Open 857 | Frienemies | Postgame

[Datisi]

I've BEEN saying SS isn't doing anything... Voted me... said he had no confidence I'm a wolf, and left it at that

okay. do you think i should be engaging with that in any way? what do you think town!me does there?

[Datisi]

so I should SR implosion for TRing me for defending penguin?

andante, please at some point learn that saying "you shouldn't townread x for y" DOESN'T MEAN "you should scumread x for y"

[Datisi]

I've BEEN saying SS isn't doing anything... Voted me... said he had no confidence I'm a wolf, and left it at that

okay. do you think i should be engaging with that in any way? what do you think town!me does there?

what's your read on Something_Smart?

scummy, ignoring the elephant in the room.

[Datisi]

im slightly townreading andante's more recent posting, maybe she was just right and i do townread her more when she's here. most of it doesn't really make sense but it feels like she has thoughts that i have no idea where they came from but they make sense to her. and there's something about that almost indignant attitude of "how can you all not see this" that just kinda rings true to me

idk i don't feel like i have anything productive to say rn but im around if anyone wants to talk

implo who do you think is scum if im town? im still pretty much on enchant + one of andante/SS (maybe leaning SS now?) but you townread two of those

i'm not sure why fire posts this as scum while andante is his biggest counterwagon

it's like, i don't think he's started angling towards voting andante, so the only way he can vote her now is by saying "lol better her than me!!" which i feel like scum usually won't let themselves get down to that? especially if he's keeping andante in his poe but the upper half of it? feels counter-intuitive

[Datisi]

maybe the scumteam is enchant/std and that's why nothing makes any sense (98% shitpost)

[Datisi]

because i forgot he existed when i made that post lol

[Datisi]

find another direction

i'm literally arguing fire is town there???

[Datisi]

every datisi's post is possible as a scum post

[Datisi]

i still think andante is more likely to flip red here, but i wish i had the confidence to push it through

i think we should at least give std (and hutmeil >.>) a chance to be proper caught up with the current events

[Datisi]

Hmm I think we're getting nowhere. If we're not going with Andante, I'm fine limming [ss, enchant, fire].

i was hoping for a bit more... i don't know, anything from you here

[Datisi]

get fucked

[Datisi]

okay i had a thought earlier

so the vc is at 2125, with fire wagon decently leading. then ari pops in and there's a page and a half of "actually this fire wagon is Bad, andante is like obviously scum, and also datisi is the most likely partner to scum!andante and etc etc"

and then fire pops in in 2181 like "let me drop a paragraph of analysis on why andante/datisi does not make any sense as a pair", like what. sure, he offered an alternative of enchant/andante, but he kept prioritizing enchant in that pair, AND just giving this analysis does run the risk of ari agreeing with the points against datisi/andante but not buying into other ones

[Datisi]

having fun today reading old games where SS was scum and getting more and more confused why people seem to be underestimating his abilities here

also ^^ this post seems counter-intuitive to make as scum to me, because if you're scum who should get the fuck out of being murdered, then you don't hint towards you doing analysis, you actually do that analysis

if fire is scum here, then he feels Fine being flipped, so either (1) he's scum with andante and the game is completely fucked for them (lol) or (2) his buddy is deep onto that bus and he's fine flipping (would that be like, save the dragons?)

[Datisi]

my overall conclusion is that i can't fit fire's posting into a scum mindset, unless he's scum with very specific and unlikely people

[Datisi]

is it just me, or would it be +ev for town to pick this conversation up tomorrow, after a kill happens?

[Datisi]

and you think it can't be fire right?

i don't think it's fire, no

i think if you read fire and andante reactions to their wagons, andante's much more closely aligns to what scum is likely to be doing than fire's

[Datisi]

i had some sorta townread on him at some point

didn't you also think he's town?

[Datisi]

do you think it's likely he's scum?

[Datisi]

you're making me think back to early d2 where i was having bad feelings about the overall gamestate and i'm not sure i like it

i don't know how to tell. i'm not sure if there is a way to tell without flipping within the poe first.

[Datisi]

it kind of makes sense but also kinda doesn't >.> elaborate?

[Datisi]

i think i would feel more comfortable drawing such a conclusion if ~half of this game wasn't lurky or outright nonpresent

that, coupled with a possibility that scum can be positioned so they have to pick their partner between fire/andante and thus not wanting to do it, makes me feel like we can't just conclude both fire/andante are town because the gamestate

[Datisi]

i think i would feel more comfortable drawing such a conclusion if ~half of this game wasn't lurky or outright nonpresent

that, coupled with a possibility that scum can be positioned so they have to pick their partner between fire/andante and thus not wanting to do it, makes me feel like we can't just conclude both fire/andante are town because the gamestate

[Datisi]

std can you read the last few posts in my iso about fire and andante and give me your opinion please

[Datisi]

okay, the idea is that game stagnant > scum is happy with the possible choices > possible choices are town?

i gave reasons why that line of logic can lead to wrong conclusions, therefore i'm not willing to clear andante on ~gamestate read~

[Datisi]

yes?

but i also want you to like, agree with voting her?

