TM 2023 | Mini Normal | Endgame

[Ausuka]

I'm serious until mastina writes a wallpost about the mastina/shirou theory

After that, I am joking

[Shirou]

THIS

is why I wanted for DGB or Xof to hammer DeasVail earlier

[Ausuka]

Hey if ausuka/shirou gets to be a thing, mastina/shirou should also get to be a thing

It's only fair

[mastina]

called Koba scum from the start of the game but investigated Mala on N1

Yeah about that.

I've got something which you're not gonna like because it's proof I'm town.

It's called I literally wrote a fucking article on how to play investigatives.

Cops should investigate competent players who are not obviously Town

or obviously scum

.

DGB can verify that I said I believed my role to essentially be a Cop in the game.

I was treating my rolecop as if it were a Cop

.

You know who was obviously scum?

DKKoba.

You know who was neither (as) obviously scum nor obviously town?

Malakittens.

Now, I did violate that N2 when I investigated the obvscum Koba. I've admitted to that being a mistake on my part.

But my N1 investigation is absolutely proof I'm town because I literally was treating my role like it was a Cop and I fucking used it as if it were one to target a player I've a proven MD article demonstrating...I would target as a Cop.

(It's worth noting that the article becomes less and less accurate for each successive night. It's 100% true for N1. I'd say only about 60-80% true for N2. And from N3 onward except in larges, the game's getting close to over so you change strategies because you're no longer looking for town clears as much as you are to work with the established game and help clutch the final aspect of the game. But I digress. That's not listed in the article so you have only my word that that's my current expanded philosophy. Still, the N1 Malakittens check was me fucking following my philosophy.)

[Shirou]

Hey if ausuka/shirou gets to be a thing, mastina/shirou should also get to be a thing

It's only fair

okay, on hindsight, m-maybe fair?

on N3 I actually also thought that Koba/Shirou wouldn't be much of a thing as we went back through Koba's ISO and looked at our interactions + the roleblock thing, but eh, anything is possible in mafia I guess. Paranoia is really effective and I've also been a victim of it in some games.

I've still not accepted that Andante was scum in my last town game before this one though.

Also...*whispers*

MariaR lim wasn't realllyyyyy that bad okie???

I had r-reasons...

[Ausuka]

But my N1 investigation is absolutely proof I'm town because I literally was treating my role like it was a Cop and I fucking used it as if it were one to target a player I've a proven MD article demonstrating...I would target as a Cop.

So you would never follow the article's advice as scum?

[Shirou]

DGB can verify that I said I believed my role to essentially be a Cop in the game.

I was treating my rolecop as if it were a Cop
.

Uhh...Rolecop isn't a Cop and thinking that it is isn't natural either

[Shirou]

I feel like Mastina arguments get progressively more unhinged as time goes on and it does amuse me

[mastina]

Mastina called out for a wagon on freedom (a lurker slot basically) on D2 rather than ever pushing Koba seriously at all before the quickhammer/"guilty".

Did I?

'Cause I'm pretty fucking sure.

That what I said was this.

If there really is a pool of {DKKoba, Ausuka, xofelf, DeasVail}, the choice there imo is quite obvious;
VOTE: DKKoba

I literally started the day voting DKKoba on D2.

damn looks like every hood was claimed and/or softed at then!

Btw this is scum admitting they figured it out.

but also lets be real aisa was killed for being the most consensus town that isnt obnoxious

This isn't what you said literally last page.

Not to mention this isn't remotely true.

I'm pretty sure the likes of Ydrasse and Shirou are far higher on the overall town list than Aisa was.

There was literally a push yesterday to

eliminate

Aisa. Aisa was under

pressure

.

Scum killed her for a reason but it sure wasn't her being townread, so this is disingenuous as fuck.

My vote was Koba while Koba was at the bottom of my list.

ItalianoVD (7):

Ydrasse

,

Ausuka

,

DkKoba

,

Shirou

, DeasVail,

Malakittens

,

ItalianoVD

Freedom (2):

, xofelf, mastina

Ausuka (1):

DrippingGoofball

DkKoba (1):

Kowahbunga
Not Voting (2): Freedom,

Aisa

Btw unless the scumteam is exactly {xofelf, Kowahbunga, Freedom}, there MUST be a scum on the Italiano wagon.

I know where my vote is at!

(It was on Koba.)\

I continued pushing DKKoba.

It wasn't until here that I hopped off of DKKoba, and you know why?

Because nobody was fucking voting Koba.

I wasn't going to be on a vanity wagon.

I was going to be on the wagon of whichever scumread had the most votes.

I pushed Koba on D2.

I ended D1 voting Koba and had the entirety of D1 pushing Koba.

So I literally fucking did push Koba as hard as I fucking could.

