Mini 2251: Triplicate! GAME OVER!

[mastina]

Your argument is that I’m scum if I don’t auto scumread a slot for actually what bonkers insane batshit fucking reasons?

By mechanical POE, yes?

Questions:

Do you think Almost50 is scum in any game?

If the answer to this is 'no', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

Do you think CheekyTeeky is scum in any game?

If the answer to this is 'no', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

Do you think Lady Chloe is scum in any game?

If the answer to this is 'no', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

Do you think RCEnigma is scum in game #2?

If the answer to this is 'no', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

So if you answered 'no' to the above, then the list of possible scum to you would be limited to:
{

mastina

, Radical Rat, Dwlee99, Dunnstral, House, T3}.
It's not me so that leaves 5 names for 3 scum in both games 1 and 2.

Dwlee99 is confscum from game #2.

Do you think Dwlee is telling the truth about being town in game #1?

If the answer to this is 'yes', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

That'd leave 3 scum in {Radical Rat, Dunnstral, House, T3} in game #1 to you. 3/4 as scum.

It'd leave 2 scum in {Radical Rat, Dunnstral, House, T3} in game #2 to you.
Per CheekyTeeky's result, Radical Rat should be confscum to you, with a very high chance of T3 being scum there as well.

Do you think Radical Rat is scum in all three games?

If the answer to this is 'no', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

And if you answered 'no' to all but the Dwlee question which you answered 'yes' to, guess what?

That would leave the game #1 scumteam as {Dunnstral, House, T3} to you.

So tell me: what's batshit insane about this?

Where is this not correct?

Because it's pretty fucking solid logic.

Pagetopping this.

[Amy Dunne]

Your basing your reads on what you’re considering PoE but that’s also based on a lot of so far unproven assumptions. Fmpov, I don’t know what you are, I only know with 100% certainty what I am. Yes I have reads but I only have certainty on myself and I’m not sure if you’re doing this intentionally or unintentionally but you are expecting me to have the same degree of certainty on others as myself and that’s ridiculous.

If you’re asking about my reads then fine but your framing it as if I should confidently know anyone’s alignment but my own and I obviously can’t possibly know that because I’m town.

[mastina]

Your basing your reads on what you’re considering PoE but that’s also based on a lot of so far unproven assumptions. Fmpov, I only know with 100% certainty what I am. Yes I have reads but I only have certainty on myself and I’m not sure if you’re doing this intentionally or unintentionally but you are expecting me to have the same degree of certainty on others as myself and that’s ridiculous.

If you’re asking about my reads then fine but your framing it as if I should confidently know anyone’s alignment but my own and I obviously can’t possibly know that because I’m town.

You don't need certainty--just the existence of the reads is enough.

So again:
Do you think Almost50 is scum in any game? You have a read on him, yes?

Do you think CheekyTeeky is scum in any game? You have a read on her, yes?

Do you think Lady Chloe is scum in any game? You have a read on Taly, yes?

Do you think RCEnigma is scum in game #2? You have a read on him, yes?

Do you think that Dwlee is scum in game #1? You have a read on them in that game, yes?

Do you think that Radical Rat is scum in all three games? You have a read on him, yes?

The reads need not be certain. Just existing. In order to use the POE.

The reads need not be proven to be true 100% to still be used.

The assumptions might be unproven, but the assumptions are still based off of reads that, unless you disagree with the reads, should still hold true.

If you do not think any of {Almost50, CheekyTeeky, Lady Chloe, RCEnigma} are scum by your reads, you have an incredibly limited pool for who the possible scum are, limited even further by the revealed information in both games.
If you do not think Dwlee is scum in game #1, that limits the pool for who is possible scum there even further.
If you do not think that Radical Rat is scum in all three games, that limits the pool for who is possible scum even

further

.
And with the CheekyTeeky result being fairly damning for RR (and probably T3 as well), that gives even more narrowing of the scum pool.

