Newbie 2128 - Manila Noir - Postgame

[Keria]

imo i think the Mihkail/mason situation will sort itself out. we don't need to eliminate there today. if he's telling the truth then he'll be in the crosshairs of the NK, and if he's lying then that will become apparent once we start seeing some flips

we should avoid playing his little mini game though. outting his partner (if he's telling the truth) won't do town any good

[Starfire]

welp
the posts after that look horrendous and scummy, that fuels my confidence.

Reading back a chainsaw defence to confirm a scumread on Tal, when the scumreading you is only a chainsaw if we assume you're right about Tal to begin with? This circular reasoning isn't just bad, its dishonest. IAVH is a hard scumread for me.

Can't pretend to agree with you Keria about IAVH.

[Political Clout]

Maduisha what makes you think the PR claim is not real, but also just a joke? Same goes to Starfire.
MikhailTal what was your motive behind that claim by the way
1. if you are real, you more or less outed your partner by the hotter/colder thing
2. if you are fake but town, someone cc's, you get voted and look bad
3. if you are scum, someone cc's you get voted, gj
The only good things that happen in this is
4. you are fake but town, nobody cc's, you tank the shot, you die
5. you are scum, they believe you
6. you live as real mason
the good moment in 5 is short-lived due to a inevitable cc
6 is really unlikely.
now, you've established that you here are PR hunting and not scumhunting
I wish I could vote you twice.
If this slot survives d1 and lives n1, I'm placing a heavy sr on Tal.
Screw that… Tal instantly gets a heavy sr from me from these two pages.

How's your Mason partner feeling about your gambit? You did discuss it with them (I hope). cough!

it was an intuitive sacrifice and i intend to prove i have sufficient compensation for it.

wow! I realised this post exists!
well nope, I don't believe your partner would let you do that
vote x3 (unofficial)

actually, no
I feel like this is PR baiting instead.
seems like AI more than NAI.

I don't really like how iamveryhappy ramps up suspicion in a series of posts when the situation was otherwise static. What leads this from ''seems alignment indicative'' to ''vote x3 (unofficial)'' Feels like trying to build a wagon more than learning. VOTE: Iamveryhappy

VOTE: starfire

[SmileyDude1]

Back from work, seems like a lot went down while I was gone.

[SmileyDude1]

let's start this game with a side-game of

hot

and

cold

. every other player gets one guess as to who my mason partner is today. It'll work like Guess Who - you can either guess the name, or state an observation as fact. the extremes listed in colour earlier are as specific as i'll get but i'll tell you if your guess is colder or warmer than the previous person's.

MikhailTal's slot is a mason.

Hot

.

Ok, Just now seeing this and can we not pls. This is objectively an anti-town play as you either give scum information about the setup and your partner if trueclaiming, or risk outing PRs if you're fake claiming.

[SmileyDude1]

@ ender I've just come back from a long hiatus. Lots of things confused me after coming back.

Are you saying you're gonna post every other day?

i just mean i will make an effort, despite being on a trip, to post at least once every other day and i can't guarantee more often than that until i'm back to my normal schedule. however, i am fairly likely to have more opportunities to post than once every other day.

Icebreaker question: How much experience do you guys have in Mafia

my experience with online mafia is about 20-something games played on this site from roughly 2009-2016. almost all were the newbie format at the time, which if I remember right, only included VT, cop, doc, mafia goon, and mafia roleblocker as possible roles. so the other roles possible in the current format are new to me.

i also played a good amount of offline mafia around a decade ago, but only with normal roles (VT, cop, doc, and mafia goons).

this is my first mafia game of any sort in roughly 7 years.

let's start this game with a side-game of

hot

and

cold

. every other player gets one guess as to who my mason partner is today. It'll work like Guess Who - you can either guess the name, or state an observation as fact. the extremes listed in colour earlier are as specific as i'll get but i'll tell you if your guess is colder or warmer than the previous person's.

MikhailTal's slot is a mason.

