Mini 149: Open Role Mafia - Game Over

[MeMe]

Randomish

vote: HairyMezican

[MeMe]

I can do whatever I want -- I'm an ACTRESS. Now someone go get me a latté with double-foam and make it snappy.

oops.

[MeMe]

And Cubsfan -- the director can tell me what to do (within reason, of course), but I'll be damned if I let a two-bit seller of canned goods boss me around.

I'd FOS you if I didn't have a mani/pedi to get to.

[MeMe]

Hmmm. That's an interesting post.

[MeMe]

Well, apparently you've got an innocent (if you think you may have investigated a mason) -- so

don't

reveal him/her or you'll mark them for death as well!

[MeMe]

*press conference*

Welcome to the town. I'm Lazarusmoth, your distinguished mayor. And I just want you to know that I will use my powers for pardoning very rarely and only in extremely-contested cases. It's a powerful double-edged responsibility but I shall strive to bear the burden.

I'm not sure how the doc or the sheriff could be mafia. Wouldn't command of such powerful roles, when placed in mafia hands, mean such an unbalanced game? I hope that we could discuss this issue:

Can anyone be mafia in this setup or are there roles we can be fairly sure aren't mafia?

==Translation:

*listen up* I've got a very powerful role. Powerful roles can't be mafia or the game would be screwed up! Therefore, I'm not mafia.

End Translation==

Put me squarely in Stewie's school of thought. I'm quite interested in those who are pushing a case for innocence based on the open roles. lazmoth's post looks like a careful production to me: "You can trust me with this extremely powerful role -- since it's most likely that those of us who have public power (and I have loads of it, remember...

lots

of responsibility) are innocent."

None of the exposed roles are explicity anti-town OR pro-town. That's the point.

[MeMe]

So, then...where's mole?

[MeMe]

HM & mole -- why on earth do you two think that exposing an innocent investigation result is a better idea in

this

game than it is in any other game in which a cop is "out"?

[MeMe]

Because the scum know who are and aren't innocent already anyways.

Well, yeah...but they don't know what the

cop

knows unless the cop tells them. The whole idea is to hide as much information of our own from the scum as possible. Better to make them choose from "plenty of targets" rather than narrowing it down for them.

You've apparently not been in a game where this has been discussed to death...but you're wrong about the "scum know already" being a valid reason to expose an innocent. It's not a "weird decision" I'm making -- it's the well-documented correct decision.

See, the scum are trying to

hide

by pushing the blame onto someone else...once they know that

we

know that "George" can't be blamed, well -- bye-bye George. They won't want to keep anyone around that can't be accused of being scum. See? They might have known

all along

that George is innocent, but that doesn't matter -- it's only once the town knows it too that George becomes a liability for them. Our strategy should be to keep what we know quiet until it benefits town more than it benefits mafia. If the cop keeps results close to the vest, he can hopefully spill more than one live innocent later in the game, when it helps us more to know...and, in the meantime, the mafia has to kill blind -- not knowing who's been cleared...and Dourgrim can keep HM safe (if he so chooses) rather than having to decide whether to protect him or someone else who's been cleared.

Like I said --

always

silly to give out our information early -- but in this game, the danger's even worse because we've been told, flat-out, that HM's guaranteed to be sane -- so we

have

to trust whatever he tells us, at least for a while. There's no room for "well, maybe he's reverse/naive/paranoid. We know he's not. As someone mentioned earlier, some of the hidden roles are possibly pro-town...I think this must be the case. What if HM clears one of those hidden power town roles? It's just playing with fire, people.

Another thing is that, although we know that HM's investigations can be trusted (according to the role post), we don't know whether or not HM

himself

can be trusted. As he said himself, he could just be scum leading us astray...and, if he were, what if he gave us the name of someone he

didn't

investigate?

Two possibilities there...
1) the person's scum and we give him a pass because the cop cleared him
2) the person's innocent and the doctor wastes time protecting him (because he's become a prime target) while the mafia has an easy time picking off others.

Now - mole and HM? Can you please answer my question?

why on earth do you two think that exposing an innocent investigation result is a better idea in this game than it is in any other game in which a cop is "out"?

[MeMe]

I still think I'm right about this, but it's rather useless arguing about it if my points haven't already convinced you. I'll give it one last try, though:

The point about him being sane making the his investigatee in more danger if revealed is, to me, obvious. The mod has told us that we know without a doubt that his investigations are accurate. Usually, the cop's sanity is in doubt and the mafia could leave a player investigated as "innocent" alive as no one knows what the investigation really means. In this case, we know that the exposed innocent will have a huge target on him/her (and that's assuming that HM even tells us the truth -- something at which we can only guess).

