Election! | GAME OVER

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Of note, this is the SECOND time today in which you have been pushed into a corner and come out trying to switch some shit up that makes no sense.

A fake slip on Bingle and calling me scum for an interaction that scum NEVER NEED TO HAVE.

All while in the same breath going "maybe I'm paranoid" "maybe I'm wrong". Well, you are wrong, and your point makes no fucking sense. But it feels like a scumpush when you go from "nah LLD's town" to "maybe this "weird" interaction LLD had was scum/scum?" when it's a fucking normal by the books interaction.

It feels to me like you're flailing and looking for suspects, for ANYTHING you can do to survive.

[Bingle]

namely I was thinking about this post earlier and maybe I'm way off here but... I kinda don't understand why LLD would need to ask this, when I think about it. Alisae already said e was fully funded. If LLD is town and Alisae is scum, the main benefit is to prevent scum!Alisae from changing e's story later, but I dunno I am kinda feeling a vibe that it's a S/S interaction. I don't think I can properly articulate exactly why at the moment cause sleepy brain, but I'll be around tomorrow and I'll try to unpack a lot more

Eh. She's pretty night-and-day from her scumplay here and it's not like she's not had the opportunity to try to take over. You can argue that she's just sitting back and letting me run town into a wall, but she had that opportunity in unwnds(?) game when I was an IC and didn't. It's just not her style to be passive like that. She fought hard for thread control despite the IC who was poised to lead town off a cliff metaphorically as scum then, and this detachment is way more in line with the feelings you keep professing about feeling like the town is going off rail and no one is listening to you.

[UNOwen]

Of note, this is the SECOND time today in which you have been pushed into a corner and come out trying to switch some shit up that makes no sense.

A fake slip on Bingle and calling me scum for an interaction that scum NEVER NEED TO HAVE.

All while in the same breath going "maybe I'm paranoid" "maybe I'm wrong". Well, you are wrong, and your point makes no fucking sense. But it feels like a scumpush when you go from "nah LLD's town" to "maybe this "weird" interaction LLD had was scum/scum?" when it's a fucking normal by the books interaction.

It feels to me like you're flailing and looking for suspects, for ANYTHING you can do to survive.

Why would scum Lion not just push furtive as the more consistent target?

[UNOwen]

I don't really believe furtive is scum at all, as frustrated as I am with him I think he's town.

What's convinced you?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Of note, this is the SECOND time today in which you have been pushed into a corner and come out trying to switch some shit up that makes no sense.

A fake slip on Bingle and calling me scum for an interaction that scum NEVER NEED TO HAVE.

All while in the same breath going "maybe I'm paranoid" "maybe I'm wrong". Well, you are wrong, and your point makes no fucking sense. But it feels like a scumpush when you go from "nah LLD's town" to "maybe this "weird" interaction LLD had was scum/scum?" when it's a fucking normal by the books interaction.

It feels to me like you're flailing and looking for suspects, for ANYTHING you can do to survive.

Why would scum Lion not just push furtive as the more consistent target?

Are they possibly scum together? This could be a way to distance from each other so we think only one of them can be scum.

Or a million other things.

Or he could be wrong town. I'm the one to take poorly to be misread when I'm town. It happens, I seethe and then I re-evaluate.

I'm expressing what it feels like, for the sake of being transparent with my thoughts and reactions.

[GuiltyLion]

What, as a townie, is your first reaction? Mine is always "do things by the book". If someone and I are involved in a situation where they have information where they could choose to lie or tell the truth (1v1 me or go a different angle) I will always force them to immediately claim it for the sake of not allowing that to be an option for them to try.

But it feels like a scumpush when you go from "nah LLD's town" to "maybe this "weird" interaction LLD had was scum/scum?" when it's a fucking normal by the books interaction.

