Open 861: The Turing Test [game over]

[GuiltyLion]

there's otherwise not a lot that I really townread there, but not a lot that I really scumread either

paranoid/self-doubt part of me is worried it's giving me shades of kuti again, but I also vibe with the point someone (I think fire?) made a day or two ago about how general consensus seems to be on Vulture rather than Roden so there must be at least some town out there thinking the way I am. And I still don't really like everything in Greeting's ISO. I'll ISO Vulture again before really throwing down a vote.

I think Rat is the remaining scum currently, all of their arguments are generally technically sound but they lack a feeling of conviction or open-mindedness to alternatives that makes them ring hollow/scummy to me. And there doesn't seem to be like... a

ton

of feeling on their end to find the last scum in the remaining alive players or convince the rest of us that they're town? Which is kinda sus cause if I were town in their shoes I'd be desperately worried about getting it wrong and being the fall person tomorrow, but there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of concern about that

[GuiltyLion]

the fact that Roden didn't really participate in the last test at all, and didn't indicate which way he'd prefer... is that really scum trying to win, especially one that knows Bell is probably going down? like if Roden is scum, the strategy is to say absolutely nothing and hope you can win a point the next day off sheer WIFOM?

[fireisredsir]

paranoid/self-doubt part of me is worried it's giving me shades of kuti again

i think the difference is that i don't think scum would have been able to predict which direction town would go here. it's not an obvtown vs a scummy slot like kuti vs dann. i would say even that prior to this daystart, the town in general were leaning more towards roden being scummier of the two

i do kinda townread vulture's posts which is still making me hesitant, but i have wrongly townread them in the past, so eh

[Vivax]

Rushing a partner through in a game where I would have to inevitably also be seen as town later would shortsighted and borderline throwing.

Can someone verbalize the reasons why furtive is town if it is being agreed upon. I look at both of the people’s isos and get equally limp feelings atp.

Umm hello, you rushed Dann who flipped town.

Yes, I suggested a plan in which we bumrush Dannflor through.

Where does that get me if I’m mafia?

This seems townie, the catch up process at the beginning of the ISO too
There is more effort behind their posts combined than in Rodens

[Vivax]

I could relate to how Roden plays if I were mafia in the game, I often struggle with having a drive to post enough while I don't have to look into a pool of questions

[GuiltyLion]

Not to Townslip teehee omg but I just realized that the people who we're voting on aren't actually here anymore and I thought they were like. Just not posting lmfao.

That being said I thought Dann was like, also able to show up and /talk/ lol but knowing that he can't... actually probably doesn't change that much but will factor it in.

do we think this is fake

I don't currently feel decided about it either way, could be genuine, could be fake, but if Roden is mafia and Vulture town this is probably the thing I'd kick myself for not considering more seriously

[Vivax]

Not to Townslip teehee omg but I just realized that the people who we're voting on aren't actually here anymore and I thought they were like. Just not posting lmfao.

That being said I thought Dann was like, also able to show up and /talk/ lol but knowing that he can't... actually probably doesn't change that much but will factor it in.

do we think this is fake

I don't currently feel decided about it either way, could be genuine, could be fake, but if Roden is mafia and Vulture town this is probably the thing I'd kick myself for not considering more seriously

If I look at the context there were 2 votes on FG and 1 on kuti on the last VC, with Loki voting and unvoting Dann in between the VC and Vultures take

vote count 2.03

with 10 votes in play, it takes 6 to make a decision. day 2 ends in (expired on 2022-08-18 01:15:00).

yeet

Dannflor [2]:

Radical Rat, furtiveglance

kutiplz [1]:

Vivax

not voting [7]:

Loki Dokie, Vulture, GuiltyLion, Aristeia, fireisredsir, Bell, Roden

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

I don't get the 'knowing that he can't' thing, do you?

[Loki Dokie]

I could post some Roden town and scumgames but what I keep going back to is Roden is pretty decent at playing scum and the fact that he was a consensus scumread for most of the game doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense wrt to that.

If anyone is good at deepwolfing, it’s Roden and he clearly hasn’t been one in this game.

[Loki Dokie]

i think Bell/Dann are S/S and this game is basically over

I agree zomg, with RR/Vivax for the third.