As for HM's statement here...

Plus, if they kill the person I reveal to be innocent, that leaves me alive for one more day to try to investigate somebody else, until I actually find mafia.

...I find it rather inflated. Why should someone become a sacrifice to keep him alive? We don't know whether or not he's innocent. And, again, what if the innocent he exposes is a hidden power role? Isn't it more worthwhile to KEEP that role hidden? As mole pointed out, Dourgrim already has to choose whether to protect himself or HM -- do we really want him to have another innocent thrown into the mix so that it becomes a 33% chance that he'll protect the right one rather than a 50% chance (actually 25% from 33% as the deputy's pretty important, too)? Let's have a little example here: what if I'm the one HM investigated...and what if I'm, say, an undercover cop or doctor? What's more valuable? An out-in-the-open cop/doc or one that the mafia doesn't know about? I argue it's the latter and exposing an innocent will probably force him/her to expose their hidden role if they have one.

But, whatever. I'm not gonna keep arguing the point -- I'll just content myself with having my opinion on record and pointing out that some of the people arguing are probably not pro-town. If you're convinced revealing is the way to go and have the support of a few others, I doubt my thoughts will carry much weight.

[MeMe]

So...what's shakin' everyone?

[MeMe]

So...apparently Dourgrim hates all that Day one

posting

nonsense too, eh? Though, as Speedy pointed out, he's not killing the game singlehandedly.

Come on, someone make some really controversial vote so that we can all either join it or pounce on you for placing it! You know...kinda like

I

usually do...

[MeMe]

I agree, Xanthe. If a role doesn't function as written, it should be held against the mod, not the player.

[MeMe]

If I could vote, I'd probably go for mlaker at this point.

1) votes lazarus based on my point, even while saying he doesn't think it really merits a vote
2) defends the vote as "better than random"
3) says he's tempted to go for lurkers (a group in which he fits nicely)

Just sayin'.

[MeMe]

I do keep notes...but I also make extensive use of the "view all posts by" feature.

[MeMe]

I've noticed it, laz and it's either that 1) Stewie agrees with my points or 2) He's scum trying to take me down with him if he goes/make himself look better if

I

go.

I've never seen Stewie be a mindless follower, so that's an exceedingly remote possibility, in my opinion.

Dourgrim -- it's a drop-down feature at the bottom of the last post on any page called "display" and you can change it to feature just one player's posts.

[MeMe]

That's not what I'm talking about, HM. The drop-down menu to which I referred is thread-specific and is located right below the last post on any page -- at least when you don't display "quick-reply" (I don't know how the page looks when the reply box is shown).

Can we get a vote count, please?

[MeMe]

Stewie -- to what are you referring when you say "MeMe pointed out that her role is restricted"?

I just want to clarify that I feel as though I'm having a decent impact on this game despite not being able to vote at will. My open role doesn't feel like a handicap so much as an inconvenience.

[MeMe]

OK - so it looks like I can vote mlaker at this point. If he hasn't posted something of import by deadline, I'll put the last on (since Speedy has said a majority's necessary even in deadline situations).

[MeMe]

A further note, based on Xanthe's post that it looks like Zedmango was killed twice, imples that the scum don't, in fact, know who's scum and who's not. To me, this sort of cinches the deal. If I'm mafia or SK at this point, I'd like primarily to kill the other group, to better ensure I won't be killed at night. Thus, I want to know an innocent so I don't go after them, and instead try to kill the other scum group. And if that's the case, I'm happy to oblige the scum and let them try to go after each other. So I think my conclusion is that the cop should reveal their innocent.

You're theorizing that scum would want to find out who's cleared to avoid targeting them. OK. I understand what you're getting at here, but forgive me if I remain skeptical about 1) revealing and 2) your motives for siding with the "pro-revelation" players.

Taking your logic (scum in particular want to know who's clear) just one step further -- anyone who's pushed for revelation is suspect and anyone who's been in favor of concealing the results is more likely innocent. Right? And

you're

in favor of finding out who's cleared... Erm...

[MeMe]

(Been out of town for the last two days).

But, at this point, I could go for a Malaprop, lazarusmoth, mole, or mathcam lynch. In that order. Roughly.

[MeMe]

I'll wait to hear from vikingfan -- but I'm leaning toward voting for mathcam (if no one unvotes him, of course).