That's exactly the thing though, it just feels lifeless and by the books specifically because you know town!LLD would do it, and what I don't get from it is a sense of any impetus of figuring out what happened beyond that, which makes asking Alisae to confirm feel weird. Alisae already said e was fully funded, you made em confirm it explicitly, then e does and your response is just "well simple explanation is you're scum but that would be scum claiming" and then you just... don't do anything.

like if you're town and you think Alisae is town, some bullshit must have happened. why are you not expressing that you think bullshit happened? and if you think Alisae is scum, why are you letting

me

take all the heat for pushing em while you're sitting around not helping push em? and if you think FURTIVE is scum, why are you letting him rail on me and push nonsense in the thread, why are you not pushing him, why again are you letting the thread be dominated by me pushing Alisae?

[GuiltyLion]

Of note, this is the SECOND time today in which you have been pushed into a corner and come out trying to switch some shit up that makes no sense.

A fake slip on Bingle and calling me scum for an interaction that scum NEVER NEED TO HAVE.

All while in the same breath going "maybe I'm paranoid" "maybe I'm wrong". Well, you are wrong, and your point makes no fucking sense. But it feels like a scumpush when you go from "nah LLD's town" to "maybe this "weird" interaction LLD had was scum/scum?" when it's a fucking normal by the books interaction.

It feels to me like you're flailing and looking for suspects, for ANYTHING you can do to survive.

this is also a weird reaction

- implying it was a maliciously "fake" slip on Bingle when I clearly just didn't see the first time he said "oh shit button". if he hadn't said that, it would have certainly been a slip, because at the time I thought you were the only person who had used that term and you had only used it in a thread Bingle didn't have access to. and why would scum me make any of that up?

- also, how was I "pushed in a corner" when I called out the Bingle slip to begin with?

- further, do you really think scum!me is like, "how do I survive here? Oh, I know, I'll step on town!LLD's toes! surely that will work out well for me" like what??

[GuiltyLion]

She's pretty night-and-day from her scumplay here

can you elaborate on this? I'm not really super familiar with LLD's scum play but I have the impression that she is an extremely skilled player. it seems like your argument is ultimately "LLD is passive here and scum!LLD isn't passive" but I don't know if a single game where scum!LLD wasn't passive is enough for me to be convinced she can't be scum here

[GuiltyLion]

I don't really believe furtive is scum at all, as frustrated as I am with him I think he's town.

What's convinced you?

the main thing is I don't think Alisae/furtive read S/S. Alisae was hard defending furtive in the council thread before today and if e was planning on risking himself by failing to doc the cop, I feel like that's meant to set up furtive as a fall guy if Alisae flips moreso than go hard at bat for his buddy.

the other thing is I don't believe furtive is giving any real inclination of knowing that I am town or that Alisae is scum, like his play is almost so outwardly anti-town in that world that I don't think he'd be as confident behaving the way he is if he was mafia, instead I am getting a sense that he

truly

thinks I am suspicious and is letting that drive his reads and his behavior. I don't think he knows that I'm town.

I still want to reread D1/D2 with this in mind and look at how furtive/Datisi interacted but if furtive is scum it feels like he and Alisae are going all-in a minute too early and I don't really see the strategy or logic there

if I had mod confirmed info that LLD is town I'd be back to suspicious of furtive again for all the VCA stuff namely the way in which he seems unlimmable, but yesterday I kept thinking it seems weirder that LLD has this strong furtive scumread and is still just detached from the thread and not pushing it whereas furtive is here all the time constantly advocating for his views and sparring with me

[GuiltyLion]

like I guess another way of framing my POV right now, going back to Bingle's question about scum team in scum!Ali world

- if furtive is a buddy, then he is fighting hard for thread control while Alisae kinda just sits back, and this seems backwards when Alisae would be the slot designated to possibly sacrifice today

- whereas if furtive is town, then whoever Alisae's mafia buddies are seem content to let me fight with him and it hasn't felt to me like anyone else has remotely felt inclined to get their hands dirty or get involved here - other than Bingle. which brings me to LLD and how I don't vibe with the way she apparently scumreads furtive but isn't pushing it or jumping into my arguments with him, and how I don't actually have a sense of what she thinks happened last night or what Alisae's alignment is, and that's a big red flag

[GuiltyLion]

EBWOP - whereas if furtive is town, then whoever Alisae's mafia buddies are seem content to let me fight with

FURTIVE*

sentence above was unclear

[furtiveglance]

I wouldn't call me anti-town before we have any flips

I think STD was scum based on his contributions.

