UK Eastermeet 2022 Invitational (Game over!)

[Wenna]

Wenna - that's a lot of general description without anything specific. CES even said he was most interested in how you see me as 'twisting' but you only specify Postie in your response. What is it that puts me at the top of your suspicions?

The first line is answering the first question (RE CES and "alignment-relevant").
The second line answers the second question (RE Fenchurch).
The third line re-answers the second question (RE Fenchurch).
The fourth line is re-considering/re-answering the first question (RE CES).
The fifth line is attempting to say something alignment-relevant about being "cunning" and "twisting" (RE Fenchurch, CES and "alignment-relevant")
The sixth line is answering the third question (RE Postie).

I may have only mentioned Postie by name, but I believe that it is all clearly inferred, and the response turned out to be weighted in line with CES's interest: Fenchurch, CES, Postie. I only said one line about Postie - most of it was about Fenchurch.

This is also sort of what I mean by Fenchurch "twisting". Whilst it is correct that I only mention Postie by name, I said a lot about "twisting", which related directly to Fenchurch/CES's question about Fenchurch. There have been a lot of instances of this sort of thing, and that is why Fenchurch is top of my suspicions.

[Fenchurch]

Okay - apologies, I honestly didn’t realise that. If the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs are about me, can you give some examples from the game? Where did you feel that I’ve presented a different view to what I’ve really felt?

[ChannelDelibird]

Vote Count

Cogito Ergo Sum (1)

: Postie

Nexus (1):

Fenchurch

Porochaz (1):

cpol

Not voting (5):

Cogito Ergo Sum, Nexus, Porochaz, Primate, Wenna

Activity

Primate

has been prodded.

Time until deadline: (expired on 2022-05-16 09:00:00)

[Postie]

Appreciate the catch up, Poro.
Still disagree about the potato stuff, but ehhh I guess I'll avoid arguing about it for now for the sake of not getting us stuck in that discussion again.

Klick is an odd nk as I would have been looking strongly at him today

Explain please?

In terms of my reads, since the Fen/Postie discussion Fen did something that made me go "oh, she is definitely town" and whilst I haven't based my reads completely on that it has influenced things somewhat.

So, what was that? Is there a reason you're not stating it outright?

And yeah I have a huge problem with tunneling when I'm town, which is why I've slightly eased up on cpol while I sort through my thoughts there in light of some town pings. But I also have a problem with going from convinced someone is scum to becoming convinced they're town, and that has fucked me over a few times with scum players, so I'm at like peak paranoia with cpol right now. o_e

Uhh I'll need people to sell me on a massclaim cause I'm not great with Set Up Strategy TM

@CES

-

What are your reads

I can see maybe a single townread in your ISO from the alive players? What are your reads on the people scumreading you? Do you have any scumreads? Give me

something

[Porochaz]

wrt Klick it was the veracity of him looking for a potential potato town vendor initially. Beyond that I feel like that the post:content ratio has been off, it's very surface level, which is somewhat I ironic I guess since he said that about me, I haven't really been able to see what the motive is behind his posts. Then there was the bypassing of Menno's quickexecution, saying the rest of his posts were good. They weren't, Menno even says themselves they weren't good. I didn't think Menno looked down and Klick's defence of them by extension looked extremely scummy.

To be honest wrt Fenchurch I can't remember what ticked me over. I believe looking back it was 182, plus the fact she has been one of the few actively scumhunting outwith potato spec. Looking back there are a few statements that make me want to clarify Fen's stances now since Menno flipped town and as she puts in that post there was a less than 1% chance that Menno would be town. So Fen, how have your reads changed since Menno flipped town?

And to answer Fen's question, I did wonder if it was a potential myeo (Im guessing acronyms have to be changed as well), I have no issue in claiming.

[cpol]

Everyone

- I've just been thinking, in a 13 player game is it most likely that we have a 3-person scum team? In which case, if we wrongly execute today then we lose. Should we massclaim - popcorn from CES?

I think both Postie and I have raised that concern now as well. I can see it being a possibility myself, and at think point my reads are that you two are the most likely to be town, so would advocate playing on the side of caution.

I’m happy with a mass claim. I think we have at least 3 out in the open now anyway. Even if we don’t want to do that, given that we are possibly at a position where we must hit scum, townies with useful information should probably come forward – if there are any left. We’ve lost a few power roles already.

@CES

– what are your thoughts on Primate?

@Primate

– why were you struggling to get in to the game D2? Are you feeling the same way now? Are you up for a mass claim?

VOTE: Unvote

[Primate]

I'm alive.

Are you up for a mass claim

Yep. I actively think we should do it.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

We probably should.