I've been struggling with burnout from work (working five hours a day has been exhausting me), combined with chronic health issues flaring up (likely from some form of Long Covid). I've been struggling to keep afloat--so much so that it's been fucking weeks since I've written a blog. That I have been struggling everywhere across my entire life is self-evident.

And

despite those struggles

, I was doing everything in my fucking power to push Koba. I was trying DESPITE my health issues and burnout limiting me. All the times I sacrificed rest at work to play this game, I was pushing Koba. All the times I gave up on naps for mafia games, I was pushing Koba.

To say my push on Koba wasn't serious is a fucking lie. I couldn't have been more seriously pushing Koba and it fucking shows in my iso.

Shirou is literally fucking lying about my push on Koba.

[Shirou]

I've stopped fully reading them for today because c'mon I'm not replying to all that when I may not even need to if DV is really scum. It's not impossible I may be the NK in that scenario.

However the sections I do read often feel more unhinged/desperate...she's trying so hard that it's admirable...

like, I think it's just scum!Mastina but if it's town!Mastina it's also funny in a different way because all those wallposts are meaningless. I'm just town, my role is town, the way I'm playing is solidly in my town meta including the desperation of seeing my scumread flipping vs me as scum being more patient to get potential mislims, and the nightactions scum took would confirm me as town if there was a way to 100% verify that Koba RB'd and like...she's still there.

Under the veil of those dark gloomy nights, if Mastina is town she's really there writing an entire wikipedia on why Shirou is definitely scum fr fr.

[mastina]

Joking aside, what say you about a DV/Freedom team?

Can't work--that team leaves us with effectively eight town PRs.

A VT who in this setup is an IC due to Normal Game requirements.
And seven PRs.

Against a confirmed goon (Freedom), DV, and then just the multitasking roleblocker?

Not a chance in hell.

Balance-wise, there has to be one scum in the PRs.
In theory, there could be two, although I don't see any combo which doesn't risk making the game go scumsided. (Aside from the aforementioned Ausuka, but again, I think Ausuka is town by play.)

[mastina]

some of mastina's reasoning today like blaming me for people not paraphrasing their hoods when it's obviously because it's just a tedious task feels like a classic case of reaching.

I'll take reaching any day over outright lying about what happened in the game!

The former, I've freely admitted to, and largely retracted my statements when I admitted it was fair that they were a stretch.

The latter is something I'm not guilty of--but you sure as fuck are.

[Shirou]

I discussed this once with Norwee but although mafia is just a party game, I feel like some of the elements of how it's played really tells a lot about the people playing it and human psychology in general.

I think the best scenario is just where Mastina is scum and is trying her best to win the game, but if she's ever town all the effort she's putting despite her real-life seeing so busy/hard right now will all be..wasted. Maybe even counter-productive given in that scenario we should be working together.

I've been on that side of the wall in games, and perhaps I'm in that side of the wall right now, and we can never really know can we? Whether the things we believe in, the people we consider enemies/bad and therefore imagine stuff would be better without them, our actions with good intentions but unknown results/outcomes...there's no mod flips in real-life, no one to tell us the unbiased absolute truth, so we may carry our bias to our bitter end huh.

If mafia games never had mod confirmed flips, could you ever convince yourself that some of your past most wrong reads which you "definitely" thought were scum/the baddies were actually townies just like you?

I'm not sure I could on some cases.

Random thoughts of a bored Shirou I guess.

[mastina]

What's the detailed case for scum!Freedom? ell even for scum!Shirou

Well, Freedom is basically:
-Koba quickhammered on D2.
-This quickhammer needed to have some form of scum motivation.
-The accepted motivation most likely was to cut discussion short.
-The discussion was on Freedom being scum.
-Freedom was close to an elimination on D1, but then DKKoba the flipped scum abandoned the Freedom wagon in favor of the ItalianoVD mislim.
-DKKoba therefore protected Freedom not once, but TWICE, on BOTH day phases.
-Koba's interactions with Freedom are blatantly scum distancing, a la gems like this;

Arko: felt they were awkward in 504 and has them as nullscum. I haven't really read into arko so I'm just sponging

arko is a shrug kill and not the *worst* option today in terms of optimal lim order but I still think italiano is way more necessary to resolve + has been more or less outted fmpov

perfect time to counterwagon italiano so arko slot could potentially self clear!

Oh hey,

this is actually huge

What time did Malakittens claim to be a FV in her neighborhood?

Arko, the Freedom slot, is in Malakittens's neighborhood.

Arko, the Freedom slot, cannot have gotten cleared by role because they are a vanilla neighbor, no PR.

So...

How would DKKoba know Arko was going to self-clear on D1?

Maybe by...

