Micro 1082 - I’m the Real Tracker (Day 4)

[Kowahbunga]

Also another News Flash for Bingle, outing the Pretenders early, isn't actually good for town.

Isn't this literally impossible to do without their flips? Not even scum can know who is a pretender until the flip. In fact, one of the scum could even be a pretender. So this post seems very odd.

[Kowahbunga]

Scum don't have usefull powerroles.

This seems like such a definitive point to make. I believe it further adds to how I currently feel about this slot.

Also, don't you think that scum getting roles that are more beneficial to town than to scum, a benefit to scum since town don't get them?

[Bingle]

Also another News Flash for Bingle, outing the Pretenders early, isn't actually good for town.

Isn't this literally impossible to do without their flips? Not even scum can know who is a pretender until the flip. In fact, one of the scum could even be a pretender. So this post seems very odd.

I mean, technically we could massclaim, determine which roles contained pretender slots lim one of those roles and have a pretty good shot at publicly outing pretenders on D2. That would also be a very stupid plan.

[Kowahbunga]

Also another News Flash for Bingle, outing the Pretenders early, isn't actually good for town.

So, probably the last time I’m engaging on this, because it’s already become a huge distraction from actually scumhunting, but what can I say: I can’t resist it.

Jason’s original advocacy for a mass pseudo claim introduces massive risk of mafia being able to narrow role likelihood down by the read type. If black targeted JW here, for example, even without my claim, everyone would pretty well be able to tell that wasn’t a doc shot and was probably about investigating. My claim doesn’t really change that.

What he has been doing is saying all of the things he sees as positive fallout from my claim (such as a roleblocker who is supposedly negative utility being able to target a low priority action if they choose) and trying to point power roles at specific people. A doctor could have the idea that I would be a night action magnet and protect me, or a doctor could think “Wow, neighbor is shit, I wouldn’t kill there” or a doctor could think “Man Bingle is an asshat; I hope that fucker dies.” JW is the one, through arguing specific potential lines of thought, that is actually aiming the doc at me, and the rb at me, and the tracker at me.

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT EVERY PLAYER CHOOSE THEIR OWN TARGETS, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THAT TARGET IS ME. This denies scum access to the thought processes of the roles to scum.

Additionally, nothing I’ve done is about publicly outing the pretenders, but rather privately letting the pretenders themselves know they are pretenders.

Also, this is a micro. Potential XLO is D3 we absolutely want to have the pretenders know who they are before that point if we can.

VOTE: JW

If you could, because you seem like you know where to look and I'm more concerned with being caught up. Did JW tell the doc to target you? If so, where? If you don't get to it before I'm caught up, I'll find it, but if you have it quicker than me, great.

[Bingle]

Not in as many words. JW expressed a reason why a doc might choose to target me based on me being a neighbor, which positively influences the odds that a doc might target me based on being a neighbor. I think a doc targeting me based on anything other than their read on my slot would be silly.

[Bingle]

Well any seeking neighbor, Pretender or otherwise targets Bingle, as you noted, a kill would make sense to go towards Bingle, so a Doctor probably needs to go there as well, and the way it was claimed means it could just be scum trying to justify targeting the kill by saying "i am targeting randomly" so Roleblock and Tracker could also make sense heading to Bingle.

This is what I was referencing, and when I pushed at it the response was "That's not what I think should be done, but what someone else might think should be done." which does not at all match the presentation of the post in my eyes.

[Kowahbunga]

I don't believe meta exists.

/oog

It definitely does. I'm not going to pull up specific examples, but suffice to say that there are people with a certain amount of experience/dedication to reading that are able to have mostly accurate reads on certain people. There are also people who are so shit at one alignment or another that their alignment is pretty much always obvious. Generally though, when people make meta arguments they are doing so very poorly.

The kind of thing that meta is fairly universally good for, though, is determining what kind of person a player is. Like, JW is fairly aggressive, merlyn was pretty cautious from what I could tell, vizzy tends to be pretty go with the flow, you appear to be pretty open and I can't help but get bogged down in theory when the opportunity arises.

