly everyone here wanted/was amicable to kill StD. Why do I go against the grain and force something infinitely harder for myself. Please, tell me.

p-edit: ...I mean, Norwee thought I was townie and aligned with my thoughts, yes? I can go back and quote the posts where he did that. Pocketing is kind of the thing I 'do' as scum. Why wouldn't I try to convince Norwee instead of doing this, exactly?

I mean the answer is pretty obvious? Sure it would be better for you to argue for killing STD, but that assumes he isn't on your team. Which is literally what Noraa has been saying.

Also, regarding the accidental hammer:

1) You pushed Dorsey on some pretty bad reasons.
2) You hammered; I'm asserting that you knew about it and tried to play it off.

Not really a bad reason, honestly, to call someone scum.

Not a bad reason, no.
Which explains why they were the likely designated mislim for today.

Vulture voted Noraa pretty early into the day, which i don't like for several reasons:

- It shows that they already had an plan in motion.
- There was very little assessing done before placing their vote, which i don't feel like is a town mindset to have for ElO.

Not to rush you, but this game does have a deadline.

[Vulture]

STD and Vulture make the most sense.

Noraa feels tonally town.
EE is probably town but if he's not we've imploded too far to catch him.

Can you explain why you think it's STD/Vulture?

If ur town, it is STD/Vulture. I'm assuming Tamara is town here because I've believed and had a straight up and very strong obvtown VT read on them since the beginning of time. I think I wavered on it for a hot sec yesterday but I'm still pretty sure that if there is only one read I have that is and has been right, it's this one.

Since all the prs are dead I might as well just say what my thoughts on the game were regarding the setup. VT more likely to be more out there and not give too shits about seeming obvtown. Prs more likely to feel more reserved and scummy. Scum in this game I would think wouldn't play like VT which is why my TR on Tamara is very strong. Playing like VT is just a pure game that is hard to replicate as scum who know what's going on and is rarely the case. Now that I think I know who Tamara is, I'm not as sure but I still am willing to bet on it. If we lose the game because of this, I'll feel shit but my heart is telling me this is right and my brain seems to agree.

Like basically I think scum could be playing a pr game. Like sounds like a pr but I dont think scum ever sounds like VT unless it's like their personality which I don't believe it is Tamara's personality especially in a plist like this one.

Also in retrospect this post is even worse; I was thinking it was STD/Noraa with Noraa distancing from Dragons, but now I'm reading it as something that's solely for pocketing TA.

I've griped about it before but I still think it's fucking insane that the very reasons that are being used to 'clear' TA here based on her play or what have you are the ones that Noraa associated with redtea to the point of casing them earlier in the game. Like, Noraa admits to having these setup thoughts, admits to thinking that PRs would act a certain way... and then pushes someone, who was in fact the PR, with a case that accuses them of being floaty and scummy. Like, what? And then it's used /here/ to call TA town instead without recognizing the dissonance of before.

[Vulture]

Vulture, how do you feel emotionally?

Best word's probably 'meh'. I'll be annoyed if it's a loss but it's one of those where I've tried my best to lay out my thoughts and I'll have caught scum, loss won't be on me which makes me feel better about it.

[Vulture]

I have read up?

[Vulture]

VOTE: NorwegianBoyEE

[Vulture]

I feel like I should say something but I don’t have a lot to say.

Dragons didn’t hammer me so Dragons town.

[Vulture]

Noraa and I could have killed someone together instead of bussing. That’s dumb.

[Vulture]

Easier with retrospect to go back over things, reviewing Norwee now.

Looking over it now:

- The jump that Norwee makes opening the day thinking I'm town and siding with me more to then going back and picking at my thoughts and posts is gross. Like, there's not a real... progression? I guess the progression is supposed to be 'I think Noraa sounds very towny' but clearly he saw something he liked in my starting posts, and posts before, and then suddenly he has a new perspective which is like "I hate this, and I hate that, and you had a plan this is gross." But I don't know why he didn't have these thoughts before, I guess? Like if you dislike someone with that much vitriol you should notice before and not after.