[Datisi]

do you think you can get to that point for anyone today?

[Datisi]

<3

[Datisi]

implo, do you care to convince me why i'm wrong on what i recently said about fire being town?

[Datisi]

implo, do you care to convince me why i'm wrong on what i recently said about fire being town?

[Datisi]

okay i had a thought earlier

so the vc is at 2125, with fire wagon decently leading. then ari pops in and there's a page and a half of "actually this fire wagon is Bad, andante is like obviously scum, and also datisi is the most likely partner to scum!andante and etc etc"

and then fire pops in in 2181 like "let me drop a paragraph of analysis on why andante/datisi does not make any sense as a pair", like what. sure, he offered an alternative of enchant/andante, but he kept prioritizing enchant in that pair, AND just giving this analysis does run the risk of ari agreeing with the points against datisi/andante but not buying into other ones

having fun today reading old games where SS was scum and getting more and more confused why people seem to be underestimating his abilities here

also ^^ this post seems counter-intuitive to make as scum to me, because if you're scum who should get the fuck out of being murdered, then you don't hint towards you doing analysis, you actually do that analysis

if fire is scum here, then he feels Fine being flipped, so either (1) he's scum with andante and the game is completely fucked for them (lol) or (2) his buddy is deep onto that bus and he's fine flipping (would that be like, save the dragons?)

my overall conclusion is that i can't fit fire's posting into a scum mindset, unless he's scum with very specific and unlikely people

i think this stuff is fresh

[Datisi]

if I'm being run up, my first instinct isn't to construct a specific narrative escape route that is as viable as possible, which it seems like that's what you're describing fire-scum should be doing but isn't?

i may or may not be talking out of my ass here, but the reason why i feel fire would be doing that is

(1) from the games i've played with him, his townplay strikes me as a sort of analytical, doing business, moving the game forward, putting in work, etc
(2) for the short time i was playing with scum!fire in invictus, i was not able to tell that he's scum, i.e. tell the difference between town and scum him

so from those two, i'm assuming that fire would be playing scum in a somewhat similar manner that he plays town, and those are the qualities i associate with his townplay. and i imagine that a scum that has those qualities would be attempting to talk their way out of the wagon using facts and logic and by planning an escape route, or at least the max +ev plan for their team

[Datisi]

And I'm still pretty uninterested in thinking about partner dynamics; I think things along the lines of "X can't be scum because no one makes sense as a partner" are probably like =rand to be correct. Maybe he is scum with those unlikely people, or maybe he's been trying to make it look like he's not partners with the people you think he's not with. etc.

it's not necessarily a partner dynamics argument, at least not solely one

it's more like, i feel like scum!fire would have the skills and the ability to do what is max +ev for his team. if we assume he's scum here, then the only way he's doing that is if his only counterwagon is also his partner (and he's trying to turn it over to enchant or s_s), or if his partner is so well positioned that all fire has to do is antispew and wait for his dead thread link

to be fair, maybe there isn't a functional difference between the nature of the two arguments, but meh

[Datisi]

it was really obvious neither fire nor enchant were gonna quickhammer there if you actually thought about it

also reminder that andante has still not attempted to interact with my arguments or try to solve w me in general, despite continuously saying that i'm scum for not trying to solve with her or interact with her or whatever else it was

[Datisi]

I've BEEN saying SS isn't doing anything... Voted me... said he had no confidence I'm a wolf, and left it at that

okay. do you think i should be engaging with that in any way? what do you think town!me does there?

what's your read on Something_Smart?

scummy, ignoring the elephant in the room.

so SS is scummy, but I'm the one you wanna focus on?

wanna compromise here?
VOTE: Something_Smart

yeah, pretty much

i gotta run bc work soon but like, if you don't see how andante's "reads" shift based on whatever is convenient for her to push without any actual reason and with actively not following on the reasons she does provide, then idk lole

[Datisi]

how confident are you that they are shifting in a way that is specific to her being scum?

also that can't have been more than like 4 hours of sleep smh

can't say that i am, because i don't have the experience to say that meta wise because idk specifically what town and scum andante would be doing here

3:30 to 6:30 baybeee

[Datisi]

anything specific you're looking for?