None of that can directly tell me someone's alignment, but it does provide a framework to guess at what they might be trying to do in this game, which does.

tl;dr- Meta is a tool to be used in conjunction with other tools. It is very rarely useful as a standalone.

To me I don't want to believe in it, because it's something that can be changed on a whim. People grow, their opinions change, if I finally see the light about "no lim d1 bad" my "meta" changes - the only thing is I don't announce this until the next game I play. There is not a forum I go to and declare my opinions and play style. It's way too fickle of a tool to use in my opinion. If it helps others, more power to them, but I'd rather be fooled by the play going on in the current game, than fooled by someone who knows their meta and uses it to fool me because I'm too concerned with with their meta in a previous game. At best, Meta is a D1 tool people can use to advance discussion. Past D1, it's no longer useful. I'm fine if you disagree with me.

[Kowahbunga]

The problem with your view of the game, Kowah, is that games are designed to not give enough information for town to actually be able to solve them simply through the use of night actions. A game like that can exist, but generally if you only approach the game looking at the information provided by cops/investigations/etc, you're going to lose.

Yes, we will probably end up eliminating town today, but in doing so we will narrow down the pool of players scum can be in. Think of the D1 lim as a cop shot that has the potentially good or bad side effect of leaving a corpse behind.

Night actions still provide information for the entire game to use. Maybe Person A has a strong power and uses it and provides the game the info they get but has no idea how to use it, but someone might. My suggestion is not a single power solves the game, but teamwork from providing as much information as we all can as quickly as possible so we don't take it to our grave, combined with a majority of town players all trying to piece the puzzle together makes me feel like you would get a positive win rate if you played 100 games like this as town. Maybe you don't win all of them, what fun would the game be if that was the case.

I'll go further, my argument for this is selfish. I want all the pieces in front of me to try and solve it. Maybe it's not the best way to play for town. I've been playing a long time, and have never convinced a town to do it yet. So I'm probably going to need that failure to happen before I concede my opinion.

[Kowahbunga]

What do you think of JW, Kowah?

I read ahead to see if you answered my request about the doc thing. I think that's a scum mindset through and through. I would lime JW or Don at this point.

Donempire JasonWazza would be my scum team.

[Kowahbunga]

Also another News Flash for Bingle, outing the Pretenders early, isn't actually good for town.

Isn't this literally impossible to do without their flips? Not even scum can know who is a pretender until the flip. In fact, one of the scum could even be a pretender. So this post seems very odd.

I mean, technically we could massclaim, determine which roles contained pretender slots lim one of those roles and have a pretty good shot at publicly outing pretenders on D2. That would also be a very stupid plan.

I guess what scares me most, and is likely entirely unavoidable, is the potential of lost information this game. It's going to happen, and I just don't want it to. Reading this post makes me no longer feel a mass claim is a good idea today. I stand by a no lim.

[Black]

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT EVERY PLAYER CHOOSE THEIR OWN TARGETS, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THAT TARGET IS ME. This denies scum access to the thought processes of the roles to scum.

Quoting this for posterity

[Black]

Delta, why did you answer Invis's question and not mine?

But my statement is backed up by something- Kowah doing this as town in our previous game together. You were actually there too, though you replaced out pretty early, but I think you were still around when Kowah started advocating a D1 no lim policy there too.

I don't like meta reading someone if they are used to doing scummy things as town. The reason people including me were suspect on his no-lim gameplan was because it would be forcing town into hibernation. Playing the game simply in mechanical terms would only benefit scum here. If that is how he plays as town!kowah, then we need to warn him that this helps scum and be suspicious of him anyways as the facts of the matter dont change. And fwiw, i don't buy meta reads, so i'm plainly reading people as per their actions, not their intentions.