- I think their interaction is pretty bare looking over it. Noraa isn't really trying to get Norwee's thoughts on anything that matters, because she's asking him "what would you be doing here if you were scum?" Which... sure, you can meta that question and go back and review his games, but 1) I don't think Noraa would do that, frankly and 2) she's not actually asking him about his thoughts on the game we are playing -now-, or his actions, or why he did this or that. It's a pretty fluffy exchange that doesn't actually implicate any of Norwee's actions but it makes it look like they're trying to do something.

- And then he tries to rush the day to end, I guess assuming that TA hammers me over Noraa given past posts? Idk. This is a dumb point but hey ~whatever I've got~.

Spoiler:

I'm not gonna vote, but i do lean more on the side of Vulture being town here than Noraa.

I could probably get a TR from norwee more easily by SRing him.

Why?

I'm not gonna vote, but i do lean more on the side of Vulture being town here than Noraa.

I feel the same strategically but disagree with the conclusion.

I'd like to hear STD chime in.

You’re gonna have to explain what that means champ.

I already said i'm not voting yet.

Norwee, lets say your holding a red role pm, what would you be doing right now?

Umm.
Idk, that depends on some other factors. Such as who i would be scum with.
But if we're talking standard procedure then i just try to find some good miselim option and push there.

Behavior and vibe wise what do you do

How would i know that? And why do you need to know?

ok lets say its elo and theres a townie who's been waffley on you slot. You could get their vote or you could make them a mislim. What do you do and why?

Again, i think the context matters.
But i guess i'm a bit more pockety as scum so try to get them on my side maybe.

I mean i'm not a frigging genius when it comes to playing as scum, most of the time i'd be happy with myself if i could do just the basics without being seen straight through.
Anyway what was the point in that? Did it help you read me somehow?

Fuck, i’m doubting myself so much now.

STD why did you vote.

Noraa what do you think i should do here.

Idk, i feel like Noraa sounds really townie in these last pages.

STD voting and unvoting is also really strange and i kinda feel like town wouldn't do that? Cus i don't see the point.

So if TA wants to bank on STD/Vulture i might be fine with that i think.

I feel like i wanna vote Vulture because there isn't much point in waiting anymore. If i do and there is no hammer then that should at least confirm that scum cannot be TA and from my POV it has to be Vulture/STD. (and possibly Noraa/me from TA's POV.)

VOTE: Vulture

TA?

If TA was scum with Noraa i’m going to cry.

Why wouldn't I just bus. Zzz.

Whoever's the town btwn Norwee and Tamora, nice throw.

Don't like this Lamist.

Like clearly everyone here wanted/was amicable to kill StD. Why do I go against the grain and force something infinitely harder for myself. Please, tell me.

p-edit: ...I mean, Norwee thought I was townie and aligned with my thoughts, yes? I can go back and quote the posts where he did that. Pocketing is kind of the thing I 'do' as scum. Why wouldn't I try to convince Norwee instead of doing this, exactly?

I mean the answer is pretty obvious? Sure it would be better for you to argue for killing STD, but that assumes he isn't on your team. Which is literally what Noraa has been saying.

Also, regarding the accidental hammer:

1) You pushed Dorsey on some pretty bad reasons.
2) You hammered; I'm asserting that you knew about it and tried to play it off.

Not really a bad reason, honestly, to call someone scum.

Not a bad reason, no.
Which explains why they were the likely designated mislim for today.

Vulture voted Noraa pretty early into the day, which i don't like for several reasons:

- It shows that they already had an plan in motion.
- There was very little assessing done before placing their vote, which i don't feel like is a town mindset to have for ElO.

Not to rush you, but this game does have a deadline.

This was just a page ago but here’s my thoughts on Norwee’s play.

It’s also like, pretty obvious that it wasn’t “kill both Noraa and Vulture” but “Protect and call Noraa townie and kill Vulture” which says about all it needs to.

[Vulture]

@Dragons if you need anything else from me or what have you I’ll be around at some point but I’ve said what I think so yeah.

[Vulture]

It’s also like, pretty obvious that it wasn’t “kill both Noraa and Vulture” but “Protect and call Noraa townie and kill Vulture” which says about all it needs to.