[mastina]

(btw side-note, unrelated to current conversation: while Dwlee has "meta bad", if T3 doesn't realize that this is my towngame and I'm not lying about my 3p status, it's a scumclaim from him since he uses meta heavily and should be able to tell that this is basically my towngame in all three games.

Dunnstral has played with me before and also should know that this is my towngame. Not to the same extent as T3 because Dunnstral can on occasion be more like Dumbstral (sorry can't resist the pun, hope you don't take too much offense, Dunn) and be a dummy and not take past experience into account when reading me, but he still HAS extensive history with me, enough to have a good grasp on my towngame so

should

know that this is it.

House hasn't seen my scumgame unlike T3 and Dunnstral who have, so he might not know what I'm capable of as scum, but he should still have a decent idea because I've described my scumgame to him in multiple games where I was town--being town in those games, he should then know that my description of my scumgames in said games was honest and thus he should know that this not only looks like my prior towngames with him, but also that this is not anything remotely matching my description of my scumgame.

If any of them argue that I am groupscum, it's a scumclaim from them. Dwlee shouldn't argue I'm scum in game 1 but 'meta bad' means that they aren't as scumclaiming as House/T3/Dunnstral would be if they did; RR lacks the experience with me to know my towngame/scumgame intimately so he could argue it and not be scumclaiming.

But T3 not saying I'm town would 100% be a scumclaim; Dunnstral not saying I'm town would indicate him being scum; House saying I'm groupscum would be a scum indicator for him.)

[Radical Rat]

Mastina, I respect you as a player and it is for that precise reason that I scumread you.

Your "alibi" from N1 isn't an alibi. You yourself even acknowledge some of the many ways it fails to function as one in the very post where you claimed it. So, regardless of whatever meta you may or may not have going on here, surely you can understand that it's a bit of a bad look that you keep bringing it up and insisting it confirms you.

Further, while I do believe House/Dunnstral are likely scum (in games 1 and 2 respectively), this proclamation that they aren't allowed to scumread you because of your meta is complete nonsense in this setup. We know you're functionally Town in Game 2. That gives you an opportunity to play to your Town meta, genuinely even, while still potentially being Scum in Game 1. And that doesn't just apply to you, no one can be """confirmed""" through meta reads as long as multiple games are ongoing.

While I don't have as much experience with you as many of the others do, I believe you're smart enough to have already known all of that. As such, the only logical explanation is that you're feigning ignorance (or rather obstinance) so that you can use exactly these arguments to defend yourself, and hope if you repeat it loudly enough people give up.

If you have some extra hidden secret that makes your "alibi" actually an alibi, or you have a good reason why you couldn't be playing to your Town meta despite having a Town-adjacent role in Game 2, then I'll hear you out. Failing that, there's not much point in engaging with you for Game 1.


Regarding Game 2, I haven't properly reviewed your analysis because I'm tired and don't feel like doing math right now, but it sounds like you're saying Amy and Dunn are mechanically confirmed scum if I'm Town? Assuming that both my interpretation and your numbers are accurate, I'll volunteer to be eliminated after Dwlee if our alignments are still in question, because that should be a full game solve, which is well worth one mislim.

[CheekyTeeky]

Mastina can you please point to your townslip and claim your full 3p role in G2?

[T3]

(btw side-note, unrelated to current conversation: while Dwlee has "meta bad", if T3 doesn't realize that this is my towngame and I'm not lying about my 3p status, it's a scumclaim from him since he uses meta heavily and should be able to tell that this is basically my towngame in all three games.

Dunnstral has played with me before and also should know that this is my towngame. Not to the same extent as T3 because Dunnstral can on occasion be more like Dumbstral (sorry can't resist the pun, hope you don't take too much offense, Dunn) and be a dummy and not take past experience into account when reading me, but he still HAS extensive history with me, enough to have a good grasp on my towngame so

should

know that this is it.

