Newbie 2118 | Terrieresque! - Day 4

[fferyllt]

V1.3

Oreo is a Bojack, a Boston Terrier, Jack Russell Terrier Mix.

MafiaSSK (2): SeeEmpty, Mewtaph
Kowahbunga (2) MafiaSSK, Deltabreedy
Deltabreedy (1): Kowahbunga
Merlyn (1): JasonWazza
Mewtaph (1): Merlyn

Not Voting (2):

bewolkt, T3

With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to eliminate

Deadline: April 6 , Noon US Eastern Time

countdown: (expired on 2023-04-06 09:00:00)

Mod Notes

• 

[Kowahbunga]

If I was told that you or Delta were scum, I would put my vote on Delta currently.

Don't expect a lot of reads from me on D1.

Very curious about this. Why? Or what do you mean?

It seems to me you already have a strong opinion on Mafia and your first 2 posts were already pointing out posts from others as scummie

I don't consider D1 nearly as important as everyone likes to pretend and I'm not afraid to say it. People love to mention "oh we can see this or that and wagons and blah blah blah" then all of it's for nothing because by the end of the game no one even looks at it again. I like to get my sights set on someone and focus in on them on D1. I hunt for one scum and find it. From there, I begin using information that actually exists... Like the final wagon of each day, the night kill. I consider each game like an omelet, and you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. I believe playing D1 like you're going to find all the scum and it's just going to be scum lim after scum lim until game is over is a ridiculous concept to chase. But people love to pretend that is how it'll play out.

I'm not going to bother wasting my effort getting a read on everyone D1. I'll do my part in 1 or 2 people and let others interaction with others be the information I use in D2 and later if I'm around.

Question for you, do you think a lim on Delta will actually give us all that much info regardless of flip at this point?

Absolutely think he is the only choice for a lim for today so far, but i don't think we'd get much from it at all (since we don't even get useful flipped town info because his reads are based on mirror reading).

Yes, there would be information I would look into with a scum flip from an elimination. I don't want to share it until it happens because it would just alter how they would play and that would result in me creating WIFOM for myself.

[Deltabreedy]

So my post is in response to #138 and #139 - the Wyoming reference to delegitimise arguments against gutreads being the sole source of D1 reads, then in subsequent posts the tirade against D1... Day one is every bit as important as other days and to not take it seriously enough to proactively scumhunt sucks. Looking in ISO there's activity but no attempt to game-solve or engage others in questions and conversation and that again just indicates that this isn't Town!Kowah making a commentary on gameplay in D1, this is Scum!Kowah jumping on a wagon that looks limmable and trying to use a meta-gameplay-discussion to justify the low/no-effort gameplay.

No questions, no attempt to game-solve, and trying to convince us that D1 is pointless. This isn't town-motivated gameplay.

Ninja'd: #148 so you have a gut read, but this is a fact? ~

There is not a magic formula of "e=mc^2 so a+b=scum"

but less than 20 minutes later it's a 'Fact' that I got a red PM?

Ninja'd: This is scum flailing now

[Deltabreedy]

Kowah done goofed

[Kowahbunga]

I like to get my sights set on someone and focus in on them on D1. I hunt for one scum and find it. From there, I begin using information that actually exists... Like the final wagon of each day, the night kill.

But what hunting are you doing? Just a minute ago you doubled down that your vote was a gut feeling.

Holy crap I can't post without seeing the little warning that someone else is posting x5 now...

I've provided everyone with a read on Delta that I believe him to be scum. His posts aren't genuine, he is not scum hunting he is blame passing, he is not scum hunting he is looking for anyone other than him to be the elimination today.

[JasonWazza]

Day one is every bit as important as other days and to not take it seriously enough to proactively scumhunt sucks. Looking in ISO there's activity but no attempt to game-solve or engage others in questions and conversation and that again just indicates that this isn't Town!Kowah making a commentary on gameplay in D1

I'm sorry, are you really the one saying this?

Yes, there would be information I would look into with a scum flip from an elimination. I don't want to share it until it happens because it would just alter how they would play and that would result in me creating WIFOM for myself.

What happens if Delta flips town?

We legitmately don't get anything useful, because no one has really commented on much, sure we get the NK, but you could probably NK half the game and no real info would come out, too many easy free shots that give no information.

EBWOP: I agree, i just think bad town having a fit might be just as likely

[Deltabreedy]

Do you disagree Jason

[Deltabreedy]

Because if not, stuff the semantics for half a minute and ISO Kowah

[JasonWazza]

I completely disagree with you Delta, this is Kowah's opinion, his opinion has no alignment.

