Open 875 - The Kindgom of Zeal: The Queens Chosen - GAME OVER

[Ranger]

I'm sorry I need time to sit down with this game and I'm not sure yet when that will be

Thursday sound good to you?

Sounds good to me.

[Ranger]

Mechanically, despite there being a high chance {Save The Dragons, KawaiiKame} contains at least 1 scum,
Those same mechanics dictate there’s a high chance {StD, Kawaii} contains at least 1 Doctor, and likely a N5 one at that.

Since we don’t have confirmation (nor should we), it’s mechanically a mistake to eliminate in that duo. As long as the scum don’t know if there’s a N5 Doctor, they don’t know what kill to make. If they kill the protection, we gain a mislim; if they kill a nonconfirmed to bypass this, it reduces tomorrow's lim pool.

As such, we shouldn’t no-lim.

From a mechanics standpoint, this leaves three optimal eliminations:
{Radical Rat, Lady Lambdadelta, Gimli}.
Provided one caveat; the team needs to not be precisely {STD, Kawaii}.

As long as the scumteam isn’t that duo specifically, it’s optimal to eliminate outside the duo, in the pool of 3.

Tomorrow, I'll start diving into likely teams.

[Ranger]

I'll give full disclosure now in advance:
I'm incredibly biased towards believing RR is scum.

Barring a smoking gun producing strong doubts, I likely vote them.

I'm aware of my biases. Being cognizant of them, I will try not to tunnel.
I will do my best to analyze the information available critically and objectively.

However, I do truly believe there’s quite strong evidence suggesting Radical Rat is likely scum. The bias I have is from evidence I believe is fairly strong.

I'll try to maximize transparency of thought tomorrow.

In the meanwhile, an opening prod for LLD:

Lady Lambdadelta:

You've given precious little in terms of reads this game outside of the one now irrefutably incorrect (Ranger scum).

You've given stances: furtiveglance elimination > Cephrir.
You've given mechanics.

I can honestly say I can only remember one read of yours outside your Ranger scumread and my memory says it was only once, then quickly dropped.

A great deal of my doubts on your alignment revolve around your lack of reads.

Care to change my perspective?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'll give full disclosure now in advance:
I'm incredibly biased towards believing RR is scum.

Barring a smoking gun producing strong doubts, I likely vote them.

I'm aware of my biases. Being cognizant of them, I will try not to tunnel.
I will do my best to analyze the information available critically and objectively.

However, I do truly believe there’s quite strong evidence suggesting Radical Rat is likely scum. The bias I have is from evidence I believe is fairly strong.

I'll try to maximize transparency of thought tomorrow.

In the meanwhile, an opening prod for LLD:

Lady Lambdadelta:

You've given precious little in terms of reads this game outside of the one now irrefutably incorrect (Ranger scum).

You've given stances: furtiveglance elimination > Cephrir.
You've given mechanics.

I can honestly say I can only remember one read of yours outside your Ranger scumread and my memory says it was only once, then quickly dropped.

A great deal of my doubts on your alignment revolve around your lack of reads.

Care to change my perspective?

no not really

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like

you'll either scumread me or townread me and i don't much care which.

you're confirmed town in an ELO situation, no wagon should occur without you on it by definition

so i'm more or less waiting for you to decide what you want to do

nothing i say today will convince you of anything because it can all be situationally performative

the only important choice would be "as scum does she fake N4 doctor here" which you have stated you believe I would do, so eh.

given I know we're both town, there's 2 in remaining 4, it's up to you.

Also, your mechanics logic about where to eliminate vis a vis pair of 2 group of 3 is very wrong but i'm not going to be able to convince you of anything today so

[Lady Lambdadelta]

do your business, pick our fate, if you pick correctly you may or may not die tonight based on possible N5 doctors

which frankly, is why we should mass claim.

if we have a N5 doctor for real, finding scum outside that doctor means you live to a second ELO as confirmed town.

but honestly IDGAF

[Lady Lambdadelta]

but the risk of forcing yourself into a possible 1 in 3 (maybe 0 in 3 but IDK if Kawaii/STD can exist as a pair) is not worth going for a 1/2 confirmed from your PoV even with the N5 doctor. If there are claims, maybe it is.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'll see if I feel more hospitable later, but rn I'm still tilted.

[Radical Rat]

Well I feel a lot better about LLD being scum now at least.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Well I feel a lot better about LLD being scum now at least.

yeah this is definitely scum me, you got me bruv

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm definitely not tilted from taking abuse all game to the point where I just don't give a fuck what the outcome is.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

it's fortunately not in my hands right now, Ranger gets to decide.

Where ranger votes, I vote.

[Radical Rat]

Look, I don't know you beyond a passing familiarity from other threads. I don't have a way to gauge what is and isn't "scum you" or "town you" specifically.

However, in a general sense, what you're doing right now looks a lot like rolefishing with the massclaim thing, and refusal to give reads to just sheep Ranger blindly is attempting to absolve yourself of responsibility if things go wrong. And those are things I believe are more likely to come from scum.