[Datisi]

it felt like in that post you turned on a specific mode of posting that to my memory was mostly distinctive to you as scum

i mean like, if you wanna frame the question as "is datisi trying to be manipulative", the answer is yes, yes i am

look at this from my pov. there's fire, who is consistently posting things i'd expect town!him to post. there's andante, who's consistently posting things that i think very neatly fit into a scum mindset, and what someone of her caliber and playstyle might post as scum.

and then you have the andante wagon that just refuses to actually happen because why?

implo wants to kill my townread. he actually tries to engage with my arguments at least, despite his responses being not at all convincing and what i'd hope for.

then you have std, who isn't here, and when he is here se says stuff like "vibes" to justify wagoning fire and not wagoning andante and is consistently avoiding actually interacting with any of my points.

and THEN you have enchant, who. like. why is andante town? "because she's annoying." why am i scum? "because you're pushing this person i think is town."

i've tried debate. i've tried discussion. i'm not getting anywhere with it, and for the most part people don't even wanna talk. and i'm not gonna let town just sit here and kill someone i townread?

[Datisi]

how confident are you that they are shifting in a way that is specific to her being scum?

this implies you're asking whether i'm making a meta argument for why scum!andante would be acting like this here, and town!andante wouldn't, like i am for you. that's what the word "specific" tells me.

i do not have the meta knowledge of both her town and scum game to provide along my push. i still think she's responding in a way that makes a lot of sense as scum, i think she's a better kill than you, and yes i definitely think she's a better kill than i am. but i don't have a "btw here is meta on why i think this is specifically scum!andante here" component to back me up.

[Datisi]

it doesn't quite track for me

if i need to go back through today and describe my read on both you and andante at various points and how it tracks to my posting, i will

i'm not thrilled about the idea of doing that, but i'll do it

[Datisi]

Datisi talks to me like he knows I'm town

this isn't something you get to throw out and say "idk how to explain it tho but this is definitely happening"

if anyone actually cares, the reason why i'm not too thrilled to deviate from the plan is because my biggest ??? reads-wise is currently s_s, and the info from the flip and nightkill is probably going to solve him better than anything we can do today.

[Datisi]

there's no freaking way he has the progression on me he's had as town

you keep repeating this

every time i ask "ok, what about my progression on you is bad? what do you imagine town!tisi would be doing here", you ignore it, then return a day later to once again say "no way datisi town" like

[Datisi]

he was also saying fire was scum by poe and voting for fire atp

i was never voting fire

Cause his fire push wasn't going anywhere, so thus, next best.

????????????????????????????????????????

i was never pushing fire

and this is implying that scum!me had some urgency in actually pushing through someone, when (especially a that time of the game) literally everyone was townreading me so ???

[Datisi]

he was also saying fire was scum by poe and voting for fire atp

i was never voting fire

Cause his fire push wasn't going anywhere, so thus, next best.

????????????????????????????????????????

i was never pushing fire

and this is implying that scum!me had some urgency in actually pushing through someone, when (especially a that time of the game) literally everyone was townreading me so ???

[Datisi]

i vaguely recall getting to a townread of 6 people out of 8 and he was not in the 6

so i think scum by poe is a valid description there

[Datisi]

well you could have said that when you first asked

mostly i have noticed that she turns into "yeah fire is scum!!" when it seems like people are talking about you or starts pushing me when talk goes in that direction (mostly by enchant i think)

i'm working off memory and i can go back and try to make a more coherent post about it if you want, but it's gonna be an hour or two before i can do that

[Datisi]

why did you bring up saving me as a reason? do you think that it was likely at the time that you posted 2592 that the elim would move off andante and onto me if you didn't start pushing harder for andante? what posts from others gave you that feeling?

i didn't think it's terribly likely to happen, no. the most likely scenario at that point is andante gets killed.

but there is a non-zero chance where people go "yeah andante is posting things so i guess i don't wanna kill her now, let's go fire" or "actually let's kill datisi because all the arguments about him being scum are very good and definitely not bullshit"

so i don't see a reason why i should be ~slightly nudging~ people in the right direction, especially as there has not been any productivity in some time

[Datisi]

don't see a reason why i shouldn't be*

i am still half asleep pls excuse me

[Datisi]

It kind of feels like he's the only one who tangibly has an agenda, in general.

why is this supposed to be scummy? is it supposed to be scummy?

[Datisi]

it means i'm trying to actually give a shit about this game

you're welcome

[Datisi]

2080 - andante jumps onto fire, who is currently the only wagon with two votes
2185 - still very certain fire is scum here, when ari starts looking her way

2377 - after vote jumping around s_s and hutmeil (and calling me/s_s scum, then having hutmeil her "legacy scumread" in 2336) she goes back to fire. note the vc in 2375. the vote change is not explained at all.

around this time, she's also doing consistent shade at me when enchant wants to vote me. not that her scumread of me makes NO SENSE. "datisi is talking to me like he knows i'm town", can't point to where that is happening. "datisi doesn't wanna interact with me and find scum", ignores every single attempt i make to reach out to her. "datisi realized his push on me is dying so he's pushing fire" when i am arguing why fire is town.

and whenever you actually criticize her, she deflects it with "I AM TRYING!! CAN'T YOU SEE I'M TRYING MY BEST HERE!! I JUST DON'T KNOW!!" like.

and she's also trying to get me to vote s_s.

back to fire in 2566 once he's the only viable counterwagon to her. claims to scumread him. a page later, when enchant mentions that maybe she/fire are both town, she's back to me (2586).