House hasn't seen my scumgame unlike T3 and Dunnstral who have, so he might not know what I'm capable of as scum, but he should still have a decent idea because I've described my scumgame to him in multiple games where I was town--being town in those games, he should then know that my description of my scumgames in said games was honest and thus he should know that this not only looks like my prior towngames with him, but also that this is not anything remotely matching my description of my scumgame.

If any of them argue that I am groupscum, it's a scumclaim from them. Dwlee shouldn't argue I'm scum in game 1 but 'meta bad' means that they aren't as scumclaiming as House/T3/Dunnstral would be if they did; RR lacks the experience with me to know my towngame/scumgame intimately so he could argue it and not be scumclaiming.

But T3 not saying I'm town would 100% be a scumclaim; Dunnstral not saying I'm town would indicate him being scum; House saying I'm groupscum would be a scum indicator for him.)

I think you’re town.5

[T3]

vla until the 13th

[Dwlee99]

Mastina's post is wrong because it's gambler's fallacy

[Jingle]

Seeking a replacement for A50.

[Radical Rat]

And here I was thinking we might get through the whole game with no replacements...

[T3]

*wait*
Does the voting analyzer thing apply to game 1 as well?

[House]

*pops in*
mastina is groupscum
*pops out*

[Radical Rat]

*wait*
Does the voting analyzer thing apply to game 1 as well?

No. PR abilities are confined to the game in which the role exists

[Dunnstral]

I don't think mastina is scum in game A, and believe the 3rd party claim in game B. I don't agree with their assertion that I should be lock scumreading certain slots. I would guess that RR is indeed scum in at least one of the games.

[Dunnstral]

I don't think mastina is scum in game A, and believe the 3rd party claim in game B. I don't agree with their assertion that I should be lock scumreading certain slots. I would guess that RR is indeed scum in at least one of the games.

[mastina]

Mastina, I respect you as a player and it is for that precise reason that I scumread you. Your "alibi" from N1 isn't an alibi. You yourself even acknowledge some of the many ways it fails to function as one in the very post where you claimed it. So, regardless of whatever meta you may or may not have going on here, surely you can understand that it's a bit of a bad look that you keep bringing it up and insisting it confirms you.

Because it does.

This is not the first time I have used this alibi.

It'd take me some time to track down the other towngames where I have, but it is in fact something I have done before as town. Because it IS effective as a method of basically clearing me.

Yes

, it's

possible

to have a scumteam so coordinated that the end of day flips do absolutely nothing to prevent them from presubmitting night actions and for them to have precoordinated them--although scumteams are fairly notorious for second-guessing themselves and wanting to change night actions midway through the night. It's definitely

possible

that this didn't happen, that a scumteam that I am on did not need to change anything from presubmitted night actions.

Yes

, it's

possible

to have a scumteam submit night actions missing a member of their team. But while it's

possible

, not contributing to the night's discussion as scum is basically gamethrowing. It's relying on teammates to make the most optimal play possible, without giving input. While my scumgame has deteriorated significantly, one of the few things about current scumastina which is still good is that ability to select intelligent nightkills. I'd need to be sacrificing the one thing that I am still decent at as scum in order to pull the alibi off.

It's

possible

, yes! (Which keeps it from being bannable--it's

possible

to do as scum.)

It's not

probable

.

Which is simpler?
I didn't log in because I had no reason to and actually had more reason not to...?

...Or I didn't log in, in spite of there being ample reason to, even if just to be sure things were going along in their presubmitted way? Where for some reason, I decided to pull a gambit that I've never pulled before as scum to break it being a town-only gambit from me in spite of the gambit going against my very nature as a scum player?

Occam's razor is on my side. The simpler explanation is that I didn't log in because I didn't need to.

But beyond that?

The proof I am not scum comes from the mod:

Technically mastina and house are due prods but it feels super weird to prod someone when all games are in night so this pm is a general reminder the game exists instead.

Prods when all games are in night will not count for overall prod purposes going forward.