I get that people have been treating you poorly a lot this game, but me scumreading you for refusing to give reads and fishing for claims unnecessarily is just that.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Look, I don't know you beyond a passing familiarity from other threads. I don't have a way to gauge what is and isn't "scum you" or "town you" specifically.

However, in a general sense, what you're doing right now looks a lot like rolefishing with the massclaim thing, and refusal to give reads to just sheep Ranger blindly is attempting to absolve yourself of responsibility if things go wrong. And those are things I believe are more likely to come from scum.

I get that people have been treating you poorly a lot this game, but me scumreading you for refusing to give reads and fishing for claims unnecessarily is just that.

you're just mechanically wrong

if there's one scum in the 2 unclaimed roles, who do scum shoot tonight? Every time?

They shoot the DOCTOR.

So the ONLY WORLD in which there is any value in staying hidden is if both STD and Kawaii are town.

And if they're both town, 2/3 of you me and Gimli are scum, and even if we hit scum today they're going to shoot in the doctors.

So from my PoV, either You+Gimli is the team, at which point it won't MATTER if they claim or not, or one of them is scum and the other one gets shot tonight and we NEVER EARN AN EXTRA KILL EVER ANYWAY.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

there is NO EXTRA KILL WITHOUT BOTH STD AND KAWAII BEING TOWN.

So either you're committing to that world, in which case vote Gimli and prove it.

Or you're agreeing that there's a 0% chance we get another kill and scum can ALWAYS execute a kill tonight

and knowing the claims is superior.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

so come on then.

the only world in which Massclaiming is bad involves from your PoV me and gimli being scum

and from my PoV you and Gimli being scum.

So if you're committed to that world, the answer is simple no? Let's just kill Gimli.

But if you're hesitating to do that. If you're worried "what if Gimli is town?" then who else am I scum with bruv?

If I'm scum with you, lmfao.

if I'm scum with Kawaii or STD, I DON'T NEED TO ROLEFISH.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

because if I'm scum with STD or Kawaii, I know which one is the only unclaimed role and I can shoot it tonight for a win 100% of the time.

[Gimli]

I don't understand why you want to know if we have a n5 or not

scum doesnt always shoot the only likely doctor ESPECIALLY if the doctor is kawaii

[Radical Rat]

We know that unless Kawaii/StD are both scum, one is a Doctor, yes.

What we don't know, and what scum doesn't know, is whether they've already used their shot, or if it's used tonight, or tomorrow night.

If we force a claim, and one of them is Town and says anything other than N5 Doctor, scum now know it's safe to shoot Ranger tonight.

If they DON'T claim, scum is forced to consider the possibility of Ranger being healed and choose between making a sub-optimal kill or risk us breaking out of ELo.

I would rather scum have to make that choice.

[Gimli]

you only shoot for a win on a townflip

what are you even saying lld

[Lady Lambdadelta]

so that settles the massclaim role fishing thing.

Now let's talk about putting the responsibility on Ranger.

Nothing I say today will be more than WIFOM. Even this.

I could say all of this as scum. There's no VALUE to it. So what do I earn by being performative and arguing for myself besides possible paranoia.

As a townie, all townies should be voting where Ranger is voting today. No townie should be splitting off to do their own thing when we have a confirmed townie.

so if Ranger comes to me like "you're my only townread and I'm confuseed on what to do" my answer will be "I'm tilted and not in a much better spot myself but if you tell me where you are leaning I can play devil's advocate".

But Ranger's not doing that, Ranger's being paranoid and trying to bait me into caring about this game by holding a stick above me like "I might be worried about you".

If she wants to bonk me, she's welcome to do it. Nothing I say today will change that fact nor should it. Ranger has access to prior days, she can make her informed decision about me.

If she wants my views in a review sense to decide who she wants to kill I'll help my confirmed town player as much as she needs, within limits of my tilt.

But when it comes to reading me nothing I say matters so I'm really not invested in putting effort there.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

We know that unless Kawaii/StD are both scum, one is a Doctor, yes.

What we don't know, and what scum doesn't know, is whether they've already used their shot, or if it's used tonight, or tomorrow night.

If we force a claim, and one of them is Town and says anything other than N5 Doctor, scum now know it's safe to shoot Ranger tonight.

If they DON'T claim, scum is forced to consider the possibility of Ranger being healed and choose between making a sub-optimal kill or risk us breaking out of ELo.

I would rather scum have to make that choice.

right except it doesn't matter if Ranger lives either. She could give us an If/then statement today

"kill LLD, if we're still in the game, kill Gimli"

and we should follow that. Even if she dies.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

but again, I don't really much care.

My vote is where Ranger puts it and the outcome of this day will be as Ranger wants it to be.

[Radical Rat]

No.

Ranger is IC right now, yes. That does not mean she is infallible.

We should vote correctly today, whether Ranger agrees or doesn't. Her being confirmed makes her an incredibly valuable touchstone as a known good-faith source, and lowers the pool of elimination candidates increasing our odds of getting it right... but she is NOT an absolute authority that must be sheeped at all costs.

And as Town, you really shouldn't be advocating we follow her to your own death if she suggests it, seeing as we're in ELo and all...

[Radical Rat]

Well, technically MeLo, but you get the idea