---

i guess this point is very difficult to separate from "andante isn't really solving and is just ate'ing" because the two are very intertwined.

today, who have her scumreads been? datisi, s_s, fire, and hutmeil.

- she votes s_s only when she tries to get me to vote s_s too.
- she votes fire whenever he is a good chance for a counterwagon against her.
- when it seems like she's going to die, she makes a show of leaving a legacy scumread in hutmeil, that she gives up on two pages later in favour of the fire counterwagon against her own.
- and finally, she's on me because people are wavering on fire and enchant supports her.

like, her votes today have all been either working as AtE, or they're working to save her own ass. i know town!andante jumps between votes or whatnot, but the fact that her votes are consistently opportunistic (best seen in the times she chooses to vote fire) and the fact that she is literally incapable of explaining things about her votes that she keeps claiming (all of the shit she flings against me) makes me think that the vote jumps (and opinion jumps, really) are deliberate.

[Datisi]

I do want to hear what Datisi's new leading theory is now that Andante has flipped town.

i do not have a new leading theory currently as i have spend approximately 0 time thinking about this game overnight

i will be going over my thoughts on all the slots and the overall gamestate later tonight as i have some free time. there are also a few things i wanna see play out by themselves today before i start doing certain things, stay tuned.

yesterday, you said you want to go over my progression on something which i don't think you did, could you do that if you're not planning to already?

how can the thoughts "datisi is so towny we have to yeet him if he's still alive" and "datisi has very good scum equity, actually" exist at the same time in your mind?

also, where are you getting your ideas about my scumgame? unless i'm misremembering, you've only played with scum!me once, in jk9++, where i had a mediocre day 1 and was basically doing fuckall from day 2 onwards.

[Datisi]

He kind of went very smoothly from "i have no idea about Penguin" to voting Penguin but saying there's other people he'd be willing to vote, to saying he wanted Penguin's blood.

it's almost as if
my scumread on him was increasing
as he was continuously avoiding the thread

i mean i feel like it's obvious i wouldn't play like i did if i were scum with penguin, but this just feels like another "datisi is scum because he is too town" argument

[Datisi]

This is a mischaracterization; like I mentioned the first thought was an early thought. Essentially a "Datisi seems town right now, and I expect him to be dead by the late game if he's town." I guess the most relevant nk here is n2, because it makes sense for you to not die last night with thread sentiment turning somewhat against you and n1 VP was townier than you. And maybe scum just had some strong read that Gamma was mason (but apparently not on his partners). But that was the thought.

well okay, but. if you think it makes sense for me, as either alignment, to not get nightkilled on n3, then kicking in the argument of "datisi is too townie and hasn't been nightkilled yet so is scum" NOW seems arbitrary and kinda... wrong?

I also don't really understand how these two thoughts, as you've written them out here, are at odds; someone can think "x is so towny that we need to yeet them if they live to late game" and then in late game think "x has good scum equity, because they've lived this long despite being so broadly townread". Especially when x has such a notoriously good scumgame.

likewise, is that the only reason why you're calling me scum currently? because from the "based on the trajectory of the game" part of 2665 i got the feeling that there was more to it than just "he not ded"

this is why i feel like you're arguing two things that can't coexist at the same time. is my one and only sin this game that i have been way too townie? if so, why are you bringing up how an ari kill would make sense from me and how i bussed penguin and how everyone else is doing ubertownie things and i'm not and etc etc etc. has the climate of the thread changed in so i'm no longer so townread and it makes sense i'm not dead? then why are you bringing up the "datisi too townie" point?

I'm getting the idea that your scumgame is good from the MU tournament thingie, primarily; I don't think I've expressed other specific ideas that I have about your scumgame in particular recently.

i mean, sure, it's good. but it's not this good. i don't have the stamina for this and i've done so much analysis when it's usually much more easy for me to pick a person and push there and flood the thread with shouty nonsense.

again, how familiar with my game are you? because you are claiming that nothing i'm doing here would be "impossible to fake".