It makes little sense for me to play the way i have if i was scum here.
You're telling me that i as scum chose to hard defend my buddy when it would have been an free win to just busskill Noraa at that point?

...this makes no sense and we both know it.

Yes you tried to defend Noraa and kill me for a win yesterday.

You’re accusing me of hardbussing my buddy when it would have been a free win to just kill someone yesterday?

[Vulture]

You have no rebuttal to my points about you and Noraa’s interaction and my analysis speaks for itself, back to work.

[Vulture]

I’m a townie birdie this game.

In all reality, Noraa and I together would have just brute forced a win yesterday rather than going the long route. Also our interactions are pretty uh... not teamed IMO, especially the questioning pre-redtea.

[Vulture]

What part of that means my mind is made up, and not me thinking about the game during night phase?

[Vulture]

That feels arbitrary to me but eh.

My suspicions on Noraa were rising when they were making the weird Vulture/redtea dichotomy off of interactions that didn’t even exist so that’s why that conversation was a thing.

[Vulture]

Back to work.

[Vulture]

Bloop.

[Vulture]

Let me know if you need anything otherwise I’m just Here.

[Vulture]

Yeah, I thought it wasn’t Norwee and was you until the moment that you didn’t kill me, lmao.

[Vulture]

Little miffed you don’t find me ~townier~ though. >_> Feels like I only get called that based off of emotions.

[Vulture]

Norwee you should know the “back to work” comments are me saying I am going back to work.

[Vulture]

I still had some slight doubts it could be STD and we were just fooling around. But no, well played Vulture.
Your scum game has gotten pretty good.

After all, Noraa didn’t look too good with the hammer back in day 1, and with their ensuing play to distance from Vulture.
Like, you’ve really outdone yourself as scum this time Ydrasse.

Also these posts still make me giggle.

[Vulture]

My little tinfoil/pet theory is that my actions/behavior/etc is referred to as Vulture but when I’m referred to as Ydrasse as the scum boogeyman here to sweep.

[Vulture]

Noraa and I probably could fake all of this for me to bus them but that would such an incredible waste of time if we’re that good of scum players and can just miselim someone for a win.

[Vulture]

Also I think I’d feel bad rubbing it in here because of how Dragons talked about being in a slump/low on spoons.

[Vulture]

I already made it clear I thought it was Noraa/STD and was willing to send the game on that because Noraa was a lot harder to kill.

[Vulture]

Like I literally could just vote STD at -any time- and not lock myself into a bussing plan because TA wanted Dragons dead and so did you do like, if you’re town here I literally would just need one of you two to agree and then it’s good. That’s so much easier and viable than wasting my time today.

[Vulture]

FWIW I ~feel strongly~ it’s Noraa and STD and given that one of those is a radically harder elim than the other, I tried to force it today so tomorrow could be an easy day of voting out STD.

[Vulture]

I already made it clear I thought it was Noraa/STD and was willing to send the game on that because Noraa was a lot harder to kill.

Which betrays your plan, because why would town want to go for the harder lim in ElO if you truly believed it could be STD as well as Noraa.

Because I’d rather just send it then than lose in 3-ELO if I have to 1v1 Noraa there, and I felt confident enough that it was Noraa to do so.

[Vulture]

Like me bussing Noraa is me jumping through hoops... or I could just kill the person everyone suspects and sell it as “oh Dragons is just getting bussed here” and then let Noraa pocket people and then there you go scum wins and we don’t have to do convoluted theatre we hope people believe for no reason.

[Vulture]

I was town!!! Yay.

[Vulture]

Norwee, was the plan to pocket me until I voted Noraa?

[Vulture]

Also sorry if that was stressful Dragons. >_< To be suspected and then suddenly choosing.

[Vulture]

I hope the next one thin will go easy on you. <3

[Vulture]

I think bussing was probably move when I forced it, yeah.

[Vulture]

*the move.

[Vulture]

I think I had actually made up my mind to vote Noraa in nightphase but was worried me instavoting -would- look very scummy so it might’ve worked.

The twilight was just so weird.

[Vulture]

You played well honestly, I only thought you were scum because of you voting with Noraa, your play looked solid otherwise!

[Vulture]

Zzz waiting on flips zzz.