SleepyKrew's recent defences are slightly making me question my scumread there

GuiltyLion could be town or scum

Alisae's posts today haven't been amazing

LLD's tunnel on me is confusing because it's +scum at face value but I've townread faer apart from that

UNOwen is probably town for D1 because I think the thread would have felt different if both serious D1 elim candidates were scum

Bingle's push on GL feels a bit muted/backseat and a lot of his contributions have been mech based

Sheep has done pretty much nothing since arrival but feels towny in places. I voted them Cop but don't feel too confident on it.

[GuiltyLion]

I wouldn't call me anti-town before we have any flips

that was assuming scum!Alisae

if Alisae is town and you are town I wouldn't call you anti-town but I'd also say the game is really fucked

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Of note, this is the SECOND time today in which you have been pushed into a corner and come out trying to switch some shit up that makes no sense.

A fake slip on Bingle and calling me scum for an interaction that scum NEVER NEED TO HAVE.

All while in the same breath going "maybe I'm paranoid" "maybe I'm wrong". Well, you are wrong, and your point makes no fucking sense. But it feels like a scumpush when you go from "nah LLD's town" to "maybe this "weird" interaction LLD had was scum/scum?" when it's a fucking normal by the books interaction.

It feels to me like you're flailing and looking for suspects, for ANYTHING you can do to survive.

this is also a weird reaction

- implying it was a maliciously "fake" slip on Bingle when I clearly just didn't see the first time he said "oh shit button". if he hadn't said that, it would have certainly been a slip, because at the time I thought you were the only person who had used that term and you had only used it in a thread Bingle didn't have access to. and why would scum me make any of that up?

- also, how was I "pushed in a corner" when I called out the Bingle slip to begin with?

- further, do you really think scum!me is like, "how do I survive here? Oh, I know, I'll step on town!LLD's toes! surely that will work out well for me" like what??

Do you know how I disproved the slip, GL?

I literally searched the words "oh shit" in Bingle's ISO. It took me 30 seconds to do. Why didn't you do that before trying to pin Bingle down for that? That's what's got me fucked up about you.

You're pushed into a corner because there's a good swath of the town who think your interaction with Ali was scummy from your end.

Honestly, GL, I respect you as a player, so it's with respect I say this. You would 100% step on my toes to make me get into a shouting match with you if you were scum because it gives you an opportunity to change the status quo and possibly convince someone you're town by the way you act.

...It's also something town you could do if you really are lost and confused.

My issue is that the way you are going about it, poking at things that don't make sense is inflamatory to my ego. You're suggesting that I did something as scum that I would be above doing, it's a lack of respect and to try and scumread me for it makes me feel like you

decided I was scum to begin with, then went looking for things to say

as opposed to the other way around.

But it's possible I'm wrong. Like I said, I have a bias when people scumread me. But this argument you're making in this post here, GL? It's the same kind of argument I'm making TO YOU about your logic. It's "why would I do that?" logic.

I have a good reason to why I think you would go toe to toe with me as scum. It's based on respect for you as a player and your skill.

The reason you have given for me indicates a lack of that respect. You have to understand that if I were scum here I would not have played the way you are describing, and there's not even a WIFOM about it.

I respect that you're grasping at straws in a way, it's even possible for you to be grasping at straws in a town manner. But at some point as a townie you have to stop scrambling to try and find worlds that work based on assumptions that might be abd and just look at the gamestate and read it for what it is.

So right now I'm going right after you to figure out which one it is. Is it town GL who is paranoid about me and scrambling about it with bad points because he feels behind the 8 ball or is it scum GL trying to escape a jam using me?

That's what I need to know.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I wouldn't call me anti-town before we have any flips

I think STD was scum based on his contributions.