[Datisi]

Why is it obvious you wouldn't play like you did if you were scum with penguin?

pushing other people to give information about the yeet leaves me open to scrutiny for looking for other wagons and is beneficial only via wifom of "scumtisi wouldn't do this" which i do not rely on as scum because town is stupid and you can't count on them to come up with such arguments

entering the day with "there was a bus ackchually" is not the idea i wanna start planting in people's heads after bussing

i'm also not gonna so easily drop it if i do decide to take that angle because murdering on wagon then off wagon is overall easier than the other way around

if i'm gonna bus, i'm gonna come up with better arguments than "lol ye lurking is scummy" or however else i said it on d1 because if you wanna bus, you have to appear like you have Great Reasons why the person is scum, rather than jumping on as an afterthought

if i did decide to do whatever the fuck i did do on d1, then i would've used the info i got from my ~pushing for info~ to both appear to have a cleaner trajectory on the game, and to remind everyone that yes i indeed did do that

like, you can argue "but datisi have big scumrange" and claim i did these things because wifom or because i was planning a month ahead to make this post, but i simply don't play scum like that because then i either have to (1) hope town draws these conclusions themselves or (2) make the arguments myself, and both of those are things that i can't rely on as scum

[Datisi]

here's a hot take

there is exactly one scum within implosion and enchant, but fuck if i know which is which

i'm going for a walk now, later

[Datisi]

okay i lied, i got distracted by things and now it's 1am, i'll start on it in the morning before work

i think 2672 is kind of faulty in thinking s_s would be open to get yeeted if he's a mason and his buddy ari got killed, because whoever counterclaimed him would have to have Very Good relations with both gamma and aristeia, and off the top of my head, it seems unlikely

anyway

@fire, who are you thinking of as a most likely partner to enchant now?

[Datisi]

VOTE: Fire

Nah, just nah.

this is not what i was expecting to happen

[Datisi]

(that was meant as a "hey enchant, can you talk more about your thoughts on the game" post, if that wasn't clear)

[Datisi]

i disagree

[Datisi]

enchant plz

[Datisi]

WHO ELSE IS MAFIA THEN?

well yes, this is something i was hoping you would provide an answer to

and why you want to kill fire as opposed to someone else

don't see how killing fire!town would've been insta-win (or fire!scum, for that matter)

[Datisi]

highkey tempted to townread that ~outburst~ anyway, but

due diligence etc

[Datisi]

i am really annoyed that it seems like implo has decided to not respond at all to my 2674 bc i was really interested in his response to the middle part

what is the point of singling out that you don't understand my thought process / find it murky if your main issue with it is that it's sensible to do as scum? like, do you have a problem with not understanding the thought process or do you want it explained?

he's claiming the things that he's done that are townie are townie because they are low-utility to do as scum, because people would never be giving him credit for them

yes, actually

like for a lot of these, i'm not claiming i'd have done some uber difficult thing to do as scum. pushing off-wagon immediately is easy. sticking to my guns about eliminating on-wagon is easy (either i'm not listened to and the town starts eating each other, or i am listened to and confusion arises as townflips happens and the low-hanging-fruit is alive). making up reasons to scumread a scumbuddy is easy. those things would've helped scum!me. i can, for the most part, tell how town is going to react to certain events, and position accordingly.

also, the "you haven't turned on a dime or done any weird shit" feels odd to have in a post where you spent like 3 paragraphs explaining how you did not understand my vote switches, but

[Datisi]

i still think the scummiest thing ive seen from him is what i brought up in 2598. i don't know if i will ever really get over that post bc i just can't get it out of my head that that's a post scumtisi makes when he's just woke up and slightly fumbles on the emotional tone he's supposed to have

the same point that you said you found in my towngames too, right

[Datisi]

i had a vague urge to write out an ate-y sorta ramble but i don't think it will actually help anything

i'm gonna go pass out and hopefully have the energy for this in the morning

[Datisi]

If you can say "I would't do it as mafia", then you know you won't do something as mafia.
And knowing you would't do it, you can decide to do it. And then point you would't do it as mafia.

i mean, yeah. i *could* do the things i pointed out. i'm just saying why it would be more beneficial to me to do one thing as scum, rather than do the less-optimal version of that and then go "but i wouldn't!!!!"

i still think the scummiest thing ive seen from him is what i brought up in 2598. i don't know if i will ever really get over that post bc i just can't get it out of my head that that's a post scumtisi makes when he's just woke up and slightly fumbles on the emotional tone he's supposed to have

the same point that you said you found in my towngames too, right

lol come on, really?

yes

[Datisi]

here's a take

VOTE: implosion

i have a feeling he has been building a trajectory to get onto voting me. but the way i see it, that trajectory doesn't really make sense. or like, it has things added to it that are vaguely connected but overall they don't make a cohesive complete thought process together. my guess was that he was hoping enchant would carry on wanting to kill me from yesterday. i'd be interested in

literally everyone other than enchant and fire

having a comment on this, though.

also enchant is town. i was expecting him to come in trying to kill me today, and i feel like this reversal of his read of me makes absolutely zero sense to do as scum.

[Datisi]

???

4/7 people are playing the game right now???

[Datisi]

i mean i picked my scumread and asked everyone that has not weighed in on the conversation what they think

[Datisi]

is that not the case with every scumhunting action that's targeting a town player

[Datisi]

while you're here, who do you want to vote today?

[Datisi]

this is damaging to my datisi/ss theory

?