I don't believe spitballing ideas itself is scummy. However i don't believe kowah has done enough to convince us of his game plan, which also with him abandoning his no-lim idea as he votes bingle makes it seem as though he wasn't that committed to it in the first place and was just saying it to get some content out.

why didn't you warn kowah then that his actions were helping scum? and I feel like you are assuming a lot in kowah's intentions like he did x so y must be true it doesn't follow logically. In fact his inconsistency does give me pause let me do y but do x instead. I think that itself is worth exploring. at what point does someone go from 'spitballing' to advocating?

@ kowah how attached are you to no limming day 1?

I would hammer it right now if I could.

Also another News Flash for Bingle, outing the Pretenders early, isn't actually good for town.

Isn't this literally impossible to do without their flips? Not even scum can know who is a pretender until the flip. In fact, one of the scum could even be a pretender. So this post seems very odd.

I mean, technically we could massclaim, determine which roles contained pretender slots lim one of those roles and have a pretty good shot at publicly outing pretenders on D2. That would also be a very stupid plan.

I guess what scares me most, and is likely entirely unavoidable, is the potential of lost information this game. It's going to happen, and I just don't want it to. Reading this post makes me no longer feel a mass claim is a good idea today. I stand by a no lim.

There is a disconnect in your thought process here. You say you would hammer a no-lim right now but then you go on to say that you don't really want to lose information this game. Do you not consider ending the Day on page 10 a loss of information? Because I do. Cutting discussion short like this would only benefit scum

[Kowahbunga]

Delta, why did you answer Invis's question and not mine?

But my statement is backed up by something- Kowah doing this as town in our previous game together. You were actually there too, though you replaced out pretty early, but I think you were still around when Kowah started advocating a D1 no lim policy there too.

I don't like meta reading someone if they are used to doing scummy things as town. The reason people including me were suspect on his no-lim gameplan was because it would be forcing town into hibernation. Playing the game simply in mechanical terms would only benefit scum here. If that is how he plays as town!kowah, then we need to warn him that this helps scum and be suspicious of him anyways as the facts of the matter dont change. And fwiw, i don't buy meta reads, so i'm plainly reading people as per their actions, not their intentions.

I don't believe spitballing ideas itself is scummy. However i don't believe kowah has done enough to convince us of his game plan, which also with him abandoning his no-lim idea as he votes bingle makes it seem as though he wasn't that committed to it in the first place and was just saying it to get some content out.

why didn't you warn kowah then that his actions were helping scum? and I feel like you are assuming a lot in kowah's intentions like he did x so y must be true it doesn't follow logically. In fact his inconsistency does give me pause let me do y but do x instead. I think that itself is worth exploring. at what point does someone go from 'spitballing' to advocating?

@ kowah how attached are you to no limming day 1?

I would hammer it right now if I could.

Also another News Flash for Bingle, outing the Pretenders early, isn't actually good for town.

Isn't this literally impossible to do without their flips? Not even scum can know who is a pretender until the flip. In fact, one of the scum could even be a pretender. So this post seems very odd.

I mean, technically we could massclaim, determine which roles contained pretender slots lim one of those roles and have a pretty good shot at publicly outing pretenders on D2. That would also be a very stupid plan.

I guess what scares me most, and is likely entirely unavoidable, is the potential of lost information this game. It's going to happen, and I just don't want it to. Reading this post makes me no longer feel a mass claim is a good idea today. I stand by a no lim.

There is a disconnect in your thought process here. You say you would hammer a no-lim right now but then you go on to say that you don't really want to lose information this game. Do you not consider ending the Day on page 10 a loss of information? Because I do. Cutting discussion short like this would only benefit scum

I was trying to convey how much I would no lim. I've already said this day is fine to get info from because it will benefit the targeting of the powers.

[Invisibility]

I was trying to convey how much I would no lim. I've already said this day is fine to get info from because it will benefit the targeting of the powers.

but you would prefer to end it right now?