SleepyKrew's recent defences are slightly making me question my scumread there

GuiltyLion could be town or scum

Alisae's posts today haven't been amazing

LLD's tunnel on me is confusing because it's +scum at face value but I've townread faer apart from that

UNOwen is probably town for D1 because I think the thread would have felt different if both serious D1 elim candidates were scum

Bingle's push on GL feels a bit muted/backseat and a lot of his contributions have been mech based

Sheep has done pretty much nothing since arrival but feels towny in places. I voted them Cop but don't feel too confident on it.

Why is my tunnel on you +scum beyond the fact that from your PoV you're town?

Like this is my issue with you. I've explained why I scumread you, I think you understand why my brain won't let it go that people just won't kill you.

I'm trapped in a tunnel because I flipped scum day 1 and then got summarily ignored for 2 straight days as we killed townies so it's hard for me to re-evaluate.

But fine, you want me to break the tunnel? Well, first of all I kind of already am. It's hard to say I'm in a tunnel when I'm actively trying to sort players in this game. But if you're speaking only on my consistent suspicion of you, you asked me why I suspect you, you got that answer.

Respond to that with a town case on yourself and why you're town, and I'll read and respond to that. If you're town and this is a genuine desire to be townread by another player you townread, I need you to put in the work to change my mind.

I'm not so inflexible I can't be convinced, but I also confess my worldview has calcified a little so it won't be easy either.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I don't really believe furtive is scum at all, as frustrated as I am with him I think he's town.

What's convinced you?

the main thing is I don't think Alisae/furtive read S/S. Alisae was hard defending furtive in the council thread before today and if e was planning on risking himself by failing to doc the cop, I feel like that's meant to set up furtive as a fall guy if Alisae flips moreso than go hard at bat for his buddy.

the other thing is I don't believe furtive is giving any real inclination of knowing that I am town or that Alisae is scum, like his play is almost so outwardly anti-town in that world that I don't think he'd be as confident behaving the way he is if he was mafia, instead I am getting a sense that he

truly

thinks I am suspicious and is letting that drive his reads and his behavior. I don't think he knows that I'm town.

I still want to reread D1/D2 with this in mind and look at how furtive/Datisi interacted but if furtive is scum it feels like he and Alisae are going all-in a minute too early and I don't really see the strategy or logic there

if I had mod confirmed info that LLD is town I'd be back to suspicious of furtive again for all the VCA stuff namely the way in which he seems unlimmable, but yesterday I kept thinking it seems weirder that LLD has this strong furtive scumread and is still just detached from the thread and not pushing it whereas furtive is here all the time constantly advocating for his views and sparring with me

it's weird i'm detached?

i was loud day 2 against what happened

i was less loud day 3 but still present in the same way until the very end of the day

today i'm even more subdued.

This is what happens when people sort of ignore me and do their own thing and flip town. I end up calcified in my reads and trying to sway people but there's only so often I can say the same 200 words over and over again until I want to die.

I know this is kind of self meta but that's a town tell for me. The fact I'm NOT IN CONTROL OF THE GAME is a massive towntell for me.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like, this is why I'm worried about your alignment GL.

Because you were in HotD. You saw how I got demotivated. I was right a LOT at first, got demotivated because I wasn't given any agency to affect the gameflow, checked out and mostly coasted on calcified reads as people killed some townies.

woke up with a green check on me and suddenly had renewed vigor.

That's... just how I am, as town. I'm emotional, I have motivation issues, I get stuck when people don't listen to me so I can't alter my reads because my predictions have been right.

Like, a game just ended, a Micro where I was town and town lost and I spent the whole game being unable to convince anyone of anything. And people still suspected me. Go read how my demotivation in that game matches here and HotD.

I don't know if you're scum or not, GL, but on the off chance you're town I think you SHOULD be able to find me town here, because this is probably the most blatantly obviously town I've ever been in a game. I get I inspire paranoia but at SOME point there has to be an end to people just abusing the paranoia on me and seeing the truth.

[GuiltyLion]

I literally searched the words "oh shit" in Bingle's ISO. It took me 30 seconds to do. Why didn't you do that before trying to pin Bingle down for that? That's what's got me fucked up about you.