[MafiaSSK]

I like to get my sights set on someone and focus in on them on D1. I hunt for one scum and find it. From there, I begin using information that actually exists... Like the final wagon of each day, the night kill.

But what hunting are you doing? Just a minute ago you doubled down that your vote was a gut feeling.

Holy crap I can't post without seeing the little warning that someone else is posting x5 now...

I've provided everyone with a read on Delta that I believe him to be scum. His posts aren't genuine, he is not scum hunting he is blame passing, he is not scum hunting he is looking for anyone other than him to be the elimination today.

oh so there is value in D1 posting then

[Deltabreedy]

ISO Kowah, Jason.

Wheres the gamesolve
Where's the engagement
Where's the questions
Where's the reads

Prove to me you're not their partner - I've got an open mind, I'll listen if you have something sensible and balanced to say that's based on sound reasoning.

[Kowahbunga]

Kowahbunga - #82 stinks. Not because they disagree with me, but because of the last sentence. 'Don't expect a lot of reads from me D1'. It's concerning too that Jason doesn't jump on this even though it's an admission that they won't offer much (potentially for the next 9 days), and the lack of justification for the reads smells off to me.

Merlyn - The thing that I find odd is the vote and immediate unvote on me. It was justified when I commented in #56 that Jason is today's lim and in #60 that this is what I can only construe as a scumread because I declared that I had a big ol' scumread on Jason. The unvote after it being pointed out that I was at E-2 suggests a lack of confidence in that read, and the weird disconnect between #83 Pointing out that what I've done is the most suspicious thing in the game so far, and then in #89 they go on to vote Mewtaph with what seems like much weaker reasoning. If they thought I was scum, putting me at E-2 would be a good thing - the rapid retraction in case of a mistake doesn't read as coming from town for me. Kind of interchangeable with Mafia below for me.

MafiaSSK - I think there's some very weird elements here that make me lean null-scum over null-town. The OMGUS in #15, the accusation of trolling I took to heart really badly because it's objectively false in #37 and I've been mulling this one over for a while because I can't tell if it's objectively scummy or if I'm just a bit bothered about it. In #38 and in #47, Mafia starts to really echo Jason which didn't help my reaction to events, but as I outline below, this is in a period where there was nothing else to actually talk about. Apparently I was stifling discussion as Jason put it by circling content, but I can't tell if this is a reaction from buddying Jason and being a partner with the most aggressive chainsaw defense going, or if it's coming from a townie that is genuinely concerned about being put to E-2. As several people have said, if 2 people hopped onto the wagon and hammered in pages 1-3, we'd have headed into D2 with a limpool of 5, not 7 because that would damn near confirm 2 scum on the wagon. I understand the concern, but it's really hard to read because of how much it aligns with Jason's POV. Mafia makes reference on several occasions to how their and Jasons' POV aligns and it's just a bit too much for comfort, pushing this read from concerned null/town to null/scum.

Jason- I've gone over this several times. Town don't have to lie and misrepresent in order to develop a case. Jason has done this as I outlined in #41 Jason's language has been passive-aggressive and designed to provoke with fabricated arguments and very deliberate misrepresentations of my intentions. Trying to insinuate that my vote was random when I was very, very open about the intent behind the vote and then doubling down on semantics.

Delta's top four scum reads as of this post were all people who had either voted him or called him scum. Funnily enough, of these four I was the last one to vote him, and now that my vote is there, I'm really scum to him suddenly.

[SeeEmpty]

I don't consider D1 nearly as important as everyone likes to pretend and I'm not afraid to say it. People love to mention "oh we can see this or that and wagons and blah blah blah" then all of it's for nothing because by the end of the game no one even looks at it again. I like to get my sights set on someone and focus in on them on D1. I hunt for one scum and find it. From there, I begin using information that actually exists... Like the final wagon of each day, the night kill. I consider each game like an omelet, and you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. I believe playing D1 like you're going to find all the scum and it's just going to be scum lim after scum lim until game is over is a ridiculous concept to chase. But people love to pretend that is how it'll play out.

I'm not going to bother wasting my effort getting a read on everyone D1. I'll do my part in 1 or 2 people and let others interaction with others be the information I use in D2 and later if I'm around.

This is terrible if it is coming from town, and it is getting on my nerves a little. All I see is:

"y'all are not going to get much from me now because that's how I play",
"you guys go ahead, while I sit back and observe so that I can do more later",
"somebody is bound to be mislimmed, stop dreaming about D2 win, and the content is going to be here anyway, so what's the point of forming/sharing any thoughts now".