Generally, mods are fairly bad at prodding scum players when scum players are posting in the scum PT but not the public thread. I know this from having gotten away with not posting for 92 hours in the main game thread but remaining active in scum PTs in prior games. A prod indicates a lack of site activity.

But more than that? The ultimate proof I am not scum?

I have received messages concerning the legality of mastina's play here, and in order to not have to address the concerns individually, will be making a blanket statement.

It is possible to have a hidden online status while interacting with the board.
I explicitly allow both the presubmission of night actions and the partners of informed minority players to enter submissions on behalf of an absent player to prevent vacations or disasters from being hard clearing.
I am not allowing (nor do I intend to allow in the future) scumteams to discuss the game via discord, as that gives additional functionality past what is intended to be available to a scumteam via a PT. (PTs do not have a ping function.)
I do allow night action submissions to be sent to me via discord, and my discord is publicly available through the ms server.

Who do you think was submitting the concerns about the legality of my alibi? Players who were town, but for whatever reason, decided to not voice their concerns publicly?

...No. The complaints are very very clearly scumplaining, scum complaining about what I am doing.

Further, while I do believe House/Dunnstral are likely scum (in games 1 and 2 respectively)

Okay so if I'm pushing House and Dunnstral, which game am I scum in? Which game am I bussing in? 'Cause that'd be the requirement.

this proclamation that they aren't allowed to scumread you because of your meta is complete nonsense in this setup. We know you're functionally Town in Game 2. That gives you an opportunity to play to your Town meta, genuinely even, while still potentially being Scum in Game 1. And that doesn't just apply to you, no one can be """confirmed""" through meta reads as long as multiple games are ongoing.

Blatantly false and already proven as much already.

A player's meta is

more

important in this game format. Not less. Because it is possible to see things like "town in all" and "scum in all" and "town in 1/3" and "town in 2/3" from meta cues.

If I were scum in a game, it would show in my play--but I have been playing town in

all

the games, and pretty damn transparently so.

or you have a good reason why you couldn't be playing to your Town meta despite having a Town-adjacent role in Game 2,

It's called "look at my scum meta".

Being town in a game does not stop me from still being scum in a game and knowing I am scum in that game and visibly showing that I am scum in that game. scumastina

cannot

gamesolve. scumastina

cannot

get angry. scumastina

cannot

go this far to win a game. scumastina is

not

that motivated. scumastina is more passive--but I've not been solving for just one game or just two games.

I've been solving for

all three

games. And if you want to argue I haven't been solving for all three games, good fucking luck; my iso is filled to the brim with the proof that I've been solving ALL of them. In a way that scumastina is fundamentally incapable of.

Mastina can you please point to your townslip and claim your full 3p role in G2?

BTW I can doubly prove that I am not scum in all 3 games.

The first proof is that I didn't know that this this game had secret alts or readable pts as a Mechanic.

Because my role pm was just three roles, no account info at all.

The second proof?

I am phoneposting at work.

I work 4//7 days.

With a phone that is glitchy.
It literally keeps spazzing out, proof being: this post.

I can't be any scum accounts which posts while I am at work.

Here is a (I corrected the phone-induced errors of the original) hard-'town'slip. (It's not a townslip because I'm not town but I don't have a better term to use. It's like an anti-scumslip in that it's proof that I cannot be scum, but not proof that I am town.)

Basically, I was at work, posting with the game open for the first time, on my phone.

I saw people referencing secret alts and scum/masons, with them being able to post in a PT. (I was additionally under the impression that said PT(s) were public, readable by people not able to post in it.)

I, mistakenly, believed that to be something that applied to all three games.

As in, game #2 and game #1 would

also

have secret alts for the scumteam.

This is, apparently, not actually the case--which I would know if I had drawn scum in either game 1 or game 2.

But I didn't know that the secret alts were a specific mechanic to game #3 because I drew uninformed in all three games.

^^^The townslip, explained.