I actually figured out what happened here, I initially cmd+F'd "shit" and started going through the results but there were a bunch so I then added "shit button" and got only the latter post

what I missed was he called it the "oh shit fund errbody button" the first time

I'm definitely scrambling and being overall more hot-takey/behind the ball this game than I would like, maybe I should just shut up and finally reread before posting anymore I guess

I'm not sure I fully understand why you think scum!you wouldn't have a stilted interaction with Alisae over the night shenanigans but I guess my main questions for you are these - 1) do you still think furtive is scum, and 2) why does it feel like you're in a more passive/react-to-things state rather than a push-what-you-want state?

if you disagree with the premise of 2 then that's also an answer but I think most of all I just want to find town that I can work with and it feels like the people who are more likely town are either not doing a whole lot or are scumreading me and pushing back on my reads and it's making the game feel really disjointed, and I think my pivot to being suspicious of you is because I don't like how the game looks if you're town here, like the ONLY thing that would feel fitting is furtive scum

p-edit: ok well you actually addressed both my questions lol but I'll leave this up for posterity

I guess the thing is like... if you wanna lim furtive, I ran against him so that we could possibly do that, everyone instead framed it like "we can't elect GL treasurer we might lim him!", and you haven't said a whole lot to argue for limming furtive. I kinda reject the whole notion of an Alisae/GL dichotomy today in the first place other than I strongly believe Alisae is scum and prefer limming em by a wide margin over anyone else here

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I voted you to win Treasurer

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Whether I kill you or not is only based upon whether I get a sudden increase in scum pings from you.

If you are treasurer while I do that and you turn out to be scum... So be it. But my read on Furtive is very calcified ao I voted the one I felt more likely to be town at the moment.

[GuiltyLion]

hmmmm ok

I think your posts on this page make sense

do you think Alisae/furtive reads like S-S? I mostly have a hang up around why would Alisae defend furtive so hard in the council D3 thread overnight if Alisae knows e's going to be soft-guiltied right afterwards

and why then would furtive work so hard to discredit me if he knows Alisae flips maf and I flip green

it just feels desperate and I feel like if that's what's going on then the third buddy must have very little standing like sheep or STD or Sleepy and scum is just trying to play in the short term and delay the POE by a day

[Lady Lambdadelta]

As for passive reactive vs active... Yeah. Fair cop, I am in that mode. It's what happens when I feel like my reads stagnate and I don't have a reason to question them. I wait for people to act and read that without my influence clouding it.

You have to let people cook to see their intentions.

If you want me to swap back to active mode I can but 1) it costs me a ton kf spoons when I'm demotivated like I currently am and 2) it's going to involve me being kind of forceful with people and I got yelled at until I cried for that on an earlier day.

So... I can do it but I'm hesitant because I don't want to cry over mafia anymore

[GuiltyLion]

I don't want you to do things that will lead to IRL suffering for you it's just a game and your explanation makes sense

[UNOwen]

Wasn't STD setting up the exact "whoops maybe I was wrong" take that I thought he might if scum before replacing out? Town furtive still seems entirely possible with town LLD.

It's hard for me to get motivated to try and team solve here having been wrong twice in a row and without it being a necessity just yet. Probably Alisae is scum because of the GuiltyLion push, that's enough for me.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

hmmmm ok

I think your posts on this page make sense

do you think Alisae/furtive reads like S-S? I mostly have a hang up around why would Alisae defend furtive so hard in the council D3 thread overnight if Alisae knows e's going to be soft-guiltied right afterwards

and why then would furtive work so hard to discredit me if he knows Alisae flips maf and I flip green

it just feels desperate and I feel like if that's what's going on then the third buddy must have very little standing like sheep or STD or Sleepy and scum is just trying to play in the short term and delay the POE by a day

I think Ali/Furtive reads S/S or S/T, never T/T personally. I think the mutual defensing here is an okay distancing thing and works if people suspect you, which they do. So Ali/Furtive can be scum together, or it can be just Furtive. I don't think it can be just Ali, though. I don't think in Ali scum worlds furtive is town, not with his suspect list.