If everyone just goes "Yeah my guts say he's scum", where are we getting content for D2 analysis? Sharing reads helps other to pay attention to things that they might have missed. Why is that more important in D2 than in D1?

[Kowahbunga]

I like to get my sights set on someone and focus in on them on D1. I hunt for one scum and find it. From there, I begin using information that actually exists... Like the final wagon of each day, the night kill.

But what hunting are you doing? Just a minute ago you doubled down that your vote was a gut feeling.

Holy crap I can't post without seeing the little warning that someone else is posting x5 now...

I've provided everyone with a read on Delta that I believe him to be scum. His posts aren't genuine, he is not scum hunting he is blame passing, he is not scum hunting he is looking for anyone other than him to be the elimination today.

oh so there is value in D1 posting then

Can you show me where I said there was no value in D1 posting? I'm pretty sure all I've said is D1 is not nearly as valuable as people think it is, and that everything about it is a gut feeling. It's not until D2 where there is actual hardcore information present that you can go beyond gut feeling.

[Deltabreedy]

My read on Merlyn was based on the fact that they unvoted me.

SSK and Jason I've provided a mountain of reasoning for the read.

I've been very clear on why I am voting for you since your more recent posts. Choosing to selectively ignore and manufacture a case as opposed to having a natural and well-developed case is the reason I voted for Jason - it should be clear why I'm now voting for you.

[JasonWazza]

ISO Kowah, Jason.

Wheres the gamesolve
Where's the engagement
Where's the questions
Where's the reads

Prove to me you're not their partner - I've got an open mind, I'll listen if you have something sensible and balanced to say that's based on sound reasoning.

You can not like it, but it's playstyle.

Just like you seem to not like anyone who thinks you are scum, and seem to think they are scum in return, mirror reading achieves nothing.

[Deltabreedy]

Kowah voted with their gut, but now that they've been called out for it they're backtracking and 'finding' reasons to vote me. Town!Kowah wouldn't have to do this.

@Kowah, why didn't you lead with these justifications?
@Jason, have you read through Kowah's ISO yet?
@SeeEmpty, how does this weigh up against your read on SSK?

[Kowahbunga]

I don't consider D1 nearly as important as everyone likes to pretend and I'm not afraid to say it. People love to mention "oh we can see this or that and wagons and blah blah blah" then all of it's for nothing because by the end of the game no one even looks at it again. I like to get my sights set on someone and focus in on them on D1. I hunt for one scum and find it. From there, I begin using information that actually exists... Like the final wagon of each day, the night kill. I consider each game like an omelet, and you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. I believe playing D1 like you're going to find all the scum and it's just going to be scum lim after scum lim until game is over is a ridiculous concept to chase. But people love to pretend that is how it'll play out.

I'm not going to bother wasting my effort getting a read on everyone D1. I'll do my part in 1 or 2 people and let others interaction with others be the information I use in D2 and later if I'm around.

This is terrible if it is coming from town, and it is getting on my nerves a little. All I see is:

"y'all are not going to get much from me now because that's how I play",
"you guys go ahead, while I sit back and observe so that I can do more later",
"somebody is bound to be mislimmed, stop dreaming about D2 win, and the content is going to be here anyway, so what's the point of forming/sharing any thoughts now".

If everyone just goes "Yeah my guts say he's scum", where are we getting content for D2 analysis? Sharing reads helps other to pay attention to things that they might have missed. Why is that more important in D2 than in D1?

Because town do not have information to play with in D1. I'm not saying you don't need to talk, but providing full read lists in D1 is almost pointless. Find a couple people to solve and then expand on it as the game goes. Don't try and figure the whole game out in a day that it is literally impossible to figure the whole game out in.

To take it even further, if I had my way in mafia and in a perfect world we would all vote no lim d1 silently and get to D2 unless it was a completely vanilla game with no powers.

In my opinion of the game the balance of information is where town win. At the start the town have far less than scum. Us talking is giving them more information than it's giving us. No limming guarantees no town pr is outed, PLUS it makes it so the scum have to NK by a complete random basis. I play the odds here, give us the entire town alive in N1 with powers firing, and assume the odds will be in our favour and scum hit a VT. THEN you can start playing the game for real.

The fact I even bother to try and find scum on D1 is more than I wish I had to do.

[JasonWazza]

@MOD: Delta's vote is on Kowah and MafiaSSK's vote is on Kowah as well (there might be more, those are just the 2 i noticed)

fixed, thanks ~f

[Kowahbunga]

Kowah voted with their gut, but now that they've been called out for it they're backtracking and 'finding' reasons to vote me. Town!Kowah wouldn't have to do this.