[Datisi]

personally i'd much rather have a dead mason and a dead scum, than misyeet today and go to 5p yeetlo with little info from today and a still possibly dead mason

[Datisi]

idk if ss as your scum partner calls you out like that

i mean, you literally said you think the two of us are scum into the thread

i don't see how you could be surprised at the two people you just called scum interacting with one another and going "wow shit i can't believe that happened"

(yes i know your argument is slightly more profound no i do not care)

[Datisi]

i have a lot of things i wanna say about s_s's strategy here, but none of them are actually alignment-relevant and also i have to go back to work, but

i hate it

[Datisi]

i think the strategy you laid out is mechanically optimal, but the +ev we get from it is not worth it the dayplay info it kills

so just playing like a normal player and trying to solve this the old fashioned way would be much better

[Datisi]

Basic instinct would be to assume the wagon was pure (like what Gamma said before she got NKd).

i have seen so many games be lost after a scumflip on d1 because scum bussed and everyone was like "hurr durr kill low hanging fruit what is bussing" and then lose. my last scumgame, i bussed on day 1 and then murdered the town afterwards because they kept being stupid and killing off-wagon. scum loves bussing.

also if i hear another "datisi did not die so he's scum" i'm gonna kashoot myself

[Datisi]

Hmm, I'm not sure I understand this. Scum is mason-hunting but since Datisi is still alive, he's likely mason?

i'm unlikely to be a mason

therefore scum did not kill me because they are probably trying to kill masons

[Datisi]

But he's still alive now after 6 deaths and I'm very wary of him now.

it's kinda odd you point out 6 deaths when only 3 have been nughtkills

[Datisi]

But he's still alive now after 6 deaths and I'm very wary of him now.

it's kinda odd you point out 6 deaths when only 3 have been nughtkills

By deaths I meant eliminations + night kills.

i was in the middle of responding to 2755, and then approximately ten trillion people all decided they wanted to have a drink at the cafe i work in so lol

my point was, if you're making a "wow, datisi has not been killed yet" argument, then saying there's been 6 deaths is really disingenuous, as you're talking about nightkills and you're implying there's a greater number of them than there really has been

You're saying this happens often? Haha

nope, i used to be the village idiot that always lived to yeetlo. nowdays it's basically 50/50 i die night 1 / i make it to endgame.

Hmmmmm ok, this could be my noobness. But if it's not you then who is it lol.

implo? s_s? whoever else exists in this game? you do know that even if it were me, i'd still have a partner, right?

[Datisi]

i did consider her as a possible mason early d2 due to her defense of gamma but by mid d3 i had p much ruled it out

kinda same, i thought she was pretending to not be a mason when she was like "teehee both scum and both masons are on this wagon that i am not a part of"

i also thought that your question of "hey ari so uh, was that post legit" was a bit ?

but also she came off as not masony from that conversation and the fact that she died anyway and flipped vt maybe points away from fire

i'm thinking whether it's most likely she was killed primarily for mason status or for obvtownness or for reads, but i do not know how to do vca and i don't plan on trying to figure it out

[Datisi]

I'm allowed to feel you were townie early and that you've been less townie lately.

that's not my issue with this, my issue is that you seemed to, at the same time, go for both "too town, shouldn't be alive" and "has decent scum equity, actually"

i don't have a problem with thinking both of these thoughts at different times

but 2665 implies you think both at the same time

[Datisi]

doesn't actually make any attempt to either sort me or change my mind

because it was not supposed to do either of those things

like we had a lengthy debate about it yesterday, we came to a disagreement, i don't think there's gonna be anything useful from redoing it

i think your reasons for finding me scummy for that one post are very bad

i don't think they make you scum

i have said what i wanted to say on the subject matter, and i don't think anyone else cares about that conversation anymore either

[Datisi]

i think at this point you want to convince yourself i'm scum and are looking at everything i'm saying through a scummy mindset

as evident by the added note about the possibility of it coming from town

[Datisi]

fmpov, you're taking a post that was clearly not meant to be sorting or helpful and going "wow, this post is not sorting or helpful!! scummy!!"

i don't think it's fair to say it's trying to look like a won argument, because literally everyone alive is smart enough to go reread our convo to find out what happened, and wouldn't fall for a silly one liner

[Datisi]

at the time, i thought it was fair that you came up with it, but i explained why i feel like you're misapplying it

the fact that you're bringing it up again and giving it weight is what makes it bad

[Datisi]

hence the annoyed response because i was and am not in the mood to debate a point that's just wrong to me

pedit: i mean, you're allowed?

you're wrong and i feel like it's very possible to see why but

nobody is stopping you

[Datisi]

Datisi, what's your opinion on my 2768, both about Enchant (you mentioned you'd found him more town, I'm wondering how much if any paranoia you still have) and that way of viewing the game right now?

