Micro 1075: The Coalition of Imaginary Creatures (Game over)

[Deltabreedy]

It's ridiculous that you're complaining that I 'drag people out of RVS'. RVS is a useless stage that the scumteam will seek to prolong as long as possible.

The post I SR'd you for intimates that I oughtn't be trying to game-solve early in the game which is absolute tosh.

[Bingle]

Roughly where I'm at:

Town
Bingle
Deltabreedy
Dunnstral
KawaiiKame
northsidegal
Umlaut
patchwork
Keychain
Scum


Clodpoles:
Not_Mafia

[Bingle]

absolute tosh.

Is it necessarily scum tosh though or do you think it's a POV townwerk would have?

[northsidegal]

Roughly where I'm at:

Town
Bingle
Deltabreedy
Dunnstral
KawaiiKame
northsidegal
Umlaut
patchwork
Keychain
Scum


Clodpoles:
Not_Mafia

elaborate on the kame read? or maybe i'm just misreading the placement as meaningful relative to where i am

also, at this stage, i'm pretty sure that i will never be okay with a coalition passing that includes keychain.

[Bingle]

elaborate on the kame read? or maybe i'm just misreading the placement as meaningful relative to where i am

Kame has posted vaguely aight things and nothing I find actively objectionable. They have the game state read of not scum with specifically dunn which gives them the edge on you. Dunn has posted things that are vaguely town, but not so much so that I want him on the coalition. Umlaut is a minor scumlean and patch and key are both giving off majorly appease-y buddy-y vibes. I don't think Key is slam dunk scum, but yeah, I'm pretty sold on no key-a-lition.

[northsidegal]

on reflection, i actually have significantly less actually good townreads than i thought i did, which is concerning. delta is about the only confident one – dunn was an early one, but i think that there's good cause to re-evaluate that one given that i feel he hasn't actually really come into the game fully so far. his suspicion on keychain aligns with my own thoughts, but i'm not a huge fan of the comments regarding kame. entering the game and immediately forming a full coalition which does not include yourself is an objectively strange thing to do. now, i would be the first person in the world to repeat over and over that seemingly outrageous things like that aren't the best metric for determining who scum is, but at the very least it warrants questioning, and i feel as though dunn takes more of a flippant attitude towards it than is reasonable.

[patchwork]

It's ridiculous that you're complaining that I 'drag people out of RVS'. RVS is a useless stage that the scumteam will seek to prolong as long as possible.

The post I SR'd you for intimates that I oughtn't be trying to game-solve early in the game which is absolute tosh.

i'm literally not saying that i dunno how the fuck you came to that conclusion but you're really just putting words in my mouth here
i was not complaining that you were dragging us out of rvs, it was an Observation
i was not complaining that you were game-solving early, i was saying it was weird that you were trying to drop everything on so fast very early and that you shouldn't expect some players to post actual content within the first two pages

[patchwork]

patch and key are both giving off majorly appease-y buddy-y vibes.

i'm trying to be nice because that's kind of what you're supposed to do when talking to people

[patchwork]

It's ridiculous that you're complaining that I 'drag people out of RVS'. RVS is a useless stage that the scumteam will seek to prolong as long as possible.

The post I SR'd you for intimates that I oughtn't be trying to game-solve early in the game which is absolute tosh.

i'm literally not saying that i dunno how the fuck you came to that conclusion but you're really just putting words in my mouth here
i was not complaining that you were dragging us out of rvs, it was an Observation
i was not complaining that you were game-solving early, i was saying it was weird that you were trying to drop everything on so fast very early and that you shouldn't expect some players to post actual content within the first two pages

last sentence came out wrong
what i mean is that i disliked your scumread on nsg because they were fluffposting or "minimally contributing"- what do you expect a player to do when there's nothing to do in the first two pages? what are you going to talk about?

[Bingle]

i'm trying to be nice because that's kind of what you're supposed to do when talking to people

There is a difference between being a genuinely nice person and faking niceness, but neither of those are what I mean by appease-y.

Your play leaves me with the impression that you're trying to get me to trust you and tailoring your play to what you think I want to see. Tone has very little to do with that, overall.