[Invisibility]

176 and 183 make me feel like Donempire knows the roleblocker is town. Also 180 gives out a town read to someone for not wanting mech talk, unless I'm confused isn't suggesting where a roleblocker should go and mathing out the liklihood a roleblocker stops a night kill "mech talk" or do I not understand what mech talk means?

VOTE: donempire

weren't other people also talking like they assumed the RB would be town? That's weird reason to single out Donempire on

[Donempire]

Huh. I'm at l-1 i believe. Didn't know you guys hated me this much...

[Black]

Huh. I'm at l-1 i believe. Didn't know you guys hated me this much...

Is that it?

Fwiw I townread your slot pretty heavily and I think it's obvious there's

at least

one scum pushing you rn. Maybe two but that seems risky tbh. If you really are town then who do you think is scum on your wagon?

[Black]

Also I'm not sure if this needs to be said but please announce intent to hammer before doing so

[Donempire]

Delta, why did you answer Invis's question and not mine?

But my statement is backed up by something- Kowah doing this as town in our previous game together. You were actually there too, though you replaced out pretty early, but I think you were still around when Kowah started advocating a D1 no lim policy there too.

I don't like meta reading someone if they are used to doing scummy things as town. The reason people including me were suspect on his no-lim gameplan was because it would be forcing town into hibernation. Playing the game simply in mechanical terms would only benefit scum here. If that is how he plays as town!kowah, then we need to warn him that this helps scum and be suspicious of him anyways as the facts of the matter dont change. And fwiw, i don't buy meta reads, so i'm plainly reading people as per their actions, not their intentions.

I don't believe spitballing ideas itself is scummy. However i don't believe kowah has done enough to convince us of his game plan, which also with him abandoning his no-lim idea as he votes bingle makes it seem as though he wasn't that committed to it in the first place and was just saying it to get some content out.

Everyone will be able to provide information of what they did or what result they got tomorrow if they wanted to. To me this is amazing for town because I believe the game is a race of information. There is a finite amount of information this game has. Scum start with a head start but the sooner town can match the amount scum have, or simply pass it, then the sooner town should win.

To me it feels like this game used to have a bit more of a roleplay aspect to it from all players. But now days it seems more like scum can drop that charade and just get on with it while town feel like they've got to play this game like they're sherlock holmes, holding their cards close to their chest, and not wanting to give anyone else any info because they want all the glory to figure it out themselves.

I feel strongly right now that a game like this where everyone has a role, even if some roles aren't real, could be solved by a mass sharing of info on D1 followed by a no lim to maximize the info provided tomorrow. That scum would be unable to hide by the end of the game. But I think the disconnect between me and literally everyone else that plays, is that the whole town playerbase wants to win the game by limming scum every day until there's none left with the unrealistic goal of the entire town making it out alive. While I understand that's the spirit of the game, and that I'm probably playing against the spirt of the game, I'm just here trying to win. To me, to win a game of mafia is simple. You force scum to lie. The sooner they have less rocks to hide behind, the sooner they have to lie to hide, the sooner it's more likely someone catches them lying.

However, I'm not trying to ruin 8 other people's game. These are just my opinion of it, and I'm not going to stomp my feet until I get what I want. I bring it up, see what interest there is in my theory, and if it's dead on arrival like usual then I'll just fall in line and play the game that everyone wants to play.

You're still thinking in perfectionist terms. What you're claiming here is that the more town there is, the more information we'll have when thats simply factually untrue. I already said that half the town will give bogus info assuming a night kill. What you also lose here with this is the ability to deduce from past wagons and pushes since you blindly go for a no lim day one.

Mass claiming would also be a similarly magnificent mistake. You're outing the doctor for no reason which cannot heal itself, so barring a pretender doctor claim as well that is just a dead doc at arrival. You're outing your investigatives, and at that point you're just hoping that a pretender rolled inspector so they can tank the hit instead of the real inspector, and thats assuming the inspector rolled town in the first place. You're outing your roleblocker as well, which scum can reverse engineer into assuming who they'll roleblock to try either framing the guy or just avoiding making the kill with who you suspect will be rbd. And so on and so on, and... for what exactly? We know the rolelist already, it's not like c9 where you get one roleset out of a dozen, we already know which roles there are. The only thing it does is out the pretenders as the duplicate roles will be apparent, and leave the other power roles naked.