RadicalRat? How so?

Feels like they're deliberately positioning themselves to align with certain players rather than natural thought process and see if people agree.

And here I was thinking we might get along this game...

In all seriousness though, I don't really understand this accusation. If I were just trying to align myself with certain players, by which I can only assume you mean Loki since we've agreed on things a few times, why did it take so long to convince me on Dann being scum, to the point where even as I started to see it as a possibility it took Vulture showing up and scumclaiming to actually seal the deal? Why do I get nervous about GL instead of trying to rope him into my nefarious fake townbloc?

@RR, how did you get from hard sr Vulture to pretty much assuming they’re now town? I would also like to know that from Vivax as well?

I think one of them is either disregarding their earlier takes entirely or one of them isn’t town and Vivax currently sounds a bit more believable, he was also the cw to scum but both of their reads today and yesterday confuse the everloving fuck out of me.

[Loki Dokie]

I could relate to how Roden plays if I were mafia in the game, I often struggle with having a drive to post enough while I don't have to look into a pool of questions

Roden isn’t you though. I’ve been really lazy but posting little is never scum indicative for Roden, if anything it’s possibly town indicative for him.

Did you ISO him in Terminator? He barely did anything in that.

Basically, Roden can post quite a lot as either alignment but he’s far more likely to post less as town and his games bear this out, I think.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

[Vivax]

I could relate to how Roden plays if I were mafia in the game, I often struggle with having a drive to post enough while I don't have to look into a pool of questions

Roden isn’t you though. I’ve been really lazy but posting little is never scum indicative for Roden, if anything it’s possibly town indicative for him.

Did you ISO him in Terminator? He barely did anything in that.

Basically, Roden can post quite a lot as either alignment but he’s far more likely to post less as town and his games bear this out, I think.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

Well I also brought forth arguments for Greeting + Vulture being town. Vultures entrance felt very stream of consciousnessy without much backthought, and Greeting has very polished, detailed posts that don't look like they're hiding anything

[Radical Rat]

@RR, how did you get from hard sr Vulture to pretty much assuming they’re now town? I would also like to know that from Vivax as well?

I think one of them is either disregarding their earlier takes entirely or one of them isn’t town and Vivax currently sounds a bit more believable, he was also the cw to scum but both of their reads today and yesterday confuse the everloving fuck out of me.

My scumread on Vulture was pretty much a direct reaction to their post about rushing the Dannflor wagon. I'd been more or less tuning them out since then, until now where I'm forced to reconsider things. Had Vulture been paired with literally anyone else, I probably wouldn't have changed my read. Which does lead me to wonder why he wasn't....

[Loki Dokie]

For me, it was that and how they jumped on me for not elaborating on my furtive townread. They seemed pretty annoyed at me for that and they were literally the only one who was. And considering how hard I was defending Bell the day before, that kind of pinged me, because I think scum was expecting me to hard defend Bell, even against furtive. Maybe I’m completely tin foiling with this but their reaction just seemed kind of over the top to me, then they still vote out Bell, similar to how they voted out Kitty. Neither read really seemed to have much conviction to it. I just felt that Roden’s posting looked more genuine. Idk, Greeting also seemed weird to me. Roden isn’t doing anything - I want to consider Roden’s scumcase on furtive. Like maybe I’m wrong and it is actually Roden but I just pretty much read everything from Greeting/Vulture aside from the whole thing about mental health as sounding really fake to me. \_0_/

And Bell made it clear he wanted Kitty > Roden as well. Was that because Roden is better at scum or because he was town? I don’t recall if Bell ever said much about Greeting/Vulture or not but Kuti described both Kitty and Greeting similarly.

[Aristeia]

@Vivax

I'm rereading Vulture's D1 and I don't see what's townie/stream of consciousness about it?

This is the only "read" of any substance they post and it sets up the vote later at 890.

Eh. Kitty reasonably likely to be a bit, defended Lokie without actually
giving a read there and in general is pretty sparse with reasoning, and as of last posts ended up shrugging off responsibility to sheep.

the rest of the takes are just one line without any reasoning and they flip on their dann read after kitty flips scum?