as little paranoia as i can have, i guess. if we're in yeetlo, i'm probably gonna look at a few of his scumgames again to check whether that really is out of scumrange, but i'm feeling fine townbinning him for now

as for the viewing the game, it's a nice theory find i guess? but i prefer just playing the game normally for now, as the masons are not out, and even if they were, i'd still expect people to re-evaluate in yeetlo and etc

[Datisi]

it's like slightly dishonest i feel, and my intuition is to see dishonesty and think scum. bc i have a hard time believing that you do think it is "very bad" for me to be giving that reason weight. but maybe thats just your way of saying that it's wrong because it comes to the wrong conclusion. and i feel like the process is still good even if the conclusion is bad. so you responding as if it's all bad feels wrong to me. it feels like if you're town you should be able to see that the process is reasonable. but that could just be your way of responding

i'm having trouble putting my thoughts into words in a way that will be clear, but

that reason comes to the wrong conclusion in this game. i have already explained why i feel like it is not applicable to this game and/or that specific post that you singled out. that is what makes it bad in my opinion.

like, i'm not claiming your process itself isn't reasonable from you. i'm claiming that it's faulty for reasons that are obvious from my pov, and as i know my own feelings and alignment, they are hence wrong. aka bad. like idk if i can put it more clearly and my manager is yelling at me so later

[Datisi]

there are two shifts

i worked afternoon yesterday, ran home, got like 5 hours of sleep, and now i'm working morning

yes it's very fun i love my job

also @implo, fire was paranoiaing me at the time where he wasn't exactly getting utility out if it. nobody else was suspicious of me, and even if he decided ti push me, he'd logically have to push hut first, which like. if he faked it for pocketing me, then lol, but it didn't come at a weird time

while i get the feeling you started sussing me at (1) a time where enchant wanted to kill me, (2) right before we got a townflip that i helped push through (and that you didn't seem overly against)

that, coupled with the fact that i feel like i'm finding inconsistencies within your thought process, makes me think yours is more likely fabricated than fire's

i have no clue what town!you read "should" be on me at this point as i don't think we ever made it to late game together (except guardians where i was an ic, so)

[Datisi]

But at the same time I don't really know how I feel about either implosion or datisi.

okay, what is giving you conflicting thoughts about the two of us and how can i help you read me

[Datisi]

the day's been going on for like 4 irl days and i feel like we're at the exact same spot we were when it first started

i feel like we're gonna be lazing around until the deadline forces us to scramble, but i don't know what to do to actually revive this gamestate

i guess it would help if the 4 non-voting people actually... voted?

[Datisi]

@hutmeil, why are you still voting me? you seem to now agree that me not dying doesn't make me more likely to be scum, and that my thoughts on bussing being likely make sense. those are the two reasons you originally cited when voting me. are you scumreading me for something else? are you townreading everyone else? if yes to either, why?

[Datisi]

well that's disheartening

it kinda sucks being voted by hut and fire bc i think they're both town, which makes me feel like i am going to Just Die here

[Datisi]

i kind of hate this bc i don't feel that strongly about it but i really cannot see any other possible world that makes sense to me

can you talk a little bit about which other worlds have you discarded / how you came to this conclusion?

[Datisi]

a while ago, there was a game where i was town, and thought i saw a pair of two masons. because they seemed really aligned, but not in a super obvious way, and one of them was softing something, so i was like, yep masons, i'm gonna townread them, because they were under a bit of heat. then we flipped a town power role. it dawned on me that there was no room for masons in that game. i died that night, because one of the "masons" correctly realized that i am the only person in that game who will understand the soft. the mafia ended up sweeping that game, with some townies citing "datisi was townreading these people!!" as a reason to townread the scum.

after that game, i realized that i cannot tell masons and mafia apart. so my plan this game has been to completely ignore the fact the masonry exists. if we out masons in the process, shit happens. i'm not gonna mask my thought process because that has about as much chance to backfire as it has to actually work in our favour.

i feel like "idk what you're doing" is ??? because i have already said who i suspect. i have explained why i think implo is scum, in posts that have pretty much gone ignored. townies aren't speaking, either because they don't care or because "oh no the masons". i can't function in a game where people are trying to big brain hush hush. i also still think s_s is scummy but fuck if i can do anything there because he's v/la, and even when he is here he's using the "oh no the masons" excuse to not give content.

it's just annoying because i feel like *i'm trying* and i'm getting ignored because everyone has it in their head that we can't talk about anything because masons. or people striaght up don't care about this game. either way, it's making me not care too.

[Datisi]

bc i also don't really get what he's doing if he's town here either

like
i said i think you and enchant are town
i said i think implo is scum
i explained why
nothing has happened for me to change my mind. i don't understand what you're expecting me to do here.

