Micro 1073: Purgatory - Game Over!

[Vanderscamp]

For a while, the only votes on Ranger were Drew and me, two confirmed town from my POV.
Does scum never take the opportunity to hammer Ranger there?

I seem to recall someone gave an answer to this:

This isn't ELO, a quickhammer wouldn't end the game. If you're town, scum aren't all going to want to pile on just cuz since that will trigger judgment day for Aisa to make a last ditch effort to eliminate a mafiaoso. They ought to be worried about piling onto a bad wagon.

If you are mafia, Vander, then this doesn't apply;
If Aureal is mafia, then Aureal is explaining why scum didn't pile on.

Either way, the explanation for why I wasn't voted out by scum is there.

If you are scum, then the scum couldn't pile on.
If Aureal is scum, then the scum could've but deliberately avoided doing so.

Tomorrow (24h from now), I'll review AV interactions/stances and others' view of AV.

I mean, I don't expect mafia to hammer you in the sense of just quickhammering you for no reason, but you seemed like a very obvious kill to the extent that Aureal thought it was weird that I would even suggest the idea of scum getting a non-you miskill today.

I think the vote on you yesterday was very towny and I think scum could easily have voted you and not looked bad, and almost certainly looked better than all of the people who voted Drew.

[Vanderscamp]

Don't hammer me btw, I'm busy atm and want to address this stuff

[Enchant]

UNVOTE:
K

[Bellaphant]

Yeah, but since then? Because I agree, I think I was tr-ing ox when it was 'controversial' but this really doesn't look like town enchant, and enchant knows I know town him.

[Enchant]

Yeah, but since then? Because I agree, I think I was tr-ing ox when it was 'controversial' but this really doesn't look like town enchant, and enchant knows I know town him.

Only player who can read me is me.

Others claiming they do is on high amount of hopium.

[Vanderscamp]

Because, while it's obviously possible from your pov that I as scum decide to HARD townside for the entire game, I just can't understand your perspective of thinking that this is actively a likely team from your pov compared to just a random three.
Like, you saw me play as scum in the Death Note game, and it's not like I was doing any real bussing at all in that game, I was pretty much exclusively pushing anti-town lines.

To be clear, Vander is citing Death Note, a game in which scum's win condition is to not let scum leader "Kira" die. He is citing this as evidence that it's ludicrous of me to think that he could bus here in this game. Trying to bus in Death Note would have

literally

been game throwing. (Not to mention pretty damn hard seeing as scum didn't have communications or even much knowledge of each other.)

Also, "HARD townside" huh? I guess this is just him saying he's super-towny because he says so?

I have a huge amount of things I want to say to this so I'll just keep requoting this post and address all of them.


Firstly, I think your progression on me this game on me was super weird.

You apparently deep dived my entire iso and called me pretty solid overall.
Our next interactions were mainly you discussing with me my analysis of Aisa getting sent to heaven, including shitting on my take, which later turned out to be what actually happened, of the notion of someone other than Ranger being a mislim D3 with Ranger being such an obvious flip for the day.
I'm pretty interested to hear why if you didn't like Ranger and thought they were an obvious flip, why you never voted them at any point.

After that, you make post #622, which is essentially you starting to sheep a read by Vox of all people that Ranger and I could be distancing.

The next post you make is that a team of Ranger/Vanderscamp/Arko "makes sense," I'll talk more about this in a moment but there's something in #622 I'd like to address first.

[Vanderscamp]

@vander it's the why I feel is missing? Maybe I'm tired but it feels like conclusions, not procees. This in particular ' understand why scum would want to send Aisa to heaven over me if they know that Ranger is town and they can get an extremely reliable kill there to win the game if they can lim someone other than Ranger today.'

In a world where Ranger and I are both town, if scum sent me to heaven yesterday and then get a miskill on a non-Ranger player today, they can probably just assume I will send Ranger straight to hell, right?

So why not try to do that?

I actually like the reasoning here from vanders, but as was then pointed out by Aureal, that was not a likely scenario to occur since Ranger was going to be likely limmed anyway…I mean, I can see a world in which vanders is making a play that they’re all about this scenario to distance from ranger should they flip scum with the ascension to heaven, but like, is anyone going to buy that after they flip?*

Aureal what are your thoughts here with the vanders questioning? Like I’m not sure what longevity a play has where vanders promises to judgement day Ranger if vanders is scum who’s looking likely to go to heaven?

My thoughts are about whether all the Ranger/Vander fighting has been distancing, yeah. It does suck up an awful lot of Vander's attention.