It's precisely the "weak language" that he asked us to note that jumps out as overly careful to me.

[MeMe]

I'm going to wait and see what Jaguar and mathcam (and maybe mole too on the 'opportunistic vote') have to say on the above quotes before I make my final decision/vote (pending further information of course).

That's interesting. Cam's one away from a lynch and I've said I'm considering placing the last vote. If you really wanted to "wait and see" before making a final decision -- removing your vote would add authenticity to your words.

Of course, if you're just

pretending

to be careful, your post is fine.

[MeMe]

I think they should both stay as they're not complete duplicates....and deleting posts can lead to the "no posts exist for this topic" problem.

[MeMe]

I can see the logic in a vikingfan lynch more clearly than I can see the logic for a Cam or laz lynch at this point.

Malaprop, however, has been my number one suspicion for several days now. Looking through his posts I get a "popping up when he thinks he needs to, but generally laying way too low and contributing way too little" vibe.

[MeMe]

I'm feeling extremely frustrated right now.

Listen:
1) Scum don't know for sure whether or not there are pro-town hidden roles.
2) If you're not scum, saying "I don't have a hidden role" just puts the scum's night-kill focus on someone else who

may

have a hidden role.
3) Shut

up

already! (Unless you're just faking like you don't have a hidden role when you really do...then, well-done you.)

Without saying whether or not

I

have a hidden role, I'll say that it seemed damned obvious to me both from the opening post...

This game is designed to be more interesting and more realistic by giving everyone a role that is out in the open, while some people have a second, perhaps more sinister role.

& zed's death scene...

They find him in his home, gruesomely stabbed with multiple knife wounds, and with a bullet to the head to boot. There is nothing amiss in his home or possessions. It would appear that he was just the humble town nurse.

...that there would be a possibility of hidden pro-town roles.

And I mentioned what had raised my suspicions about you in post 148, viking....you know, the post right before Cam started suspecting you. You've already addressed it -- but that didn't do much for me.

[MeMe]

In this setup I think any plan that involves informing the Mafia of the night choices of both the doc and the cop is fatally flawed.

Amen to that.

[MeMe]

I have? I thought I was quite clear that I'm currently most interested in Malaprop as a lynchee but that I can also see vikingfan as a decent alternative. While I do, however, understand mole's qualms about lynching "the" doctor -- I think we'd do best to focus on behavior.

[MeMe]

I intend to vote Malaprop as soon as he has five other votes.

[MeMe]

I can't imagine that Mal will claim anything other than townie...and, if he does, he'd have to be extremely convincing as I have him tentatively listed as not having a hidden pro-town role because of post #52, where he said (bolding mine)...

I remain unconvinced, partially because this is title Open Role Mafia and I don't see any reason that the mod would start with that premise just to throw it away immediately.

I agree that we probably have one scum in the non-vanilla-townie roles and the rest in the vanilla townies.

Maybe a smaller mafia, I dunno. I'd like to think the town has something balancing our lack of secrecy.

That he suggested "smaller mafia" as a possible balancer made me think that hidden power roles were not foremost in his mind.

[MeMe]

Sorry, hit submit before I was done.

Post #11 also went toward making me believe he has no hidden town role (which was the meaning of my post #12).

Does anyone else have the feeling that our cops/docs are marked for death? No way to hide means we'll lose them about as fast as we have nights.

[MeMe]

I'll finish him off tonight if he hasn't said anything.

[MeMe]

Um...we're

not

sure he's a plain townie. I am, however, relatively sure that if he's pro-town he's got no power role.

Plausible options are: he's got a hidden role & it's anti-town or he's a lurking townie. And, with that...

vote: Malaprop

[MeMe]

Well, I think this means that we have two killing groups, people. Since mathcam wouldn't have played the vigilante Night 1, he's not the stabber.

shot = scum
stab = SK

Which means that mafia was either blocked or their target was protected the Night 1.

Anyway, I've got good reason to

vote: Stewie

.

[MeMe]

Oh, crud. Thanks for the leniency

Alright - I'll rephrase that to say I have good reason to to vote Stewie, though I'll wait until after four others vote the scum in priest's clothing first.

[MeMe]

MeMe, does this change your opinion of Stewie at all?

No - my earlier post was pointing out that the stabbing and shooting are definitely separate groups...and that mathcam wasn't one of them. Less-experienced players may strike as a vigilante night 1, but mathcam wouldn't.