So your plan would blow up unless we rolled a doc and 2 pretender docs, as that is just giving scum free info they don't have access to.

I don't think you're trying to ruin the game. I just think you're not thinking this through fully, which makes me even more confident you're just pushing this to make the appearence of creating content. I believe a town!kowah would either have had better explanations on this no limming theory, or just dropped it when they realized the plan didn't make sense after a retrospective. The situation as it stands, looks like you came up with an idea and now are just sticking with it just to.

And on that note, you are voting me... So you changed your mind to a pro-limming strat? I would like you to explain why you changed your mind as between this post and voting me there was nothing except 2 bingle posts.

[Donempire]

@ kowah how attached are you to no limming day 1?

I would hammer it right now if I could.

Interesting.

Not the what, but the why. I've listened to "what" you found appealing about a no-lim strategy. Now to figure out "why" you turned to the light side.

This isn't the first time you voted, so i would be remiss if i said you were just flipping on a "lim strategy" now. You also voted bingle. However, i think your vote on me represents a more serious change since i'm at l-1, whereas in 90 your vote simply had the goal of pushing a scumread. So what is my point?

Well, you put forth more or less a comprehensive argument for what you saw in the no-limming. I already responded to what i found flawed, but that's not my issue right now.
My issue is, you write up an argument for why no-limming makes sense to you, and immediately after that you vote me?
This kind of thing is what makes me believe you have no conviction behind your postings. I really don't care if you put forth a horrible strategy, because that is not inherently scummy. I've said as such in my previous posts, and i was waiting to see not necessarily how you expanded on your idea, but rather if you expanded on it and stood by it, or retracted the idea after you couldn't justify it any longer. Instead, you've not only elaborated further on your idea, but you also seemingly abandoned it right after. Begging the question, why in the first place did you bother justifying a no-lim strategy? You dont owe me an explanation, you could've just said that you didn't stand by it anymore. There is no reason for such a sharp strategical turn for town, if you believe a strategy you'd think you would stick by it at least until someone made a sufficient rebuttal, which didn't happen. If you didn't believe in it anymore, then why did you write up all that conveying the importance of no-limming?

The way i see it, town!kowah has no reason for following this thought process. I would love to hear if you had a reasonable explanation for this turn. However, scum!kowah wouldn't mind this, as this would put them at the best spot as they wouldn't be called out for "dodging questions" by giving an explanation to me, and then to avoid being turned on (by too aggressively pushing their idea) they would park their vote on me, an advancing wagon, so the focus of the town would turn on to me.

[Invisibility]

Donempire votes don't make a whole lot of sense to me

[Donempire]

Scum don't have usefull powerroles.

This seems like such a definitive point to make. I believe it further adds to how I currently feel about this slot.

Also, don't you think that scum getting roles that are more beneficial to town than to scum, a benefit to scum since town don't get them?

I'd rather not devolve into mech-talk further. I'll answer since you're pressing me on this.

Doctor and loyal checker are useless roles for scum. Other powerroles have negligible uses.

[Invisibility]

what is Kowah at

[Donempire]

Scumread.

VOTE: Kowah

I act like i am waiting on kowahs explanation on how he is town here, but i'm afraid that ship sailed after his last few posts. I was waiting on their action following me pressing them on their strategy to vote them, and they did pretty much what i expected.

I would also say that political clout is a townlean for now. I might elaborate if needed.
Black i would say hasn't posted enough for me to get a definite read, but if i had to i would also put them at a townlean.
Bingle and JW have been too caught up in mechtalk for me to get a good read on them.
Appearence.................... hasn't made an appearence in a long time so i have no read on them either.

All my other reads haven't changed.

[GuyInFreezer]

bump