As for my fullclaim in game #2, I'm

Steve

, aligned with the "Screw This All" faction.
I wandered into the DMV 4 years ago (for a driver license renewal), and have been stuck here ever since. I don't really care about what's happening; I just want out. I'll remain trapped until the mess of the paperwork is sorted, so I just want to survive, but I do want to have affairs in order so I can't win while there's more than two nontown alive.

I have a bulletproof, not really given flavor explanation aside from "what can paper do to you? A papercut?".

The role PM is honestly kinda a mess in being a ramble; it doesn't contain very clear formatting. And this is a bit of a paraphrase since again, don't want to eat a modkill.

[mastina]

(Btw side-note, there's multiple ways to ensure a player cannot use my strategy, both from a site administration side and a game moderator side. And the game moderator side can also ensures that a player cannot flake over the night phase.

Site administration can make Last Visited dates be permanently hidden, removing the option to opt in; this would make it impossible to tell if someone had or hadn't logged in, preventing the strategy.

Site administration could make an executive call and update the rules to specify that while what I did was technically legal, it's not going to be legal anymore, putting in a rule/rule clarification preventing it.

Game moderators can make it a rule to specify that while it may be legal by site standards, in their game they will not tolerate the strategy. Since game mod rules need to be respected, it'd force compliance or face game moderator punishment.

Or even better, and this method also ensures a slot cannot siteflake overnight: a game moderator can require

every

player to respond to the start of night PM, even if they don't have a night action, and if a slot fails to respond by the end of night's deadline, seek replacement for them and extend said deadline once a replacement is found. To prevent the exploit from being publicized via a slot deliberately not logging in, but once deadline hits, coming back and going "I'm here!", said replacement could be final and definitive, no takebacks from having come back.)

[CheekyTeeky]

OK thanks that does line up nicely as 3p in 2 and I think I get the slip.

[Jingle]

Titus has replaced the monkey! Welcome Titus!

[Jingle]

ATTENTION ALL PLAYERS! IRCHER IS NOW DEADED IN ALL ONGOING GAMES AND THUS MAY NOT POST IN THIS THREAD ANYMORE. THAT IS ALL.

Normal

Night Two Begins! All actions are due by: (expired on 2021-12-11 01:00:00)!

Mini Theme

Night Two Begins! All actions are due by: (expired on 2021-12-11 13:00:00)!

Bumping deadline timers.

[Radical Rat]

Presubmission and partner submission of night actions are only some of the ways your alibi fails, and neither are the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that there's a checkbox every time you log in that says "Hide my online status this session" that prevents the most recent login time from updating and doesn't show you as an active user while you're here. There's absolutely nothing stopping you from checking that box, posting in the scum thread, and then unchecking it after the night ends.

I also see no reason why the people who questioned it to Jingle have to be scum. While I am not one of the people who did, because I don't see anything unethical or broken about this type of strategy and it only uses publicly available information, if I DID suspect it might have been breaking rules, I'd probably bring that up privately with the mod as either alignment rather than jumping straight to public accusations of cheating.

If you don't mind, I would like to see an example of you doing this as Town before though, since you say those examples exist. I don't think that means you CAN'T be scum, because if you have something you're known to do as Town, and it can easily be faked, then... You can fake it. But it WOULD mean it's not a valid reason to scumread you on its own.

[Radical Rat]

And then I'm just going to have to hard disagree with you on the meta points. You can do genuine scumhunting in one game, and use that to push mislims in another. The games aren't separate enough to have clearly defined separate meta tells between them, with exception of caught scum who are incentivized to just completely ignore whatever game they got caught in, which would create stark differences.

[Radical Rat]

In any case we have precious little time, and I believe we have a stronger consensus on House?

[Radical Rat]

Also, welcome aboard Titus!

Dwlee scumclaimed in Game 2, but we don't want to mislim them in Game 1, so we need to rush an elimination through in the 12 hours between Game 1's day starting and Game 2's day starting. My proposed eliminations are either House or mastina.