Hot

.

why are you claiming so early?

as far as i can tell there are only a couple of possibilities, but let me know if i've missed anything.
1. you're mafia false-claiming with a gambit to fish for town PRs to counter claim. i guess the motivation here would be to sacrifice yourself early to give your partner an advantage by outing a town power role that can then be night-killed early.
2. you're telling the truth. but this is unhelpful. by claiming now, you've ensured mafia know the exact setup from the very start of the game, which removes any worry they might have had for N1 about being blocked by doc or jailkeep, or identified by cop or tracker. and you've either guaranteed you'll be the N1 kill (because mafia would want to prioritize eliminating a confirmed-town slot and to remove town aligned roles that have the ability to talk privately any time), or you've given mafia the opportunity to potentially get two free kills by picking a random townie to kill N1 and then WIFOM you to death D2 about how come you're still alive as a confirmed-town slot.

neither of those options is helpful for town in any way i can come up with. even if you are confirmed town and don't get night-killed, you don't have any action available to you to gather any additional information. so whatever the case may be, unless you're able to convince me how this is beneficial to town, i'm not going to participate in this fishing expedition to guess your supposed partner.

and i'd encourage everyone to ignore this claim entirely for D1 and see how things go N1, and if anyone is a town power role that conflicts with him being mason please do not counter claim D1, because that will just ensure you're the kill N1 and we lose the benefit of your action.

This pretty much sums my feelings of the Mason situation right now. I agree it's best to ignore this claim unless Mikhail gives good reason to consider otherwise.

[SmileyDude1]

Oooh boy, we got an argument on our hands. This is going to be a pain to sort .

[SmileyDude1]

Upon a quick skim I think I agree with Keria on a lot of the IAVH/Starfire interaction. I think it's reasonable for Starfire to be suspicious of IAVH's push due to logic mentioned in Keria's 52, but I also believe that IAVH is making a genuine push on someone they believe is playing in a scummy manner. The argument didn't move the needle on either of them for me

[ender]

posting to remove my rvs vote since while i read through what happened since my last post.

UNVOTE: SmileyDude1

[iamveryhappy]

More of a bounty person myself <3

I am increasingly confident iavh thought they had a

free town elim

and is

panicking at the unexpected pushback

II'm really concerned on what you put there
yea, free town elim right.
this game is literally so lenient it doesn't even have plur on, instead it is defmaj
I'm not panicked. From my one and half year of mafia experience (where I learnt absolutely nothing woo) I'm ready to make changes, I'm ready for someone to do some weird shit about it. Looking at your reactions you went slightly too far, and protected a "bad claim". Keria on the other hand is more townie in their behaviour.

[iamveryhappy]

oh I was thinking we should basically ignore the role claim as a bit of RVS banter

starting from this post I've seen you're on the defense for a mason claim, for no reason. You seem to case me as 'pushing for an easy vote' but AT LEAST I'M USING MY VOTE (cough cough buys my vote)
Why ccan't the player bleing pushed defend themselvos? Why can't they react to it while youu try to defend them to death. A town claim wouldt have claimed so much later, earliest (without being on plur/ v-1) would have been d2. You've also changed your view from "RVS banter" to "bad claim". You're clearly defending them while consious of their alignment.
ggez

[ender]

okay, after doing iso's on everyone so far here's where my head is at. there are still several slots that lack much substantial input.

the main content so far after Tal's claim, has been the back and forth between iavh and starfire.

looking at iavh:
if he is scum, he would have a lot of motive to push for a Tal wagon whether Tal is actually a mason or if Tal is scum also. Assuming town!Tal, scum motivation would be to get rid of a town PR during the day so that N1 kill doesn't have to go toward that. Assuming scum!Tal, scum!iavh would have motivation to distance himself heavily from such a rash early false claim. that doesn't mean iavh can't be town and just find Tal's claim IA and scummy, I personally don't see the claim as AI right now, and i also am feeling like a D1 lynch of Tal is not town-motivated.