[Vivax]

Spoiler:

I clicked into GuiltyLion’s iso thinking it would be a quick skim. Lol.

Seems to be GuiltyLioning though.

Furtive can be town.

Dan can be town for now.

Null on Kuti, look closer at if fire flips wolf.

Fire is whatever.

Roden is whatever.

vote count 1.05

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-08-11 09:45:00).

yeet

KittyTacky [3]:

fireisredsir, Bell, Vivax

Greeting [3]:

furtiveglance, Radical Rat, Loki Dokie

Roden [2]:

Dannflor, Aristeia

furtiveglance [2]:

Roden, Greeting

not voting [3]:

KittyTacky, kutiplz, GuiltyLion

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

vote count 1.06

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-08-11 09:45:00).

yeet

Greeting [3]:

Loki Dokie, Dannflor, furtiveglance

furtiveglance [3]:

Roden, Greeting, Vivax

KittyTacky [1]:

Bell

Roden [1]:

Aristeia

Vivax [1]:

fireisredsir

not voting [4]:

KittyTacky, kutiplz, GuiltyLion, Radical Rat

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

vote count 1.07

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-08-11 09:45:00).

yeet

Greeting [3]:

Dannflor, furtiveglance, KittyTacky

Vivax [3]:

fireisredsir, Loki Dokie, Radical Rat

KittyTacky [2]:

Bell, Aristeia

furtiveglance [2]:

Roden, Greeting

Loki Dokie [1]:

Vivax

not voting [2]:

kutiplz, GuiltyLion

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

vote count 1.08

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-08-11 09:45:00).

yeet

KittyTacky [5]:

Bell, Aristeia, GuiltyLion, fireisredsir, Vivax

Vivax [3]:

Loki Dokie, Radical Rat, furtiveglance

Greeting [2]:

Dannflor, KittyTacky

furtiveglance [2]:

Roden, Greeting

not voting [1]:

kutiplz

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

vote count 1.09

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-08-11 09:45:00).

yeet

KittyTacky [3]:

Bell, Aristeia, GuiltyLion

Vivax [3]:

Loki Dokie, Radical Rat, furtiveglance

furtiveglance [2]:

Roden, Greeting

Greeting [1]:

KittyTacky

Radical Rat [1]:

Vivax

kutiplz [1]:

fireisredsir

not voting [2]:

kutiplz, Dannflor

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

vote count 1.10

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-08-11 09:45:00).

yeet

Vivax [5]:

Loki Dokie, Radical Rat, furtiveglance, kutiplz, KittyTacky

KittyTacky [3]:

Bell, Aristeia, GuiltyLion

furtiveglance [2]:

Roden, Greeting

Bell [2]:

Dannflor, fireisredsir

Radical Rat [1]:

Vivax

not voting [0]:

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

Much to think about.

VOTE: KittyTacky

If I look at the post timestamps, it makes sort of sense to just spontaneously drop reads on a quick skim from Vulturues perspective.
Regardless, it's harder to fake as scum than inventing a reason to withhold information like Roden did

[Aristeia]

I think Greeting's iso is actually pretty opportunistic in how he approaches furtive/roden on d1.

I'm pushing Roden at 374, Loki begins pushing Roden at 394

Greeting's posts on Roden are not very good;

416 Greeting says my push on Roden is "spot on"
425 Says Roden's attitude towards the game is not very towny
427 Asks Roden who his biggest scumread right now is
429 Asks Loki to back off on Roden and let him explain himself

at 432 FG says he opposes the Roden vote and at 434 FG votes for Greeting instead

at 443 Loki unvotes Roden and at 444 Loki says he thinks Roden is town

at 446/447 Greeting is pivoting away from pressuring Roden to look into Roden's SR of FG.

this is weird to me because Roden didn't really post any new content for Greeting - he simply re-quoted what he had already posted at 384 to explain the FG SR back to Greeting.

then at 450/451 RR/Loki join FG on Greeting and at 453 Dann says he's fine with a Greeting wagon.

454 is the reaction post from Greeting.

469 he swings around to voting for FurtiveGlance with a very long post supporting Roden.


it feels like Greeting wanted to vote for Roden [416/425], then when the heat got flipped and FG/Loki both decided to flip their reads on Roden , Greeting decided to flip from posturing to vote for Roden to helping Roden vote for FG instead.