I'll popcorn to Nexus.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

In terms of my reads, I feel like the only thing I'm currently confident of is that cpol is town; he's seemed genuine throughout and some of his stuff would've required some real creativity to come up with as scum.

Postie and Poro I also lean town on for very different reasons - there's a bunch of details in Poro's posts that have made a lot of sense to me (e.g. the observation about not being invested on Day 1 in #388); Postie on the other hand feels a lot more foreign to me but I think her level of flip-flopping is unlikely to come from scum.

Primate and Fenchurch I'm still mostly clueless on. I think the unfortunate thing with Fenchurch is that I know and she knows that she would always find the McMenno quickexecution superscummy, so the response to unquestionably the biggest event of the game just has NULL TELL painted all over it.

Which leaves me with Nexus and Wenna, who have been pretty lurkerish. My initial reaction to being left with them as my top suspects was definitely a sense of having gone amiss somewhere but lurking has basically been a good scum strategy throughout the game? Don't get noticed by consuls; just let the McMennowagon happen? Nexus definitely fits that particular profile.

My main issue with Wenna is that she's mostly been talking in very general terms. The transition from real-life to forum explains some of it but even in real-life I'd expect people to discuss things in terms of concrete things that happened more than Wenna has done. It's easier for scum to talk abstractly than concretely (because concretely you know the alignment of the person posting), e.g. the only posts Wenna has dissected are her own. #397 and #400 also really feel weird to me because both #397's description of Fenchurch as twisting doesn't resonate at all with me in terms of describing Fenchurch's play (I think her play has been pretty straightforward) and then when pushed Wenna basically just accuses Fenchurch of twisting words even though ostensibly that's not Wenna meant by "twisting".

[cpol]

@CES

- That Primate post just before yours leaves you 'mostly clueless' still? Especially when you consider Nexus and Wenna as 'pretty lurkerish' straight afterwards? Am I to assume then that you are happy with their level of posting over the last couple of in game days?

[Nexus]

I mean, I tried to counterwagon the McMenno wagon with you, my dude.

I am the

Whodunnit yarn wall

, VT. Hence my apathy. It's boring being VT in a theme game.

[cpol]

I mean, I tried to counterwagon the McMenno wagon with you, my dude.

Tried to counterwagon with who sorry?

[Nexus]

Popcorn to Fenchurch

pedit: CES

[cpol]

Ahh I see, I read 'with you' as 'alongside you' rather than 'by voting for you'. Carry on.

[Wenna]

I am McMenno Lying Dead in the Corridor for Half an Hour, Vanilla Townie.

The reason I was so absent is because I had a lot of real life going on and am new to online.

I have tried to get into it in the very little spare time I have, but by the time I did, it was all conversation I wasn't really that enamoured with (which I have been vocal about, and tried to shut down/re-steer (or at least joke about).

It's easier for scum to talk abstractly than concretely (because concretely you know the alignment of the person posting)

I do not understand CES's logic here. I speak with hypotheses and in general terms because I do not know anything concretely - not the opposite. As I said, I am a VT - I know nothing (yet I suspect many things, and I have tried to explain them as best I can). There is so much to read and dissect, it is far simpler to summarise. Most thoughts have become overarching ideologies at this point, rather than an ever-growing list of evidence.

When I gave CES some requested evidence, he rebranded it in an attempt to make me not look town:

Can you give any (alignment-relevant) examples of me being cunning? Or Fen twisting words (I assume that's what you mean)?

and then when pushed Wenna basically just accuses Fenchurch of twisting words even though ostensibly that's not Wenna meant by "twisting".

This is why I described CES as cunning, and why I do not see CES as town at all. Everything I said was clear:

By twisting I meant more twisting narrative.

More, but not exclusively.

This is also sort of what I mean by Fenchurch "twisting" ... There have been a lot of instances of this sort of thing, and that is why Fenchurch is top of my suspicions.

I said in my post that "this is also sort of what I meant by" Fenchurch twisting and CES takes this and states that when I was "pushed" I "accuse[d] Fenchurch of twisting words even though ostensibly that's not

meant by 'twisting'."

CES and Fenchurch are my top votes, in that order.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

@CES

- That Primate post just before yours leaves you 'mostly clueless' still? Especially when you consider Nexus and Wenna as 'pretty lurkerish' straight afterwards? Am I to assume then that you are happy with their level of posting over the last couple of in game days?

Sorry if it was unclear, but I don't think the lurking itself is particularly scummy. I think the way Nexus has played the game is pretty consistent with a scum lurker (e.g. I think a scum lurker is more likely to want to avoid the scrutiny of being responsible misexecution). I don't think Primate has played that way; I think he just hasn't posted enough for me to get a real read on him.