he also is quick to use his scum read on Tal to draw connections to starfire by claiming she's chainsaw defending Tal. i personally don't like trying to look for scum pairs before the identity of one of the scum is known. there's nothing wrong with looking for links between people but i'd say let's first focus on finding one scum, and then once we know who they are we can analyze their interactions with everyone else more closely.

looking at starfire:
she started off by reading Tal's claim as 'rvs banter' and 'not a play at all'. scum!starfire would not have motivation to write off the claim as nothing, unless it's a starfire/Tal pairing. she changed her mind from Tal's claim being 'rvs banter' to it being just a bad play that is NAI. since i agree that the claim is not necessarily AI I don't see this change of mind as scummy either. the remainder of her posts have been calling out iavh for trying to wagon Tal, with the assertion that he really started pushing after i made my post which she says served as the catalyst for iavh to push harder.

between the two of them if i had to pick one, i feel like iavh's play so far has more scum motivation, so he earns my vote for now. VOTE: iamveryhappy

@Political Clout your only post is just a vote. in a game where text is all we have to go on, posts that lack substance are unhelpful. please clarify why you found the post you quoted scummy enough to warrant your vote. and please give your thoughts on what has happened so far.

@Maduisha and @Wayward Son, what are your thoughts on the back and forth between iavh and Starfire? have you noticed anything from anyone that raises your suspicion?

[iamveryhappy]

Sooooo
I’m getting wagoned again! Woohoo!
And ender, wtf
I’m literally trying to solve for scum here and you’re thinking I’m scummy? Right. I’ve been the only one to even name a scum team, and what’s wrong with looking at interactions to start finding partners? I call bullshit on the vote there.

[iamveryhappy]

As I repeat, has anyone caught on that the one claiming mason isn’t anything to defend themselves while heavily relying on someone else to defend them? Note that both scum and town would be on the claim there. It’s just… not justified at all
Mason claim also stated that they with their partner “decided there was enough compensation or whatever”. Also calling bullshit on that. You just don’t have any compensation after all after I get voted, and if you are real you get shot and good job you lose a try hard this game and a PR d2
So I’ve decided that it’s just not worth it to claim like that and it’s just… bad. It’s not just a bad claim, it’s a terrible one. I’m ready to see the claim flip red or chicken out and go “I’m vt don’t get me”.

[iamveryhappy]

As I repeat, has anyone caught on that the one claiming mason isn’t anything to defend themselves while heavily relying on someone else to defend them? Note that both scum!me and town!me would be on the claim there. Scum, it’s a lhf, town, it’s a fake claim. It’s just… not justified at all
Mason claim also stated that they with their partner “decided there was enough compensation or whatever”. Also calling bullshit on that. You just don’t have any compensation after all after I get voted, and if you are real you get shot and good job you lose a try hard this game and a PR d2
So I’ve decided that it’s just not worth it to claim like that and it’s just… bad. It’s not just a bad claim, it’s a terrible one. I’m ready to see the claim flip red or chicken out and go “I’m vt don’t get me”.

Slight change to the post above

[iamveryhappy]

The vote just now was really bad btw
I’m sure mason claim gets on me for smth while I don’t like it I can’t change it. That leaves me at V-1. If I unfortunately die to the hammer or the nightkill vote any of the counter wagons that are occurring now, I’m sure both flip.
I’m talking about star and tal jsyk
I’ve settled my mind on being the lamb today for red flips tomorrow.

[iamveryhappy]

Here’s a copypasta of an overreaction to getting voted lol
Oh, my goodness! How dare you accuse me of being part of the mafia? That's preposterous! I can't believe you would make such a ludicrous claim. Do I look like someone who would be involved in organized crime? This is outrageous! I demand an immediate apology and a retraction of your statement. I will not stand for this defamation of character. I am an upstanding townie, and this false accusation is deeply hurtful. I will not rest until my name is cleared and justice is served. Prepare to face the consequences of your reckless words!