[patchwork]

i'm trying to be nice because that's kind of what you're supposed to do when talking to people

There is a difference between being a genuinely nice person and faking niceness, but neither of those are what I mean by appease-y.

Your play leaves me with the impression that you're trying to get me to trust you and tailoring your play to what you think I want to see. Tone has very little to do with that, overall.

you said that i wasn't doing much so i started participating more??? how is that appeasey lol, discussion is good and i wasn't aware that i was playing very cautiously before

[Bingle]

you said that i wasn't doing much so i started participating more???

That's kind of... Exactly what I'm talking about. This flurry of activity in response to me saying you're not active enough makes me concerned that you're more focused on how people see you than their intentions. I also see very little paranoia about why I'm doing what I'm doing. You just seem to be accepting that my motivations are town ones.

[northsidegal]

for me personally it always puts me in an uncomfortable position when i'm playing with players for whom i have no expectations of their ability to play scum (i.e. alts or newer players).

i also find it helpful to think about this game in terms of whom to exclude, rather than to include. to repeat myself, outrageous things don't immediately make someone scum, but i do genuinely think that kame's behavior so far gives a decent argument for exclusion. in 108, kame claims to have read the entire game up to that point, come to townread the people they healed, and already have decided that they're not going to get in the coalition that eventually passes. bluntly, even if this is true, i find it strange that kame would have done all that and not actually commented on anything while reading through

[Bingle]

Fair point. Kame's exclusion of themselves seems an interesting thing to dig into, but not one that I personally need to dig into, since there's enough people poking that particular horse. I'm content to sit and watch things there develop.

I don't think it's something that is going to be a dealbreaker on a coalition inclusion for me at this point.

[northsidegal]

i think right now my exclusion pool looks like {kame, dunn, keychain, umlaut}

bingle, i need you to elaborate on your dunn read. he occupies a conspicuously high slot on your readslist there given the things you've said about him, i feel

[northsidegal]

i think right now my exclusion pool looks like {kame, dunn, keychain, umlaut}

interestingly, this exclusion pool exactly follows the heuristic that scum tend to be found in the lower half of posting frequency.

the direction of causality that you think that follows depends on your faith in my abilities as a scumhunter.

[northsidegal]

(it perfectly follows the heuristic except for NM, who as always remains an exception to every rule)

[patchwork]

you said that i wasn't doing much so i started participating more???

That's kind of... Exactly what I'm talking about. This flurry of activity in response to me saying you're not active enough makes me concerned that you're more focused on how people see you than their intentions. I also see very little paranoia about why I'm doing what I'm doing. You just seem to be accepting that my motivations are town ones.

i took what you said as criticism lol not like "omg this is what people want me to do so i am doing it now"
and yeah i townread you

[northsidegal]

Dunn has posted things that are vaguely town, but not so much so that I want him on the coalition.

sorry, i guess i missed / forgot you already said this. i think given the relative ordering of your list i assumed the read was stronger than it actually is. even still, if you feel like elaborating on what exactly you think was "vaguely town" that would be appreciated

[lilith2013]

V OTECOUNT 1.004
E LIMINATION V OTES
P LAYER N AME	C URRENT V OTES
Keychain (1)	northsidegal
patchwork (1)	Deltabreedy
KawaiiKame (1)	Keychain
Not_Mafia (0)	None
northsidegal (0)	None
Deltabreedy (1)	Umlaut
Umlaut (0)	None
Dunnstral (0)	None
Bingle (0)	None
NOT VOTING: patchwork, KawaiiKame, Not_Mafia, Dunnstral, Bingle
C OALITION V OTES
P LAYER N AME	C URRENT C OALITION
Keychain (5)	Keychain, Dunnstral, northsidegal, Umlaut, Deltabreedy
patchwork (1)	patchwork
KawaiiKame (5)	Deltabreedy, Dunnstral, Keychain, northsidegal, Umlaut
Not_Mafia (0)	None
northsidegal (1)	northsidegal
Deltabreedy (3)	Keychain, Deltabreedy, Bingle
Umlaut (4)	Umlaut, northsidegal, Dunnstral, Keychain
Dunnstral (4)	Dunnstral, northsidegal, Umlaut, Deltabreedy
Bingle (2)	Bingle, Deltabreedy
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lock in a Coalition and 5 to eliminate. Deadline: (expired on 2023-04-06 14:49:20)
Notes: I am really bad at imaginary creatures

[Dunnstral]

There explicitly is a decent town motivation for not being in your proposed coalition. I very much doubt Kame knows what it is or believes it.