...Scum roleblocking an outted Fruit Vendor?

[mastina]

perfect time to counterwagon italiano so arko slot could potentially self clear!

Oh hey,

this is actually huge

What time did Malakittens claim to be a FV in her neighborhood?

Arko, the Freedom slot, is in Malakittens's neighborhood.

Arko, the Freedom slot, cannot have gotten cleared by role because they are a vanilla neighbor, no PR.

So...

How would DKKoba know Arko was going to self-clear on D1?

Maybe by...

...Scum roleblocking an outted Fruit Vendor?

Let me reiterate this.
Shirou is arguing that Freedom isn't scum,
Because scum roleblocked Malakittens,
When Malakittens claimed to be a fruit vendor on D1.

Except.

DKKoba literally said Arko/Freedom would be cleared

.
Freedom couldn't be cleared by their role.
So what could Koba mean by that?

Maybe...
...Oh, I dunno...
...Scum roleblocking an outted FV who outted in her neighborhood that Arko/Freedom was in?

[mastina]

Votecount 1.15

Arko (4):

Malakittens, DeasVail, xofelf, mastina

ItalianoVD (3):

Ausuka, DkKoba, Shirou

perfect time to counterwagon italiano so arko slot could potentially self clear!

Like.

At this stage in the game.

Arko/Freedom was the leading wagon.

DKKoba was voting for ItalianoVD, the D1 mislim.

DKKoba was hard-pushing

against

the Arko wagon at this point.
DKKoba specified they wanted Arko to potentially self-clear.

Arko is a neighbor--so how would Arko self-clear?

Maybe by letting people argue that Arko/Freedom...wouldn't waste a scum roleblock...on an outted FV who claimed in their neighborhood D1?

Like.

How the fuck does Koba make this post if Freedom isn't scum with Koba?

I can't think of how Koba makes that post with Arko/Freedom as town, especially not with all that we know now.

[mastina]

Votecount 1.15

Arko (4):

Malakittens, DeasVail, xofelf, mastina

ItalianoVD (3):

Ausuka, DkKoba, Shirou

perfect time to counterwagon italiano so arko slot could potentially self clear!

Like.

At this stage in the game.

Arko/Freedom was the leading wagon.

DKKoba was voting for ItalianoVD, the D1 mislim.

DKKoba was hard-pushing

against

the Arko wagon at this point.
DKKoba specified they wanted Arko to potentially self-clear.

Arko is a neighbor--so how would Arko self-clear?

Maybe by letting people argue that Arko/Freedom...wouldn't waste a scum roleblock...on an outted FV who claimed in their neighborhood D1?

Like.

How the fuck does Koba make this post if Freedom isn't scum with Koba?

I can't think of how Koba makes that post with Arko/Freedom as town, especially not with all that we know now.

(Btw I was originally planning on doing both a Freedom AND Shirou case in 2088 before I caught the smoking gun that hard-condemns Freedom. I wasn't even finished with the Freedom case so didn't cover the Shirou half either. This is important enough that I need to make sure it's not buried though.)

[mastina]

I guess I get to thank Shirou for exposing why Freedom is basically confscum here.

I wouldn't have been looking at that stage of D1 otherwise, but I guess now we know why there's been such a strong effort to save Freedom including today!

[mastina]

I'm actually interested on someone making a compelling case on anyone else

I think I just did unless you can explain how DKKoba, flipped scum, knew that Arko/Freedom (confirmed by me to be just a Neighbor, no special role), would be seen as clear, on D1.

When by your own confession, Malakittens had already claimed Fruit Vendor.

How would Arko/Freedom be cleared?

I only have one answer and it is scum deliberately doing a move they knew would make Arko/Freedom look like they couldn't be scum with Koba.

I'd like to reiterate the facts here.

DKKoba is a flipped scum roleblocker.
DKKoba, on D1, said the Arko/Freedom slot would self-clear.
DKKoba, the scum roleblocker, protected Arko/Freedom on D1.
Malakittens shared a neighborhood with Arko/Freedom.
Malakittens outted herself as being a Fruit Vendor in this neighborhood D1.
Malakittens sent fruit to Shirou and Shirou claims to have not received that fruit.
DKKoba, the scum roleblocker, quickhammered Kowahbunga, despite knowing that would effectively out them as scum.
DKKoba, the scum roleblocker, in doing so prevented a Freedom wagon from going through on D2.
DKKoba, the scum roleblocker, didn't try to save themselves from their action on D2 which was very clearly a scum quickhammer.

All of these are facts.

We can infer from the facts it is likely Malakittens was roleblocked.

We can infer from the facts DKKoba knew they were going down D3--and likely deliberately did so.