[ender]

As I repeat, has anyone caught on that the one claiming mason isn’t anything to defend themselves while heavily relying on someone else to defend them?

i don't think he's relying on starfire. i'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he hasn't had a chance to check the thread since his last post. the longer time goes on the less benefit of the doubt i'll give, but for now i'm not reading into him not posting again yet.

Note that both scum!me and town!me would be on the claim there. Scum, it’s a lhf, town, it’s a fake claim. It’s just… not justified at all

there is no reason town should elim Tal yet. again, you and i are reading his claim differently (you read it as scum, i just read it as anti-town, which isn't necessarily the same). not every anti-town action deserves an elimination. if he can't adequately explain what he's doing or if he does further anti-town stuff then i may be swayed toward him being scum. but as i said in my post above, an early mason claim like this comes across as much too risky a gambit for scum of his experience.

i'm not saying we don't keep an eye on Tal, i'm saying that if we elim him D1 over his claim and he is town (whether he's mason or VT), we gain exactly 0 new information, scum doesn't have to use their NK to get rid of a power role, and we start D2 in the same position we're in now, except with two fewer town roles.

if instead we spend today looking at other people, we force mafia to kill Tal during N1. I'm not saying that's a good position for us to be in, but i am of the opinion it's a better position for us to be in than what i described above.

so imo town!everyone should set aside his horrible decision to claim for D1 and we can revisit tomorrow if needed. by going so hard against Tal, all i see is scum motivation from you. that's the reason for my vote.

Mason claim also stated that they with their partner “decided there was enough compensation or whatever”. Also calling bullshit on that. You just don’t have any compensation after all after I get voted, and if you are real you get shot and good job you lose a try hard this game and a PR d2

my read of his post was that he hadn't consulted his alleged partner about his decision to claim. i don't know what he meant about compensation.

So I’ve decided that it’s just not worth it to claim like that and it’s just… bad. It’s not just a bad claim, it’s a terrible one. I’m ready to see the claim flip red or chicken out and go “I’m vt don’t get me”.

Slight change to the post above

you're 100% right, it's a terrible claim. it's a bad idea to try it as scum, and it's an even worse idea to do it as town. but i don't think we need focus on him (on account of his claim alone) D1 if he's going to likely be the N1 kill anyway.

The vote just now was really bad btw
I’m sure mason claim gets on me for smth while I don’t like it I can’t change it. That leaves me at V-1. If I unfortunately die to the hammer or the nightkill vote any of the counter wagons that are occurring now, I’m sure both flip.
I’m talking about star and tal jsyk

wait that's E-1? one sec, i did a tally as i was reading ISO's but i may have made a mistake.
UNVOTE:
just in case. it's not that i'm not happy with my vote of you, but i definitely don't want the day to end so soon, we still have over a week for discussion and we should use as much of it as we can.

@mod - can we get an official tally?

I’ve settled my mind on being the lamb today for red flips tomorrow.

save the AtE, your mind being settled has no bearing on my vote.

[ender]

ok by my tally, my vote would put iavh at E-2, but just in case i'm still misreading something i will hold off reinstating it until mod gives us the official tally since it's been 4 pages and plenty of room for user error on my part.

[iamveryhappy]

As I repeat, has anyone caught on that the one claiming mason isn’t anything to defend themselves while heavily relying on someone else to defend them?

i don't think he's relying on starfire.

i'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he hasn't had a chance to check the thread since his last post.

the longer time goes on the less benefit of the doubt i'll give, but for now i'm not reading into him not posting again yet.
-iavh note: wrong, Tal has posted in New York by the time my push started.