Arghhh but then the thing that’s gnawing at me is I’m ALSO not sure why Ranger supported the vanders wagon, as town or scum that doesn’t make sense from Ranger if vanders is town. Unless it’s both of them are scum together and Ranger just got a bit eager and derailed his own partners wagon by offering support for it??

I have no answers for that either. I feel like if they were scum together and that was all a plan to get Vander voted to heaven, Ranger could be a little more patient there. But I think that was about the time I got in so maybe they suddenly got nervous that I was going to sway things to Aisa's side? I'll have to look back at that.

*actually…does vanders get more distancing cred with the above play if ranger is limmed, ie ranger flips scum and vanders then looks super townie for saying they’d judgement day them? Vs the distancing cred ranger would get if vanders was sent to heaven. Like could the play here have been gain the maximum cred for a d2 heaven vote for vanders???

:s

Not sure I'm entirely following you there, but I'd think they'd have preferred Vander getting the heaven vote we just had, unless that's what you meant by d2? Terminology is a bit weird in this game. The plan could've been that Ranger would get bussed D1 to get Vander the cred for the following heaven vote. Then the third, who's stayed hands off enough to not be easily identifiable, gets another heaven vote. But then since Aisa and Bella turned the wagon onto Kowah even after it looked like Ranger was going down, Vander didn't quite have the oomph for the heaven vote?

I'd like to address the bold part.

During that entire day, Ranger had Aisa as their top town, with me as secondary town, and never voted me at any point despite having the opportunity to hammer me to heaven, and instantly voted the Aisa wagon when it came about, despite voting with one of their scum reads Vox (IIRC), despite using Vox's "bad company" as a reason to not vote my wagon.

If you had had a look at this at all, you would have realized that Ranger "getting nervous that you would sway things to Aisa's side" is absolute nonsense based on Ranger's actions that day, it would have been trivially easy to see that that's not what happened EVEN IF we're scum partners together, so you making this statement and then putting us in a likely team together doesn't make sense unless you either

A) never bothered to check this
B) were lying about this being a relevant factor in your read on us two being scum together

[Vanderscamp]

Because, while it's obviously possible from your pov that I as scum decide to HARD townside for the entire game, I just can't understand your perspective of thinking that this is actively a likely team from your pov compared to just a random three.
Like, you saw me play as scum in the Death Note game, and it's not like I was doing any real bussing at all in that game, I was pretty much exclusively pushing anti-town lines.

To be clear, Vander is citing Death Note, a game in which scum's win condition is to not let scum leader "Kira" die. He is citing this as evidence that it's ludicrous of me to think that he could bus here in this game. Trying to bus in Death Note would have

literally

been game throwing. (Not to mention pretty damn hard seeing as scum didn't have communications or even much knowledge of each other.)

Also, "HARD townside" huh? I guess this is just him saying he's super-towny because he says so?

Re: hard townsiding, yes, if your solve was Vanderscamp/Ranger/Arko, what would you call it?

If the three of us are scum, and my scum partner gives a town read on my other partner, and I spend probably more time than anyone else has spent going after any other player this game just relentlessly shitting on my scum partner for their terrible townread on my OTHER scum partner, what would you call that?

I would wager that no one this game has spent more time going after anyone than I've spent going after Ranger.
So yeah, I think pretty obviously if the team is Vanderscamp/Ranger/Arko, then my actions would probably make me the town MVP as scum because no one else tried harder to kill scum than I did.
This is why for you to just randomly say that that team is believable is so weird.

Also, I never expressed any real rejection to either the Kowabungah or Drew wagons on either day, because I didn't think either of them were particularly towny, I actually thought Kowabungah in particular was pretty scummy, but I chose to not vote on either of them because I thought we could do better.

Another slightly unrelated point that I want to bring up is that as soon as I voted you over Ranger, you made some weird ass comment about "oh why are you doing this, we could have voted Ranger today" despite not putting a vote on Ranger at any point in the day.


I'm not done talking about how weird your analysis is yet either, I'll respond to death note

[Vanderscamp]

Because, while it's obviously possible from your pov that I as scum decide to HARD townside for the entire game, I just can't understand your perspective of thinking that this is actively a likely team from your pov compared to just a random three.
Like, you saw me play as scum in the Death Note game, and it's not like I was doing any real bussing at all in that game, I was pretty much exclusively pushing anti-town lines.