[Aristeia]

Spoiler:

I clicked into GuiltyLion’s iso thinking it would be a quick skim. Lol.

Seems to be GuiltyLioning though.

Furtive can be town.

Dan can be town for now.

Null on Kuti, look closer at if fire flips wolf.

Fire is whatever.

Roden is whatever.

vote count 1.05

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-08-11 09:45:00).

yeet

KittyTacky [3]:

fireisredsir, Bell, Vivax

Greeting [3]:

furtiveglance, Radical Rat, Loki Dokie

Roden [2]:

Dannflor, Aristeia

furtiveglance [2]:

Roden, Greeting

not voting [3]:

KittyTacky, kutiplz, GuiltyLion

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

vote count 1.06

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-08-11 09:45:00).

yeet

Greeting [3]:

Loki Dokie, Dannflor, furtiveglance

furtiveglance [3]:

Roden, Greeting, Vivax

KittyTacky [1]:

Bell

Roden [1]:

Aristeia

Vivax [1]:

fireisredsir

not voting [4]:

KittyTacky, kutiplz, GuiltyLion, Radical Rat

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

vote count 1.07

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-08-11 09:45:00).

yeet

Greeting [3]:

Dannflor, furtiveglance, KittyTacky

Vivax [3]:

fireisredsir, Loki Dokie, Radical Rat

KittyTacky [2]:

Bell, Aristeia

furtiveglance [2]:

Roden, Greeting

Loki Dokie [1]:

Vivax

not voting [2]:

kutiplz, GuiltyLion

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

vote count 1.08

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-08-11 09:45:00).

yeet

KittyTacky [5]:

Bell, Aristeia, GuiltyLion, fireisredsir, Vivax

Vivax [3]:

Loki Dokie, Radical Rat, furtiveglance

Greeting [2]:

Dannflor, KittyTacky

furtiveglance [2]:

Roden, Greeting

not voting [1]:

kutiplz

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

vote count 1.09

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-08-11 09:45:00).

yeet

KittyTacky [3]:

Bell, Aristeia, GuiltyLion

Vivax [3]:

Loki Dokie, Radical Rat, furtiveglance

furtiveglance [2]:

Roden, Greeting

Greeting [1]:

KittyTacky

Radical Rat [1]:

Vivax

kutiplz [1]:

fireisredsir

not voting [2]:

kutiplz, Dannflor

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

vote count 1.10

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-08-11 09:45:00).

yeet

Vivax [5]:

Loki Dokie, Radical Rat, furtiveglance, kutiplz, KittyTacky

KittyTacky [3]:

Bell, Aristeia, GuiltyLion

furtiveglance [2]:

Roden, Greeting

Bell [2]:

Dannflor, fireisredsir

Radical Rat [1]:

Vivax

not voting [0]:

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

Much to think about.

VOTE: KittyTacky

If I look at the post timestamps, it makes sort of sense to just spontaneously drop reads on a quick skim from Vulturues perspective.
Regardless, it's harder to fake as scum than inventing a reason to withhold information like Roden did

I don't see how this is difficult to fake at all upon rep in? it's not like they can rep in and post nothing? There's no actual content in the reads and they flip their dann read fairly easily on the next day to push for him to die.

[Aristeia]

I guess you could say that it's townie because they are just throwing things out there without a care but that's kind of a playstyle thing that they are fine doing as either alignment.

[Aristeia]

also rereading this part of the game where Greeting is getting pushed by Dann, Loki, FG, GL, RR etc.

if Roden is scum, wouldn't it be much easier for him to push Greeting rather than push Furtive if scum are desperate to mis-lim a town?

[Aristeia]

Rushing a partner through in a game where I would have to inevitably also be seen as town later would shortsighted and borderline throwing.

Can someone verbalize the reasons why furtive is town if it is being agreed upon. I look at both of the people’s isos and get equally limp feelings atp.

Rushing a partner through in a game where I would have to inevitably also be seen as town later would shortsighted and borderline throwing.

Can someone verbalize the reasons why furtive is town if it is being agreed upon. I look at both of the people’s isos and get equally limp feelings atp.