Note that both scum!me and town!me would be on the claim there. Scum, it’s a lhf, town, it’s a fake claim. It’s just… not justified at all

there is no reason town should elim Tal yet.

again, you and i are reading his claim differently (you read it as scum, i just read it as anti-town, which isn't necessarily the same). not every anti-town action deserves an elimination. if he can't adequately explain what he's doing or if he does further anti-town stuff then i may be swayed toward him being scum. but as i said in my post above, an early mason claim like this comes across as much too risky a gambit for scum of his experience.
-iavh note: it’s a plain sacrifice. You get nothing other than 1 or 2 innocent children who die first 2 nights. There is no sufficient compensation for that. T!mason wouldn’t do that, maybe some werewolf/goo variant in gi/gesti/ci/oi would do that kk
As I said the earliest claim is d2 where an innocent child (how I call mason after revealing) survives to elo stages.
To be honest judging by the hot cold thing I am absolutely sure there is no way town mason spews the other partner out d1 as well.

i'm not saying we don't keep an eye on Tal, i'm saying that if we elim him D1 over his claim and he is town (whether he's mason or VT), we gain exactly 0 new information, scum doesn't have to use their NK to get rid of a power role, and we start D2 in the same position we're in now, except with two fewer town roles.
-iavh note: I’m absolutely sure there’s no way mason claim is really mason. It’s just a great example of terrible fakeclaiming

if instead we spend today looking at other people, we force mafia to kill Tal during N1. I'm not saying that's a good position for us to be in, but i am of the opinion it's a better position for us to be in than what i described above.

so imo town!everyone should set aside his horrible decision to claim for D1 and we can revisit tomorrow if needed. by going so hard against Tal, all i see is scum motivation from you. that's the reason for my vote.

Mason claim also stated that they with their partner “decided there was enough compensation or whatever”. Also calling bullshit on that. You just don’t have any compensation after all after I get voted, and if you are real you get shot and good job you lose a try hard this game and a PR d2

my read of his post was that he hadn't consulted his alleged partner about his decision to claim. i don't know what he meant about compensation.
-iavh note: PRECISELY
Town mason would listen to partner. It’s just so weird to not listen to partner

So I’ve decided that it’s just not worth it to claim like that and it’s just… bad. It’s not just a bad claim, it’s a terrible one. I’m ready to see the claim flip red or chicken out and go “I’m vt don’t get me”.

Slight change to the post above

you're 100% right, it's a terrible claim. it's a bad idea to try it as scum, and it's an even worse idea to do it as town. but i don't think we need focus on him (on account of his claim alone) D1 if he's going to likely be the N1 kill anyway.

The vote just now was really bad btw
I’m sure mason claim gets on me for smth while I don’t like it I can’t change it. That leaves me at V-1. If I unfortunately die to the hammer or the nightkill vote any of the counter wagons that are occurring now, I’m sure both flip.
I’m talking about star and tal jsyk

wait that's E-1? one sec, i did a tally as i was reading ISO's but i may have made a mistake.
UNVOTE:
just in case. it's not that i'm not happy with my vote of you, but i definitely don't want the day to end so soon, we still have over a week for discussion and we should use as much of it as we can.

@mod - can we get an official tally?

I’ve settled my mind on being the lamb today for red flips tomorrow.

save the AtE, your mind being settled has no bearing on my vote.

[iamveryhappy]

Well
What can I say
I said after the one year world champion voted I’m going to be on e-1 and I’m scared of a qh from people. Chat mafia does that to people.

[iamveryhappy]

Watch the host be like what the fuck is town doing

[iamveryhappy]

Watch the host be like what the fuck is town doing

Absolutely nowhere
Scum is dominating the thread rn sad

[Political Clout]

oh I was thinking we should basically ignore the role claim as a bit of RVS banter

Why not ask for clarification instead of assuming and assigning motive to it. mikhail has basically made you play the game of mafia against yourself.

[Political Clout]

Actually, yeah it's probably trolling lol

My ASD brain has a hard time identifying humor online, sorry.

Why did you believe starfire? They have only presented that it was rvs. Saying it's rvs banter doesn't come close to an argument. You should always assume that this game is being played with ulterior motives the motive of scum and the motive of town. When someone makes a claim you should take it seriously mikhail could very well be a roleblocker or goon or could very well be town trying to draw the nk away from a pr. Don't just believe people's off handed comments.