Dunn's chainsaw of Key feels off. I don't think it's damning of Dunn, but I do think it's a strong reason to believe Dunn/Kame is not a S/S pair. For this reason, I would like 0-1 of them in the coalition. Dunn, what specifically about Key's reasoning on Kame do you think is scum indicative. I get not agreeing, but why is it scummy?

I'm interested to hear nsg's thoughts on nsg townreads.

I'm fairly certain on my Delta townread at this point. His play has all the hallmarks of newbtown dropped into an established lobby. Yes, I understand the previous experience, but I think that would, if anything, increase the amount of trepidation about being this open and gung ho with reads when there's clearly a lot of baggage in the thread. Contrast patchwerk, who's posting seems very careful. I think either Delta is very confident in his scumgame or just town here, and I'm just not feeling big ego energy.

I don't want to come across as chainsawing. What happened was I was reading the thread and I agreed with patchwork looking towny for something they did. And then I had a positive reaction to KawaiiKame's first 2 posts. So I looked at my coalition and I thought about where I could make space to slot in new people who are more likely town than the old people, and Keychain was where my positive feelings were the weakest.

I did not remove Keychain in reaction to their thoughts on KawaiiKame - that is simply something that I also wanted to talk about given my above thought process. With that said I'm not scumreading what keychain said about KawaiiKame, I just disagree.

[Dunnstral]

Basically Keychain dropped from 4th place in reads to 6th place, and that is why I removed them from my coalition vote

[Bingle]

I didn't. But more importantly, what did you like about Keychain's entrance?

Just a feeling. If you disagree that's fine. I didn't like Deltabreedy because they didn't make it clear if they were voting me because they disagreed with me or not; now I'm not sure why they are not a fan of my "aggressive coalition building"

Dunn feels pretty carefree here. This relaxed but active play from him feels very different than my vague recollection of his manipulative and lurky scumstyle. I also like the complete willingness to make dime turn reads reversals like the delta one.

I don't consider me putting somebody into the coalition to be me betting the game that they are town. I think being aggressive and pushing a coalition early based on gut feeling is more likely to be successful than dragging it on and allowing mafia to influence things. Also taking more time on day 1 when we have no info is not likely to be helpful to us.

This seems like a protown stance to take. Honestly, it's not the end of the world if we don't win on coalition, and being proactive and flexible is +town points at this point.

Overall, Dunn doesn't seem like he's pushing a narrative or playing with an agenda, and while he's certainly capable of faking this as scum (or used to be) I think this is page 3 town.

I will say I'm not a big fan of the last couple posts though.

[Bingle]

Roughly where I'm at:

Town
Bingle
Deltabreedy
Dunnstral
KawaiiKame
northsidegal
Umlaut
patchwork
Keychain
Scum


Clodpoles:
Not_Mafia

To clarify readstrength:

Bingle

Several pages

Delta

Several lines

Dunn

Kame

nsg

N_M

Umlaut



patch
key

Several Pages

ConfScum.

[Bingle]

interestingly, this exclusion pool exactly follows the heuristic that scum tend to be found in the lower half of posting frequency.

the direction of causality that you think that follows depends on your faith in my abilities as a scumhunter.

I think you have absolutely no ability to read me, as evidenced by you coming to scumread me in literally every game I can ever remember playing with you, but that you will still listen when I speak enough that I don't really care. I think, aggregately, that you have better reads than I do, and none of the players I think I would be specifically better at reading than you are in this game. I think I will be able to figure out your alignment in the long term with decent accuracy. Given that I have 0 completed games in the last two years, I'm not incredibly confident on any of these points.