From inferring that DKKoba knew they were going down D3, we can infer they knew that the scum would be revealed to have a scum roleblocker after Koba's elimination went through that day.

What do those facts together imply of Freedom's alignment?

I think the answer is pretty fucking clear!

[mastina]

perfect time to counterwagon italiano so arko slot could potentially self clear!

You know, this post doesn't seem to actually follow from the previous posts.

What's it referring to?

Arko being replaced?

I'm legit wondering if this was a scumslip from Koba that nobody caught--if it was meant for the scum PT, but Koba accidentally posted it into the gamethread, and nobody noticed it until now because nobody was really paying attention.

[Ausuka]

I don't think it makes sense for it to be meant for the scum pt if arko is scum

The implication is that italiano would flip scum and arko slot would be cleared from that i think

[mastina]

Freedom- Man, your slot before was sus, you've also not really fixed that amount of sus.

If it looks like a scum,
If it has VCA strongly implicating it as scum,
If it has scum that defended them repeatedly across multiple days,
If it has a really fucking damning post that looks like it was scum laying the foundation to artificially engineer a clear on the slot,
If it has been wagoned the entire game with resistance the entire game...

...Then it is probably a fucking scum.

[Shirou]

can you at least vote Freedom then if you're going to be here writing a wikipedia about how for sure it's Shirou/Freedom...?

[mastina]

But I also find it weird that she's been outed for a couple Days yet nobody has stopped her from doing her shit. There's also been quite a few posts that she's made that she keeps getting some of the information not quite exactly right, and I don't know what to do with that.

The information I keep getting not quite exactly right is because surprise surprise! I don't have a fucking scum PT. (Or for that matter, a team that's helped their teammates out. We've basically been ignoring the 'team' aspect of Team Mafia the entire tournament. >_> <_<) And my own neighborhood, the place I would prefer to have these things sorted out, has been dead the entire game.

I haven't had a place where I can really put my thoughts out and get feedback on them and get them right--that, on top of all the rl shit I've had going on. Burnout from work + presumed long-covid causing debilitating/crippling chronic health issues to reach all-time highs + struggling to stay afloat, means that it's a fucking miracle I've done as much as I have and gotten as much right as I did.

I've literally been dealing with situations where I was tired enough to pass out at the fucking keyboard--you think that in a mental state like

that

, I'm going to flawlessly process all the information and get it right?

I wouldn't be desperately taking the emergency naps I have been if that were true! A lot of the emergency naps have been motivated by trying to have some semblance of lucidity for this game--and I've

mostly

succeeded. That it's only "mostly" should be proof that I'm town here; if I were scum, I would've gotten it completely right.

As for not being blocked or killed--the lack of kills I believe is fear of a protection role on me.
If scum believed there was a town jailkeeper in the game, it might even explain the lack of blocks, too!

Ydrasse outted that she was a tracker-type role on D2.
What is a town role commonly paired with tracker?

Jailkeeper.

What do jailkeepers do besides protect?

Roleblock.

So whoever DGB targeted, couldn't be killed, but also would be a waste for Koba to block.

If DGB is town,
And if the scum didn't know DGB specifically was the jailkeeper,
And if the scum managed to guess there WAS a jailkeeper,

...Then scum would want to avoid killing/blocking whoever the jailkeeper targeted.

Of course, this only works if you assume DGB is town, but my previous reasons hold true as well.

Scum roleblocking me would have conftowned me--given a possible motivating factor in DKKoba quickhammering on D2 was to avoid the town from realizing I am town, that means the scum have a motive for not roleblocking me.
Scum roleblocking me doesn't roleblock a role which could foil their plans--if Koba was the only role on the scumteam which could produce a guilty to my rolecop, and if Koba was planning to go down D3, they didn't care about my roleblock N2; they

would

care about preventing an unknown TPR from interfering.

The number of reasons scum could have chosen to not roleblock me are half a dozen.
The number of reasons scum would roleblock me is one, and it's to...stop...an investigation...that scum weren't afraid of? Just because it's stereotypical scum play to block the investigative? Like...that's literally the only reason they would have. Because it's common play.

Blocking me provided scum with no strategic advantage, and gave them notable potential strategic disadvantages.

[mastina]

can you at least vote Freedom then if you're going to be here writing a wikipedia about how for sure it's Shirou/Freedom...?

I'm not ready for the day to end quite yet!

I'm planning on it tho.

And I'd like to note--if you were actually town you'd be fucking listening to me.

I literally found a smoking gun that HARD-condemns Freedom.

I literally have shown how your narrative doesn't reflect what actually happened.

I literally have shown reason to doubt your solve, plenty of reason.

And you're not taking any of it into consideration, especially not the fucking smoking gun that hard-condemns Freedom, because...

...You are not actually town, solving the game.