And let me be crystal clear: I'm claiming to be a cop with a guilty result on Stewie. My frustration yesterday should have made it obvious that I was hinting at having a hidden pro-town role...and mathcam's death puts to bed any doubt that they exist.

As you said, Jaguar, we are in a possibly bad situation here with two potential night deaths and 8 people left. We've still got at least one doctor, so I'm safe tonight to get another result if viking agrees to protect me. There was absolutely no reason for me to sit on a guilty result (though I wouldn't have come forward with innocents only).

Stewie is evil. Vote him if you're town.

[MeMe]

My role PM assured me that my cop sanity is unquestionable. Read over mole's open role and you'll have a good idea of what my hidden role description is.

[MeMe]

HM - why would you vote for Stewie rather than lazarusmoth? If you'd posted first and managed to get a wagon rolling on laz before I showed up -- I'd still attempt to get everyone to lynch the person I'm

sure

is guilty (per my own investigation) rather than immediately agreeing to join the group following your result.

Basically: since I don't know you're innocent, I can't trust your result. Why do you trust mine?

[MeMe]

Well, from that response, I don't think it's any secret what your given reason will be.

So, now no one should have

any

reasonable excuse for not voting for Stewie. You'd have to categorize both HM and I as scum to think it a bad idea for the town.

[MeMe]

Yep...isn't that exactly what I just said? The

only

possible way to avoid voting for Stewie is to tag both cops with a scum label.

I'm sure even Stewie will have to agree that lynching him is the best plan today. Both cops say that he's scum (and it'd be a pretty weak town that had both cops AND the deputy against them). But, if he's innocent, then you know for sure that both cops ARE scum as I would've lied about Stewie and HM would've lied about me. One town for two scums isn't a bad trade-off, eh?

String 'im up.

[MeMe]

vote: Stewie

[MeMe]

No posting in twilight

, except to point out that it is twilight.

Still, I think it's only fair that if Stewie gets to chat, a pro-town should be able to counterpoint what could be a damaging assumption (but feel free to delete this post if you disagree, Speedy).

To pretend that the game wouldn't be truly random unless the open roles were assigned randomly and

then

the hidden roles were assigned in a second round of randomness is just confusing things.

I think it's most likely that the roles were done randomly...but not in the way Stewie's suggesting. I think my role was probably written as "Actress (open)/Cop (hidden)" and then randomly assigned to me. For Speedy to have done it the "double random" way would be potentially game-ruining. The only reason I can think of for scum Stewie to push this possibility in his twilight is that he's hoping that the point itself will be strong enough to introduce doubt despite the fact that it's coming from someone will be exposed as evil quite soon. Like I said, it's my opinion that it's not fair for him to influence the game during a time that no one's supposed to be doing so without a pro-town counter-point (though, crappily, I can be punished by the mod but he can't 'cause he's dead).

[MeMe]

Yay! Way to go, town!

[MeMe]

I thought it was one of the more interesting games I've played, though I was genuinely surprised at the modkill (I do, however, understand Speedy's reasoning and support his right to lay down his own rules -- but I still believe strongly that twilight talk is always a

good

thing).

In my opinion, the balance could be potentially horrid if it's done the double-random way (my thinking on this subject can be found on my side of the twilight discussion Stewie and I were having). If you're sold on trying it that way, I think you'd need to have at least one or two roles that are NOT randomly assembled...just to be sure that the town has at least one or two power roles.

And laz! My interpretation of your opening post was spot-on! Sometimes I'm kinda proud of myself...

And here’s a PM I sent to Stewie after we were both dead:

Dangit!

And here's the entertaining reason that I investigated you last night...since you didn't "buy it."

Night 1 I checked Dourgrim and found out he was innocent. Somewhere along the way during day 1 I forgot that vikingfan was Dour's replacement and started thinking he was a really good lynch possibility. When I realized what I'd been doing, I got panicky and knew that whenever I claimed my "undercover cop" role, my day one actions (calling vikingfan a reasonable lynch candidate) would seem not to jive with the fact that I'd investigated & found him innocent night 1. So....

I decided that I'd investigate someone I'd never accused on day 1...someone I was pretty sure was innocent...and then claim to have investigated THAT person Night 1 and vikingfan Night 2 (white lie to protect myself). Well, dangitall, the one player other than viking & myself who I thought was town -- YOU -- turned out to be evil.

Well-played, Stewie. I really had no reason to investigate you except for my own play error during Day 1.

Sometimes I’m a dummy – but this time it worked out alright.

[MeMe]

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