To be clear, Vander is citing Death Note, a game in which scum's win condition is to not let scum leader "Kira" die. He is citing this as evidence that it's ludicrous of me to think that he could bus here in this game. Trying to bus in Death Note would have

literally

been game throwing. (Not to mention pretty damn hard seeing as scum didn't have communications or even much knowledge of each other.)

Also, "HARD townside" huh? I guess this is just him saying he's super-towny because he says so?

Also, as I already said a while back, I don't think it's ludicrous to think that I could be bussing Ranger this game.
It's not actually within my scum range, but it's possible if you don't know me very well to think that I could be some kind of extremely playing-against-my-wincon maniac scum busser, and it's not ridiculous to think that it's at least an option.

What I do find ridiculous is for you to just casually mention that as a team.

If you thought Ranger and I were scum together, it's in spite of our interactions together, not because of them.
Right?
Are you disputing that, or do you think that someone relentlessly trying to lim someone is above random to be scum vs scum as a general rule?

You never gave any real reasoning why you thought that that was particularly likely, and especially not for it to be WITH Arko, based on the nature of my push on Ranger, especially since you recently ISOed me.


I'm not trying to say that this is the same game as death note, but that was your experience of seeing me play as scum, and it certainly wasn't an example of me bussing / playing against my wincon.



Like, let's take the Arko/Ox interaction.
If we all saw this obviously not scum/scum interaction and I started saying stuff like "yeah I think Arko/Ox/Aureal makes a lot of sense, I can see Ox and Arko just raging at each other at the start of the game," and I didn't have any real reasoning about why I thought that combo of scum was especially likely other than just trying to discredit the reasons why it wasn't unlikely, I would expect to (rightly) take heat for that stance unless I could bring up some kind of relevant past player-specific history on why that kind of scum/scum interaction would be likely from either player.

[Vanderscamp]

To both Enchant and Aureal, what do you think my team is?
I'm not saying that I don't have realistic scumteams, because that's not true, I just want it on record what you think the team is.

Why am I actively likely to be scum compared to other players in the game?


Aureal, your read on me yesterday was that Ranger and I were bussing each other, and/or that Drew and I were open wolfing by trying to protect Ranger from our own votes on them(???) I'm not really sure.

One of those things you know is false, and the other thing you strongly believe is false.

So what's your read on my team?
Why am I still scum enough to you to justify putting me at E-1, following a vote made my someone who is not the person you are convinced is town today?

[Vanderscamp]

Yeah, but since then? Because I agree, I think I was tr-ing ox when it was 'controversial' but this really doesn't look like town enchant, and enchant knows I know town him.

I don't know town him, I don't even remember enough about enchant to know if I know how to read them well.

Can you talk about why you don't think Enchant is town?

[Vanderscamp]

My team for the record is still Aureal/Ranger.

I think it's extremely within the realm of possibility that I'm just hard tunneling a town, and possibly even two (although I think that's very unlikely), but at the end of the day, I have a really really hard time getting past everything that's happened regarding the votes on Ranger this game.


Take Vox.
I kind of agree with Aureal that I think Vox's interactions with Ranger make them less likely to be a scum team, but I also know that Vox
a) never voted Ranger at ANY point in this game, despite always having Ranger as next on the list.

b) decided to put Aisa in heaven over me along with likely at least one other scum.
Regardless of the alignment of anyone alive today, we know that Vox started D3 with the intention of driving a mislim onto townDrew.
If scum's goal is to get a mislim D3, do they really think that Aisa is a better bet for the deciding heaven vote compared to me, if Ranger and I are both town and I've just been hard tunneling Ranger all game?
Very unlikely imo.


I don't think either of these points are damning, because I can see scum just wanting to leave Ranger alive for a mislim later in the game, thinking Ranger is an easier kill than Drew.
But there were so few scum votes on Ranger D3, I think Enchant being the literal only possibility from my pov, despite Ranger being an "obvious" kill for D3, that it makes me wonder why scum wouldn't have just gone for this D3 and probably not even look that bad from it.
Like, from my pov there were two scum MINIMUM on the Drew wagon, why go for that one? Surely they looked much worse from pushing that?...

[Enchant]

I have no idea about teams i just think you are helped by mafia to rise on heaven THEN SUDDENLY everyone went to Aisa instead.

I think swap from mafia to town is pretty fitting.

[Bellaphant]

I'm aure I asked this last day phase, but what advantage do scum have by switching it away from vander? The only thing I can think of is vander had better reads, but then aisa caught a scum anyway (GJ, but I wish we could talk!) The veer away seems negative utility for scum if he's town, but scum would deffo want the heaven to go through if he is scum - or is it too outing to the team? I've just wifomed myself, hence wanting some other opinions.