@Kowah, why didn't you lead with these justifications?
@Jason, have you read through Kowah's ISO yet?
@SeeEmpty, how does this weigh up against your read on SSK?

I'm defending myself against you. Your approach is obviously "I'll scream that you're the bad guy louder than you'll scream I'm a bad guy"

I'm town. I'm not afraid to be limmed today. You are. That's why I get the feeling we don't have the same wincon.

[JasonWazza]

@Jason, have you read through Kowah's ISO yet?

Have you read a Kowah ISO from a town game for D1?

[MafiaSSK]

I don't consider D1 nearly as important as everyone likes to pretend and I'm not afraid to say it. People love to mention "oh we can see this or that and wagons and blah blah blah" then all of it's for nothing because by the end of the game no one even looks at it again. I like to get my sights set on someone and focus in on them on D1. I hunt for one scum and find it. From there, I begin using information that actually exists... Like the final wagon of each day, the night kill. I consider each game like an omelet, and you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. I believe playing D1 like you're going to find all the scum and it's just going to be scum lim after scum lim until game is over is a ridiculous concept to chase. But people love to pretend that is how it'll play out.

I'm not going to bother wasting my effort getting a read on everyone D1. I'll do my part in 1 or 2 people and let others interaction with others be the information I use in D2 and later if I'm around.

This is terrible if it is coming from town, and it is getting on my nerves a little. All I see is:

"y'all are not going to get much from me now because that's how I play",
"you guys go ahead, while I sit back and observe so that I can do more later",
"somebody is bound to be mislimmed, stop dreaming about D2 win, and the content is going to be here anyway, so what's the point of forming/sharing any thoughts now".

If everyone just goes "Yeah my guts say he's scum", where are we getting content for D2 analysis? Sharing reads helps other to pay attention to things that they might have missed. Why is that more important in D2 than in D1?

Because town do not have information to play with in D1. I'm not saying you don't need to talk, but providing full read lists in D1 is almost pointless. Find a couple people to solve and then expand on it as the game goes. Don't try and figure the whole game out in a day that it is literally impossible to figure the whole game out in.

To take it even further, if I had my way in mafia and in a perfect world we would all vote no lim d1 silently and get to D2 unless it was a completely vanilla game with no powers.

In my opinion of the game the balance of information is where town win. At the start the town have far less than scum. Us talking is giving them more information than it's giving us. No limming guarantees no town pr is outed, PLUS it makes it so the scum have to NK by a complete random basis. I play the odds here, give us the entire town alive in N1 with powers firing, and assume the odds will be in our favour and scum hit a VT. THEN you can start playing the game for real.

The fact I even bother to try and find scum on D1 is more than I wish I had to do.

so you acknowledge that you're "bothered" to try, and yet all you thought you can give is a gut read? there's literally no other valuable info?

[Deltabreedy]

What's got you tunnelling me, Jason? Is it ego? Do you have to -win- the argument by eliminating me from the game, is that it? Help me to help you, because I've given you literally every justification and you've defended everyone against every read I have so I get the sense that it's not even alignment at this point, it's just ego. I think I'd have a more productive and fun time slamming my head against a door than trying to engage with you Jason.

If you think I'm scum, genuinely - the maths checks out that you should be limming me now, because if you were right (you aren't), it'd be 7v1, town wins an extra day to go through, develop reads as per a normal game and lim the other scum. The fact that you aren't voting me right now suggests one of two things:

- You're scum and you're doubtful you can force through a lim
- You're town and you're just egotunnelling me and trying to prove that you're 'better'

It's literally the most infuriating asset in a game of mafia to have someone who just doesn't care what you say, there's a way to think of it as scummy, a way to percieve it differently. Your confirmation bias is so hideously powerful that you're blithely saying that Kowah very clearly contradicting themselves and slipping is a 'playstyle'. Listen to yourself!

Ninja'd: @Kowah - A townie doesn't want to get limmed because every day that a townie gets limmed, a scum player doesn't. It works against my town-aligned wincon to get limmed. Sorry, would you be convinced I'm town if I celebrated your shocking justification and welcomed your misdirected vote? Give me a break

[Deltabreedy]

@Jason, have you read through Kowah's ISO yet?

Have you read a Kowah ISO from a town game for D1?

No, and I don't intend to. You can play towards and against your own meta, and I choose only to focus on this game. If you try to clear what Kowah's play is purely through meta then man, you're too far down the confirmation bias rabbit hole.

[MafiaSSK]

it has been odd that Jason hasn't been votinng for you