[Datisi]

i came to the conclusion at some point that the hut/pengu wagons weren't s/s

also his jumps between thoughts (like how he went from me being townie and agreeing with the poe) to voting me because lol? is kinda like. i think scum would bother faking some sorta more nuanced though process there. or like, i feel like his partner would've helped him or at least given him some advice on what to do. unless that partner is enchant (no offense) but i don't tthink gb/hut are aligned and enchant is town anyway

[Datisi]

i feel like i had a reason why hutmeil is town based on the gamestate on d4 and you and andante being town, but it's past 2am right now and fuck if i remember

[Datisi]

and that my thoughts on bussing being likely make sense

Who do you think bussed? If you and I are town, who bussed? That only leaves implo and STD.

If I were to choose, I guess I'll choose STD since (1) he's originally Vulture who suggested the Mason reveal early, (2) too convenient lurking (though has rl valid reason...).

From your previous games, how many scums bussed on D1? Or rather, what is the optimal number of scums to bus?

@Datisi: Any thoughts?

i feel like it is really obvious who i think bussed based on the fact that i have been voting implo for like 3 years now

previous games, with a scumflip on day one, i feel like it's 80/20 bus/none. however, the games where there was no bus are usually games where the scum is really obvious and thegame ends very quickly with little conflict. the fact that we are here now, esp after hitting on wagon, indicates there is at least one busser.

[Datisi]

after hitting off wagon*, you know what i mean

[Datisi]

i do not understand how town datisi could have implosion as his top suspect and not even remotely consider who the possible masons could be if implosion is scum and if that makes sense with each other and with his other reads.

why do you think i didn't do this

[Datisi]

i mean with my reads of the "unclaimed" pool i thought it would be fairly obvious who i think the masons are, but y'know, i didn't see a point in actually spelling it out for the thread

[Datisi]

and like, no, i'm not 100% on you being town, but until i see something that changes my mind, i don't see a point in trying to reeval because nothing is changing and i have no desire to try to brute force a game half the table isn't playing

and if i die then it's not my problem anymore

[Datisi]

Is it highly probable both scums bussed D1?

highly probable? idk. maybe. depends on how bus happy the scumteam is.

[Datisi]

are you or are you not completely ignoring the fact that the masonry exists

i feel like there is a difference between"i am not gonna worry about my pushed and whether they're hitting a mason" and sanity checking if my solve makes sense now that we have a lot of claims and not a lot of people

and since you seem to be saying you think hut/std are masons together

maybe im dumb but i have no idea why hut pushes vulture like that d1 if they're mason partners

idk, i feel like smart masons would fo some token distancing because obviously. and the fact that once std and hut started suddenly townreading eachother when std repped in for like very nothing reasons do make sense in retrospect as a "oh shit oh fuck abort distancing there's a wagon"

[Datisi]

i wrote stuff about implo already

s_s yesterday was like "let's vote andante bc dead people say so" and today he's like "let's not hit a mason and vote in the obvious not masons" or however else he said it, which is extremely convenient if i'm right on fire enchant me being town

i'm tired

[Datisi]

bc i thought your point was "why is datisi openly pushing people who may be masons without being worried about it", not " did datisi forget which setup we're playing "

[Datisi]

idk, my preferred way of playing mason is <elaborate non-fakeable crumb, don't look like masons> so it makes sense to me

[Datisi]

what are you sanity checking for in that case? that they never actively tried to murder each other?

if your issue with my solve is that my bar for the masonry is too high, then what's the problem with the two different thoughts you pointed out as not making sense together

[Datisi]

i also don't understand what that means or why he thinks it's enchant over me/fire

or why scum!s_s would be shielding the unclaimed if they're all town

otherwise i don't think much has changed for me

[Datisi]

is that saying "penguin" is a negative word wtf

[Datisi]

Datisi, if you were at E-1 and no other wagon is viable with deadline approaching, would you self-hammer?

i know fire said no-lim isn't a worry; and yet, worry i do.

deadline is at 8pm my time, so yes. i will be around.

[Datisi]

I don't think Datisi's going to flip wolf.

because for why?

has this been explained yet? i feel like it hasn't, but it's 7:30am

[Datisi]

what if the scumteam is s_s/looker and the reason absolutely nothing happened today is because scum wasn't playing and town is being too scared to do anything

haha jk

unless

[Datisi]

well that's lovely but i would still like you to explain how you're getting to your reads in this catboi game

[Datisi]

i'm not saying your thoughts are dumb

i just don't get why enchant not getting voted rn implies he's scum (bc bussing exists) and s_s, who you think is second scum, is not voting anyone anyway?

[Datisi]

i was getting the vibe that looker might be scum defending me knowing i was gonna flip town and that she's trying to look better from it

but actually seeing it written out is something else

[Datisi]

me too :<

[Datisi]

i tried ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

this game reminded me how much i utterly hate scumming in setups where town has known information that they have to hide (i.e. masons)

gg towns

thanks for mod catboi

[Datisi]

Honestly, the answer may be the administration, by punishing replacing out more harshly.

this is the first thing that comes to mind, too. making replacing out have some sorta cooldown from joining new games at least. or *something*.