Or it's not indicative of anything, as Vanders posting was a bit wobbly mid phase: personally, I always had aisa as top town tier, with vander as next, but I remember specifically being put off as well by a vander interaction: I think it was his weird responses to my questions re the ranger lim.

But now I'm confused, because aureal has also states a few things as fact that just feel really narrative- crafting, and Vanders last few posts are towny.

With enchant, I'm right more than I'm wrong on you, I think that's a fair comment? I looked at ox's and enchants combined voting history earlier but apart from a fairly consistent ranger vote and changing their vote from Vanders town to Vanders scum, I don't think I learnt anything breathtaking.

[Bellaphant]

1.FINAL

Votecount 1.FINAL

Kowahbunga (5):

Aisa, Bellaphant, AurorusVox, Doctor Drew, Ranger.

[ELIMINATED]

Ranger (3):

Vanderscamp, BloodB0t, Oclaxian Empire.

Oclaxian Empire (1):

Kowahbunga.

With 9 players alive, it took 5 votes to condemn someone to the fiery pits of

hell

.

2.04

Votecount 2.04 (Final)

Aisa (5):

AurorusVox, Doctor Drew, Ranger, Bellaphant, Enchant. [HAMMER]

Vanderscamp (1):

Vanderscamp.

Bellaphant (1):

Aisa.

Not Voting (1):

Aureal.

With 8 players alive, it took 5 votes to send someone through the shining gates of

heaven

.

Heaven phase 1 is over.

Aisa has been sent to heaven and was a

Spoiler:

Saint.

Spoiler: Role PM

Welcome, Aisa!

You are a

Saint

, and win if 2

Sinners

are sent to hell.

Confirm by replying with your role in a PM to me.

Spoiler: This means

Aisa is now a

Martyr

and may no longer post in this game thread. In the event of a Judgement Day, she and any other Martyrs will condemn a player to hell.

3.03

Votecount 3.03 (Final)

Doctor Drew (4):

AurorusVox, Enchant, Ranger, Aureal. [HAMMER]

Aureal (2):

Vanderscamp, Doctor Drew.

Not Voting (1):

Bellaphant.

With 7 players alive, it took 4 votes to condemn someone to the fiery pits of

hell

.

Hell phase 2 is over.

Doctor Drew has been judged. He was a

Spoiler:

Saint

Spoiler: Role PM

Welcome, Doctor Drew!

You are a

Saint

, and win if 2

Sinners

are sent to hell.

Confirm by replying with your role in a PM to me.

Spoiler: This means

Doctor Drew joins the Judged PT and can no longer post in the game thread. With the numbers of unjudged (alive) Saints and Sinners equal, the game moves to a Judgement Day. Aisa, the Martyr, has 5 days to choose a player to judge. If that player is a Saint, Sinners immediately win. If that player is a Sinner, the game moves to a hell phase. During this Judgement Day, this gamethread will remain locked.

The vcs.

Day one: g: g ? R g ?
Counter: ? : ???

Day two: g: r g ? ? ?

Day three: g: r ? ? ?
Counter: ? : ? G

Wow that day one counter wagon is ???

How do we not have enough info for this? (Obviously/I/ get slightly more if I colour myself green)

[Aureal]

Enchant reaction test: completed

I think Enchant just might know Vander's alignment. Uninformed Enchant seems most likely to stick with that vote rather than promptly unvote.

VOTE: Enchant


I'll probably address some other stuff later.

[Enchant]

Enchant reaction test: completed

I think Enchant just might know Vander's alignment. Uninformed Enchant seems most likely to stick with that vote rather than promptly unvote.

VOTE: Enchant


I'll probably address some other stuff later.

We are at haste somewhere?

[Aureal]

If you're so concerned about haste, why vote in the first place? This is not RVS. You ought to know a vote can lead to an elimination easily enough here.

[Enchant]

If Vander was quickhammered it would make our job sooo much easier anyway.

[Bellaphant]

Scum aren't going to quick hammer anyway.

[Enchant]

yep

I am still not cool with leaving vander at E-1 though.

[Aureal]

Bella, what do you think Enchant's motivation here is?

[Enchant]

I am open to 1vs1 Aureal imo

[Enchant]

Wait who i don't like more, bella or aureal?

[Vanderscamp]

I have no idea about teams i just think you are helped by mafia to rise on heaven THEN SUDDENLY everyone went to Aisa instead.

I think swap from mafia to town is pretty fitting.

Why?...
Shouldn't it be the opposite if anything?