Umm hello, you rushed Dann who flipped town.

Yes, I suggested a plan in which we bumrush Dannflor through.

Where does that get me if I'm mafia?

This is probably just refuge in audacity.

Saying that it's "borderline throwing" to push a mislim and get a point because it makes you look worse later is like a um what moment? I don't think it's accurate to say it's throwing to pursue your win condition like ever? If anything it'd be borderline throwing to bus and go down 2-0 ?

also points are basically equal between wolves - it doesn't matter for the wolf team if kuti gets caught and vulture gets through versus if vulture gets caught and kuti gets through because both situations are losing assuming as yeet Bell.

The only way Vulture scum can win is if they yeet Dann and also get through themselves.

[Aristeia]

Mentally checked out.

E-1

VOTE: Bell

also this vote doesn't really fit with the rest of Vulture's iso which was basically a soft defense of Bell?

Like it comes right after Fire lays down a vote to E-2 which more or less makes Bell inevitable as the elimination and basically says nothing?

I don't really understand how Vulture keeps asking Loki to justify their townread of furtive and then as soon as Fire makes up his mind decides there's no more need for any other discussion?

it feels like they are rushing the day end to keep people from actually talking because they realized this is not working out for them.

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Vulture

[Aristeia]

VOTE: Vulture

Spoiler: For Dats <3

[Loki Dokie]

I don't think an apology from me is necessary, but I do probably owe everyone an explanation. I won't be going into much details, because I don't really like talking about it, and I don't really want to host an AmA right now, but unfortunately this impacted my play in this game and so I've kinda made it game-relevant.

I have a certain condition, which, when triggered, causes me to react in a way that others would describe (and have described) as a "massive overreaction". I can be erratic and my thoughts can get chaotic. Most of the time I have it under control and can manage the triggers, but sometimes I don't. I don't always know if the chain reaction is happening or not. It does tend to spiral out of control quite easily, especially in stressful situations, is quite impactful and let's say that I kinda drift away.

I should have stopped posting before I got passive aggressive, and I can own up to this mistake. But not to my "massive overreactions".

As for its' relevance to the game, I would say that when I'm mafia I tend to have my emotions more under control than not. I know that I have to watch what I say more, because any inconsistency can be used against me. When I'm town, I just don't really care, I play how I feel like playing atm.

It's, of course, up to you whether you believe this or not. I won't be offended if you don't buy it, but it's just the truth.

I don't really like this kind of stuff, I feel like it blurs the line, like a trust tell.

It's like "sorry for being emotional, I have a condition, it's because I'm always like this as town".

Ok I won't vote you then.

Cue postgame...oh you were mafia. *thinks*........well played I guess.

Know what I mean?

I'm fairly certain this would count as lying about IRL circumstances, which is against site rules.

That said, he didn't say it only happens as Town and never as scum, which definitely would be approaching Trust Tell category, so I'm not saying we report them for flipping red or anything. Just that we should take it as good faith for now.

This is what I mean - if your IRL circumstances are your self-towncase, and it's against site rules to lie about IRL circumstances, it feels like a loophole. Lying is part of the game anyway, I don't agree that you shouldn't be able to lie about IRL stuff. IRL stuff should never be relevant anyway.

This post bothered me when I was reading earlier. Besides the soft accusation that Greeting is faking/lying about having a condition, these posts are trying to frame it like he's using it as an excuse to avoid getting scum read when it seems really clear that he isn't doing that at all. He's explaining his behavior and asking people to keep that in mind when trying to read him, but he never claims that it's town indicative for him when certain behavior patterns get triggered. At most, he says he's more controlled as scum and less self-conscious as town, which are like...

really

basic tells for anyone. He doesn't even say he's guaranteed to act a certain way as either alignment, just that he puts in effort to do so.

Obviously mods get final say but I don't see any loopholes here, Greeting can be telling the truth and still be scum.

I think Roden’s ISO reads pretty townie to me and I’ve wanted to murder Greeting/Vulture since d1 and I haven’t liked about 95% of any incarnation of that slot’s posting. so I really hope this is right and if not, that the last scum isn’t Vivax, cuz then I think we’re fucked.

[Loki Dokie]

VOTE: Vulture

E-1