I do not understand CES's logic here. I speak with hypotheses and in general terms because I do not know anything concretely - not the opposite. As I said, I am a VT - I know nothing (yet I suspect many things, and I have tried to explain them as best I can). There is so much to read and dissect, it is far simpler to summarise. Most thoughts have become overarching ideologies at this point, rather than an ever-growing list of evidence.

You know concretely what you've read. If you're town, your hypotheses haven't come from thin air, they come from specific things people have posted and e.g. without tying it to anything Fenchurch has actually posted your accusation that's she's been twisting is not something I can understand let alone believe.

Can you give examples of Fenchurch twisting? Preferably the A to B to C type of twisting.

[Fenchurch]

I am

Titus

, the powerful yet doomed gladiator from the murder mystery… I’m a VT. My initial reaction, that I mentioned in my first post, is that this doesn’t seem believable because Titus doesn’t sound like a VT. But then all the VT flips have been slightly wacky stuff so…:shrug:

Popcorn to Primate.

[Wenna]

Can you give examples of Fenchurch twisting? Preferably the A to B to C type of twisting.

This (?)

Thanks Postie for asking that question and Cpol for answering... I didn't realise until now that I had been bothered by the same contradiction.

I felt like the questions lead to answers Fenchurch knew all along, and wanted to draw from the others. By stating half ideas and then asking leading questions. I imagined Fenchurch having more fully formed thoughts and steering people. It was the Postie/Fenchurch in the beginning that triggered this viewpoint.

But then if I imagine Fenchurch saying this IRL, it seems much more ordinary: gives idea, pushes for your idea [repeat].

[Primate]

(I think it's just poro and postie left?)

I'm a Mandarin covered in Sellotape. Vanilla. (I don't actually know what this is a reference to, my best guess would be the late night post restriction mafia game, or possibly when you were talking about playing cricket?)

Poro next.

[Porochaz]

I am Bernhard Piemann, vanilla townie,

Postie next

[Postie]

I am

Baby Izzy, Non-Ambulating Jailkeeper

Basically, I'm a Jailkeeper that can only target within one thingy of my previous target on the list of living players (top and bottom of the list are considered next to each other)

I think even if I just claim my first target, scum can probably work out who my next potential targets are for this night, so I don't really want to claim who I've targeted so far. Though if there's a particularly compelling reason to do so I haven't considered, I could be convinced.
I

can

tell you that I don't believe I stopped a kill on night 1, in case there's any confusion on that considering the flavour with the stink bug card on the night 1 deaths.

[Primate]

That was less useful than I was hoping for.

[Primate]

This does mean candles are a scum mechanic, which is probably good for CES.

[Fenchurch]

Well it confirms that the potato vendor is scum, and in that case, why did they save Cpol? I can't quite make sense of it either way. If Cpol is town, surely they benefit from letting him die? The only reason to save him is if they are intending to claim town potato vendor, which they have not done.

Then again, Cpol is scum, then why give his potato away in the first place? I guess it could have been a gambit whereby he either thought he would get it back and/or that the whole action would reflect more positively.

Overall, it does make me slightly more suspicious of Cpol.

CES

- you said you thought it was reasonable for a scum-potato to save town-Cpol. Can you explain why?

This does mean candles are a scum mechanic, which is probably good for CES.

Hmm, I'd forgotten about the candles. What is the connection to CES?

Is there a chance that they are meant to represent the number of town currently alive?! We started with 10, then 3 went out the first night - which matched 3 deaths. Then 1 went out the second night after there had been 2 deaths. Could it mean that Menno was actually scum?? That is me stretching... I think CDB is unlikely to put fake-reveal stuff like that in a game.

[Fenchurch]

Summary of the claims

Dead:

Bellaphant - TOWN MAYOR ‘the mayor from BOTC’
mykonian - TOWN BLUFFING VIG, ‘cockroach poker player’
Takuma - TOWN BLACKMAILING INVENTORMAKER, ‘trader livinius’
McMenno - TOWN VT 'the karaoke that didn't happen'
Klick - TOWN INVENTOR, ‘making things out of cheese’

Alive:

cpol - VT, Eight people watching one game of hive
CES - Consul-maker, the people who saw us dressed as romans
Wenna - VT, McMenno Lying Dead in the Corridor for Half an Hour
Nexus - VT, The whodunnit yarn wall
Fenchurch - VT, Titus the gladiator
Primate - VT, A mandarin covered in sellotape
Porochaz - VT, Bernhard Piemann
Postie - Non-ambulating Jailkeeper, Baby Izzy

To answer the question about the reinforced mandarin, we made to play catch outside after the barbecue... for about 2 minutes until it rolled into an unreachable space under the decking.

Who is Bernhard Piemann?